Engagement Diamond. Feather Issue?

[Tasarian]

Hi Everyone, this is my first post. I am ready to buy my diamond online from James Allen for my girlfriend. I have asked for a price scope and the ring is on hold. The only concern I have is the couple of feathers appearing on the ring. I have been assured it is eye clean. My question is should I be concerned about the ring breaking due to the feathers (GIA certificate attached)? I appreciate anyone''s expert opinion.
Thanks

 

[darren]

The feathers that are on the side can be covered by a prong if you would like. I would ask them to cover them and that should keep the diamond protected. I would ask though if any of those inclusions reach the surface of the stone.

 

[kenny]

Didn't someone just post that positioning a crack (aka feather) under a prong concentrates more impact exactly where you don't want it?

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Tasarian

Ask JA''s gemologist to look at it for you and advise, also check that the grade making cloud isn''t impacting brilliance.

 

[climbman]

Aren't the feathers setting the grade? Feather is the first listed inclusion, so isn't that how you know that it is the grade setter?

Also, with regards to whether the cracks / feathers reach the surface, there was a recently a LONG thread exactly about this. Not that I know anything, but the conclusion of that thread is that pretty much all feathers do reach the surface by definition, except in the relatively rare event that it is a feather / crack that developed internally around a crystal. Since that is not the case here, those feathers presumably reach the surface.

But related to this question, how often do feathers really lead to cracks? I am curious myself. Is this a serious concern, or a 1 in a 1,000 type of event?

 

[Stone-cold11]

What do you define as cracks since feather are cracks.

 

[climbman]

Fair point! I mean a more serious issue developing, whatever that may be. In fact, part of my question is, what can happen, and how likely is it?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/2/2009 10:13:06 AM
Author: climbman
Aren't the feathers setting the grade? Feather is the first listed inclusion, so isn't that how you know that it is the grade setter?

Also, with regards to whether the cracks / feathers reach the surface, there was a recently a LONG thread exactly about this. Not that I know anything, but the conclusion of that thread is that pretty much all feathers do reach the surface by definition, except in the relatively rare event that it is a feather / crack that developed internally around a crystal. Since that is not the case here, those feathers presumably reach the surface.

But related to this question, how often do feathers really lead to cracks? I am curious myself. Is this a serious concern, or a 1 in a 1,000 type of event?

A feather is a polite term for crack, however from what I understand enlargement or breakage is unusual if that is what you are asking, also much depends on the location of the feather and whether it reaches the surface etc.

Various scenarios are possible with ANY diamond concerning damage or breakage, sometimes a diamond can break if you hit it just right especially on a cleavage plane ( possible even with very high clarity stones), sometimes you can get a diamond chip or a chunk breaks off due to a blow. However to put this into perspective, to the best of my knowledge I do not believe insurance companies penalize owners of diamonds with feathers, so the best advice is to check carefully with a vendor and or appraiser any feather, wear with care and insure as always.

 

[strmrdr]

The fear of feathers has been way overblown lately.
There are millions of diamonds being worn every day with large feathers.
I know of one that broke, an i2 with a grade setting large feather.
The diamond took a hit and a large chunk broke off.
On the opposite side of the feather, the side with the feather was in perfect shape.
My feeling is that a hit that would cause damage to an area with a feather is going to take out the diamond anyway no matter where it was hit.

A good experienced gemologist can tell you how much of an issue they are.
Being open to the crown or when it compromises the girdle is when it can become the biggest issue in a RB.
In princess cuts a feather near a corner is a problem because it is already a weak point.
I bought a diamond with a feather and will do so again.
I will allow feathers in my diamonds I put my name on.

The main point is, have it checked and get it insured no matter if its an I2 or an IF.

 

[kenny]

Why pick a diamond with a crack when there are others without cracks?
I will leave the cracked diamonds for other people to buy, thank you very much.

When I''m paying thousands of dollars even a 0.0000001% increase in risk is not acceptable to me.

I''d let this subject go the day the industry stops using the word feather for cracks.
It''s deceptive.
That''s what really gets my goat.

This is my opinion.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/2/2009 11:07:05 AM
Author: kenny
Why pick a diamond with a crack when there are others without cracks?

I will leave the cracked diamonds for other people to buy, thank you very much.


When I''m paying thousands of dollars even a 0.0000001% increase in risk is not acceptable to me.


I''d let this subject go the day the industry stops using the word feather for cracks.

It''s deceptive.

That''s what really gets my goat.


This is my opinion.

Using that criteria you would never buy a diamond.
Any inclusion even the ones in a IF are more than 0.0000001%.
You can have your opinion and that is kewl but we also have to keep it real.
Studies have shown that black cars are involved in more accidents at night and that red cars get more traffic tickets.
Does that mean no one should buy a black or red car?

 

[glitterata]

I can''t find it now, but I read somewhere that flawless/high clarity diamonds are MORE likely to break if hit along a cleavage plane, because the molecules are arranged in such straight lines with nothing to break up the order. Diamonds with flaws are less likely to break because the flaws get in the way and break up the force of the blow. At least, that''s how I remember it. I hope an expert will confirm or refute this.

So Kenny, you should avoid high clarity diamonds because of the slightly elevated chance that they will break if struck.

 

[setell]

I''m fairly certain (from what I remember my prof said) that the chemical bonds for a perfect or near perfect diamond is extremely durable and not prone to break. I think you have it the other way around where lower clarity diamonds are prone to break as the chemical bond strength has been disturbed hence you no longer have that perfect super durable crystal. I’ll go home tonight and pull out my materials science text to clarify this or look for a inorganic chem journal article regarding the carbon-hydrogen bonding structural strengths in the diamond structure.

I personally am uncomfortable with feathers as a crack is a crack and I rather a cloud then a crack. I purposely excluded anything with a feather in it when I was diamond hunting. I can deal with a crystal in a crystal but I can’t deal with a feather.

 

[Tasarian]

Now I am confused

so is this ring more susceptible to breaking than one with no feathers? any thoughts on whether I should bypass on this one and go for something along these lines?
Appreciate the help

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1192354.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1248967.asp

Much thanks

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/2/2009 2:49:22 PM
Author: Tasarian
Now I am confused

so is this ring more susceptible to breaking than one with no feathers? any thoughts on whether I should bypass on this one and go for something along these lines?
Appreciate the help

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1192354.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1248967.asp

Much thanks

[/url] is the thread.

Also read this quoted from the thread from OldMiner one of our experts.

"One should keep in mind the harsh treatment a diamond goes through to become a faceted gemstone. After a diamond has been cut, it has proved itself to be pretty durable compared to many of the hazards when one wears it in a finished piece of jewelry. Still, diamond can be fractured or cleaved by accident, but it won't be a spontaneous breakage under any normal circumstances.
A feather, especially any sort of inclusion which opens on the surface is a weaker area of the diamond. If it is going to break, chip or cleave, such a weakened area is a potentially higher risk zone. In 40+ years, I have seen just a few diamonds which really seemed doomed to be readily broken in use and far fewer which actually broke. Many more diamond become chipped slightly around the girlde and/or abraded on the crown from years of harsh wear and improper storage rubbing other diamonds in moving jewelry cases. Few really suffer big, important damage in use.
Insurance covers such drastic loss anyway for nearly all such major losses. Such major losses are relatively rare.

If a consumer can avoid a diamond with inclusions which are open on the crown, especially those open on the table, they are doing the right thing. Many imperfect diamonds are inherently flawed with open blemishes. It is just part of the game at the low end.

A tiny feather, open or not, in a VS1 or VS2 is unlikely to evre be the reason for a future problem. I have seen no evidence of such a problem ever. Usually diamonds which fall apart had good reason to be weak due to thinness, shape, or obvious flaws which always were rather prominent."

 

[kenny]

I have a white car.

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

90+ % of feathers do not open, evan at 100x under a microscope you would not see an opening.

Also they rarely extend, but putting it under a prong IS more dangerous and the fact that it is listed first in the key to symbols means it is the grade setter and most likely a prong is not going to cover the whole feather. The cloud is either VS2 or higher and not affecting brilliance. All feathers, basically touch the surface.

What really bothers me is that it is plotted as a straight line and goes from crown to pavilion. This is usually an indication of a cleavage direction and a weak direction, especially since there are two other ones plotted in the sam e straight direction.

 

[Stone-cold11]

Date: 10/2/2009 5:27:11 PM
Author: 30yearsofdiamonds
90+ % of feathers do not open, evan at 100x under a microscope you would not see an opening.

Also they rarely extend, but putting it under a prong IS more dangerous and the fact that it is listed first in the key to symbols means it is the grade setter and most likely a prong is not going to cover the whole feather. The cloud is either VS2 or higher and not affecting brilliance. All feathers, basically touch the surface.

What really bothers me is that it is plotted as a straight line and goes from crown to pavilion. This is usually an indication of a cleavage direction and a weak direction, especially since there are two other ones plotted in the sam e straight direction.

Question on grade setting.

Is it possible for a inclusion plot to have more than 1 grade setter inclusion? For example, for an SI1 stone is it possible to have an SI1 size feather and SI1 cloud? I only know that they are listed by their significance, but what is the actual rule? Only SI1 and the rest are smaller, and how much more smaller will the clarity plot plot for? All the way to VVS1 inclusion or is there a cut off like maybe for an SI1 stone, the plot will only have SI1-VS1 level inclusions plotted?

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

I can only give you the rule at GIA. If two inclusions are grade setting and equal then the internal flaw is listed first. If the internal flaw is not listed first then it is definately a higher grade then the flaw (surface reaching} listed above it.

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

Also, to answer your question further, surface reaching inclusions more then two clarity grades higher then the final clarity will not be plotted. Internal inclusions two clarities higher will be plotted if there are less then then three plotted inclusions. In VS1 diamonds with VVS1 pinpoints, you will only see a comment if there are more then two. There is more but I don''t want to confuse anyone with too much info on the actually plotting rules.

BUT, in all cases VS1 internal clarity flaws are supposed to be ALWAYS plotted regardless of the clarity. So, in I1 stones all VS1 internal inclusions are expected to be plotted. If you have an SI2 with a feather listed first and xtal next, the feather is the grade setter, always.

 

[Stone-cold11]

Thanks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I agree with the moderate voices here - buy the stone and have the setter aware of the position of the feather and have it set just very close beside the feather and all will be fine.

 

[Tasarian]

So here is the ideal scope image of the ring above. I am still a little worried about the feathers though.
thoughts?
THanks

 

[Stone-cold11]

IS looks good.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/7/2009 10:45:45 AM
Author: Tasarian
So here is the ideal scope image of the ring above. I am still a little worried about the feathers though.
thoughts?
THanks

Its an excellent Idealscope image, as you are concerned with the feather check with the vendor''s gemologist for reassurance.

 

[Tasarian]

Hi here is the IS for another ring I was thinking of. Any comments on which one looks better? This or the one above?

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1192354.asp

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/8/2009 10:11:12 PM
Author: Tasarian
Hi here is the IS for another ring I was thinking of. Any comments on which one looks better? This or the one above?

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1192354.asp

This is an excellent image, check the grade setting cloud isn''t impacting performance, if not it could be an excellent choice.

 

[Tasarian]

Thanks Lorelei, do you think one diamond is better than the other. Should I be concerned with the black spot on the second diamond? And how do I check the cloud grading?

Thanks

 

[Stone-cold11]

Date: 10/9/2009 7:56:49 AM
Author: Tasarian

Thanks Lorelei, do you think one diamond is better than the other. Should I be concerned with the black spot on the second diamond? And how do I check the cloud grading?
Thanks

Ask the JA gemologist to take a look at it regarding the clouds and if it is eye-clean. Both IS looks good.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/9/2009 7:56:49 AM
Author: Tasarian

Thanks Lorelei, do you think one diamond is better than the other. Should I be concerned with the black spot on the second diamond? And how do I check the cloud grading?

Thanks

The gemologist as JA's name is Julianna I believe, so ask if she can look at the diamond and discuss whether it is eyeclean with you and also if the cloud has a negative impact, unlikely but best to check.

They are both beautiful diamonds so it could come down to your comfort level if the feather in the other one is a concern and which are eyeclean which JA will be able to tell you.