Help me choose between two diamonds!

ebadevil · Aug 3, 2014

Hey everyone, I'm trying to choose between two diamonds. I've had the first one reserved for a while but recently stumbled onto another one that might be better. Both diamonds are from Blue Nile. I only have a picture of one right now but trying to get the pic of the second diamond right now. Let me know your thoughts!

DIAMOND #1:
Stock number LD03000885
Price $10,498
Bank wire price $10,341
Price per carat $6,520
Carat weight 1.61
Cut Ideal
Color I
Clarity VS1
Length/width ratio 1.01
Depth % 61.1%
Table % 58.0%
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Girdle Medium
Culet None
Fluorescence Strong
Measurements 7.52 x 7.56 x 4.61 mm

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD03000885
http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2146096998

DIAMOND #2:
Stock number LD04603770
Price $10,802
Bank wire price $10,640
Price per carat $6,547
Carat weight 1.65
Cut Ideal
Color I
Clarity VS1
Length/width ratio 1.00
Depth % 59.3%
Table % 60.0%
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick
Culet None
Fluorescence Strong
Measurements 7.70 x 7.73 x 4.58 mm

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD04603770
http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=5176666718

The first diamond looks to be a little cleaner, especially under the table but they are both rated VS1... I'm assuming the second diamond is eye clean as well. They are both HCA of 1.4. Diamond #1 is excellent on Fire & Scintillation and Very Good on Brightness and Spread. Diamond #2 however is excellent in everything except Scintillation, where it's Very Good. Still... same HCA scores... Diamond #1 seems to have a livelier HCA graph, but #2 is wider/shallower cut, and therefore, much larger looking for only $300 more. I don't know which one to pick. I'm hoping to have a picture of #2 so I can decide visually. For now, what's everyone's thoughts?

Thanks everyone for your help!

drk14 · Aug 3, 2014

ebadevil|1407110447|3725555 said:
Diamond #1 seems to have a livelier HCA graph, but #2 is wider/shallower cut, and therefore, much larger looking for only $300 more. I don't know which one to pick.

The difference in diameter is only 175 microns (which is a 2% difference in diameter, and slightly less than 5% difference in the projected area). For scale, if you imagine taking the first diamond and wrapping a human hair around the girdle, the resulting outline will have a size equivalent to that of the second diamond.

ebadevil · Aug 3, 2014

yea I guess you're right... less than 0.2 of a millimeter...

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

anyone else?

Gypsy · Aug 4, 2014

.2 is visible. Less than .2 is not. Did you ask to make sure neither stone is overblue since they both have strong blue? And yes, ALL VS1 stones are eyeclean.

I don't know if they would do this, but if it is possible to have a gemologist pull both and examine them side by side and recommend one that's what I'd do.

Lorelei · Aug 4, 2014

Hi Eba,

I can't access the reports to view them, if you could post the report numbers please, then I can look them up that way to view the critical angles etc, we are missing important info unfortunately without being able to view the reports, unless it's just me they aren't working for. Also you cannot judge whether a stone is eye clean or not from the clarity plot on the report, although in VS1 this point is moot. As Gypsy mentions, it would be best to have a gemologist check that neither of these are over blue from the strong blue fluorescence, this is unusual but best to check, maybe someone at BN can inspect them for you. Also, you would not notice any appreciable difference between the face up sizes of these diamonds even with direct unmounted comparison.

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

Hey gypsy, I'm working on getting all that info for diamond #2. The first one I've been looking at for a while, the second one I just saw so I still don't have much to go off besides the report. I'll ask them to take a look at both and see what they say, although it's probably a long shot from BN...

Lorelei,

here are the report numbers:
#1: 2146096998
#2: 5176666718

Here are also the angles/proportions if you are having trouble pulling the reports:

#1
table: 58
depth: 61.1
crown angle: 35.5
pavilion angle: 40.6
crown %: 15
pavilion %: 43

#2
table: 60
depth: 59.3
crown angle: 32.5
pavilion angle: 41
crown %: 12.5
pavilion %: 43.5

I'm not an expert on any of these but from reading it seems like the angles on #1 seems to work a little better? but the spread of #2 is nice... I'm confused, hopefully I'll get some more info on #2 from BN soon...

Lorelei · Aug 4, 2014

ebadevil|1407162566|3725792 said:
Hey gypsy, I'm working on getting all that info for diamond #2. The first one I've been looking at for a while, the second one I just saw so I still don't have much to go off besides the report. I'll ask them to take a look at both and see what they say, although it's probably a long shot from BN...

Lorelei,

here are the report numbers:
#1: 2146096998
#2: 5176666718

Here are also the angles/proportions if you are having trouble pulling the reports:

#1
table: 58
depth: 61.1
crown angle: 35.5
pavilion angle: 40.6
crown %: 15
pavilion %: 43

#2
table: 60
depth: 59.3
crown angle: 32.5
pavilion angle: 41
crown %: 12.5
pavilion %: 43.5

I'm not an expert on any of these but from reading it seems like the angles on #1 seems to work a little better? but the spread of #2 is nice... I'm confused, hopefully I'll get some more info on #2 from BN soon...

Thank you for the additional info. My preference leans towards the first diamond, yes, it is possible the angles of this diamond are preferable plus the table is a little smaller which is also a plus. The second stone could be a definite contender, but from the info we have, the first is my choice. The difference in spread between the two is incredibly minimal.

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

Yea, I plugged it into HCA and got the same score. Plugging it into the DCA gives diamond #2 slightly better scores, but what it doesn't seem to do is analyze fire/scintillation and #2 based on my limited knowledge should definitely lose out to diamond #1 in that department. Seems like the brilliance gain isn't much to justify the fire/scintillation loss...

I think at the end of the day, pictures will decide. If BN won't be able to produce a picture for #2, I really have no choice but to go with #1 just because I've at lest seen it to some degree... Also... it has a laser inscription, that's a nice little perk...

Come on BN, come through with a photo!

Lorelei · Aug 4, 2014

ebadevil|1407166361|3725816 said:
Yea, I plugged it into HCA and got the same score. Plugging it into the DCA gives diamond #2 slightly better scores, but what it doesn't seem to do is analyze fire/scintillation and #2 based on my limited knowledge should definitely lose out to diamond #1 in that department. Seems like the brilliance gain isn't much to justify the fire/scintillation loss...

I think at the end of the day, pictures will decide. If BN won't be able to produce a picture for #2, I really have no choice but to go with #1 just because I've at lest seen it to some degree... Also... it has a laser inscription, that's a nice little perk...

Come on BN, come through with a photo!

It's difficult to tell without seeing the stones but from the proportions, my estimate is that the first diamond could be a more balanced performer than the second, the second being more of a 60 60 could favour white light/ brilliance especially with that shallower crown. What's needed is an expert with the stones in hand to discuss the performance nuances with you as a photo won't really tell the story, that would be the best way to tell but overall, the first is my front runner.

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

so can you please explain to me this 60/60 diamond thing? I keep seeing the term thrown around but I don't really understand what the significance is. I get that it's 60/60 table/depth but why is that significant?

Lorelei · Aug 4, 2014

ebadevil|1407168013|3725830 said:
so can you please explain to me this 60/60 diamond thing? I keep seeing the term thrown around but I don't really understand what the significance is. I get that it's 60/60 table/depth but why is that significant?

By all means! The link below should help but I will just expound on that a little!

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond

Very basically, in the diamond trade going back some years in fact, the term ' 60 60' was used to describe a certain type of diamond, as you mention 60% depth / 60% table. Some felt that such stones would be good/ well cut on merit of the depth and table sizes but in fact, the critical angles and the overall cut precision can make or break these diamonds for cut performance, same as any other. You still need complimentary angles and good overall craftsmanship precision to result in a beautiful 60 60. These angles and other proportions might vary and allow a slightly different flavour between 60 60's if you will, but overall if you have good efficient angles, good cut precision, a well crafted 60 60 can be a very beautiful rock. Generally, a well cut 60 60 can favour brightness or white light depending on the angles, some might disagree but the above statement is not an absolute. Some prefer these diamonds, others stones with smaller tables, it depends on individual taste and perception.

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

interesting, do you know where I might be able to find those "recommended" angles that they're talking about? 41 degrees doesn't look that bad, a little leaky... basically it looks like a steeper pavilion angle radiates light more out rather than focusing it in the middle? can you see the effect of crown angle in these pictures?

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

OK!!! I got the picture of the second diamond... it looks good by me, but again, I'm not really an expert. The strange part to me is that black triangle in the inner circle at 9 o'clock... what can that be?

Diamond #1:

Diamond #2:

Thanks everyone!

ebadevil · Aug 4, 2014

so can anyone help me with the photos please? It's very difficult to judge cause they are set in such different lighting conditions and zoom levels...

Lorelei · Aug 5, 2014

ebadevil|1407170740|3725858 said:
interesting, do you know where I might be able to find those "recommended" angles that they're talking about? 41 degrees doesn't look that bad, a little leaky... basically it looks like a steeper pavilion angle radiates light more out rather than focusing it in the middle? can you see the effect of crown angle in these pictures?

Here is a cheat sheet I made some years ago with the help of expert John Pollard, this can help you get you within the ballpark of well cut diamonds. The angles can still apply even with 60 60 type stones and as for a 41 deg pavilion, bear in mind this angle can work if the crown angle is a good balance and the overall cut precision is good, for example, no wide swings in the angle average.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - own eyes, taste, preference, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

From expert John Pollard.

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

ebadevil · Aug 5, 2014

Gypsy · Aug 5, 2014

60/60 stones are not a bad choice. BUT you should get an idealscope on them. I think idealscopes are especially important with 60/60 stones.

Listen though, if the 60/60 stone isn't a signature line stone from BN.. .Wink at High Performance diamonds might be able to call in the 60/60 and the other one from Blue Nile for you. He would match the price. And he would get you an idealscope of each. I think it's worth calling him. He's a great guy and an excellent jeweler.

He can't call in their Signature Line. But the rest of their diamonds he usually can.

Maybe that's a solution for you?

ebadevil · Aug 6, 2014

thanks for the advice gypsy! I'll do that at lunch!

ebadevil · Aug 6, 2014

Winks seems to be MIA

Gypsy · Aug 6, 2014

Send him an email and give him a call .

Winks_Elf · Aug 6, 2014

ebadevil|1407346726|3727293 said:
Winks seems to be MIA

It's Wednesday, so he's on his way to Rotary.

ebadevil · Aug 6, 2014

hey it was nice talking to you! I sent Wink all this in an email but clearly he can also refer to this thread for more info, gypsy can probably explain it way better than I can lol

Gypsy · Aug 6, 2014

ebadevil|1407351138|3727337 said:
hey it was nice talking to you! I sent Wink all this in an email but clearly he can also refer to this thread for more info, gypsy can probably explain it way better than I can lol

Hiya Winks Elf, can you guys get either of these diamonds in for the OP. He is interested in them, but want to buy from a vendor who provides Idealscopes etc.

ebadevil · Aug 6, 2014

So turns out yesterday we did a blind test from the JA samples that I listed above with gf and she picked the 60/60 diamond 3 out of 3 times... so we decided to go with the 60/60. I've read that massive post on here from I forgot his name, the Cut Nut guy about shallow vs deep diamonds and it seems like the shallower stone will fit a bezel setting better. We're trying to go with a semi bezel setting so that's another one in the 60/60 column. Bottom line, I definitely want to make the 60/60 diamond work unless Wink comes back and tells me it's a terrible stone, in which case it'll have to get the 58/61

Gypsy · Aug 6, 2014

OK. That sounds good.

WinkHPD · Aug 6, 2014

Gypsy|1407277649|3726784 said:
60/60 stones are not a bad choice. BUT you should get an idealscope on them. I think idealscopes are especially important with 60/60 stones.

Listen though, if the 60/60 stone isn't a signature line stone from BN.. .Wink at High Performance diamonds might be able to call in the 60/60 and the other one from Blue Nile for you. He would match the price. And he would get you an idealscope of each. I think it's worth calling him. He's a great guy and an excellent jeweler.

He can't call in their Signature Line. But the rest of their diamonds he usually can.

Maybe that's a solution for you?

Thank you Gypsy for the strong recommendation.

I need to address this as I have had a couple of people that want me to bring in a stone from BN for them too.

When a stone is listed on BN, or any other site and it is not actually owned by them, it can often be found on many different sites and is in fact usually still available on the wholesale market. I, and thousands of other jewelers have complete access to those virtual diamonds up until the moment that they are sold and removed from the market.

In this case, both of these diamonds are marked as no longer available on BN, and neither is available on the wholesale market list maintained at Rap.net. I suspect that they have been sold, or are actually owned by BN who is holding them for a buyer, but I have no way to know.

I do NOT call the diamond in from Blue Nile. I can normally call in a diamond that may be showing on hundreds of sites and do the images for people, as can any of the jewelers that pay the subscription price for access to the diamonds available diamond data base.

It has been my experience that somewhere around 10% of the BN diamonds that people ask me to look at are owned by BN and thus not available on the market. The majority are available. That 10% is only an estimate based on my experience, they may own more, or less of a percent of the diamonds on their site. Some of those diamonds will be available from India or Israel, and those are much more difficult to bring in and return if not sold, so normally vendors will not bring them in to inspect and return.

I just wanted to make it clear that I was not sourcing diamonds from Blue Nile, but rather have access to many of the same diamonds that they have access to. I just do not list them on my site as it is not my normal market, but for those wishing to see more of the diamond before committing to it this is a service that many of us vendors on Pricescope are able to offer.

Wink

Gypsy · Aug 6, 2014

Sorry Wink. I did know that, and I phrased it poorly. Thank you for the clarification.

WinkHPD · Aug 6, 2014

I knew what you meant, but the phone calls I got told me that not every one did. I really do appreciate the shout out, it is always greatly appreciated.

Wink

ebadevil · Aug 6, 2014

Thanks for the help Wink! I really appreciate it!

Help me choose between two diamonds!

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