confused boyfriend needs help

[volabroad]

I've been reading through the forums and it has been eye opening. I went to a regional jeweler yesterday and found a brilliant round diamond, I1 clarity, G color, 1.09 carats for $3,500. When I search on the internet, these diamonds are usually around $2,500.


The only thing I can figure out is that the cuts are different. I don't have the specs on the jeweler's diamond, but some of the $2,500 diamonds are poor cuts. The jeweler said all of his were ideal/excellent.

I kept looking. I found a diamond on the internet with the following:

Color: G
Shape: Brilliant Round
Clarity: SI2
Carats: 1.05
Depth: 61.8
Table: 55
Crown: 31.6
Pav: 40.7
Ideal Polish and Symmetry.
Proportions: 6.56 x 6.63 x 4.07
Price: About $4,400.

Is this a good deal? Can I find ideal/excellent cuts on the internet, or is that why the prices are higher at the local/regional chains?

I need a 1 carat diamond. I am willing to sacrafice clarity for better color and cut. But I am a little leary of the I1 clarity. I could almost see the inclusions with my eye -- but it still looked nice. Should I1 scare me off?

I am just a guy looking to get a nice ring for his girlfriend. I'm going to drop another $1k+ on the ring itself (she wants something with multiple stones and is unique) so my diamond is going to be a little cheaper. Any candid advice would be helpful.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Hi,

The diamond you picked out scores nicely on the HCA, so it could be a great stone. I'm sure others with more experience can give you better advice, but one thing I'd look into is the inclusions on this stone. Make sure it's eye clean. Call or e-mail the vendor for a plot map of the inclusions and also ask about how obvious the inclusions are.

Chain and regional stores overcharge, simply stated. You will flat out get a better deal on the internet because here you can find ideally cut stones and much better ones for a better price. Just because the stone you looked at was more expensive, doesn't mean it's a better cut. In fact, it could easily be much lower quality of cut than what you'd find here.

If you want a candid opinion. . .I'd say do lots of research here on this site, read as much as possible, including the tutorial on the www.goodoldgold.com website AND buy from a reputable internet vendor. You'll get a much better stone for your dollar. Regional stores WILL rip you off. We bought my stone through a chain B&M and my stone is AMAZING, but we paid nearly twice what an internet vendor would have charged us!

Michelle

 

[valeria101]

WOW, there is alot of work left to be done here... about 1h of reading, and an online buy

First of all, why does th jeweler say that his diamond is "ideal" cut? This does not refer to polish and symetry alone: but to the capacity of the stone to reflect light (optical performance). This is discussed in some detail both in the tutorial of this site and, with more detail, on another website: GodOldGold.

Prices... interent sellers have very aggressive pricing compared to traditional shops: why? Because they can afford it. Also, you are more likely to find a well cut diamond online - after all, internet sellers must sell information about stones first, and diamonds after. So you will find a tremendous lot of info on cut, color and clarity. Of course, there is some extra cost for stones hand-picked by sellers for their optical performance, and there will be a premium for the best cuts: but even so, you can still either beat B&M prices or get better quality (esp. cut quality).

Surely, it is quite easy for anyone to say "this is an ideal cut diamond". However, it is rather hard to demonstrate this. The reference above should help.

And yeah, you can surely strech your budget online; the drop of B&M premium will likely save you some without changinf the grading of your stone. Chaces are you will get something bigger and better looking. (next post for examples...)

 

[Giangi]

Hello!!

First off, that G/SI 2 is NOT ideal. The crown is waaaay too shallow. It may be a nice performer, but I wouldn't call it ideal. Also, it's not a bargain.
Sencond, I 1's can be nice, but go with one only if you don't have any other choice.

In your price range, I found quite a few interesting stones:
www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com
13 1740610 1.01 J SI1 GIA $3,028 61.9 58 VG VG None 6.52x6.44x4.01

14 2114178 1.03 I SI2 GIA $3,039 61.6 57 VG EX None 6.47x6.51x4.00

15 2098427 1.05 I SI2 GIA $3,051 60.2 57 EX VG None 6.63x6.69x4.01

16 2039308 1.01 J SI2 GIA $3,054 61.8 58 VG VG Faint 6.41x6.46x3.98

17 1959507 1.06 J SI2 GIA $3,062 61.1 58 VG VG None

21 2148737 1.00 H SI2 AGS $3,209 60.8 57 VG VG None 6.50x6.46x3.93

22 1944373 1.07 J VS2 GIA $3,233 61 58 VG VG None 6.58x6.63x4.03

23 1906894 1.06 J SI2 GIA $2,889 59.5 60 EX GD None 6.56x6.66x3.93

24 1844406 1.00 J SI1 GIA $2,905 62.3 58 VG GD None 6.35x6.43x3.98

25 1886061 1.00 J SI1 GIA $2,905 62.8 59 VG GD None 6.32x6.36x3.98

23 1140452 1.00 H SI2 AGS $3,310 61.2 56 EX EX Faint 6.52x6.45x3.97

24 2114176 1.02 H SI2 GIA $3,376 61.4 56 EX VG None 6.48x6.52x3.99

They are all SI 2 or higher and J or better. On such nicely cut stones J faces up pretty white. The prices are not higher than $3.5K, like that G/I 1, but you're getting higer grades and a reputable grading report. Who tells you that the 1.09 is not actually an I/I 2?

If you're willing to go to $3.7-3.8K, you can get a J/SI 2 superideal H&A. Not bad!

Otherwise, I'd suggest dropping to a nice 0.80-0.90ct diamond. With $3K you can get a 0.80 in G/SI 1 quality as well as a 0.9x in the G/SI 2 range.

 

[valeria101]

"Next post for example"... right

You may want to spend more than 5 min on this, but this much was needed to find a bunch of G-SI2 in your price range. While the measures needed for as little as a HCA score did not pop up, these sellers will probably be able to provide extra data on cut on request. There were a couple of I1 rings bought recently here, but opting for "eye visible inclusions" is not a choice easy to impose on someone. On the other hand, SI2 has good chances to be eye clean face-up.
It seems that you are looking for a top white stone: and surely G fits the bill while J needs some excuses (if not all that many) to qualify. However, oly few uyers may argue that H-I grades are not white enough esp. in 1 ct stones. So why hot a H-SI1 ? This sounds like a better balanced choice.

All in all: I would not put money down on the I1 before having investigated a couple of eye clean Gs from say Whiteflash. There are quite a few EGL-certed stones listed by them, and these stones should at least come with those HCA data specified and only a phone call away.

 

[shurikt]

Hey Volabroad,




You found us!




Definitely take your time and learn as much as possible before giving money to anybody, whether Internet retailer or local jeweler. It's possible to get excellent diamonds and excellent service from both, you just have to be a patient, well-informed consumer. (And you should invest in the services of a knowledgable, reputable appraiser.)




Some Internet retailers have discovered that there is a higher standard to which consumers hold them. This is probably because of the anonymous nature of the medium, and that consumers are extra wary of online scam artists. If you walk into a local jewelery store, you can look at a diamond through a loupe, and fondle the goods in your hot little hands. On the Internet, you can look at an image (which may or may not be the actual diamond you're considering!) So what some online retailers have done is provide quantitative data about the diamonds they have for sale: Sarin reports, Firescope/Brilliancescope images, etc. Most local jewelers aren't providing this data yet, so it can be very difficult to compare diamonds between the twne one end, you have the actual goods to look at, on the other, you have 30 pages of printouts.




What makes the problem even more difficult, is that no two cut diamonds are identical. Just like snowflakes. So no matter what you're looking at, you can't really make a good one-to-one price comparison.




That said, here's my advice about choosing a diamond. Some on the board will disagree, but that's why we love each other so much.

1. Determine your price range. Set yourself a max number and don't exceed it. A while back, someone (probably Mara
   
   ) posted a poll that indicated that most people exceed their price range. Salespeople love that. I find it sad (but slightly sweet).
   
2. Rank and bound your selection criteria. Put these in order and set lower and/or upper bounds. This is where Pricescopers will love to help you. For example.
   
   • Carat weight
     
   • Color
     
   • Clarity ranking
     
   • Cut parameters: HCA score, symmetry, H&A, Brilliancescope, Idealscope images, etc.
     
   • Make/Model: 8-Star, Tiffany, Cartier, Unbranded, etc.
3. Look at a bunch of diamonds. Now that you've reduced the universe, look at the diamonds fit into your criteria. Once you've done this, you will find only a few that pop out!
   
4. Send your best candidate to your appraiser. Buying the first diamond is scary. Once your appraiser signs off on it, you feel a lot better about your decision. I promise.
   
5. Enjoy the process.

For me, I set a price range of $6000, setting included. It took me so long to find the right diamond, however, that I had managed to save an additional $2000 by the time I found the right stone. My parameters were, in this order:

1. Carat weight: no less than 0.95.
   
2. Cut (Round brilliant):
   
   1. Superideal (very little light leakage, excellent HCA score, symmetrical)
      
   2. Not retaining girdle weight
      
   3. H&A
3. Color: H or better
   
4. Clarity: Eye-clean SI-1 or better
   
5. Make/Model: No preference

Here's what I ended up with.

 

[aljdewey]

Hi, Vola: A quick question.....when you say you need a 1 ct, do you mean you need it to look as big as a one carat stone on her hand or on paper? There's a difference.




If you go to the maul and buy a 1 ct stone, it will likely have a diameter of about 6.25-6.30mm. Why? Because most mall stones are poorly cut and carry extra weight in the girdle/pavilion, so they are smaller to the eye than a well-cut 1 ct. stone should be. A really well-cut 1 ct. stone runs close to 6.50 mm.




So, if your concern is making sure the diamond is as "big" as a 1 ct stone on her hand, then you can safely buy a well-cut .90-.95 stone. It will save you the "premium" on 1 ct stones, and it WILL BE every bit as big as the 1 ct. stones her friends are wearing from the mall. In fact, it will *look* even bigger because it will have more sparkle.




If it has to say 1 ct. on paper, then I'd suggest going H/I, SI1 or SI2 route and work with a vendor online that has stones in his physical possession so he can tell you about the inclusions.




http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-13013777

 

[volabroad]

Thanks. I was not aware of this.

I can tell the size of the girdle, by looking at the dimensions and knowing the weight, correct? On a GIA report, would a 6.50mm stone under 1 ct. show a "thin" or "medium" girdle?

Also, should I have an internet diamond shipped to me, then take it to a local appraiser? Is that the best way?

 

[volabroad]

What are the ideal measurements for a .9 - .95 ct diamond? It must be a little less than 6.50mm, correct?

 

[Patty]

volabroad, someone recently asked about the diameter of a .93 ct stone and the reply was that it should be about 6.4 mms. I remember this because I have a .93 ct diamond with a deep cut that is only 6.0-6.1 mms.

As for the girdle, others know more than me, but I think an ideal girdle should be medium, or slightly thin to slightly thick.

 

[mdx]

Hey Volabrad

I like this stone. I recon it will look pretty good mounted. The very good leakage performance is a real plus.
This Diamcalc test is assuming a medium girdle.
Check out the SI2 though; make sure its eye clean.
Price seems a bit high; you could do better with an internet vendor

Johan
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd

 

[mdx]

Sorry Volabrad
I forgot to mention which diamond
The diamond I am talking about is the one you found on the net wiyh theses numbers
Color: G
Shape: Brilliant Round
Clarity: SI2
Carats: 1.05
Depth: 61.8
Table: 55
Crown: 31.6
Pav: 40.7
Ideal Polish and Symmetry.
Proportions: 6.56 x 6.63 x 4.07
Price: About $4,400.

Johan

 

[aljdewey]

I honestly don't care for the numbers on that diamond because the crown angle is SOOOOOOOOOO shallow.




What visual affect will that have on the diamond? More white light (brilliance) but severly diminished fire (colored light)......I have to say that it's the fire in a diamond that appeals to me.




I think there are some more balanced options in his price range where Vola wouldn't have to sacrifice that much on the crown angle.

 

[mdx]

Hi aljdewey
While a crown angle of 31.6 may sound a bit shallow, I believe that would apply more to the shallower pavilion angles ( below 40.5). A pavilion angle of 40.7 actually has good range of optimum crown angle possibilities.

I think you will find that both the Fire and Scintillation will still be pretty good with this combination.

Johan

 

[Stephan]

Yes, aljdewey, Johan seems to be right.
Look at the HCA.
But why is the light return VG and the fire EX when this diamond is a 1.3 B.I.C. ???

 

[aljdewey]

I get what you guys are saying, but I'd want to have someone see the stone personally. As we all know, numbers are great for weeding out likely poor performers, but not for conclusively verifying strong performance.




However, I will say that the numbers would also seem to support my contention - this stone ranks as a BIC......it's focused on brilliance. It may have ex fire for a brilliant stone, but may have weak fire compared to TICs.




Again, I'm not saying the stone might not be beautiful....I'm sure it is. I'm just saying that the VERY shallow crown sounds an alarm in my head as something that needs to be investigated further relative to the stone's performance. If this were the only potential option, it would be silly not to consider it. But again, I think he can get a much better balance for the same money, and if he can, why not do so?

 

[valeria101]

WHOA! Will this thread make someone LESS CONFUSED?

Ok, that stone is a wooper in terms of any cut quality interpretation (and this kind-a covers all of Pricescope's) using numbers rather than the piece itself.

About BIC and FIC and such, well, these are fine lines indeed given that most commercial cut diamonds would not light a candle to that gem to start with.

The question rised above about wether there is a corelation between the three light return parameters and the BIC / FIC range as marked on the HCA: I guess this is a theoretical Q, surely appropriate for the makers of HCA. As far as I know, both BIC nad FIC are subsets of the set of cut parameters which deliver excellent light return to start with. Given the corelation between light return, fire and scintillation, it seems to me that while it is possible to get a stone with low white light return and high Scintillation and Fire, it is not likely to get one with high white light return and poor on the other categories. (~ i.e. if there is not enough light reflected back through the crown, one ain't gonna see no fire AND ~since there are no Buff-top, flat-head diamonds, even a crown without great talents for fire and scintillation is going to put up a show). Of course, I am awaiting correction on this.

However, THAT diamond above looks like a nice find indeed

, rather than a grading error

 

[elmo]

I agree with Al. I guess it comes down to both what it costs and how it looks...if priced like a "traditional ideal" i'd like to see more crown.

Also, am curious where the extra % or so of depth is coming from on that one given the apparently shallow crown and reasonable pavilion.

 

[volabroad]

Okay, I'm a little less confused. . .

I found an interesting stone that I think is a good value. It is eye-clean, so the SI2 clarity is not an issue. Tell me what you think:

Round
6.32-6.34x3.81mm
.93ct
Depth: 60.2%
Table: 58%
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Clarity: SI2
Color: H
Flu: none
Crown: 34
Pav Angle: 40.7
Girdle: Thin-Medium
Culet: None

What do you think? It scores well. Any other concerns about this diamond, other than clarity? Is it too thin in the girdle? The cut/measurements seem perfect for a .93ct stone.

 

[valeria101]

No problem! The stats look great to me, girdle included (I would start not liking a very thin one, but this should be fine, unless you want a tension seting).

 

[mdx]

Hey Volobroad
That’s a nice looking stone. Good balance, Girdle is fine.
If the symmetry components are OK it could display Hearts and Arrows, Don’t mention that to the vendor he may lift the price. Be sure to have the stone inspected by a qualified appraiser in the return period, as the numbers should only be a guide.

Johan
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd

 

[aljdewey]

HA, Vola. NOW you're cooking with gas! This stone seems reeeeeeeeeally nice by the numbers!

The girdle's fine. Here are the things you want to know about the inclusions: Are the white/dark/black? What kind of inclusions are they....are they crystals, are they feathers, are they wispy? Where in the stone are they located?

I have an H, SI2 stone from Whiteflash, and it is COMPLETELY eye-clean. They are wispy, white inclusions that I have a hard time finding even under the loupe. As long as the stone is eyeclean, you should be good to go on this.

I'd second Johan's recommendation - have it appraised by an independent appraiser to confirm it's grading. This stone looks like a great find, and it WILL look like a 1 ct. on the hand. This is buying smart!

 

[volabroad]

The inclusions are eye clean, but they are crystals. . .what does that signify?

I made sure it wasn't "feathers" so there shouldn't be an internal strength issues.

Anything to worry about crystals?

 

[pqcollectibles]

Crystals could be white. Could be colored. Colored inclusions often appear black so people call them "black carbon". In reality, the colored inclusions are often other colored gemstone fragments like garnet for example.

If the crystals are located near the girdle edge, it can be easy to hide them in the mounting of the diamond. Under a prong or bezel. If they are toward the bottom and sides of the diamond, they may or may not be visible once mounted. Dark crystals in the center of the diamond could be visible thru the table when the diamond is mounted.

You really need to get the Vendor to "eyeball" the diamond for you and tell you what they see. Have an appraiser confirm the diamond is eye clean as well.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 12/31/2003 7:17:55 PM volabroad wrote:





The inclusions are eye clean, but they are crystals. . .what does that signify?

Anything to worry about crystals?

----------------

Nothing at all to worry about with crystals. As long as it's eyeclean, you're good to go. Part of finding out what types of inclusions and where they are located......as PQ mentioned, sometimes you can hide them under a prong, etc. My inclusions are a bunch of pinpoints and a few white wispy inclusions under the table, but because they aren't dark, they are harder to discern even under a loupe.

Also, knowing about the inclusions helps you identify your diamond.

Let us know how you make out, and definitely remembers we crave pictures here! We love to help celebrate purchases!

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 12/31/2003 7:17:55 PM volabroad wrote:

The inclusions are eye clean, but they are crystals. . .what does that signify?

I made sure it wasn't 'feathers' so there shouldn't be an internal strength issues.

----------------

Not sure what this story with feathers and internal strain is, but there is surely nothing worse to be said about included crystals than about any other type of inclusion. Some would say they are cool to look at. Included crystals become a nuisance only if the breack the surface of the diamond: in that case they may get knocked off and leave pits behind. However, this is mostly a concern for the cutter than for you: the cnace that you find a surface-breaking crystal in a cut diamond are just about nil.

Conclusion? You have yet another great stone!

 

[Giangi]

Looks like a very good stone! Great size, cut and diameters! It will surely look like most 1caraters out there with 63% depth!