Bought Tiffany''s without Looking at GIA cert

[Obsessed]

Uncle Marty,

Lots of interesting things you've posted have reminded me of somethings i learned in school last year: Commodotization VS branding. It was insightful to hear that DTC is trying to encourage partnerships to sell branded diamonds. The truth is that a successful and profitable business industry is characterized by value addition, such as differentiation, service, AND BRANDING. Once an industry hits 'commodity' status, profits and all return on investment figures are very low. Conversely, sales volume large. It is interesting to note that some online vendors and journalists proclaim that diamonds ARE commodities, since then the industry MUST compete on low cost. If true commodiztization occurs, then many of these vendors will not survive the 'walmart' effect. But there seems to be opposing forces to the trend of commoditization: namely, reputation, technical skills, branding, and relative difficulty for consumers to thoroughly inspect product. I think the latter makes the diamond industry very unique. All though the diamond rough may very well be supply controlled comodity, the final product involves so many technical labor, inspection, and handling, which adds on costs... and each step presents an opportunity for value addition. So far, many respectable vendors have successfuly adapted to these changes and supplies us quality diamonds at lower costs. And they are differentiating themselves through providing education and service.(if diamonds are truly a commodity, then where is the need for education and service?

) Hence diamonds are NOT a commodity(note: abundant supply doesn't necessarily result in commoditization) and the brand names DO add value, since the general public(who are not so knowlegable as members of PS) rely on these brands for quality assurance rather than their own research. Gemology is a science and not everyone is a scientist.

 

[Obsessed]

Is that 38.5 crown measured in degrees or %?​

Yes, in degrees. Thanks for your compliments.

 

[Uncle Marty]

Branding Diamonds. What an interesting concept.
As you must know tradionally diamond wholesalers financed the retailers by giving them terms (time) to pay for their purchasers. Of course the price was greater but the time was necessary because of the all the periphial (sp) merchandise the retail jewelers had to inventory in addition to Diamonds and the jewelry set with Diamonds and other gemstones. Not everything sold at a fast turn.
Then retailers discovered they could buy for less if they bought from the cutters and cut out the wholesalers. Of course they would had to pay for the Diamonds at a faster space of time but retailers felt the difference was worth it. Then the foreign sellers (by foreign I mean sellers from other countries) came into the market and offered terms much like the original wholesalers.
Now the American direct sources started to bad mouth the foreign sellers. Their quality was poor, their cutting was poor, their prices were too little (oops a mistake)and the color of their diamonds were too brown, and of course who wanted to buy naats.
The fact was the big buyers bought the naats by the ton.
The Diamond business is going thru a big transition once again.

I do not believe all retail consumers are looking for IDEAL CUT diamonds. Only the purists in our business. Diamond sellers on the Internet want to convince the retail buyers by their buying the very best there is a gain. But to whom.
Unless you plan to sell the diamond after your divorce in 1-2-3 years why bother. Ever see a diamond in a ring that your lover wore while baking cakes and mixing chopped meat with her fingers.
The sellers on the Interent want to say to the consumers, Look Here **** I sell the very best.
But why ?

More later.........

Uncle Marty of course

 

[hoorray]

----------------
On 3/1/2004 2:41:38 PM Uncle Marty wrote:


I do not believe all retail consumers are looking for IDEAL CUT diamonds. Only the purists in our business. Diamond sellers on the Internet want to convince the retail buyers by their buying the very best there is a gain. But to whom.
Ever see a diamond in a ring that your lover wore while baking cakes and mixing chopped meat with her fingers.
The sellers on the Interent want to say to the consumers, Look Here **** I sell the very best.
But why ?

More later.........

Uncle Marty of course

----------------

Oh, Uncle Marty -- you're going to be fun here!

I'll hold back from responding to the divorce comment, and disagree with your statement that IDEAL cuts don't matter to consumers.

I think consumers are poorly educated about diamonds, particularly the impact that cut has on the performance of a diamond, thus, they don't pay attention to it. However, I have never met a women who didn't love it when her stone sparkled, and didn't continually sneak peaks at it or play with it as the light or sun hit it at different angles. The novelty really doesn't wear off if it is a good one! There are lots of guys who sign on here saying they want to get their intended "the very best". They just don't know that cut is what will make it the best, not D or IF clarity. Thus, the opportunity for the Internet vendors to add value through education, and to differentiate their wears to the now educated part of the market by focusing on well cut stones. Whether this will spread to the mass market is one of those things that no one knows. But...if the branders like HoF keep advertizing and educating the mass market at a high level, it might. Somehow we all learned that D/IF is good!

 

[strmrdr]

Uncle Marty,

The prices on diamonds in the secondary market is such a joke that it renders your whole comment null.
No matter how well cut the diamond the odds of getting anything but a small fraction of the retail price out of it are 0.

 

[Mara]

The amount of people who are seeking true 'ideal' cut stones is going to be small and yes they may be considered purists. But there is a huge difference in a stone that is mediocre at best and one that is a stellar ideal H&A or similar type cut. Mix meat, bake cupcakes, stick your hand in the oven...that diamond is still going to look better than the same mediocre cut stone in the same situations.




Especially when you consider that most of the time retailers mark up the stone so severely that you are getting a mediocre cut stone for the same price you could come online and get a H&A for. Now doesn't that seem foolish? Regardless of who tells me what...I don't believe anyone who says they have the 'best' product. I want to see it with my own virtual eyes. I want to look at the images, the reports, the scopes. I can figure it out for myself.




Purist? Maybe. Best diamond for the $$? More likely.

 

[Uncle Marty]

Mara et al,
I do have respect for your opinion but I do not think you ever worked or owned a jewelry store.
Having a lady walk into my store to have the size adjusted and smelling the ordor of rancid meat coming from the ring does little to add value and sparkle to the diamond. I have always wondered why a lady who fought so hard to get engaged treats her Diamond so poorly. Perhaps there is a message for her beau.
To the gentleman, whose name is not listed, comaplains about how little he is able to get for his second-hand diamond comparing to what he spent could it be he spent too much ?
Perhas he too should invest in Diamonds and wait for a possible buyer. When buying Diamonds from the public, after the usual abuse given them, they often need to be polished and sometimes recut.
The pretties who have owned these Diamonds were told by their jewelers that Diamonds are industructable. Not really true but it appears that these ladies believed the Diamonds cannot break and have made every attempt to proove the industry wrong. I have bought many Diamonds from the public over the past 32 years. I never heard a complaint from my seller that I paid too little.
I can disclose to you one such purchase where i bought a diamond that appeared to be a pear shape but 1/3 of the Diamond was missing. The Area near the point was gone and I made a reasonable offer and it was accepted faster than I can type this with my 2 fingers. The color was I and the clarity appeared to be VVS. The weight of the broken piece was 2.28 ct. Your test for today.
What would you have paid for this broken Diamond ?
Do not be bashful. Let us hear from you experts.
I will tell you the truth afterI read your comments.

Yes ultimately I sweated in places I care not mention while my diamond cutter and I studied the broken piece we had left and made a decision as to how to recut and polish this diamond.

Where we successful, write for all to see and I will tell you what was the results.

Uncle Marty of course
Uncle

 

[diamond fan]

At Tiffany, if you work with good sales person and ask, you can get the range specifications for the Lucida and you can get copies of the GIA and Tiffany certificate before purchasing. Your ring has an excellent resume!!! For one, it's very square, the polish and symmetry have the highest GIA ratings, and the girdle and depth are in the middle of the Lucida range. Having seen a lot of certificates and the corresponding, actual Lucida rings, there weren't very many that had all-around ideal specifications on paper. However, even those that looked best on paper didn't necessarily look the best to the eye. However, the one you got probably looks good on paper and to the eye!

 

[strmrdr]

Uncle Marty,

I dont have to sell a diamond to know how much they go for on the second hand market.

I bought one :}
Saved a bundle too.

When the resale shops were selling at 30% of retail that means they paid 15% at most and more likely 10%.

Maybe your area is different but from what Iv seen on ebay and others have said on here I dont think it is.

and fwiw my nick is short for Storm Rider and more than a few people call me that off the net so its good enough for on here :}

 

[Uncle Marty]

Mara,et al,
It appears to me too many people in this chat room are always complaining about the profit made by retail jewelers when selling Diamonds.
Is "profit" a nasty word. I have been wondering just how much you are prepared to pay a jeweler above his cost?

I bought a Toyota Camry last month. No not a new one, a used one. This is one jeweler that apparantly
did not overcharge his customers so he culd buy a new Toyota after our last purchase. BTW our last purchase was in 1996 when we bought a Toyota Camry that was a 1994 model. I thought after having 189,000 miles it was time to start looking for a newer Toyota.

How I digress....
When I went into the showroom to look at cars and the salesperson greeted me he offered to show me the actual cost of the car (not the sticker on the left window)and sell me a new car for very little over the actual cost.
I wondered could I sell diamonds to you like that ?

How much over actual cost would you pay me for a diamond if it was ewxactly what you wanted to buy.

What would be fair to you. Interesting thought.
Any takers ?

Uncle Marty of course

 

[strmrdr]

uncle marty,
There are dealer kickbacks from the car company on each car sold based on volume.
A friend in the business has told me he could sell cars at the listed cost
and make enough on the kickbacks to pay his sales force and a small profit.
Anything over that price is pure profit for him.
He further stated that he would make more money on the volume selling them at the listed cost than wasteing time getting more money from each customer during the busy times.

now back to diamonds:
It would depend on what kind of services you were offering with it.
No upgrade, buyback or mounting 10% max.
I often buy firearms at cost + 10% and the dealers appear to do just fine.

The internet vendors here that offer the full package tend to charge in the 25% range.
For the level of service, buy back policy and upgrade policies it seems reasonable.

 

[Nicrez]

Strmrdr, about kickbacks, everything has it's rules, even kickbacks in car sales. They have 30 days to sell that car, when it hits the lot, because if it doesn't sell, they are forced to pay for the lot of cars in full (net 30 days), and they kickback is only good for when they have not yet paid, and can get the discount when they DO pay...After 30 days of a car being on the lot, it the best time for a customer to pay, because the dealer has already purchased the car, and they want it OFF the lot, to start the kickback process with NEW cars. So thye CAN lose money if they start stockpiling without customers!




Uncle Marty...I like you! I don't always agree with you

, but I like you!

Any woman who lets her ring smell of meat or remain so dirty is negligent or hasn't learned the secret of Windex and tootbrushes to clean it! I have a friend who for every night for the past 10 years has taken off her E-ring and w-ring at night and soaked it in soap and water and brushed it everymorning with a soft toothbrush. She's just that kind of person, and her ring is always lovely. (Note to all meat mashers...)




Also profit is not a four letter word. It's OK, and I suppose so many people have seen so many bad examples of "diamond dealers" and jewelery scams to have much trust in the minority of the people who are honest. I say minority, because to be honest in general now adays is rare, much less in an industry that is historically charged with diamond swallowing and various other ways to carry out diamonds like carrier pidgeons, unstated irradiation on colored stones, out-maneuvering on mining and deals, and all types of scams and cons due to the huge demand and profit from these stones.




Diamonds are known (even by mercenaries and terrorists) to be the most liquid source of untraceable equity...It's a dangerous beauty, and people who are honest like you, help build that trust again in an industry whose roots are corrupted by the spoils of greed...




Ok, I obviously need to start reading something other than history of diamond books!!

But all in all, welcome to PS Uncle Marty...keep posting, because I love reading them!

 

[hoorray]

I have no problem with profits. Everyone needs to make profits, including the online vendors, or they won't survive to sell us more tomorrow. My beaf with many of the B&M vendors is the lack of knowledge of the salespeople, and the mis-information they spread to make a sale.

And by the way, my local jeweler showed me some new stones he was getting in, including his price, and quoted me a price that gave him a reasonable % on top -- we were both aware of what that was and ok with it. If the stones had been competitively priced to him, I would have bought from him -- I'm all in favor of keeping the local guys healthy through this industry shift. Unfortunately, I could buy equivalent stones for less than his price from several online vendors.

 

[Cookiedough]

I'm so glad uncle marty come to visit.

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 3/2/2004 11:18:16 AM Cookiedough wrote:

I'm so glad uncle marty come to visit.

----------------

Me too we havent agreed on much but its been fun.

 

[Mara]

I clean my ring every morning...letting your ring be dirty is just gross! Why bother having this beautiful (expensive!) ring if you can't take care of it? Definitely nothing I would ever do. Plus I don't cook that much so...

 

[Obsessed]

----------------
On 3/2/2004 1:20:34 AM diamond fan wrote:

At Tiffany, if you work with good sales person and ask, you can get the range specifications for the Lucida and you can get copies of the GIA and Tiffany certificate before purchasing. Your ring has an excellent resume!!! For one, it's very square, the polish and symmetry have the highest GIA ratings, and the girdle and depth are in the middle of the Lucida range. Having seen a lot of certificates and the corresponding, actual Lucida rings, there weren't very many that had all-around ideal specifications on paper. However, even those that looked best on paper didn't necessarily look the best to the eye. However, the one you got probably looks good on paper and to the eye!----------------

Diamond fan,

Thank you for your input

. Yes, the Lucida diamond we have does look great! Can you please post the ideal range for the Lucida proportions even if it is a off the top estimation? Nobody knows.... and it would be a great addition to the knowledge base.

 

[ShallowHal]

On the note of reselling to secondary market, a Tiffany e-ring just sold for about 45% of the original retail price. The auction ended early with the 'buy it now' option of 9500! Original retail was $22000. What a bargain, huh? Even then, I think that is really good for T&Co since others on this forum are saying that regular diamond rings only fetch a small fraction of their original price. Any comments?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2694346969&indexURL=1#ebayphotohosting

 

[Nicrez]

Shallow Hal, that is indeed the market price for that stone, I saw a 1.5 H VVS for exactly $22K. yes under $10K is GREAT! Lucky dogs who bought it! But many people don't feel like they want to buy a ring second hand, so those deals go to the jewelers and retialers who buy them for SO MUCH LESS, and that averages the return rate on a diamond to almost 15% of retail.




Plus, most people overpay for bad stones, so their retail is inflated and they can never sell them in a secondary market for the same. Sad shame. Tiffany's also carries high colored stones J or better and VS2 or better I believe, so those stones will always sell more even on secondary market.




Put it this way, if YOU would pay $22K for a ring, someone definately will pay even up to $18K for that ring second hand because it's Tiffany's. it's a good investment and heirloom Obsessed, ENJOY IT!!!

 

[Obsessed]

ut it this way, if YOU would pay $22K for a ring, someone definately will pay even up to $18K for that ring second hand because it's Tiffany's. it's a good investment and heirloom Obsessed, ENJOY IT!!!"

Thanks, Nicrez.... on the other hand, I wish i found this deal on ebay

. Well, but then i wouldn't have had the experience of taking my fiancee to T&Co to pick out the ring.

 

[Uncle Marty]

Good evening or is it morning STRMRDR, Cookie Dough ( I would love some chocolate cookies just about now),Lop and Nicrez,

I have had all day to think about selling Diamonds for a percentage above my actual cost.

First I want you to know a little more about me before we start to think about about this new way to sell Loose Diamonds.

We owned our (my wife of 47 years and I ) jewelry store in Freeport NY for over 32 years.
We have 2 children, both in the jewelry business.
Our daughter is a Senior Master Graduate Gemologist Appraiser and our son works for an international Diamond company selling Diamonds, gemstones and mounted jewelry and rings.

We are in the process of moving to the Atlanta GA. area and will no longer own a jewelry store. After 32 years we have done it and been there.

Last month I went to schoool to become a licensed auctioneer in the State of Georgia. I have passed the school work but must go to Macon Ga. to take the GA state certification.

I can send you under separate cover the list of affiliations and organizations I belong.

I know by selling Diamonds over invoice I will invite criticism from the other Diamond sellers on and off this system. So be it. When the wholesalers joined the Internet they did not ask my permission.

Let us start by your requests.

Uncle Marty of course

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Welcome Uncle Marty.

I am a frequent poster and a retailer with very high service standards.

When I have a customer ask for a price mathc on an internet stoen I simply say I will get the same stone for the same price aqnd charge 1/2 my usual appraisal fee

But if you want to buy one of my cherry picked beauties, then this is the price - take it or leave it. After all I pay rent (6% of total sales) and knowledgable staff (and their training fees) to be nice to you, and make expresso coffee etc.

So welcome and well said

And about the Ebay Tifany ring - who can actually tell us the diamond is the original diamond from Tiffany? Is it even a diamond? And is the ring really original?
There is a value placed on trust !!!

 

[dognut]

I am playing "catch up" on this site as I have had 5 days of dog shows to coordinate hospitality and entertain the folks in Scottsdale, AZ. I finally received my ring - picked the stone, got the price down and the setting at a very good price. I cannot tell "Uncle Marty" enough of how this site educated us, led us, the value of the HCA , the wonder of Ideal cut stones - I will attempt to put a pic on the correct forum when I manage our digital camera better. The stone is a 3.1 something, AGS -0 , H, SI1 and a .6 on the HCA.We had it put on a thick , sandblasted yellow 18k with 4 huge platinum square raised prongs setting. It faces up so white it dazzled someone across our hospitality tent at the dog show - he came running over( a very funny guy to start with) screaming about my diamond! Now, there is always someone with a bigger diamond, but so many of them don't have the fire nor sparkle as my honkin' Ideal cut . AND I probably would not have had this if not for this educational site. We rejected at least 10 stones before we accepted one. I educated the jewelry salesperson and made her use Pricescope! She is hooked now, too. - and she was an old timer from a fancy Dallas store!
So, thank you for being there and Uncle Marty can learn a lot here , too - if he is willing.
Dognut

 

[Uncle Marty]

Good morning Cut Nut,
The following is not meant to find fault with your posting but it is to educate you and make you a better jeweler.

You spoke about charging less for an appraisal for a Diamond you are selling. Did you really mean what you said. You should never appraise what you are selling. An appraisal should be from an outside party and not done by the seller.

I would suggest that you join NAJA and find out the do and don't of appraisals.

Uncle Marty of course

 

[Uncle Marty]

Hi Cut nut,
You are right about questioning the Tiffany sale on e-Bay.

I too would like to see the information on e-Bay where the sale was listed.

I have known of people selling on e-bay claiming the items were made by Tiffany when in fact they were knockoffs.

Tiffany went after these sellers big time and had their inventory confiscated and the perps went to jail after paying heavy fines.

But e-Bay did nothing. All e-Bay does is collect fees for advertising on their website. They do not guarantee any items to be as represented.

Uncle Marty of course

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Uncle,

It is an amazing thing that jewellers were once considered to be amongst the most trustworthy pillars of society.
Today they are not.

I have 5 Jewellers Association of Australia registered valuers (the term used in Oz) and it is actually easily possible for those people to be objective, because I make the environemnt one where they know that our grading should never ever be questioned because 28 years of good name stands on it. To date we have never been challenged once on a grading, and we only use certified goods over .90cts (and often sell them for what we believe they are and not what the cert says).

And in any case I was discussing a particular scenario - appraising a flipped stone - lowest cost, sight unseen etc. There is very often something wrong with these stones because they are usually the cheapest in a dealers stock and the info on a cert (as we all know) is not enough to describe a diamond.

 

[Mara]

Garry....espresso coffee eh?

Yum.

Donuts?

 

[unlisted]

i actually purchased that ring via e-bay after educating myself for hours on end here. it is due to arrive friday. i have never even seen the ring in person{at tiffanys} but my girlfriend loves the style. i was going to ask on here if it was a good deal before i bid. then the bids starting pouring in..so i bought it. thanks

 

[Obsessed]

Unlisted,

glad to have another Lucida fan/buyer! Do you mind telling me what the stats are for the ring you bought and what price you won the auction at? I am just curious to know what the Lucida fetches on the secondary market even though I paid retail price. I know one of the Lucida auction ended with someone buying the ring at the 'buy it' now price of $9500! That was an incredible deal as long as the ring was authentic and in good shape. I remember seeing all the supporting documents on the auction page and they looked genuine. However, I was a little concerned that they didn't post a picture of the ring itself. Anyway, I hope yours arrive in expected condition... it will be very nice and your fiancee will be very very happy!

 

[unlisted]

im am the winner of THAT e-bay auction..