Can an F colored diamond have a brown tint?

[present4me]

Hi all. I have a beautiful 2.47 F IF asscher with two separate GIA certs attesting to the F color. I bought the diamond from Whiteflash and took it to a local jeweler who is AGS certified. Two gemologists graded the diamond an H. They were so confused as to why their color grade was off that they called GIA directly. If I understood them correctly, my diamond has a brown tint and GIA has a separate set of masters for such diamonds....and the GIA F for brown tints corresponds to what AGS considers an H. Is this true? I was under the impression that an F was an F.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't know about brown tint diamonds but what I DO know is that AGS and GIA sometimes get it wrong. I have 2 diamonds, one is AGS-certed and the other GIA-certed, both say there's NO fluorescence, but they definitely have MBF (and one is definitely hazy). A while ago, a PS'er called Harriet bought an I diamond, only to have it appraised as J and K by two separate appraisers (if my memory serves me right).

Have you contacted WF and told them your concern? I'm sure, WF being a reputable vendor, will take measures to address it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Doe the cert have any notation regarding color besides saying F? I don't see how when they called GIA that they could have explained it unless there is a notation on the cert. The diamond sounds beautiful, though. How about some pictures?!

 

[Amys Bling]

I've never heard of there being different master scales... Can you post a pic??

 

[present4me]

There is no indication on either GIA cert of it having a tint. It's a straight-up 'F' on both.
I bought the diamond last year and it is now set in a gorgeous LM halo. Hopefully the picture does it justice. There's no way I'm giving it up, but this is something that has been bugging me since the appraisal.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Did the appraisers view it once set? That might make quite a difference since it's no longer loose and they can't really view it properly. Also, the only times I have seen a GIA report for a very light color diamond on the "brown" side as opposed to the yellow, it was noted on the GIA report next to the color.

Def talk to whiteflash!

 

[present4me]

The diamond was appraised unset. This has been brewing in my head for a year, so going back to Whiteflash isn't an option. At this point I'm really just looking for education! Any experts out there???

 

[Phoenix]

The diamond was appraised unset. This has been brewing in my head for a year, so going back to Whiteflash isn't an option. At this point I'm really just looking for education! Any experts out there???

I respectfully disagree! I know you're past the return period, but you paid for an F and it's been appraised 2 grades lower!! If anything, since it's been bothering you for year now, it's NEVER going to stop bothering you. And you paid a large amount of money for those specs, and not chump change!! I'd still contact WF if I were you. Have them look at it again, and also request that the diamond be sent to AGS for re-grading and if necessary to GIA as well (though I suspect you may have to pay for the GIA grading but not necessarily the AGS re-grading; def worth your peace of mind).

One of the two diamonds I mentioned came from a reputable vendor. I sent it back even though I was outside of the return period. Being a reputable vendor, they allowed me to return it and change it for another one. WF as well as my vendor will stand by their good reputation, I reckon.

 

[makemepretty]

I'm not an expert but it sounds to me like the local jewelers are most likely wrong. I'd believe Whiteflash & GIA over them honestly. Realize that an appraisal or a grading is an opinion. You have paperwork from GIA saying it's an F....it's an F and leave it at that or you'll drive yourself crazy. Whiteflash also knows what they're doing since they've been doing this a long time.

I know how you feel though. I have a gorgeous sparkly white G that I took to my local jeweler to make sure it was genuine when I first bought it. It was so perfect that at first they didn't think it was real so they took out the diamond tester, after 3 ladies all got positive results they called the jeweler over to look at it under a microscope. He verified it was genuine but then said he thought it was an I color.That still bothers me, even though I know he did no real grading and it was set so there's no way he could tell just by "looking". I know they were just unhappy it didn't come from them. I have read so many stories on pricescope about bad jewelers and their "opinions" when a diamond isn't purchased directly from them. So, take it for what it's worth...nothing.

Your asscher is gorgeous(seriously starting to become my favorite cut lately) and it actually looks whiter than the melee in the picture you posted!

 

[makemepretty]

Phoenix, remember this post?
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-local-jeweller-thought-my-j-coloured-studs-were-n-colored.150003/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-local-jeweller-thought-my-j-coloured-studs-were-n-colored.150003/[/URL]

You of all people know how local jewelers can be and should offer some reassurance rather than tell her to return her lovely diamond. I do understand the OP's diamond was graded unset but I find it highly unlikely an F would be an H. Also Leon is a diamond master from what I hear, when he made your setting and was picking out the surrounding diamonds he would have mentioned that your diamond looked more like an H than an F when finding the halo stones.

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, remember this post?
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-local-jeweller-thought-my-j-coloured-studs-were-n-colored.150003/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-local-jeweller-thought-my-j-coloured-studs-were-n-colored.150003/[/URL]

You of all people know how local jewelers can be and should offer some reassurance rather than tell her to return her lovely diamond. I do understand the OP's diamond was graded unset but I find it highly unlikely an F would be an H. Also Leon is a diamond master from what I hear, when he made your setting and was picking out the surrounding diamonds he would have mentioned that your diamond looked more like an H than an F when finding the halo stones.

Ah, sorry, I read the OP's first post wrong. I thought she'd taken it to a professional appraiser, my bad! I apologise to the OP. (For what it's worth though, I was *not* suggesting that she send it back to WF, I was merely sharing what's happened to me. I thought, again on the mis-understanding, that she could at least discuss it with WF and explore options available).

Yeah, I agree with MMP, local jewellers are not to be relied on when it comes to grading other vendors' diamonds. OP, if it still bothers you, perhaps have the diamond unmounted and take it to a well-known independent appraiser, preferably one that's recommended by PS/ PS'ers.

 

[present4me]

Thanks Phoenix and MMP...that is so helpful! I know how ridiculous this sounds, but after I received the appraisal I started looking at my diamond differently. The appraisal also made a huge difference in terms of insured value. I have no intention of losing it, but you never know what will happen. The diamond was returned to Whiteflash by another PSer who had it for some time but never wore it. I happened to be looking for an asscher when it came in. Because they don't usually keep asschers of this size in-house, Whiteflash offered it to me at a huge discount (or so they said ). They were going to list the stone at 40k but offered it to me at 28k. The appraisal was for 33k. If it's truly an F it definitely should appraise higher from what I've been seeing. Again, I don't plan on anything happening to it, but I want to be able to get a similar stone if something should.

Where would I find an independent appraiser in the NY/NJ/PA area?

 

[Phoenix]

Thanks Phoenix and MMP...that is so helpful! I know how ridiculous this sounds, but after I received the appraisal I started looking at my diamond differently. The appraisal also made a huge difference in terms of insured value. I have no intention of losing it, but you never know what will happen. The diamond was returned to Whiteflash by another PSer who had it for some time but never wore it. I happened to be looking for an asscher when it came in. Because they don't usually keep asschers of this size in-house, Whiteflash offered it to me at a huge discount (or so they said ). They were going to list the stone at 40k but offered it to me at 28k. The appraisal was for 33k. If it's truly an F it definitely should appraise higher from what I've been seeing. Again, I don't plan on anything happening to it, but I want to be able to get a similar stone if something should.

Where would I find an independent appraiser in the NY/NJ/PA area?

You could contact David Wolf in the NY area. His email addy is: [email protected]

or Dave Atlas for PA: [email protected]

ETA: make sure your loose diamond is insured both ways when you ship it. I say this because my insurer doesn't cover loose stones.

 

[denverappraiser]

Color grading of diamonds is a measure of saturation, not hue, and F is decidedly faint. In most cases the body color is yellow and most diamond masters are chosen with this in mind. It does lead to some confusion for people who see in color. That said, GIA is pretty good at it and, equally importantly, they are the DEFINITION of what is and what is not an 'F'. Appraisaers are generally estimating what GIA would call it if submitted and GIA is reporting what they DID call it. That doesn't mean they're 'right' or that they will call it the same thing if submitted again but it's a good clue, and the fact that you submitted it twice with the same results just increases it. That said, if you're unhappy, talk to Whiteflash about it. I don't know what their policies are on year old stones and I suspect it varies with the details but they're pretty straight up people and I would expect them to do what they can to get you something you'll be happy with. The worst they can say is no.

AGSL uses the same grading standards and rules as GIA. That doesn't mean they'll agree but there's nothing fundamentally different about what they're doing or how they do it.

 

[present4me]

Thanks Denver. What about my jeweler's assertion that GIA has a different set of masters for brown stones? According to him, the 'F' for brown stones is not at all the same as an 'F' for non-brown stones, and in fact it's more like an 'H'. This makes no sense to me at all.

 

[denverappraiser]

Thanks Denver. What about my jeweler's assertion that GIA has a different set of masters for brown stones? According to him, the 'F' for brown stones is not at all the same as an 'F' for non-brown stones, and in fact it's more like an 'H'. This makes no sense to me at all.

I think this is not correct.

The GIA people are pretty forthcoming with questions like this. They aren't there on Sunday but if you try them tomorrow I suspect they'll be happy to give you a straight answer, straight from the proverbial horses mouth.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If you paid $28k and the stone was appraised for $33k, then that seems to be a very nice cushion for insurance purposes. Of course, if they wrote H color on the appraisal, then you need another appraisal. Can WF have their appraiser do one for you? It might be a little trouble to send the ring, but at least you could hopefully get an appraisal that accurately describes what the GIA cert says. Or, first try taking it and the cert to a local jeweler who does appraisals and hopefully they would write it up as an F. If you have two GIA grades of F, I wouldn't give it another thought. It looks totally colorless to me in the setting. I wouldn't even consider unsetting it from a Leon setting for another appraisal and then have to send it back to him to reset! You loved the stone before you were told this, and I would just forget it aside from getting another insurance valuation.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

For one thing, my spidey senses are telling me that the "appraisers" are BS ing you. I hav enever heard such things in my time on PS

Second, when you get an appraisal for insurance purposes of a diamond with GIA papers you do NOT want the appraisers opinion of the stone independently of the paperwork. You want them to describe what the diamond is worth given what information they have about it, and that includes the GIA papers. The GIA report is considered definitive, and you should absolutely not have an appraisal stating an H color when you have GIA papers that are F color! That is preposterous and I shake my head at an appraiser who would think that his/her opinion trumps GIA in terms of insurance replacement value. If I am reading your posts correctly and indeed you have apprisals documents claiming the stone is only an H, burn those documents and get a better appraiser. Shame on them, frankly, if that is the case.

It is a totally different scenerio if you go to an appraiser to ask their *opinion* about a diamond and how it compares to the lab report. But even then, I would not take an appraisers word over GIA, personally, and if I did doubt the GIA papers, would resubmit the stone to set my mind at ease.

Whiteflash can likely help answer al lthese questions for you, and could likely even resubmit the stone if you want.

 

[present4me]

Thanks Dreamer and Seeker. I agree that an appraisal of 33k is a nice cushion over the purchase price. However, I bought the stone based upon Whiteflash telling me they were listing it at 40k. I really did not want a 'used' stone but purchased it because it seemed to be a nice stone and a terrific deal. If its true value is only 33k I would have bought an unworn stone and avoided potential bad juju, etc. For the record I really enjoyed dealing with Whiteflash and do not in any way think they were insincere.

I was very unhappy with the local 'expert' jeweler who did the appraisal, and yes he did write 'H' on the appraisal document along with his opinion that it was a brown tinted stone. BTW, he was quite proud of himself for coming up with this explanation and told me how 'lucky' I was that he went the extra mile to call GIA and figure this all out. Unbelievable! According to his website he is one of only 300 appraisers nationally who operate a fully accredited AGS lab, if that means anything.

Yes I do love the stone, but I am such an impressionable, ridiculous creature that to me it now looks brown. I'm thinking another opinion is in order even if it means having it unset and reset.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Shame on him for feeling proud of himself for tainting your impession of your stone! What a jerk. And the ego to think his opinion is more important than GIA. I am not saying an appraiser should never disagree with GIA, but is he/she does then the opinion should be stated as an opinion, not as a fact like that. I won't even mention the apparently blatant lie about calling GIA

Regarding the notion it is a used diamond, most and many are my friend, you just don't know it

I would send the ring as is, set, to a reputable PS independent appraiser who can set your mind at ease. I know the diamond you speak of and the former owner, I believe. I seriously doubt the stone has a brown cast. Even if the diamond did have a brown tint as its primary color, with F you would *never ever see that tint*. Anyways, take steps to clear this up, you should not be feeling negatively about your stone.

 

[marygrace]

I was very unhappy with the local 'expert' jeweler who did the appraisal, and yes he did write 'H' on the appraisal document along with his opinion that it was a brown tinted stone. BTW, he was quite proud of himself for coming up with this explanation and told me how 'lucky' I was that he went the extra mile to call GIA and figure this all out. Unbelievable! According to his website he is one of only 300 appraisers nationally who operate a fully accredited AGS lab, if that means anything.

Yes I do love the stone, but I am such an impressionable, ridiculous creature that to me it now looks brown. I'm thinking another opinion is in order even if it means having it unset and reset.

He insulted your diamond. In my book, that is like calling someone's baby ugly. Why would he be happy about this? I would want to prove him wrong and set things right in my mind.

 

[present4me]

He did insult my baby! and yes, I do want to prove him wrong....especially since he was so smug.

Thanks to everyone for your helpful ideas. I will call GIA and plan on sending it to a PS-approved appraiser, as soon as I can get it off my finger.

 

[Gypsy]

I'm sorry the appraiser is a jerk. He had no right to do that. Call GIA and I'm sure you will feel better. I think your stone looks beautiful honey.

 

[hotskate]

Asscher where are you located? I am just curious because i am going through a similar situation