Does this price sound right?

[ileveraged]

Long-story short: my best friend's dad ("BFD") put me in contact with his jeweler for an engagement ring. He and his wife have used the jeweler for all of their jewelry needs for approximately 15 years. This jeweler also does all of the jewelry for all of BFD's business colleagues (white-collar professional, close-knit community), so the thought is that I can trust him.

After discussing it with him, we settled on a VVS2, 1.25 CT D. In the pictures I have seen of the specific diamond it is beautiful. We settled on approximately $13,300. I checked on WF and the price looks in the ballpark, just wanted to make sure that it sounds about right.

The entire transaction is done on trust -- for reasons not worth discussing, he is 3200 miles away so we had to do this long-distance. It's GIA-cert'd, and will come with the cert when I get it, but I don't have the details right now.

Does this price sound about right? Definitely understand there's only so much you all can do, but I guess I am just looking for validation because this has been a stressful experience. Thanks!

 

[EvangelineG]

You don't say anything about cut quality?

How well it is cut will be the most important factor in how well the diamond performs. This diamond may or may not stack up to the WF diamonds you are comparing it to, it all depends on cut.

Do you have the GIA certificate number? If so, plug the numbers into the HCA for a start (under the tools tab above).

 

[ileveraged]

So, when we were going over cut quality, the jeweler was very adamant that cut quality was more important than going up a grade -- I wanted to go to a VVS1 and/or a C and he was emphasizing that the cut quality of the one we decided on was top-notch and was more important considering the budget we were working with. I guess I can ask him for the details.

 

[telephone89]

If you mean C in colour, there are none - D is the highest colour. The price is pretty high, but a D VVS2 is also pretty high up there. If you post the GIA certificate you will likely get more accurate responses. Personally I would not pay that, but the colour and clarity are not as important to me.

These are the same price as the stone you are buying , all eye clean.
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3460843.htm 1.546 ct H SI1 $13,338
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3508604.htm 1.403 ct G VS2 $12,581
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3508565.htm 1.335 ct F VS2 $12,606

eta - Idk how you think that price is on par - the closest they have is this one http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3016683.htm which is $8k more than what you're paying. So either its a knockout of a deal, or its not a great cut.

 

[JDDN]

Hm, that price seems too good to be true. I'm very curious about the diamond and it's cut. It may be a steep deep and face up small for a 1.25 carat or some other factor that makes it such a good price. How old is the cert? Is this a pre-loved diamond? Is there fluorescence? Was this a stone he was trying to move out of his inventory?

I hope there is a solid return policy on the stone. Never buy a diamond sight unseen without a solid return policy, even if it's from a friend or friend of a friend. People have been burned b/c of these friendly "deals."

Call and ask for the GIA report number and post it. We can help you a lot more if we have the details on the stone.

 

[VRBeauty]

Will he share the GIA cert number with you? That should allow you to check the angles and proportions with the HCA, which is at least a first step in assessing its cut and performance.

 

[ileveraged]

Asked for report. The one thing is that it's a princess cut, which makes the price seem to drop significantly -- I can't find an equivalent on WF but there seems to be a disparity in price going from princess to round - a 1.08 round VS1 goes for $2k more than a 1.2 princess.

edit - http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut-loose-diamond-3189832.htm

That's a VS1 F princess with an ideal cut at approximately $8k; I'm not saying that the deal, if any, that I received is amazing but going up a grade and 2 colors for a similar carat would not tack on $10k to the price.

I'll let you know what happens. If the price is high but the stone looks good, that's all I care about. Just didn't know if it was wildly outrageous (like 200% of what it should be).

 

[Coralfish]

So it is a princess cut?

Are you able to return the diamond or is this a done deal? The price is for the diamond alone?

Cut is everything... not to everyone, but definitely to most PSers!

Let us know the GIA report number and the Princess cut experts will look at the facet diagram, the table and depth percentages.

This is just an elimination tool - everyone will tell you that with fancies, you've got to see the diamond - a close up picture, and tools such as ASET imagery are vital.

Review this guide carefully.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-princess

As an example, I would be sniffy about the cuts on these two examples below, and this is probably reflected in their pricing.
The reason is that the table and depth percentages are rather large, and rather similar - generally (disclaimer! Generally!) you will get a rather glassy looking stone with less fire. The advantage is the face up size is generally larger.

D VVS1 1.27 carats -

http://www.Adiamor.com/Diamonds/Results/D28165859
$8819

D VVS2 1.2 carats -
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.20-carat-d-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-131538
$9300

I second dropping at least down to F

Example:
(This looks 'nicer' to my eye, though it is on the deep side, so the face up size suffers)
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.20-carat-e-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-268390
$6900

And...

you have a whole world of Ideal cut diamonds out there, AGS graded for light performance. As per your example above. If you don't know the cut grade of the princess you have bought, you are not comparing apples to apples as ideal cut stones generally cost more to cut, as they are cut for performance and not weight - more of the rough is discarded in the process.

Visually, to most of us, F will look like D and VS1 will look like... without a 10x loupe, well, internally flawless to be honest, but of course I understand there may be cultural or romantic reasons for wanting a D VVS1 or VVS2.

This it outwith your Colour and Clarity specs, but as another example:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.21-carat-g-color-vs1-clarity-sku-369908

Then you have:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/1-22ct-f-vs1-solasfera-princess-cut-diamond.html

look on the Good Old Gold youtube channel for more detail about Solasfera Princess Cuts, and videos comparing them to their unbranded brethren. Here is an AGS ideal princess vs a Solasfera Princess (and another type of cut, the Brellia)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx_Sr8q5Z8s

Lots to think about.

Hopefully the princess cut experts will be along soon with more advice.

Edited to say - if you love it, go for it, as long as you are going in with your eyes wide open. I guess that is what RockyTalky is all about - making sure you get the diamond you want in the most informed manner possible.

Edited again to say - yes princesses are cheaper than rounds for the same specs as more of the octahedral crystal can be used in the princess due to the cut's prismatic shape. Less waste

 

[ileveraged]

Specs from report below.

You guys are making me nervous...it looked really pretty in numerous photos, but now I am being told it's not very good...really confused and dismayed. Was kind of excited. I haven't put down a deposit, but I know he started working on the ring yesterday or today. At the end of the day, I just want it to look beautiful.

PROPORTIONS

Depth 72.0 %
Table 76 %
Girdle Thin to Thick
Culet None
FINISH

Polish Very Good
Symmetry Good
FLUORESCENCE

Fluorescence None
CLARITY CHARACTERISTICS

Clarity Characteristics Crystal, Feather, Indented Natural, Natural, Extra Facet

 

[Coralfish]

Hi,

Please don't feel nervous or dismayed.

It's actually really great you are posting before rather than after the fact, no?

For me - I am not an expert on princesses as some of the members here are who will hopefully comment - the depth of your stone is less than its rather large table. I had a princess with similar specs and yes, it did not perform well (light return or fire) but the tradeoff was that it had a large face-up size. So it had the appearance of a slightly larger diamond. (Say, yours will look like a 1.3 carat stone more than a 1.25 carat stone, for instance).

I am also slightly concerned about the 'good' symmetry for the price you are paying.

Thin girdle, most probably not a problem at all but girdle thickness is something to watch for in princesses more than in other cuts - we will wait for an expert to chime in.

My honest opinion is that for the price you are paying you could get a stone of very similar if not the same specs, with ideal light performance.

What are your options from here? Could you work with the jeweller to source another stone. (You could run the numbers by us first. Or ask him to call in AGS Ideal stones. Or tell him a cert number and ask him to procure the stone). Or possibly tell him you would love to work with him in the future on another item etc, but for now you'd like to halt the process and think through your options (you could tell him you are wavering on the shape, for example). Or - ask him whether he is amenable to just making your setting (not sure though if that is a good idea).

 

[ileveraged]

Jeweler is likely shipping the thing to me Friday. The GIA website just gives me stats, no cut grade. Unsure what my options are from here - I suppose I can ask him if there is a return period, and see the thing for myself. Worst I can do is ask. The other stone we were discussing was 1.18, VS1, F. GIA report gives similar stats, the price for that one was $8800. Is that a decent deal?

Looking at pictures of it now, the vvs2 seems to catch light well; unsure about "fire" but whatever. Guess I'll find out tomorrow.

 

[Coralfish]

Hopefully my links below will work.

Here are James Allen diamonds with approx same depth and table percentages as your pick - 72 depth, 76 table.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/?CaratFrom=0.7&CaratTo=&Color=K,J,I,H,G,F,E,D&PriceFrom=&PriceTo=&ViewsOptions=Images&advancedParameter=Table&showAdvanced=show&Polish=&Symmetry=&Lab=&Flour=&DepthFrom=71.9&DepthTo=72.5&TableFrom=75.9&TableTo=76.5

See how they all have a similar sort of feel? See what happens when you rotate the images - or what doesn't happen?

Now look at all the ideal princess cuts on the same website.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/?CaratFrom=0.7&CaratTo=&Color=K,J,I,H,G,F,E,D&Cut=TrueHearts&PriceFrom=&PriceTo=&ViewsOptions=Images&advancedParameter=Table&showAdvanced=show&Polish=&Symmetry=&Lab=&Flour=&DepthFrom=45&DepthTo=80&TableFrom=50&TableTo=83

There is a bit more going on personality-wise, do you agree with me? Maybe you don't - like I say the former diamonds have the benefit of a slightly larger spread, or face-up size. There is always a trade-off.

At the end of the day it is up to you, we are just here to inform you. Go with your gut, and don't let us, or your jeweller, push you to do one thing or another. I know you feel obligated to him but it is a lot of your hard-earned money and it will be worn and enjoyed for a lot of years. Someone - I think it was Wink on here - sorry if it wasn't! - said (paraphasing badly as can't quite remember) that if you enjoy a well-cut diamond say 10% more than an averagely cut diamond, per day, (actually it'll be more than that from experience!) it adds up over your whole period of enjoyment of your diamond ... um, quite a lot. Sorry I've made a complete hash of that, apologies to all I have misquoted, but you get the general gist!

 

[Coralfish]

Sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted my reply. No worries, just do what feels right. Maybe drop him a line before he ships it saying you'd just like to clarify the return policy if he doesn't mind, etc.

 

[Coralfish]

Hi again, just saw your edit re. the F VS1.

I think going down to F and VS1 will be materially (to the eye, not the wallet!) the same as a D VVS1 in hand.

But the GIA as you mention unfortunately does not grade cut.

The things to look for in a GIA cert are the table and depth percentages. Then the facet map (more for diamond nerds when it comes to princesses in particular, as matter of personal taste, vs being a central factor of say a cushion-cut). Then seller tools such as the ASET to gauge light return. Before any of those things ideally we use our eyes, and ideally we have a selection of stones with varying (tables, depths, weights, colours) to gauge our own personal taste in the diamond.

Where that's not possible, the AGS Ideal princesses offer a safe option. Perhaps he has access to those?

Did you have any opinions on the Solasfera. He may be able to get one of those if you liked it.

 

[Coralfish]

Hopefully this will show why the ASET is so important. The cut stats never tell the whole story with fancies...

ASETS at 6:00, before that you can see the fellas under normal light, then dim/amped spotlighting etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJFOumVh_h0

 

[solgen]

Wide variance in girdle thickness is not a good sign and can go hand in hand with marginal symmetry which they'll list as good. D VVS1 is overkill but if custom or wants warrant it then so be it. Do you even know how many chevrons the stone has? Personally since AGS defined Ideal proportions I would stick to finding one certed by them. If you have an ASET you could also look at GIA certed ones but you'll probably have to look at quite a few of them.

In the end if you and your fiance are happy with the ring then that's all that really matters. Sure you might have paid more or the cut might not be the best but ignorance is bliss so as long as it looks pretty to you then forget the rest.

 

[ileveraged]

Wide variance in girdle thickness is not a good sign and can go hand in hand with marginal symmetry which they'll list as good. D VVS1 is overkill but if custom or wants warrant it then so be it. Do you even know how many chevrons the stone has? Personally since AGS defined Ideal proportions I would stick to finding one certed by them. If you have an ASET you could also look at GIA certed ones but you'll probably have to look at quite a few of them.

In the end if you and your fiance are happy with the ring then that's all that really matters. Sure you might have paid more or the cut might not be the best but ignorance is bliss so as long as it looks pretty to you then forget the rest.

Just looked up the VS1 F; has very similar stats. 71/75, 1.18, VG polish, good symmetry. Priced at $8800. I've gone through the stages of frustration, just need a straight opinion now -- am I getting fleeced? Kind of need to understand what kind of tone I need to take with the jeweler, i.e., whether I need to see why he thinks these two are really good or whether I need to move on.

Thanks.

 

[Coralfish]

Hi

Fleeced is probably the wrong word and way to go about thinking about it.

He is probably a bricks and mortar store, dealing with high income customers who are happy to choose from one or two stones, and to take his word for his opinion on cut. And his opinion may be what he knows - cut evaluation is 'new' (past 10-15 years?) so he may simply be completely out of the loop.

Maybe he is 'fleecing' you - just wants to make the sale and move on, with a relatively minimal amount of work (offering you only 2 stones) and a high profit margin (did you see the D VVS1 adiamor stone I posted above? - similar cut problem, but bigger weight and higher clarity grade, and 5k cheaper...) and taking advantage of the slight reverence you have for him, knowing him as you do through a friend's father - but to be fair to him, b & m retailers operate with different constraints, paying more overheads such as rent and CSAs, only able to order x amount of stones on memo at a time, etc. As I said perhaps he is uneducated about cut grades - perhaps that's wilful ignorance, but perhaps he just hasn't needed to as his client base is so undemanding.

That said, would I settle for either of those stones, at those prices - no.

If you tell him you've been educated wrt cut grades and you'd like him to call in some AGS Ideals, how would that go down?
Talk to him about the table/depth ratio?
But then if he calls in said stones and tacks on a huge markup compared to what you could achieve via Whiteflash, JA or GoG how will you feel if you could have got more carat weight for the same price?

That's not to say there isn't added value in his service - I don't know. If he charges a bit more than the above retailers, there may be, to you and your intended, value in the sort-of-family connection, and the fact he does have a B & M store that although you say's some distance away is local and well-known to some people you are close to - intangibles you may feel are worth paying an extra 10% for. But of course there's a limit to how much extra that's actually worth - only you can decipher that.

Tell us what your setting (for the diamond) is and we can also check to see if someone else can make it just as well.

Hopefully if you go through my previous posts again it'll give you a good layout of what to expect regarding pricing and cut.

 

[dontaskme]

Man this is going to get super messy, I wonder why the push to use this jeweler if you weren't guaranteed a great deal?

I think D color is a waste unless you're a purist, same with super high clarity.

 

[ileveraged]

Setting is as simple as can be, white gold. Quoted at approx. $475. The push for the jeweler is that this was someone who deals with a very high income client base, and given that my fiance and I similarly earn excellent livelihoods, he could find a new longterm client. I didn't want to bother with any of this -- the entire point was that this was someone that I could trust.

Now, I'm bothering with it because $8,000/13,000 is a lot of money, and my soon-to-be fiance is going to wear the thing on her hand all the time. Because the setting is simple, the diamond stands alone and is doing the heavy lifting, and because I had really bad experiences with two online wholesalers and an in-town wholesaler, my thought was to get a referral for someone I could trust.

Regardless, I'll talk to the fellow tomorrow and try to understand where he's coming from.

 

[Coralfish]

Just a heads up - anyone calling themselves a wholesaler of diamonds, and claiming to deal with consumers... run, don't walk!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Rule #1...Never to buy diamonds from friend of a friend whose uncle is in the diamond wholesale business.

 

[rubybeth]

Honestly, I would return it ASAP. We can help you pay less, get a nicer stone, and have no doubts that you are paying what the stone is worth. These friend/family deals never seem to work out positively. We've all read many similar stories, and it usually ends with bad feelings (you're not getting a good deal, they're exploiting a relationship for financial gain). I'd suggest ordering up an ACA from Whiteflash or True Hearts princess from James Allen or an AGS ideal from Good Old Gold, and compare them side by side for yourself. I think you'll see the difference. Cut is everything, and a lower color and clarity could face up whiter/brighter than this D color you're purchasing from this "wholesaler" (misnomer if he's dealing with customers).

View this video, please: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxJkQFYqtAY

 

[JDDN]

Okay, I didn't realize it was a princess cut that you're buying. That changes everything! $13,300 seems very over-priced for what you've stated the diamond to be. How can this be a deal??

Here's an E, VVS2 at 1.51 carats for $13,748 on Brian Gavin's website. It'a virtual stone (not in-house inventory) but I know they can help pick out a winner out of their virtual inventory. And for a stone with your specs it was around $9000. Not sure where he's coming up with that price!!

This arrangement doesn't feel so good to me. I would have him explain the pricing and/or kindly thank him for his time and tell him you've decided you'd like to keep looking at more options. You can tell him that you're doing your due diligence since it's a lot of money and you just need more time for the process. That is perfectly reasonable and you don't have to feel badly for wanting more time to decide what makes sense for you.


http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.510-e-vvs2-princess-diamond-gia-2907914di

 

[egemnoel]

Have a look at this Crafted By Infinity, slightly smaller almost half the price of the others and you are sure to have a stone cut to perfection.

Also backed up by the vendor 100% upgrade policy and 80% buy back.

http://highperformancediamonds.com/shop/diamonds/HPD5884/?shop=yes

 

[solgen]

Given the price and cut of that diamond I do have to say you are getting fleeced. Especially when people have posted several diamonds that are much lower in price or much better in cut and carat size for the same price. If you can back out please do so.

 

[ileveraged]

Backed out. He was really understanding. We've changed to a VS1 D 1.33. Price is a lot lower, too (A LOT). The only thing I am concerned about is the "Cloud" characteristic -- is that an issue?

Depth 70.1 %
Table 70 %
Girdle Slightly Thick
Culet None
FINISH

Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
FLUORESCENCE

Fluorescence None
CLARITY CHARACTERISTICS

Clarity Characteristics Crystal, Cloud

 

[Coralfish]

Backed out. He was really understanding. We've changed to a VS1 D 1.33. Price is a lot lower, too (A LOT). The only thing I am concerned about is the "Cloud" characteristic -- is that an issue?

Depth 70.1 %
Table 70 %
Girdle Slightly Thick
Culet None
FINISH

Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
FLUORESCENCE

Fluorescence None
CLARITY CHARACTERISTICS

Clarity Characteristics Crystal, Cloud

Hi

With the greatest respect, you're back to square one. Reread this thread - to choose a fancy cut, including a princess, safely, you need to reference the cut chart in my first reply

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-princess

With ASET images which will tell you light return. If you're not sure what I mean reference the youtube Good Old Gold video I linked to that had three princess cuts with ASET images at 6:00.

If you can't get ASET images, go with an AGS Ideal Princess cut. A few very good candidates have been posted above.

Otherwise you're just flying blind. I got from your posts you value a well-cut, quality diamond, not just a good price per carat. You have virtually no way of knowing what you'll end up with without the tools suggested. A lot of information is on this thread if you pick through it again in detail.

 

[DeBeersorDeSoda]

I personally wouldn't do business with him. Online retailers really aren't as bad as they seem. The ones I worked with (James allen and Whiteflash) were both extremely concerned about answering my questions and helping me to make an effective cost efficient choice. Give them a try!

 

[ileveraged]

Backed out. He was really understanding. We've changed to a VS1 D 1.33. Price is a lot lower, too (A LOT). The only thing I am concerned about is the "Cloud" characteristic -- is that an issue?

Depth 70.1 %
Table 70 %
Girdle Slightly Thick
Culet None
FINISH

Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
FLUORESCENCE

Fluorescence None
CLARITY CHARACTERISTICS

Clarity Characteristics Crystal, Cloud

Hi

With the greatest respect, you're back to square one. Reread this thread - to choose a fancy cut, including a princess, safely, you need to reference the cut chart in my first reply

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-princess

With ASET images which will tell you light return. If you're not sure what I mean reference the youtube Good Old Gold video I linked to that had three princess cuts with ASET images at 6:00.

If you can't get ASET images, go with an AGS Ideal Princess cut. A few very good candidates have been posted above.

Otherwise you're just flying blind. I got from your posts you value a well-cut, quality diamond, not just a good price per carat. You have virtually no way of knowing what you'll end up with without the tools suggested. A lot of information is on this thread if you pick through it again in detail.

Coral, I did reference your chart. The diamond with the specs I want doesn't exist with the online retailers that are frequently cited here. I've checked James Allen, Good Old Gold, and Whiteflash. James Allen had everything, but the carat was too large and the price was way out of reach as a result. Good Old Gold had something near what I am already considering, but it was .1 carats larger and F color, and approximately 5% more in price, although that's not a deal breaker. Whiteflash had one (F color grade, but ok) and while the table is comparable to what I am looking at now, the depth sucks.

He's going to check the stone himself to see its light performance and then mail it to me to see for myself. I'll check out its light performance and see how I like it.