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Pandora II

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To be honest I really think you two need to get a cleaning lady.

I am seriously untidy (FI is pretty bad too) and when I am tired I am not interested in vacuuming, tidying up, washing up etc etc. I have never in the last 3 years taken the vacuum cleaner out of the cupboard.

Solution - we pay someone else to do it for us. I come home on Monday night and the house is spotless and all the ironing is done.

Result - Clean and tidy house and no rows.

It''s so not worth getting wound up over dust...

If your husband is stubborn and set in his ways (which so many are) you will just wear yourself out and get nowhere. He won''t change and you need to start working out how you will work with his way of being.
 

nytemist

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Lots of good points were made here... like you alj, I am far more blunt and to the point. DH is can be kind of mousy and it really takes a lot for him to stand up and say soemthing if someone/somethings pushes him too far. I hold my tounge on that most of the time. (wrong dish at a restaurant, but he won''t say anything) Long ago, that one of the things he said he really liked about me, that I showed him how easy it is to realy speak your mind and got him out of his wallflower shell.

So last night when we got home, I washed the handful of dishes that have been there since Sunday. He comes into the kitchen and asked "hey didn''t you ask me to do that?" I said yes, but they are still sitting here. He says yes I know I can be lazy about certain things. Then he makes a joke about how maybe it''s a disorder- how he can look at something that needs to be done but chooses not to do it. He also acknowledges the fact that this behavior doesn''t make me happy. He says you are so good to me, I don''t know how to get better at that in return. I said maybe talking to someone will start to improve things. He''s iffy on that, since, as he says, we just got married. I said have you noticed that talking about whatever subjuect seems to get difficult? He says yes and leaves the room.

I think I will anyway. Maybe we shoud have waited longer before getting married. But I didn''t know there would be such a big shift in demeanor once we were in the same space.
 

KimberlyH

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nytemist,

I think seeing someone alone is a step in the right direction...and perhaps will inspire him to join you at some point (hopefully sooner rather than later). Being married is work, but day to day occurances, tasks, etc. shouldn''t always result in you vs. him. You asked when the "he''s driving me mental stage" would stop and I don''t think there will ever be a time when a habit or two of one partner won''t annoy the other, but most of the time those annoyances should be shrug-off-able.
We have a rule in our house "If you don''t like the way I do something, do it yourself." It has avoided a lot of fights. When one of us starts bugging the other about how we are accomplishing a task we simply say "If you don''t..." and either walk away and let the other person complete it or wait for the bugger to go away.

I hate dirty dishes left in the sink, he doesn''t care, so after dinner I do dishes, etc. He wants countertops wiped down every day, I don''t care, so he wipes down countertops. It''s not his responsibility to do things my way, nor mine to do them his.

It''s all about finding balance and being kind, because this is the person I''ve choosen to spend my life with, annoying habits and all, and it''s up to me to make this life as enjoyable as I can.

Good luck to you!
 

zoebartlett

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My FI have lived together for a year and a half. Neither one of us are neat freaks but I think in general, messes bother me more. As far as dishes go, we have an agreement: I unload the dishes and put them away. He loads them into the dishwasher, puts soap in (yes, he really considers that step two of the dish cleaning process
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), and turns it on (step three). This works well for us.

I clean the kitchen counter much more frequently that I would like but it really takes no time at all to do. My FI takes out the trash. I clean the bathroom and he takes care of the litter box. I dust and vacuum - my FI never does these things. We do our own laundry but occasionally I''ll do a load for him if I have time.

It took a long time to finally come to an agreement that we could both live with. We still have arguments occasionally about who should do what, but we work it out. His office just got relocated to Boston and we live an hour+ north of the city. I have a MUCH shorter drive than he does and I''m home early enough that I can pitch in more.

This post is turning out to be much longer than I had intended it to be. Basically, if you compromise as best you can and keep open discussions about things going, than that can do wonders for a relationship.
 

aljdewey

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Date: 6/16/2007 8:25:43 PM
Author: zoebartlett

His office just got relocated to Boston and we live an hour+ north of the city. I have a MUCH shorter drive than he does and I''m home early enough that I can pitch in more.
Zoe - you sound like you might be in my backyard! Where are you located?
 

Kit

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Okay, I haven't read everyone's post due to time, but I am sure all have made excellent points.

Here's what I would say:

1) pick your battles

Not every thing needs to be a drop dead conflict. I think you two may be in a power struggle and one way to break this toxic cycle is to stop engaging in conflict over everything that you find to be a bother about him. Pick 2 or 3 things tops and make those your key issues, ignore/tolerate everything else as "warts and all"

2) this is about making each other happy--find a list of things that you each can do for each other to fulfill deep emotional needs and set about doing them

For him this may be having lots of sex, cooking good meals, learning more about his favorite sport...whatever it is that he needs that really makes him feel loved and cared for and a priority in your life. Teach by example so that you put a lot of energy into these things and then ask him after a while to do the same for your key emotional needs, which may include cleaning. At times, at first, it may seem like you are having sex so that he will wash the dishes, but sometimes it is better to do this than to fight a ton about it.

3) learn that he doesn't have to be exactly like you--this is very hard but sometimes doing things by a different standard is okay as long as it is functional and you're able to conduct your day to day life in a healthy manner

Okay, so things don't have to be totally organized. Start small. He's been living in pretty bad disorganization for a while so just get him to be better about one or two areas. He may also not have any organizational skills, I mean it's not like we're born with those or anything! Sad but true. He will get better over time. I thought this would never be true about my DF but he has improved immensely over the 4+ years we've been living together.

4) accept that there are some things that you will just do, and some things he will do--are there things he does exclusively that you dont' do at all? It's easy to write him off when you're pissed, but really think about what he is contributing, even if it's something like keeping the TiVO up to date or making sure the Brita is filled all the time

For example, I will always be the one to buy the plane tickets. For a long time I was pissed about it like he should be doing 50% of the plane ticket reservations. But now I see that he is just not good at that, and he is really good at keeping our wine cabinets stocked with great choices and bringing home fun things from the store which we enjoy. Lean to your strengths and encourage him to do the same.

5) I know everyone here has encouraged counseling, but I must stress my opinion is that counseling doesn't work unless you are ready for it. If he's not ready and willing to listen and change, then it's a waste of time and money. JMHO.

6) Re: his disengagement from discussions, I think your criticizing him has left him numb. He may be experiencing your criticisms as rejection. He may be feeling low self esteem and like he can't please you. You might want to look in to changing the way you deliver criticism to be constructive and positive in stead of negative only. Think of how you would try to motivate and inspire one of your employees to perform better, and try that with him.
 

monarch64

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this whole thread is why our elders are always giving us great advice...it takes a lifetime of experience in marriage to be able to explain to the younger crowd what it''s like, and to help out on certain issues.

I read through this whole entire thread and still know I will never have the perfect marriage...nor can I relate what I''ve learned to him and expect to have a better marriage in the morning, but as usual I have gained some insight which I will bring to my marriage inadvertently, and hopefully that will benefit the both of us.

Nytemist: here''s hoping you and your DH have discussed things even further and your marriage is a bit more peaceful/harmonius now...I really wish you the best, ane this is coming from a girl who doesn''t have one a those perfect "knot" marriages from the get-go...!

You take care, now.
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diamondfan

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I think communication is important, and I hear you when you say you feel a bit mislead. Would it have mattered to you if he said this was just his way and he would not ever change? I think I might be annoyed too if I felt that I had expressed my wishes clearly and was told, yes, I get it, and I will do thus and such and then it did not happen. I also think you have to pick your battles, being different at driving as long as he is safe would not totally bug me but basic cleanliness being lax would. (though I am a bit of a slob sometimes too, I am super organized though and hate dishes left in the sink etc. I might not get a pile of laundry immediately in the drawers but I am not going to like seeing three days worth of plates piling up or laundry not getting done).

Marriage is about compromise on a certain level, since two people are joining both literally and figuratively. You do not want to become a totally different person, nor should you have to, but yet, to live peaceably, each person must yield, but how it is done is so critical. You can nag or you can use other means that helps the other person make shifts without feeling picked on. And when you see those shifts, however slight, you feel less resentful because you are seeing the efforts. This is sometimes why living together beforehand can give a glimpse of things to come, you see the person a bit more fully than if you are on a date and go home to your own place. Not always true but it does help. I believe in love, but being able to live together well is important too. And honestly, a grown man who could not do basic clean up stuff would bother me, it shows a lack of respect for his surroundings that might be tough to take. Of course I do not know him, and maybe this is just a quirk of his, and he is totally efficient and organized elsewhere. I just assume you do not want to nag and he does not want to be nagged, so what is the best solution?

Sometimes there is an inequity in how things get done, and what you might not like might work great for your best friend and her guy, or what you can deal with might be intolerable to your cousin...there is not one right or wrong, chores do NOT have to be 50-50 splits. You have to both come to agreement on what is fair and reasonable, taking into account your own personalities. Maybe that would help. And maybe he just does not care about it, so maybe you could compromise and hire cleaning help...so he can see how important it is. If you have to spend your free time cleaning you cannot be doing other better things....sometimes that helps clarify things.

You might also say, Honey, it makes me feel X when you tell me you will do something and you do not. Certain things just have to be attended to, so what makes the most sense so we can get them done and you do not feel nagged and I do not feel disappointed? Take some of the onus on you, but do not let him off the hook totally...he is an adult, so he had to know what your expectations were in terms of this stuff. I also agree with timeframes and more specific requests. "Can you please empty the trash and sweep the floor now?" To which he can say, "Let me just watch the end of the Masters". You can say fine, and when the Masters ends, you can give him a few minutes, if he has not started, get him and say, the Masters is over, thanks for getting on the trash and sweeping now, and sort of lead him to the kitchen. If he still isn't budging, I think you can say, Honey, you said you would do those two things when the Masters ended, which it has. Do you mind going to do it now before you get involved in something else?

Sometimes if I just really state WHY I want something done now as opposed to his timing, he might not agree or like it, but he does it for me because it matters to ME. It is that simple, he might totally ignore it were it not for me, but since I asked and it means something to me, he makes the effort even though he does not care either way. Also, have you just offered to drive when you go out, if that would make you feel a bit more in control? (not just at night)...
 

nytemist

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I''m really not harping on him every single day. Usually on the weekend, when things needs to be cleaned, is when I ask him for help. Like ''hey, I''m going to clean the bathroom, could you please do the kitchen counters?" He''ll say ok, but not do it. That is what drives me crazy. Later on, or the next day I end up doing it myself anyway.

It isn''t about a power struggle. I just would like a decent place to live. I am a neat freak, but I know I had to give that up. I mean the basics, like please remember to move the distortion pedal for the guitar from the middle of the floor so it won''t be tripped on. Really basic stuff. Everything doesn''t have to spotless, just picked up. I''d be fine with that. I cleaned again this weekend, didn''t bother asking for help, but he says to me "I could have helped you". BUt there was no initiative to do so. He has admitted that he liked it when it was just him and the cats, so there is a whole other realm of issues going on, I''m now learning. It almost seems like he didn''t realize that marriage means having to share with someone else. We''ll see how the week goes, I''m going to read some recommendations of people to talk to.
 

rainbowtrout

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Is there any way you guys could move to a bigger place so he could have a room where he can be messy? Or if you get a house, the basement could be his space and he keeps it confined down there?
 

Kit

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Date: 6/18/2007 10:22:55 AM
Author: nytemist
I''m really not harping on him every single day. Usually on the weekend, when things needs to be cleaned, is when I ask him for help. Like ''hey, I''m going to clean the bathroom, could you please do the kitchen counters?'' He''ll say ok, but not do it. That is what drives me crazy. Later on, or the next day I end up doing it myself anyway.

It isn''t about a power struggle. I just would like a decent place to live. I am a neat freak, but I know I had to give that up. I mean the basics, like please remember to move the distortion pedal for the guitar from the middle of the floor so it won''t be tripped on. Really basic stuff. Everything doesn''t have to spotless, just picked up. I''d be fine with that. I cleaned again this weekend, didn''t bother asking for help, but he says to me ''I could have helped you''. BUt there was no initiative to do so. He has admitted that he liked it when it was just him and the cats, so there is a whole other realm of issues going on, I''m now learning. It almost seems like he didn''t realize that marriage means having to share with someone else. We''ll see how the week goes, I''m going to read some recommendations of people to talk to.
Ok, I am not trying to be adversarial, because I really, really feel for you here. But I am not sure that your example is one of "basic stuff." Is it possible for you to really take a hard look at yourself and your standards in this conflict?

In addition, have you tried some kind of written down list of responsibilities? I mean, when he says the stuff about "I could have helped you," maybe that''s a good time to drop what you''re doing and ask him specifically what exactly he is interested in doing, and then writing it down and posting it in some sort of schedule so that it includes stuff you do, and he does. That may help instill some sense of accountability.

Also, this is on a limb but can you think of setting up some kind of rewards system, like obviously not the kind you''d do with a child but something where he gets something he really wants when he performs to expectations? Just a thought.

Hang in there!!
 

decodelighted

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Date: 6/18/2007 10:22:55 AM
Author: nytemist

It isn't about a power struggle. I just would like a decent place to live. I am a neat freak, but I know I had to give that up.
Are you kidding??

IMO *most* relationship issues are power struggles. The fact that you're not even willing to consider that .... D-E-N-I-A-L.

Just my opinion ... don't mean to offend.
 

rainbowtrout

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Yeah, all relationships have SOME sort of power dynamic, and often when there''s trouble it''s slid into the parental or the passive-aggressive, etc...


I mean, look at all the songs about love-as-battle or even what we put up as sexual fantasies (doctor/nurse, teacher/student)....all about power struggles.


It probably doesn''t FEEL like a power struggle, but it could be. And that doesn''t make you a bad person! It''s natural, just have to recognize it to do anything about it.
 

Kit

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Yeah, I mean I didn''t want to beat that one into the ground but...FI and I are finally getting to the point after 6+ years where we''re beginning to dismantle our power struggle! Fun times. LOL!

Point is, no shame about the power struggle. I think seeing it that way might help you get a more insightful perspective into the relationship.
 

zoebartlett

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Date: 6/17/2007 8:54:39 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 6/16/2007 8:25:43 PM
Author: zoebartlett

His office just got relocated to Boston and we live an hour+ north of the city. I have a MUCH shorter drive than he does and I''m home early enough that I can pitch in more.
Zoe - you sound like you might be in my backyard! Where are you located?

Hi Alj, I just saw this... we live in NH. Where are you?
 

phoenixgirl

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I think we all sympathize with you, but the reality is that you can only change your expectations and choices, not his. It''s not a power struggle and you don''t harp on him, of course, but your end of it is all that you can control.

This past week we had the vomit (Sunday) and then the sewage uprising in the basement (Friday) as a result of the lysol wipes DH flushed down the toilet to clean up his vomit. Because, while he was still intoxicated and sick, I yelled at him that I couldn''t clean it up and he would have to. Then on Friday he told me that I couldn''t flush lysol wipes down the toilet anymore. I stewed about this all day . . . I put up with your vomit and then the sewage coming up in the basement and then you not believing me that our sewage was coming up in the basement . . . all to have you forget that you were the reason there were lysol wipes in the plumbing and to blame me! I don''t think so!

But when I told DH, calmly I thought, that this had upset me, he told me quite sincerely that he wasn''t blaming me and was just telling me about this interesting turn of events (how lysol wipes and paper towels don''t belong in the toilet) because he didn''t know. And he wasn''t blaming me at all. Today I was trying to get to the mall with my mom and out before rush hour and had to fit in a talk with my husband and had to ask him how to reset the tripometer, and he thought I was annoyed with him. I wasn''t. I was just in a hurry.

My point is that communication is key, and flexibility comes next. Yes, you are a saint who puts up with his annoying habits. But to him, he is just as committed, and his comments show that. When people tell you what he''s feeling on the inside, they''re trying to help you understand him, because again, you can''t change him. You''ve got to get past the "But I''m so nice and sweet and put up with so much" and just decide that being together is more important and you''ve got to find a way to make that work. Or else don''t. But right and wrong doesn''t factor into two people with different priorities and different world-views trying to reconcile them.
 

diamondfan

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I totally feel for you because I can sense your frustration and can almost see you wringing your hands in total aggravation. Could you just say to him, WHY do you say you will do and then you clearly are not going to do it, what is that supposed to make me feel?" He has admitted he MEANS to but does not get to it. So just calmly ask what that is all about. It is a bit passive aggressive for me and also a bit child like, and maybe you are another mommy there to just finally give up and do it yourself. I will be his home life was like that with his folks too. He probably was a dreamer and not too concerned with those details and mommy just took care of it.

I think the bottom line is you can right right right but still not be able to have satisfaction, so you have to just decide what you can tolerate and sit down and be completely honest. If he liked it just him and the cats, why did he get married? (seems a legit question for you to ask) and since he DID, you guys both need to find the common ground so you can make it work...
 

nytemist

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Diamondfan- you are certainly right about the frustration. I have asked and I usually get an "I don''t know. Which in guy speak means "I didn''t want to, but to say that would p*ss you off even more." He wasn''t rought up in a household where mom did everything for him. He and his siblings were responsible for how their repective rooms looked. I know he gets it from childhood- his parents aren''t really neat either. Him telling me that he preferred life alone made me speechless for a good couple of hours. I did ask him that very question yesterday and I told him rather than just answer me with a shrug, to think about it while I''m away.
 

Mara

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to play devil's advocate, why wouldn't he be preferring life alone? he did what he wanted, when he wanted, he didn't have anyone telling him what to do, nagging him to pick up his stuff, or being disappointed in him when he didn't perform to their expectations. the cats gave him affection that didn't come with any recriminations or wishes that he would do more. really it sounds like he had a perfect life for himself. if that is all he wanted and from what you say (aka recalling a previous post where he wouldn't talk to you for hours upon coming home) that might be what he was happy with.

if i were you i'd be asking myself what you bring to him in a positive way. the fact that he was happier living alone speaks volumes to me. knowing what you have said about him and your relationship previously, i sometimes wonder why he decided to get married after all. was it because he knew he'd lose you entirely? his heart doesn't really sound IN IT to me from what you say and how he treats you and how you two interact. it's like he didn't want to lose you, but he wasn't really prepared to keep you either...at least not in the way that you want to be be around (aka a true partnership)...i have to admit many times when you posted previously i was surprised he proposed and surprised you two made it to marriage...based on how uncommitted he seemed.

i also continue to be surprised that you are shocked that it is like this now that you are married. you guys really should have lived together before...it might have been a deal breaker for one or both of you if you had to deal with this during dating? if he was this reticent and so far removed?

in any case you two are married now, for better or for worse and he has to realize what that means. i don't know exactly how you can get this point home to him without going insane in the process, i can't even honestly imagine being with a mate who treats me so indifferently and could really care less if i am there or gone and was happier before me.
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diamondfan

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Are you going on a trip? might be good to have a bit of a breather...

I only assumed his mom did a lot because the attitude of "Yeah, I will do it" and then sort of being passive long enough to get others to do it (i.e. usually mom) is something I deal with a bit from my 12 year old. He also pretends he had not heard me ask him to clean his room. I tease him that his wife will surely be annoyed with me, and I really am trying to break him of this passive tendency.

I think that you need to decide what you can live with. How your home is tidied or not is important, sure, but many neat/sloppy couples find ways to exist together. Sort of at the core of this and much more vital is the comment about being happy alone. While on the one hand I get it, as Mara pointed out, it is easier for certain people to not share their space, bottom line is he did marry you, so he needs to be able to step up to the plate emotionally and not just be so offhand about you, your feelings and what matters to you...
 

aljdewey

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Date: 6/19/2007 11:47:06 AM
Author: Mara

knowing what you have said about him and your relationship previously, i sometimes wonder why he decided to get married after all. was it because he knew he''d lose you entirely? his heart doesn''t really sound IN IT to me from what you say and how he treats you and how you two interact. it''s like he didn''t want to lose you, but he wasn''t really prepared to keep you either...at least not in the way that you want to be be around (aka a true partnership)...i have to admit many times when you posted previously i was surprised he proposed and surprised you two made it to marriage...based on how uncommitted he seemed.
This very much echoes what I''ve been thinking.

He wasn''t ready.....and from what I recall from your posts, he was pretty consistent in saying he didn''t know when he would be. NYT lamented many times over his unwillingness to say when he would be. I think I''m correctly remembering that he still wasn''t ''there'' yet even when the ''it''ll be this year'' timeframe had gone by. The decision to marry came after much cajoling (pressure?) from his family (who likes her) and faced with imminenty losing her.

I''m guessing his hesitancy was about not really wanting to make room for someone else.....and I suspect he''s still not ready. And I feel really badly, because I think everyone deserves to be with someone who wholeheartedly WANTS to be with them too and wants to have a companion/partner in life.

I truly believe that what''s led up to this point isn''t nearly as important as charting the course of what''s going to happen from this point on. He did ask you to marry him, and at the end of the day, he has a responsibility to engage fully in the relationship. I hope it happens.
 

ephemery1

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Date: 6/18/2007 5:32:25 PM
Author: decodelighted


Date: 6/18/2007 10:22:55 AM
Author: nytemist

It isn't about a power struggle. I just would like a decent place to live. I am a neat freak, but I know I had to give that up.
Are you kidding??

IMO *most* relationship issues are power struggles. The fact that you're not even willing to consider that .... D-E-N-I-A-L.

Just my opinion ... don't mean to offend.
Agreed... and this is coming from a girl who has only recently (and painfully) realized just how often I unnecessarily turn things into power struggles. I am in a similar situation where I just moved into my husband's apartment after our wedding last month, and I had horrible anxiety about it... I interpreted every little thing (ie., he didn't clear out all his drawers quick enough for my liking) to mean that he wasn't making enough room for me in his life, didn't care, things would always be this way, he didn't respect me, what had I gotten myself into, etc. The poor guy would just look at me in bewilderment when I'd burst into tears over (in retrospect) absolutely nothing.

But I've started realizing that a lot of that is just my OWN reaction to having to adapt to this new way of living... as a true partner, where my way is not automatically the "right" way. Even if I'd been doing it that way quite successfully for years! It is a weird and awkward transtion. Fortunately my DH is REALLY patient/understanding of my oversensitivity, so that has made it much easier. But I do think that every relationship issue has two sides... and it's not always that one person is right, one is wrong. In my opinion (as a counselor), the role of counseling is just to help you both see those two sides in a totally neutral, objective way.
 

nytemist

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He apologized to me last night, not thinking that what he said about living alone would be hurtful to me. He didn''t think his remark and leaving stuff all over really upset me that much. He said yes, he definately wanted to get married, but didn''t realize just how different his life would be. I remember asking him long ago if he thought marriage meant I just faded into a corner not talking and he go about his life as he wanted. He said he know realizes that it truly just isn''t about him anymore and admitted that he''s been more lazy than usual. I said this needs to be hashed out as to do does what so the palce doesn''t look like a complete sty. He said he understood, but said it''s hard for him to be motivated to adapt to a new living situation, since how he did thingds was just easier. I said it has to happen, because there is no way we can survive if the annoyance at home goes on.
 

TravelingGal

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Nytemist, I feel for you, I really do.

Even though I've been a member here since late 2004 (and lurking a bit before that). I never really knew your story before you got engaged. So a couple of nights ago I did what I rarely do...actually checked out someone's old posts.

And you know what? You don't need any of our advice...your story is all here on PS and you could realize a lot by rereading it.

In this thread where you were disappointed he didn't propose by year end where he promised, Aljdewey gives some insight, which in hindsight, has become quite the theme with you and your man....

"I think I personally would be at quite a crossroads here. I'd worry about what this says for the future. Would I want to attach my future to a person who wants but cannot bring himself to act? Is this going to be a life-pattern? How will I feel if, when we ARE a team, he doesn't work hard toward our common goals?"

You've always struck me as someone pretty interesting, intelligent, and original. Your story struck me in that I really felt empathy for you. Do you know when you got engaged, your reaction here on Pricescope was primarily joy at the thought of someone wanting to marry you and a bit of gleeful spite at the thought of proving your mother wrong that someone wouldn't want to marry a "fat girl?" Reading that made me a bit sad and I really wanted it to work out for you.

But I think not only was he not ready to get married (which I've believed all along) but maybe neither were you in the sense of really understanding what marriage was all about?

Just a thought.

 

diamondfan

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 17, 2005
Messages
11,016
Two people can love eachother and not be able to live together, because they have vastly different views of how things are going to be or should be. I am not saying this applies to you both, but I would certainly pretty much demand he go to counseling. If he argues against it or says you just got married, well, clearly things are looming as huge problems and honestly, you may not make it very long if he does not get up and go into a neutral setting to work this out. Not trying to be too blunt, but I can just hear in your posts that you are at wits end and he is being quite passive. He seems content to tell you he does not know or understand and let it be, while you continue to get more frustrated by the day. Not a happy way to live.
 
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