60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and price?

[jonsey]

OK, so I have been doing my homework. Got things narrowed down a bit: seems like there are 3 cutting styles that score under 2 on the HCA: 60/60, Near Tolk, and Tolk/AGS Ideal. Price difference is quite a bit. I have idealscopes of 4 diamonds. they are all at 8.3mm, all J. All are under 2 on the HCA.

Questions: I know a 60/60 style is cheaper. Overall, why is it less desirable, and will a layperson notice the difference? The price difference is significant. The AGS Ideal (Si2, with lots of twinning wisps) is still pricing out at $1300 more than the 60/60 VS2 diamonds. Some say that 60/60 diamonds are just as good: different, but just as good. Others say they are not preferable to a 61/56 or similar. Why/why not? What am I looking for in an idealscope specifically? Darkness under the crown?

Posting the idealscopes might help

1) 59.8/59.9 (60/60): $14,300 VS2
2) 60/59.9 (60/60): $14,350 VS2
3) 60.8/58: $15350 VS2 (no idealscope; they sent me the same one for the 60/59.9 diamond)
4) 62/55 $15200 Si2









FYI, I stopped looking at the suggestions on the Enchanted site, due to reputation of poor service. In case those of you who made suggestions there were wondering....

 

[John P]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I know a 60/60 style is cheaper. Overall, why is it less desirable, and will a layperson notice the difference?

I wouldn't call a well-cut 60-60 less desirable. It's a taste thing, where you'll get a slightly different look.

Here's why: All else equal, crown height goes down as the table gets larger. And, since 60-60 frequently have PA>Tolk and CA<Tolk, crown height is further reduced. So well-cut 60-60s are very bright diamonds, typically with less fire than a Tolkowsky make. 60-60s are best-cut with long lower halves, narrowing the pavilion mains (the engines driving light return). Paired with a shallower crown, the resulting scintillation is characterized by rapid/smaller flashes, where Tolks with higher crowns and shorter lower halves are characterized by larger/broadfire flashes. If you're comparing a top 60-60 with a top Tolk you can enjoy this character difference under showroom lighting. Away from bright spotlights, the quality of overall cutting and other details sustain the different looks in different situations.

The reason the average 60-60s is cheaper is because the performance "bullseye" for a top performing 60-60 cut is smaller than for Tolk. You can find many with very shallow crowns and deep pavilions, not planned for maximum light return but to facilitate a larger second-diamond from the same piece of rough by keeping the crown low. In general terms, Tolk makes command more behind industry doors, and that logically translates to retail.

1) 59.8/59.9 (60/60): $14,300 VS2
2) 60/59.9 (60/60): $14,350 VS2
3) 60.8/58: $15350 VS2 (no idealscope; they sent me the same one for the 60/59.9 diamond)
4) 62/55 $15200 Si2

The Ideal-Scopes all show strong brightness. With full measurements a bit more detail could be discerned.

RE darkness under the table: Those areas are caused by table reflection. As table size and pavilion depth increase, areas of table-reflection contrast increase too. That's why you see the darkness in the 60-60 ideal-scopes and not in the Tolk. It doesn't reduce brightness in actual viewing until the table gets pretty big and the pavilion pretty deep.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Not all 60/60 are created equal and it goes the same for tolk and near tolk.
The diamonds you posted all seem to be well cut from the Idealscope images, so it comes down to nuances from one to another best judged by comparison in person.

In general 60/60 are less contrasty and less firey but have more overall brightness and appear larger to some. But it really depends on the actual angles. I would post the grading reports and you may get more informed comprehensive opinions.

If you could swing it I'd order two and compare for yourself.

 

[John P]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Those Ideal-Scopes are cool and clear examples of table reflection differences. More, for anyone interested:

Diamond graders can look for the effect in darkfield illumination to judge pavilion depth. The larger the table reflection the deeper the pavilion. Table reflection is actually what the diamond "sees" looking up through the table. In cases where a dark camera lens (like above) or an unlighted face are above the diamond table it resolves as a dark ring. Table reflection gets bigger as the pavilion gets deeper...see the arrows outlining the effect in the simulations below.


As mentioned above, table reflection is simply a contrast nuance in most normal lighting conditions. It becomes more perceivable when the diamond is under diffused light or illuminated from the side, and as table and/or pavilion depth increase.

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Hi John,

Thank you for your detailed response. The idealscopes do look a bit different, especially the AGS Ideal.

First idealscope (60/60 stone) is 59.8/59/33/41

Second (also a 60/60) is 60.1/60/33.5/41

3rd is 62.3/54.8/35.1/40.7

Posted below is the idealscope and ASET for the Near Tolk 61/58 (it was the 3rd in the 4 I had originally listed). Gemologist liked that one less than the 60/60 next to it. The other 2 are sourced from a different vendor, so no side-by-sides on those. That 61/58 had the following angles:

60.6/58/33/41

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

What you are basically saying is, based on the idealscope posted, any of these could be a solid choice? Above that, you need to have a reference diamond to really know which you would prefer in terms of overall appearance? If that is the case, it is very good to know, as not coming from the same vendors, I can't compare all 4 side by side (based on symmetry, I think it would be between number 2 (60.1/60) and number 4 (AGS Ideal)

It is interesting the table reflection change between the first and 2nd idealscope, even though they are close to the same angles.

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

And the ASET for the 60.1/60 (number 2 as originally listed, also the 2nd idealscope posted). The facets look quite different than the 61/58 ASET I posted. Is this cutting style, angles, or both?

 

[HappyNewLife]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I have two,1.7 carat, G, SI1 diamonds (my fiance and I wanted matching rings-- we are a same-sex couple). Both are 60/60 stones, so they were a good deal. Both diamonds have excellent light return, which was important to me. I don't necessarily see much colorful fire from either of them, but honestly I wouldn't even know that diamonds did that if I hadn't spent years on PS. My fiance has no idea that she's missing out on a little colorful fire

I think that's pretty much what the price difference (assuming all other 4Cs and light return were identical) is -- less colorful fire

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I have two,1.7 carat, G, SI1 diamonds (my fiance and I wanted matching rings-- we are a same-sex couple). Both are 60/60 stones, so they were a good deal. Both diamonds have excellent light return, which was important to me. I don't necessarily see much colorful fire from either of them, but honestly I wouldn't even know that diamonds did that if I hadn't spent years on PS. My fiance has no idea that she's missing out on a little colorful fire

I think that's pretty much what the price difference (assuming all other 4Cs and light return were identical) is -- less colorful fire

OK, thank you for the layperson's feedback!

 

[John P]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Posted below is the idealscope and ASET for the Near Tolk 61/58 (it was the 3rd in the 4 I had originally listed). Gemologist liked that one less than the 60/60 next to it. The other 2 are sourced from a different vendor, so no side-by-sides on those. That 61/58 had the following angles: 60.6/58/33/41

I'd call it a 'tweener, especially depending on the rounding (presuming a GIA report)... I could actually be 60.6/58.4/32.8/41.1 rounded to the numbers above. Certainly the images make me believe it's closer in CA/PA angles and appearance to 60-60. In any event, I would not classify it as Near-Tolk, more of a Near-60-60.

And the ASET for the 60.1/60 (number 2 as originally listed, also the 2nd idealscope posted). The facets look quite different than the 61/58 ASET I posted. Is this cutting style, angles, or both?

Here is the 60.6/58/33/41 left - and the 60.1/60/33.5/41 right.

I find these makes to be close. From experience correlating images to diamonds I'd lean toward 60-60 performance for both. But as mentioned by H.O. above, "not all 60/60 are created equal and it goes the same for tolk and near tolk." So yes, the 58T is a 'tweener wandering in the land that lies between old Marcel and 47th street.

Yes, the table on the left is smaller. But in terms of contrast pattern/reflection and crown height they are very similar. Going deeper, you can see cut execution for the left diamond shows deviations from normal indexing and more inconsistencies in 3D cut precision than the right example. Negligible stuff in a "hey, look at the shiny diamonds" sense. But worthy of note in terms of technical craftsmanship.

By the bye, speaking of "not all created equal..." The AGS Ideal (the last IS in your original post) has lower halves, more like a 60-60, so it's something of a hybrid, though the crown is comparatively quite high and the AGS report doesn't round numbers, so the 40.7/35.1 are reliable.

All of the candidates have strong reflector images.

Above that, you need to have a reference diamond to really know which you would prefer in terms of overall appearance? If that is the case, it is very good to know, as not coming from the same vendors, I can't compare all 4 side by side (based on symmetry, I think it would be between number 2 (60.1/60) and number 4 (AGS Ideal)

That sounds Ideal to me (get it?).

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Posted below is the idealscope and ASET for the Near Tolk 61/58 (it was the 3rd in the 4 I had originally listed). Gemologist liked that one less than the 60/60 next to it. The other 2 are sourced from a different vendor, so no side-by-sides on those. That 61/58 had the following angles: 60.6/58/33/41

I'd call it a 'tweener, especially depending on the rounding (presuming a GIA report)... I could actually be 60.6/58.4/32.8/41.1 rounded to the numbers above. Certainly the images make me believe it's closer in CA/PA angles and appearance to 60-60. In any event, I would not classify it as Near-Tolk, more of a Near-60-60.

And the ASET for the 60.1/60 (number 2 as originally listed, also the 2nd idealscope posted). The facets look quite different than the 61/58 ASET I posted. Is this cutting style, angles, or both?

Here is the 60.6/58/33/41 left - and the 60.1/60/33.5/41 right.

I find these makes to be close. From experience correlating images to diamonds I'd lean toward 60-60 performance for both. But as mentioned by H.O. above, "not all 60/60 are created equal and it goes the same for tolk and near tolk." So yes, the 58T is a 'tweener wandering in the land that lies between old Marcel and 47th street.

Yes, the table on the left is smaller. But in terms of contrast pattern/reflection and crown height they are very similar. Going deeper, you can see cut execution for the left diamond shows deviations from normal indexing and more inconsistencies in 3D cut precision than the right example. Negligible stuff in a "hey, look at the shiny diamonds" sense. But worthy of note in terms of technical craftsmanship.

By the bye, speaking of "not all created equal..." The AGS Ideal (the last IS in your original post) has lower halves, more like a 60-60, so it's something of a hybrid, though the crown is comparatively quite high and the AGS report doesn't round numbers, so the 40.7/35.1 are reliable.

All of the candidates have strong reflector images.

Above that, you need to have a reference diamond to really know which you would prefer in terms of overall appearance? If that is the case, it is very good to know, as not coming from the same vendors, I can't compare all 4 side by side (based on symmetry, I think it would be between number 2 (60.1/60) and number 4 (AGS Ideal)

That sounds Ideal to me (get it?).

Yes, it does sound Ideal! Pun intended. Thank you for the detailed analysis. I understand quite a bit more now.

 

[luvdajules]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

This is a super interesting post and discussion. I just wanted to throw into the mix my diamond purchase experience, my stone is an AGS000 near ideal type with longer lower girdle facets, so a hybrid type (just over 2ct J/Si2), much like your #4 option. It also has a small table and high crown that tends to favor more fire when light conditions are conducive. I must say, after 3/4 of year of owning it that I really love the colored flashes off my diamond and see it more than I thought I would (any retail or grocery store, restaurants, hotels/lobby, elevators). I think if this diamond didn't happen my way, I would have sought an ideal cut stone with 75% lgf for bigger flashes of color. But that would have meant probably an extra $3-4k to my purchase. It's all about striking the right balance of things, including the 5th C of cost. Overall, I'm very pleased with my diamond!

I was recently at a water park where a couple friends noticed my newish diamond cause it was so sparkly and colorful (also being exceptionally clean in a water park environment with lots of multi point lighting like big box stores).

You have the time to look around, so don't rush any decision.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I agree with Luvdjules that diamonds that exhibit great fire are really magical. But it is fleeting and hard to replicate. It is something that is not easy to appreciate unless lighting conditions are right. It just sort of happens when everything comes together. The best way to get it is to understand the cut and the potential the cut provides for observing fire.

Typically when you are comparing stones in a jewelry store situation your attention will be focused more on brightness and scintillation, color, clarity and size differences. And of course Cost.

You've received some outstanding guidance in understanding your various options in terms of cut quality and reading of the reflector images. In terms of making a final selection of a diamond with great light performance and beauty, whether you shift towards the fiery side or the brightness side, make sure the clarity features don't interfere to any appreciable degree. Sometimes that can be a little hard to determine for even a fairly experienced consumer. Lower clarities should be carefully scrutinized.

 

[luvdajules]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

quick search, I found this one from b2c jewels, since you have time to investigate...sorry must ask for IS or aset and other info. Maybe worth a look? about the same as #4 option
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4721163-2.08-carat-Round-diamond-I-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=4721163&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

 

[pyramid]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Very interesting about the table reflections. I would like to ask about a small diamond 60/60 type I own. I have not looked at it in a while and know the pattern of stars is not right/symmetrical but I have noticed the dark ring as shown except I only see half of it not the whole circle. Why is that, I wondered for a while if it was not set evenly in it's setting?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I agree with Luvdjules that diamonds that exhibit great fire are really magical. But it is fleeting and hard to replicate. It is something that is not easy to appreciate unless lighting conditions are right. It just sort of happens when everything comes together. The best way to get it is to understand the cut and the potential the cut provides for observing fire.

Typically when you are comparing stones in a jewelry store situation your attention will be focused more on brightness and scintillation, color, clarity and size differences. And of course Cost.

You've received some outstanding guidance in understanding your various options in terms of cut quality and reading of the reflector images. In terms of making a final selection of a diamond with great light performance and beauty, whether you shift towards the fiery side or the brightness side, make sure the clarity features don't interfere to any appreciable degree. Sometimes that can be a little hard to determine for even a fairly experienced consumer. Lower clarities should be carefully scrutinized.

Very important and I just wanted to be sure this was noted. I would not consider SI2 in a 2 ct stone (or any size) unless the vendor is one who will check light performance and be sure the inclusions are not interfering. You are not going to get that from the drop shipper type vendors, usually.

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I agree with Luvdjules that diamonds that exhibit great fire are really magical. But it is fleeting and hard to replicate. It is something that is not easy to appreciate unless lighting conditions are right. It just sort of happens when everything comes together. The best way to get it is to understand the cut and the potential the cut provides for observing fire.

Typically when you are comparing stones in a jewelry store situation your attention will be focused more on brightness and scintillation, color, clarity and size differences. And of course Cost.

You've received some outstanding guidance in understanding your various options in terms of cut quality and reading of the reflector images. In terms of making a final selection of a diamond with great light performance and beauty, whether you shift towards the fiery side or the brightness side, make sure the clarity features don't interfere to any appreciable degree. Sometimes that can be a little hard to determine for even a fairly experienced consumer. Lower clarities should be carefully scrutinized.

Very important and I just wanted to be sure this was noted. I would not consider SI2 in a 2 ct stone (or any size) unless the vendor is one who will check light performance and be sure the inclusions are not interfering. You are not going to get that from the drop shipper type vendors, usually.

Yes, I was thinking the same. What vendors would you trust? Whiteflash, GOG, James Allen? Others? A drop-ship stone has to be VS2 or better, or have a pic of an eye clean Si1

 

[John P]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Very interesting about the table reflections. I would like to ask about a small diamond 60/60 type I own. I have not looked at it in a while and know the pattern of stars is not right/symmetrical but I have noticed the dark ring as shown except I only see half of it not the whole circle. Why is that, I wondered for a while if it was not set evenly in it's setting?

It could be any number of things. First, one must have the correct light, the correct distance & orientation of head/body over the diamond and a steady hand to see the crown contrast pattern. Be sure you're evenly obstructing the light. Many times our body shades one side of the diamond (not just our head). That can exaggerate contrast on one side... With that said, I know you know what you're doing. If all is set up correctly the uneven pattern could be a matter of cut-inconsistency, a tilted table or - as you say - a couple of degrees offset in the ring.

 

[John P]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

A drop-ship stone has to be VS2 or better, or have a pic of an eye clean Si1

I'm with diamondseeker on this one. It's not just about clarity. This is about every part of the diamond. Sellers who don't inspect inventory before selling it may not protect you from 'lucky' grades (the diamond received G but most would call it H...same with clarity), undocumented haze, brown or green tint and other things the report doesn't disclose. Grading labs are nice. But the top jewelry professionals add a layer of expert protection by only selling goods they personally verify for accuracy in all areas.

 

[pyramid]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

Thank you John Pollard for answering my question.

 

[Victoria10]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

I have to agree with examining the SI2. I lucked up, but it wasn't easy and my jeweler worked really hard to help (according to my husband). 60-60 can be just as gorgeous but not all the same just like tolk(which i did have with my upgrade before this one). Mine has hearts and arrows when seen under the viewer and HCA 1.4. My husband was the lucky one to see the hearts. Imho the arrows really make the diamond light up and i do get fire from that too. But it is shorter. However, the diamond is eye blinding and can hurt my eyes sometimes from the bright flashes. I actually find the bright flashes rather cool and at night I can still see the diamond. So when he text me it was going to be 60-60 I quickly googled it and saw someone else posting the same time on pricescope. Thank you happynewlife for posting! So i guess what i am saying is when you get beyond high clarities and ideal you really have to see the diamond in person. My jeweler just so happen to be one of pricescopes vendors and that is where i got my first upgrade. We were able to view the diamond in person and they were able to still ship very quickly since we live out of state now.

 

[jonsey]

Re: 60/60 vs Near Tolk vs AGS Ideal cut: performance and pri

A drop-ship stone has to be VS2 or better, or have a pic of an eye clean Si1

I'm with diamondseeker on this one. It's not just about clarity. This is about every part of the diamond. Sellers who don't inspect inventory before selling it may not protect you from 'lucky' grades (the diamond received G but most would call it H...same with clarity), undocumented haze, brown or green tint and other things the report doesn't disclose. Grading labs are nice. But the top jewelry professionals add a layer of expert protection by only selling goods they personally verify for accuracy in all areas.

Thank you for the follow-up. James Allen has that Si2 diamond, they verified it as eye clean and very brilliant, lots of different colors, I assume they are trustworthy as a PS vendor? If so, I am leaning that direction. Of course, I need to see it in person to make a final determination. It would be nice to get both in here, although I might have to bump up my credit line to do that....those are 2 awfully large checks to write!