60:60 and David from Diamondsbylauren

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

David have you ever run a 60% table and 60% depth through HCA?

You will find we agree.
I just punched in a 31 degree crown and 41 degree pavilion - HCA 1.6, C34.5 P40.7 gives HCA 1.2 and C38 P40 gives HCA 1.6.

I do not think we need to argue about that.
But many 60:60 stones have slightly shallow crowns combined with fairly deep pavilions - The GIA found in a survey of 67,621 that 29% had table sizes 61 to 63%, crowns from 31 to 35.9 and pavilion angles from 41 to 42.4. Maybe 2% of those stones fall into Good HCA ranges

I have graphed the data from this GIA info and, assuming normal distributions, a typical crown and pavilion for a 60% table, 60% depth with a thin to medium girdle would be around 34 crown and 41.5 pavilion. When we look at typical GIA graded stones this is in fact what we see - it is also a sweet spot for cutters to maximise yeild and produce stuff the market accepts.

Now i take my hat of to you and others who maybe avoid this ''typical'' rubbish David. But you know how to avoid it - consumers do not.

 

[niceice]

We feel that it is important to "note" that while the traditional 60/60 combination "may" yield beautiful diamonds from time to time, it produces "average" diamonds more times than not. To maximize the odds of success using this principle, it is still important to obtain the crown and pavilion angle measurements and look for diamonds with pavilion angles which often fall within the parameters for the zero ideal cut rating... It's a lot of work for a small chance of success in most cases which is why we focus our selection efforts on diamonds within the zero ideal cut rating because it increases (not guarantees) the odds of finding a beautiful diamond in a shorter period of time.

That "60/60 ideal cut" is anything but... With a little luck it might fall within the proportions range for the AGS-2 Very Good proportions rating, but it could also be an AGS-10 Very Poor so do your homework before taking the plunge!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Garry- we would probably agree on "nice make"- this is true.

I'm sure that all your clients , as do those of NiceIce- get shown excellent stones.
Regardless of how you guys do it, your clients feel comfortable with your judgement.

I've had a pair of 1.095tw G/SI2 AGS 0 stones...forever. That's because when people are looking for AGS 0 cut, there are great places like y'all to show it to them. My compliments to Robin & Todd- the consistency of your inventory is truly impressive.

Garry and I agree that 60/60 can yeild an awesome cut.
Although there is a trend towards the 55-57% tables, there are still many people who cut amazing 60/60 diamonds.

Let's also not forget that some of the diamonds that Garry mentioned scoring well on HCA are going to trade at about 15% less than an AGS0.
There's something to be said for that too.

As much as I love computers and sophosticated tools, I use my eye to buy.

I still feel that the buyer's eye too will always be the final arbiter.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 5/9/2004 9:28:02 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:


Let's also not forget that some of the diamonds that Garry mentioned scoring well on HCA are going to trade at about 15% less than an AGS0.
There's something to be said for that too.

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If I read David's posts correctly, I believe this "value" is a big part of his liking of 60/60 stones. I think this argument is a very valid one. -also, a good value in terms of spread - basically - good bang for the buck - and still a decent stone.

Is this a correct read?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 5/10/2004 11:06:45 AM fire&ice wrote:

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On 5/9/2004 9:28:02 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:






Let's also not forget that some of the diamonds that Garry mentioned scoring well on HCA are going to trade at about 15% less than an AGS0.
There's something to be said for that too.

----------------

If I read David's posts correctly, I believe this 'value' is a big part of his liking of 60/60 stones. I think this argument is a very valid one. -also, a good value in terms of spread - basically - good bang for the buck - and still a decent stone.

Is this a correct read?



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Yes and no- I genuinely prefer many 60/60 stones to "ideal" cut stones- regardless of price.

The fact that there is a price difference is simply "gravy"

I never reccomentd buying a diamond solely for price- this usually ends up to be throwing good money after bad.

 

[fire&ice]

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I never reccomentd buying a diamond solely for price- this usually ends up to be throwing good money after bad.
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I agree. But, to me price & value for your money are two very different things.

 

[niceice]

Thank you David

We hope that you realize that we "are saying" that it is "extremely" possible to find non-ideal cut diamonds which rival the visual performance of ideal cut diamonds, it's just a lot trickier and more involved than we personally feel like dealing with on a daily basis... Time is money and all that.

And if we're not mistaken, isn't part of the reason Garry introduced the HCA was to assist people with selecting non-ideal cut diamonds? Garry?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Correct R&T.
The inneficiency of cutting to specific parameters the way you guys (and David and all the other dealers collectively) buy is crazy. It has resulted in billions of dollars of waste grinding diamonds that should have 30 degree crowns (by nature) into 33 or 34 dgerees and the same for stones that should naturally have 37 degree crowns and 50% tables.

It is possible to optimise the beauty and the weight return on diamonds. but to do so we need to change all your dinasaur attitudes. Unfortunately that includes you to R&T. I have tried all by myself - but it will be GIA and AGS and other labs that will make the change in climate that I need to flourish

(BTW I AM sober as I write this)

 

[valeria101]

Well... I may not beong to this thread, but here goes:

Diamond cutting is definitely not the only walk of life where most rules of thumb ("60/60", "below 40" and any mechanical choice of parameters) are inefficient and result in adeverse adaptive behaviour over time (say, the extreme versions of 60/60 stones cited in the tutorial here or those strange stones cut to AGS0 proportions and odd minor facets as the example MDX posted).

So... it would be great to throw lots of (available) technology at each piece of rough and get the optimal balance of cut weight and light return out of it. Is this even beginning to be economically feasible for, say, stones below 3 carats and the top color&clarity combination ? Leaving demand as is...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is an example of a Sarin planning machine and the cut quality of the first plan to cut a piece of rough has been improved in the second screen. In many cases like this the yield can be improved along with the stones performance.

This DiamCalc technology is being used by smart innovative polishers like some who attended the conference in Moscow.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is an Indian planner that is designed to work on partly fashioned rough. This stone has had its table ploished, and then it has been bruted round by grinding it on another stone in a lathe.
Now we can easily play with the crown and pavilion angles. The planning scanner comes with DiamCalc and you can use the ideal-scope live to get both the best yield and the best look. In this case there was no great weight improvement - but the cut is far superior.

So you guys, - would you think that things like this have a place?
And as to what type of proportions people cut - well have a look at what gets a good HCA score - there is a multitude of possabilities.For the cutters reading this - sawn stone tops go well with shallow crowns and deep pavilions (yes - 60% tables too). Rounded makeables often like to be cut into small table steep crowns (but they must loose 1-2% extra off the pavilion).

Hope this helps

 

[CaptAubrey]

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On 5/11/2004 2:53:53 AM valeria101 wrote:





So... it would be great to throw lots of (available) technology at each piece of rough and get the optimal balance of cut weight and light return out of it. Is this even beginning to be economically feasible for, say, stones below 3 carats and the top color&clarity combination ? Leaving demand as is...

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actually, we’re there already. modern diamond cutting has become so sophisticated that the cutter can determine the exact weight and proportions of the finished stone before it has been cut. the polishing machine determines the table size, angles, girdle thickness, final weight, etc. just remember that diamond cutting is not about producing the most beautiful stone but maximizing financial return on the rough. the difference in final value means a larger, badly cut stone may be worth more than a smaller super-ideal.

 

[niceice]

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On 5/11/2004 1:44:36 AM Cut Nut wrote:

Correct R&T.
The inneficiency of cutting to specific parameters the way you guys (and David and all the other dealers collectively) buy is crazy. It has resulted in billions of dollars of waste grinding diamonds that should have 30 degree crowns (by nature) into 33 or 34 dgerees and the same for stones that should naturally have 37 degree crowns and 50% tables.

It is possible to optimise the beauty and the weight return on diamonds. but to do so we need to change all your dinasaur attitudes. Unfortunately that includes you to R&T. I have tried all by myself - but it will be GIA and AGS and other labs that will make the change in climate that I need to flourish

(BTW I AM sober as I write this) ----------------

Ah but we "buy by the numbers" because "most" of the cutters cut for weight and not beauty and thus about the only way to force the issue with the cutters is to try and hold them to a specific set of parameters... If we told them "cut for beauty and we'll buy it" you would shudder at the results... Been there, done that, it doesn't work. But telling them that we will only buy production within a set of established suppliers and rejecting everything produced outside of those parameters has resulted in some very beautiful stones... Understand that our purpose is to buy beautiful, well performing diamonds on behalf of our clients.

The upcoming GIA cut grade... We hope that the results of this study are more conclusive than the last "study" that they published... You know the one that Marty blew apart within 24 hours...

 

[diamondsbylauren]

What I'm reading here is that the folks who actually merchandise the diamonds- the dealers that sell them to the end user- need to be extremely careful in their selection.


Robin and Todd have used certain techniques on the cutters they buy from, and have gotten results.


Our cutters are - to be brutally honest- way smarter than I'll ever be in the knowledge of diamond cutting, and getting the best return on their money at that level. As someone here pointed out- if you'd invested $2million on rough diamonds, you'd be far more interested in profit than beauty.


Folks like R&T who have developed a great market for these premium cut stones will assure that some cutters will indeed cut to these proportions- it WILL make monitary sense.




But let's not forget that diamond cutting is STILL a very primitive art- especially if we're NOT talking about H&A- which is really the only reason to use these high tech tools- to get H&A RBC's.




The guy who cuts our radiant diamonds is so low tech- but he's truly an artist. This guy does not even know how to turn a computer on ( I know, simply rub it's hard drive heheh)




A lot of the best cutters use their hand eyes heart and mind to produce amazing diamonds

Wouldn't you hate to see this art lost because everyone went to computers to tell them how to cut?


Of course as much as Garry, or anyone else wants this to happen- the realities of the market- and the fact that a huge majority of the diamonds cut would not even be applicable to this conversation ensures that many cutters will continue to use the old fashioned way.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You are right David, there is a place for the old guys with a good eye and lots of skill.
Did you see my other thread about the oval repolish by one of the old masters?

And here is one of the factories producing 'Belgian' and 'Russian' H&A's. They produce thousands of stones a day.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

COOOOL!


IN my professional life ( till H&A) there was only one BEST cut- and that was Russian.


Till today I maintian connection with a guy who cuts there.




I guess we should also point out for a lot of folks reading who do not know about cutting ( polishing) rough diamonds: The shape of the rough diamond has a great deal to do with what will be done with it.


In the case of many Fancy Shapes, the rough diamond is an odd shape, making an RBC impossible- that's primarily when the type of bench I've shown comes into play.




Years ago, I worked for a South African Sight Holder.


They polished most of the 1.00's a smaller over there- labor is half of NYC rate.


But the larger stones were often sent over here so the owner could sit in on every part of the decision making process.




Garry, would you say that the type of operation you've shown us- they are "mass producing" - is likely working on smaller sizes- with special care taken for the larger more valuable stones?

 

[Magnum]

Hi,

This question is from David of daimondsbylauren, or anyone else that wants to chime in:

First let me say that I definitely respect your opinion and am interested to learn from your experience. There is a lot of discussion on this forum about AGS ideal cut diamonds and H&A's, which results in a lot of guidance for those looking to purchase one of these diamonds. However, there isn't a lot of guidance for those looking to purchase 60/60 diamonds. I suppose that you could use the same tools, like getting crown/pavilion angles, idealscope pictures, brilliancescope results, etc., but is there anything else you look at when picking out well cut 60/60 diamonds? How do you purchase diamonds for your inventory? I know you've said in the past that you do it visually, but how do you narrow down the diamonds that you bring in to look at? Are you just fortunate enough to know your manufacturer well enough that you know the quality of the diamonds they produce and have them send whatever they have? What advice would you give to a consumer? I know you've said before to find a vendor you trust and have them be your eyes. But what if a person isn't comfortable with that and wants to evaluate the cut for themselves? Are there any specific guidelines for a 60/60 diamond that a consumer could use to narrow down there choices? Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

David wrote "Garry, would you say that the type of operation you've shown us- they are "mass producing" - is likely working on smaller sizes- with special care taken for the larger more valuable stones?"

Kaps & Chips in an average size range of 2.5/ct. and price range is measured in US$100's. So the goods are mostly single stones, with smalls from off cuts. And yes they also have a business in 'specials', as do many DTC sightholders.

BTW David you should try using HCA to buy your 60:60's. You will find you can extend your range out past where you thought possible (IE BUY CHEAPER AND SELL FOR MORE)

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Jeez Garry, you're persistant if nothing else.


No, thank you- I buy using my eyes only.


I'm sure there's value in it for the reasons that have been listed here so many times- but not for me.




If it makes you feel better- I never even ask for Sarin reports- but my core business is not in the type of stones where these tihings are particuarly useful.




Truth be told, I'm very lucky in that I can buy stones based on my "seat of the pants" feeling


This is not always possible for a diamond business. It really depends on what one specializes in and how one markets and represents it.

 

[niceice]

There IS a big difference however between buying diamonds on-line and buying diamonds in-person, the diamonds we sell face to face to our customers in our store are not always "absolute" zero ideal cut because people can see the stones, consider their options and make a decision based upon what they see with their eyes and what they are willing to pay for... Most of our in-store customers buy the same precise diamonds that we sell on-line, but some opt for larger tables and such because they prefer a spreadier stone... The challenge is that when somebody is buying on-line, they can only buy the paper so to speak because they can not see the diamond. As you might expect, we are as precise in our selection of non-ideals as we are in our selection of the precise ideal cut diamonds that we are known for, but those stones are few and far between and really require a hands-on approach. Our concern with this thread is not the validity of the fact that non-ideal cut diamonds can be beautiful, but rather that people might fall under the impression that it's easy to find such stones here on the internet when most of the stones represented on-line within that category are going to be seriously lacking in performance because the majority are cut for weight and profit as opposed to beauty.

BTW: a lot of the ideal cut diamonds entering the market today are produced using some pretty cool robotic cutting techniques David... Sarin and OGI both produce a tool which enables the cutters to evaluate a diamond and consider several different cutting options and the yield from each option before cutting the stone! Technology is changing everything and making it more affordable than ever to produce the ideal cut diamonds that we're so fond of...

Oh by the way, when your cutter finally does figure out how to turn that computer on, make sure that he knows that the "A" drive isn't a credit card terminal... Robin keeps trying to use it to make on-line purchases

Oh man, I'm "gonna" pay for that one!

 

[eyesoftexas]

As a consumer who has bought stones from David via the internet, I can attest that he has a very keen eye. My hearts and arrow round brilliant cut was also bought via a pricescope dealer with strict parameters/brilliance scope measurements all the right angles yada yada yada. Looking back at it I think my eyes can not tell the difference between the two stones one which is ideal cut and the other has to be close to ideal but selected with different methods. And since diamonds are something you need to see to appreciate their beauty I prefer the eyeball method. As a consumer I want to talk to the dealer and ask which of the stones are the visual best performers I think this saves so much time and the results turned out to be the same in my case.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 5/11/2004 10:44:51 PM eyesoftexas wrote:

Looking back at it I think my eyes can not tell the difference between the two stones one which is ideal cut and the other has to be close to ideal but selected with different methods. ------

And therein lies the bugaboo. My experience has been the same. The miniscule differences between the yada yada yads stones & a stone with a very good make are just that. The premium not worth it UNLESS buying sight unseen.
Even then, maybe not.