Buying a diamond in Toronto, Canada: My experience.

[blakeo]

This thread is intended for those in Canada who have considered purchasing off price scope but have been worried about getting burned.

I started looking for a diamond 4 months ago not knowing the first thing about them. I went to Mappins, Peoples, Spence, Birks, European Jewellery and a number of other maul outlets. Turning to the net I found an outstanding level of quality information from the GoodOldGold website – here was someone who knew what they were talking about and was prepared to share that info. The problem for me was that I was very nervous about buying over the internet, and even more so from a location outside Canada – what if something went wrong?. A bit more investigation led me to USA Certed Diamonds. Despite the name, the office was located just 15 minutes away from my work in North York, Toronto.

In searching pricescope, I found a diamond that represented the best compromise for me. The same gem seemed to be offered by a number of different vendors, but on reading the USA Certed website, they guaranteed to beat the lowest advertised price on PriceScope.

I called USA Certed and spoke to Martin who explained the process in getting the diamond in. We arranged a meeting and I went to his office to discuss next steps. There was no pressure and he seemed genuinely sincere in assisting me make a good decision.

Once I had confirmed the gem I was interested in, Martin faxed me a copy of the AGS certificate and we organized a second meeting. In his office, we phoned up the US based company that had the diamond in stock and I was able to ask my questions directly about where the inclusions were, whether the girdle was faceted etc. This call also confirmed that although not advertised as such, the gem had good H&A pattern.

As the diamond was in the US, Martin required a deposit to bring the gem into Canada. We also agreed that I would purchase the diamond if it met the specifications on the AGS certificate and “that there were no surprises” identified through the independent appraisal.

I was very wary of this having been advised on the internet to insist upon a “full cash back guarantee for any reason”, however I could also see his viewpoint that there is a lot of paperwork and effort involved in getting the diamond to Canada (and sending it back) if I just changed my mind (or didn’t have the money in the first place). By this stage I had a level of comfort & trust in Martin’s professionalism that I could proceed.

We calculated out the price (which included a C$70 shipping charge) and I paid a deposit. If you’re based in Canada, you’ll know that the Looney has dropped around 5c to the dollar in the last few weeks, therefore when it came to paying the balance on the diamond yesterday I expected to get landed with the exchange rate difference. Martin waived this difference in my favour. 

We then went through and weighed the diamond, looked at the inclusions under high powered binocular microscope and viewed the H&A pattern under his viewer. Knowing that once set, the H&A pattern wouldn’t be visible, I took some good shots and video on my DV camcorder that I’ll be able to show my intended later (will see if I can post some still shots later).

I have 7 days to return the diamond so I have an appointment with an appraiser on Thursday.

Lessons learned
• Do your homework – visit GoodOldGolds excellent site
• Decide on the specs you are after and go to a B&M store to see what they look like in settings (and to check prices)
• Check to make sure you’re getting the best price on price scope
• Leave yourself lots of time so that if the gem you are looking for isn’t currently available you aren’t forced into a compromise
• When booking the appraisal it can sometimes take up to 2 weeks to get a timeslot – make sure you organize this prior to taking delivery of the diamond so you have time to return it if there are any problems.

Conclusion
• I was nervous and risk adverse when I started looking into purchasing on line but have had a good experience. As detailed below, even with the excessive Canadian taxes I figure I saved around 35% on the total cost of the diamond and ring and I’m more confident of the quality of the diamond cut.
• If you are in Canada and are tempted by the prices offered on Pricescope but want to use a ‘local’ dealer, I would recommend USA Certed based on my experience.

If you wanted to call and ask any questions, contact Martin for my phone no or I will try to respond back to replys on this thread.

The Diamond:

0.92, E, VS1, depth 60.8%, table 57%, AGS000 (H&A), thn-me, no flor, 6.28x6.23x3.81

Pricescope prices:
$5485, $5046* (affordable diamonds online)
$5497, $5057*‡ (Whiteflash)
$5505, $5065* (Abazias)
$5555, $5111* (USA Certed)
$5559, $5114* (Dirtcheap Diamonds)
$5573, $5127 (Tradeshop)

(n.b. first figure is price per Carat, second figure is actual price)

Final price calc:
(((($US x (July 15th exchange rate))x luxury tax) + shipping) x gst/pst)

OR

((US$5045 x 1.4046) x 1.1) + $70) x 1.15 = $9040.71 + price for high polish 6 prong Tiffany ring in Pt without Rhodium coating $1,100 ($1,265 after tax) = $10,305.71

Competing prices from Bloor/ Yorkville:

Tiffany & Co: 0.92, E, VS1, Tiffany cut, Pt 6 prong Tiffany setting $15,500

Cartier: 0.91, G, VS1, cut???, 4 prong tiffany setting, $15,800

Birks: 0.82, E, VS2, Birks Excellent cut, $14,750

 

[blakeo]

N.B the competitor pricing provided in the original posting excluded PST & GST so add another 15% to each.

 

[WalnutCrunch]

While I think you got a good deal on a good diamond, I'd have to disagree a bit about how much you really did save. I don't think it's really fair to compare your purchase to Tiffs/Cartier/Birks prices as they are above retail prices and you're paying a premium just for the name.

I made my purchase back in March and I did shop around on PS as well. I ended up going with a local b&m jeweller because the difference in prices wasn't enough to make me go the internet route. Here's the math on my purchase:

.73ct E SI1 AGS ideal-0 HCA1.3 Canadian Diamond
I paid: C$5700 (plus taxes)
Comparable stones on PS sites at the time:
US$3250 * 1.1 lux tax * 1.48 exchange = C$5291 (plus shipping + taxes)

So I would've saved at most 7% by going with a PS vendor. That wasn't quite enough to make me go that route. Not that I'm saying $400 is nothing, but I felt it was worth it for the convenience and added peace of mind. I was able to see the stones in person, and it was a Canadian diamond which demands a bit of a premium anyway.

Note that that was in March, when our dollar wasn't doing as well. I'm sure the savings would be greater now. But my point is that while you do save by buying off PS vendors from Canada, the savings isn't really in the magnitude of 35%; especially if you negotiate agressively.

Just my 2 cents. (1.42 cents US)

WC

 

[blakeo]

Fair enough. I seriously considered European Jewellery (Fran Mills provided excellent service) in the Eaton Centre (0.70, G, VVS2, Excellent Cut for $5020). I also tried Jewels by Koby, Ani Jewellers and Peoples but with limited success. I would be interested in what B&M you used as I haven't yet sprung for the setting and would like to see some more examples of work before deciding.

There is also the intangible value of a 'little blue box' from Tiffany's that I'm not taking into account. Personal preference, but I'd rather spend the $7,520 difference on a honeymoon trip.

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Considering what we have to choose from in Toronto, you did well with Martin. Because he deals primarily with US customers, he's able to get GIA or AGS easily. Most vendors in Toronto deal with GemScan, & if you ask them to find you an AGS/GIA stone they start getting tongue tied with all their bull$hitting as to how hard it is to find those stone etc.
I agree with Walnut Crunch regarding the more elite (or so they think anyway) jewelery stores. They are incredibly overpriced. How did you like Ani Jewelers? Nice price on their HOF dont you think? NOT!

Be careful where you go for your appraisal. Gem Scam is not the best at all, & I had a personal experience with them that leads me to believe they are not that credible nor are they that "independent". The one lab that has a very strict criteria & has a solid reputation is at Harold Weinstein office. The URL is www.hwgem.com They charged me I think it was $65 for the appraisal. They are incredibly busy but I explained I only had a 7 day window to have the stone appraised & she fit me in. Usually its about a 2-3 wk wait. Oh by the way, Gemscan will tell you it takes 2 wks to make an appt. but I know that Diamonds For Less around the corner walks their customers into Gemscan for an instant appraisal to verify their goods. Nice independent practice they have going on there. I am not affiliated with Harold Weinsteins office by the way. I have just heard from various retailers that they have a great reputation in the business. By the way, my appraisal matched my cert inclusion for inclusion perfectly. I didnt give them my cert either. The receptionist asked, & I laughed & said I need an independent appraisal.

Make sure you put up your pic when you get it.

Judy

 

[trichrome]

For the gem guys, go look at the GIA website and search for the guys
who have done and completed a GIA course and are certified... there you`ll
find a list of independant people.

Trichrome.

 

[blakeo]

first shot

 

[blakeo]

shot 2

 

[blakeo]

shot 3

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Yep, its nice looking. Seems like you have a winner there.


Judy

 

[WalnutCrunch]

Nice!

As for the appraiser, I agree with Judy that they have to be independent so they're not biased against your stone and try to push you towards buying from an affiliated jeweller. I tried searching the Yellow Pages for an appraiser over here (Vancouver) and they were next to impossible to find. Luckily for me someone here on PS recommended a gemologist and she was great. You can try searching here and see if one has been recommended already.

What I liked about the appraiser I went to (and what you should probably look for) was that she spent a lot of time with me with the stone under the microscope. She showed me the AGS number on the girdle and also pointed out every inclusion for me. She showed me why AGS graded my diamond the way they did. We also chatted about diamonds in general and it was very fascinating.

It cost $40 for the loose stone and $20 for the completed setting which was very reasonable.

 

[3Richmond]

Would anyone know of an appraiser in Toronto that gives the level of service as the one used by Walnut Crunch? I've used Harold Weinstein in the past because of their reputation but they make you stay in the waiting room and they don't let you talk to the appraiser directly.

 

[blakeo]

10am this morning I had my appraisal with Harold Weinstein - they're down 2 blocks east of the Eaton Centre on Queen. I sat out in a little side room reading magazines for 30 min (not allowed to watch). For $65 + tax I got a little bound certificate with an inclusion plot on the left and the comments 6.24-6.28x3.80mm, 91ct, VS-1, E, Cutting Grade 1+ (ideal) est value $16,000 +GST.

OK, so nice to know that its the right stone as the AGS certificate I have but weight is slightly less and I have no idea what their cutting grade is supposed to represent. There was no talk or discussion or explination. Still, I'm glad that the stone is essentially what it was advertised to be (rounding liberties excepted).

Now, if I could only find a good 6 prong tiff pt setting that actually looks like an original tiffany and not like there have been 6 wires soldered onto a coke tab....

 

[ccuheartnurse]

I dont know of any appraisers that provide the kind of 1:1 WalnutCrunch had. I wasnt looking for that myself as I knew a fair amount relating to my stone in the 1st place. All I was looking for was confirmation that the stone my fiance purchased was indeed that same stone represented on paper. HW did that. Even at GemScam they dont do 1:1.

Blakeo,
How funny that you ended up at HW. haha
I've made the rounds down on Dundas Square, been to the jewelery exchange, & been to many jewelery stores in the search for my ring. The place I ended up going to was Damiani in Woodbridge. Believe it or not, they actually have some very good prices for a retail store. Also, the price they give you usually is with taxes in. This is by no means a ploy to pay cash, pay credit if you want. They just give really good pricing. Besides that, they have a lot of styles in their cases to choose from. And if there is something you want done custom, they have a manufacturer upstairs. He's an independent business, but share the building so convenient for Damiani (

) & the customers. This guy actually mounted my stone & did a great job, even let me & my fiance watch him do it. He didnt even laugh at me when I said I wanted the prongs set between my arrows. He did chuckle & say that in his 12yrs of working, he has only been asked to do that 2 times. haha

If Martin recommends Rose Jewelery. I've been there too. The guy was pleasant enough but he wasnt listening to what I wanted. He just kept repeating, "so you really want platinum". He was trying to get me to buy white gold. Thats not what I wanted. I found what I wanted at Damiani. Needless to say, it was easy for me, I chose a Scott Kay ring. haha The prices there are better than in the U.S. Email me if you have any further questions.

Judy

[email protected]

 

[3Richmond]

Blakeo

My apprasial at HW didn't come with an inclusion plot. I had paid the same $65 fee but received the nice little grey holder with two copies of the appraisal. There was a brief description and a photo on the right side. Hmmm?

I should call and find out if I'm missing a component of my appraisal.

 

[Tim]

ccuheartnurse,

Can you clear up something for me please? If I like a stone, do I pay the Jeweller in full and then take the stone to an independent appraiser like Harold Weinstein myself? I guess I have to get them to agree in writing that if the appraisal do not match with their GIA certificate then I get full refund.

Thanks,

Tim

 

[blakeo]

tiffany preferred

 

[blakeo]

Tiffany not so much...

 

[Tim]

Let us know if you find one Tiffany lookalike.

Tim

 

[blakeo]

Tim,

Re your enquiry on payment ahead of appraisal. On my invoice with IGS was the following statement: "All diamonds may be returned for refund within 7 days from date of receipt of the diamond. Please contact IGS for instructions if returning. Client responsible for for return shipping and insurance charges". To this, Martin and I added "Provided that the diamond matches the specifications of the AGS Cert #..... and that there are no unforseen surprises as identified by the appraiser, then the client agrees to purchase the diamond".

In my case as I was the one actually picking up the diamond from IGS offices and transporting it to the appraiser, I needed to pay up front (fair enough). I suspect that you could arrange the diamond to be sent directly to an appraiser that you & your supplier trust but you would need to agree on split of shipping and insurance charges.

 

[trichrome]

In Montreal, which is not that far from Toronto, I recommand EGM lab...

You`ll be able to sit with the appraiser, look at fluo, look under the scope,
etc.... weight the stone...they are always showing you the diamond so there`s
not a single second when you don`t know where it is...

and it`s 60$ for a piece (it takes between 30 and 45 minutes)

and they are GIA cert & they run a gem school.

100% fully independant...

Trichome

 

[ccuheartnurse]

I see Tim you got your answer regarding the payment of the diamond. This practice is actually far from standard in retail in our city. I know Damiani has a 7 day return policy. They do have a fair amount of diamonds, but not enough info on them (no sarins) & mostly Gemscan.

As for the EGM Lab, I've never heard of them. The services they provide seem very informative & educational. Too bad they "arent that far from Toronto". (For those that dont know, Toronto & Montreal are a good 6hrs drive from each other).

Blakeo,
I dont recall seeing anyone having a Tiffany ring like the one you like, except Tiffany on Bloor St. haha I've seen many in the style that you dont like that much. Is she stuck on that setting or are you? If nothing else try going to Damiani & speaking with Claudio (son-in-law) & see what price he can get from a guy named Harry (manufacturer). Harry was the one who mounted my diamond. Does some really great work. I saw all kinds of jewelery laying on the tables when I was waiting for my ring to be completed. Just take a detailed pic in with you. Of course, you could always buy online & take a drive out to Buffalo to pick it up. Try ringdesigner.com (Greg). He's very fair with his prices & doesnt get cheap with the metal content either. He's working on a quote for my fiance's band, & at the same time I'm waiting for Damiani to give me a price. I like comparison shopping.

Good luck guys. Its nice to see that there are other women in Toronto with great diamonds on their fingers ( or soon to be).

Judy

 

[blakeo]

Judy,

I checked out Damiani online - they have some nice stuff but I'm set on the traditional Tiffany setting (and yes, my preference, not hers).

Simon from www.lookdiamonds.ca rang today to say he could guarantee 99.9% similarity btw the Tiffany original and one he could make. He can apparently make a blank before making it in Pt so I can see exactly how it will turn out. No info on price yet though...

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Blakeo,
I tried to check out lookdiamonds.ca but the search came up empty. Are they in Toronto? Damiani's website actually is useless. You'll have to physically drive out to the store with a pic. From what I saw Harry making, a Tiffany would be no problem for him. The style is actually pretty simple & I cant imagine it being too difficult for any platinumsmith to make. I actually have a contact at Platinum Ulimited but the pricing is very high, much higher than Damiani's guy & they use the same Platinum alloy.

I'm not trying to change your mind, you know what you like & what you dont, but did you by any chance come across the Soltice settings? Its a nice substantial setting, but at the same time, simple. They have a nice version of a low profile prong. Jonathan sells them (I think).

Keep us posted on your ring adventures.

Judy

 

[blakeo]

Does anyone know if the 10% luxury tax Canada levies on diamond imports also applies to platinum ring settings (without the diamond) being brought into Canada? I like the SuperbCert 6 prong Tiffany style but need to know if there is a premium buying out of country and having it shipped in.

Also, can anyone say from experience whether having a higher HV hardness scale for the platinum alloy really effects how badly it will scratch/ patena/ polish out? I have heard most internet Pt suppliers use 950 PT with 5% iridium for a hardness HV value of 80 (pure Pt has HV of 50) but that having 5% cobalt as the alloy will result in HV of 135. Anyone know a supplier/ jeweller in Canada who works with 950 Pt with cobalt as the alloy?

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Blakeo,
I think you might have that backwards. Cobalt is not a good alloy & is incredibly soft. Check out www.diamondsunlimited.com He has a nice page on platinum on there.
I dont know about the ring & luxury tax. I know that if I go to Buffalo, I dont have that worry.

Judy

 

[Hest88]

Blakeo, cobalt is hard, but it's also brittle, so I wouldn't use it for fine jewelry. If you want a harder alloy, get 90%Plat/10% Iridium or 5% Ruthenium.

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Thanks Hest for clarifying that about Cobalt. I actually just put a Yahoo search for Platinum alloys & a bunch of sites popped up. Also, Jeff's site is good too (diamondsunlimited.com).
I read consistently though that lower grade jewelery are made with Cobalt. Oh, Icemans site has a blurb on Platinum.


Judy

 

[blakeo]

Thanks for the info folks.



I e-mailed Superbcert re their rings as follows:

a)Do you sell just the settings by themselves without the diamond?

Yes

b)Can the diamond be set by any (competent) jeweler here in Toronto or will I have to send the diamond to you to do this?

Yes. You don't have to send it to us. Save your money.

c)I live in Toronto, Canada – could you please let me know what the price would be for such a setting including detailing basic price, any US or Canadian taxes, shipping, insurance etc

Cost of ring as detailed on our website + shipping & insurance ($75.00US). You are responsible for all Excise, VAT, and Customs taxes as applicable under Canadian Law. Last time I looked this amounted to approxiamtely 25% of your purchase price.

d)I am looking for a Platinum ring of 950 purity but would be interested in what alloy you use for the remaining 5% (iridium, cobalt, ruthenium, palladium etc). Please detail.

The rings with 10% Iridium are 900 PT. The rings with 5% Ruthenium are 950 PT. The Ruthenium is ever so slightly softer than the Iridium but absolutely not noticeable and has no deleterious long-term effect on the ring's durability. We provide a Lifetime Guarantee on the ring and it's
workmanship if you decide to have us do the setting of your diamond.

e)Is the ring highly polished or rhodium plated?

highly polished.

f)Does it come with a jewellery box or loose in the package?

Beautiful Jewelry Box.



NB: Ruthenium has a HV of 135+ @ 950

 

[blakeo]

OK, now I'm confused again. On http://www.sndgems.com/platinumfacts.htm they indicate that Iridium is harder and heavier than Ruthenium and therefore their preference for use. This seems to contradict the info on www.diamondsunlimited.com

They also state that iridium has a slight yellow colour - will this show up? What colour is Ruthenium?

Can anyone advise as to which is the best alloy to use? Superbcert offer either iridium or ruthenium as the 5% alloy in a 950 Pt ring for the same price.

The following is from the sndgems website:

"Iridium: The rarest of the PGMs, iridium is second only to osmium as the densest element and is the most corrosive resistant known. It is white with a yellowish hue. Although brittle, it is extremely hard (over 4 times that of platinum itself) and with its high melting point, temperature stability and corrosion resistance, is used in high-temperature equipment such as the crucibles used to grow crystals for laser technology. Its biological compatibility is what we owe most to iridium as this enables it to be used in a range of medical and surgical applications. Iridium can be found in health technology combating cancer, Parkinson's disease, heart conditions and even deafness and blindness. A shiny, oxidation-resistant metal, iridium also adds to the brilliance and durability of jewellery."
"Ruthenium: Ruthenium's catalytic qualities make it a key element in catalysts for fuel cells. Due to its hardness and corrosion resistance, ruthenium is used to coat electrodes in the chloralkali process which produces chlorine and caustic soda for a wide range of industrial and domestic applications. In the future, the use of ruthenium in alloys for
aircraft turbine blades will help reduce the CO2 impact of air travel on the environment. If current prototypes are successful, their high melting points and high temperature stability will allow for higher temperatures and, therefore, a more efficient burning of aircraft fuel. We prefer platinum iridium alloy because iridium is harder and expensive than ruthenium."