Sapphire experts, I need your help!!!!!!!! Please!!!

[diamondseeker2006]

ff, I commend you for asking the question. Funny, but the only other ring I really want besides diamonds is a very fine sapphire, and I imagined posting one day to ask where the best place was to find one, and also, what do I look for to get the finest quality? I realize sapphires are not cut like diamonds, but like you, I'd want one with a cut that was careful and precise, a gorgeous bright medium blue, and as few internal flaws as possible. (I guess that means I am in deep trouble like you, huh?). Sorry, but I think we have a right to want the very best quality in a sapphire. I hope maybe you can find someone who has them and then let me know who it is!!! And for what it's worth, I think those sapphires are too dark. I have a large sapphire now that is dark, and you can really only see the blue in the sunlight or other direct light.

(ETA: I might get hooked on other colored sapphires, though. I just prefer their hardness over the softer gems.)

 

[pricescope]

http://thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/nsc/products_pair.aspx?Category=blue second pair from the top looks good. Are they too big for your project?

 

[ff]

Thanks everyone for the great input.

Here''s some responses:

Galateia:
Thank you so much.

She''s definitely worth every bit of effort and attention that I''m putting in and does the same for me always. I''m a very lucky guy.

And yes, looks like we''re getting some great info. now and starting to understand the different beast that is sapphire shopping. I''ll definitely take a picture when the ring is all done.

Pricescope:
Thanks. It''s definitely been an issue between finding the right color (a nice deep blue) while at the same time keeping some brilliance to the stone. These have a great blue but just seem to have no light return. The pair you pointed out at the Natural Sapphire Company are a bit too big for the setting. Also I''m definitely looking for a darker richer blue so those were a bit too light. Thanks though for looking them up and sending me the link!!!

I really appreciate the help.

Widget:
Thanks for the great thread link. I''m definitely understanding better now how to look at sapphires. Problem was that at first I jumped into it with the same "look for the right stone and don''t settle for less!" frame of mind that PS has taught us about diamond searching.

Thanks for the pala photos. I''d actually seen a lot of great sapphire photos there and they seem to have a great selection. None were in the size that I need for this setting but will definitely drop them a line as well as forward their info. onto my jeweller. Their photos really do seem to suggest that they have a lot of brilliance to them. Something my current stones definitely lack.

C Smith:
Thanks for all the info!

I''m definitely getting a much better understanding of sapphires now. My concerns before were simply that I had no idea what to look for so was showing all the details on them so that the experts could say things like:
"don''t worry about X,Y,Z. Not important in sapphires."
"run the other direction... X is a major issue with the sapphires you chose."
"stones look great. X,Y,Z are exactly as they should be in good sapphires!"
stuff like that. I really had no idea of what to expect...

diamondseeker2006:
Yep, I think you''d have been in as much trouble as me if you had asked first!

Don''t worry though! I took the heat for both of us.

I''ll definitely let you know where I finally end up getting them.


Again, thanks everyone. Really great community here!

 

[ff]

For some reason, I can't reply anymore to the thread at:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-cutters-i-need-your-expertise-on-gem-cutting.52653/

so here's some responses here. Probably better to keep it all in one thread now anyways.

Cehrabehra:
Thanks!

I'm definitely going "visual" now as the preference.

I learned my lesson!

Garry:
Thanks for the VERY helpful post this time.

I would have never thought to orient them in particular directions for the final mounting.

David_Lundahl:
Thanks for the help. I'm really not dissapointed to know that gemstones are cut different than diamonds in the real world.

I just wanted to make sure I was shopping with enough knowledge to get the best I could and not make a big mistake on something I didn't know anything about. Basically I didn't want to be the sapphire hunting equivalent to that person that walks into a mall store knowing nothing about diamonds and gets that "great deal".

So thanks again everyone. I feel much better prepared. Only thing I'd still like to know is what should I consider an acceptable price range based on what I'm looking for? For the current pair it's starting to look like I overpaid. I still really don't have any idea on this so trying to keep very open mind and not jump to conclusions. Your thoughts?

 

[MINE!!]

I am not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but you may want to keep in mind, that when you set a colored stone, it will darken a bit. I only say this cuase you have been talking about a "dark blue" But I would be careful not to go to dark.

Good Luck

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/29/2006 8:34:32 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
ff, I commend you for asking the question. Funny, but the only other ring I really want besides diamonds is a very fine sapphire, and I imagined posting one day to ask where the best place was to find one, and also, what do I look for to get the finest quality? I realize sapphires are not cut like diamonds, but like you, I''d want one with a cut that was careful and precise, a gorgeous bright medium blue, and as few internal flaws as possible. (I guess that means I am in deep trouble like you, huh?). Sorry, but I think we have a right to want the very best quality in a sapphire. I hope maybe you can find someone who has them and then let me know who it is!!! And for what it''s worth, I think those sapphires are too dark. I have a large sapphire now that is dark, and you can really only see the blue in the sunlight or other direct light.

(ETA: I might get hooked on other colored sapphires, though. I just prefer their hardness over the softer gems.)

The color thing (fancy diamond and natural colored gems) has very different rules to the colorless diamond thing.

This excerpt from Gems & Gemology, Summer 2005 on yellow diamond color and grading shows how cutters enhance color by deliberately messing up a light yellow diamonds symmetry.

Some years back there was some debate fueled by Sergey Sivovlenko when he criticized the people at 8* for using their cutting style on fancy colored diamonds. They were so blinded by their own beliefs that they did not realize their cut does not work on colored diamonds (although it would on really dark diamonds because it would help lighten the color).

Likewis I often criticize colorless radiants - it is a cut that works well to dull diamonds and making the color appear more saturated - so an H looks like a J - where as 8* people often say (justified) their J''s often face up H.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/29/2006 4:39:15 PM
Author: ff

So thanks again everyone. I feel much better prepared. Only thing I''d still like to know is what should I consider an acceptable price range based on what I''m looking for? For the current pair it''s starting to look like I overpaid. I still really don''t have any idea on this so trying to keep very open mind and not jump to conclusions. Your thoughts?

Round is about the most expensive and hard to find shape in ruby and sapp (corundum) which grows in barrel shaped crystals and is more often cut oval or cushion shaped.

you will pay more for rounds, and the cut, while making the stone brighter, may not be the best $/Value. Can you use other shapes?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is another example from this excellent g&G article.

For the darker stone you showed round could help lighten the darkness.

But for Sri Lankan typically lighter material a cushion can work well.

 

[ff]

Mine:
I wouldn''t have thought of that. I''ll definitely keep that in mind! Thanks!

Garry:
Ahhh! There''s the super helpful Garry I''m used to seeing!

I''m definitely understanding now better how cut is adjusted in color stones to make the color show up more than anything else. Makes complete sense.

When it comes to shape, I''m a bit locked in on rounds as I know she absolutely loves that shape and was wowed when we she saw a ring with this stone layout during one of our strolls through a jewellery store many many months ago. I don''t want to stray from what I know is a winning combination.

In terms of price range, no one really seems to have one in mind or willing to put one down in this forum so would you mind if I email you what I paid and just have you say whether it''s even remotely in the ballpark of what I should have paid? I don''t want to post the amount in the forum as I don''t want to pre-bias any pricing ranges anyone is willing to post.

Thanks!

 

[canuk-gal]

Origin: Ceylon. AC Stones.

 

[canuk-gal]

Origin: Burma (unenhanced) A C Stones

 

[canuk-gal]

Origin: Madagascar (unheated). AC Stones

The variables, origin, shape & cut influential in appearance of stones.

cheers--Sharon

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh, Sharon, now THOSE are beautiful sapphires!

Thanks for the very interesting information on cut, Garry!

 

[belle]

if you want a quick rundown on what you *don't* want to see in a good sapphire, have a look on ebay.

these pretties are definitely not from ebay

but i think at 5mm, they are too big for your project.

they are very nice though.

 

[C Smith]

Date: 10/29/2006 10:13:37 PM
Author: belle
if you want a quick rundown on what you *don''t* want to see in a good sapphire, have a look on ebay.

these pretties are definitely not from ebay

but i think at 5mm, they are too big for your project.

they are very nice though.

I found one use for ebay during my gemology training and that was as a place to buy stones with alot of character so that I could gain experience observing inclusions in various gemstones. Ugly stones are fine for that but even then, you must determine treatments to see just what you have as heat and diffusion can change some characteristics of the inclusions. Ebay does have a purpose, it''s just not going to be the go-to place for great stones although I have seen a bargain there on occasion.

 

[bar01]

Date: 10/29/2006 7:52:37 PM
Author: ff

In terms of price range, no one really seems to have one in mind or willing to put one down in this forum so would you mind if I email you what I paid and just have you say whether it's even remotely in the ballpark of what I should have paid? I don't want to post the amount in the forum as I don't want to pre-bias any pricing ranges anyone is willing to post.

Thanks!

Well,

Pricing has been discussed before. It is difficult with colored stones - and with smaller side stones to find comparison.

One of the "High Priests of Colored Stones" did publish A table on prices a while ago.

But the best places for pricing is just to look on line at the various sites - like Cherrypicked, Natural Sapphire, awesomegems, etc, etc.

As far trying to figure out what a good sapphire would look like - there are lots of great photos posted on line here (see the show me the ring folders) but you need to see some in person - you may want to see if there are any high end stores (ala Tiffany) where you could browse.

As for colored stone cut ratings - I know some on line sites and some appraisers actually do give the cut (not the shape) some sort of grading (ranking?) but never really understood whatthe criteria was like I do for diamonds other than simple depth ranges.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/29/2006 5:54:12 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Some years back there was some debate fueled by Sergey Sivovlenko when he criticized the people at 8* for using their cutting style on fancy colored diamonds. They were so blinded by their own beliefs that they did not realize their cut does not work on colored diamonds (although it would on really dark diamonds because it would help lighten the color).

Likewis I often criticize colorless radiants - it is a cut that works well to dull diamonds and making the color appear more saturated - so an H looks like a J - where as 8* people often say (justified) their J''s often face up H.

Interesting comment about the EightStar Gary. Richard von Sternberg has several GIA certified fancy colored diamonds cut to EightStar proportions and then had them recertified. Each retained the original color grade, which would seem to refute the above comment, at least as far as the EightStar is concerned.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/29/2006 8:10:00 AM
Author: widget
While it''s really unfair to judge colored stones from photographs, it seems to me that as beautiful and richly saturated your sapphires look, they seem to be lacking a bit in brightness, lifeliness.

I found these at palagems...too big for your purposes, but they appear, anyway, to be deeply saturated, but brighter stones than yours.

I''ll be curious to hear what Wink has to say...

widget

PS: Garry.....having a bad day?

Thank you and JulieN both for the compliments, I have to say this.

I like nice dark, but bright colors and I like good cutting. While I agree somewhat that the color is the thing and hang the cutting and the inclusions (especially about the inclusions if the color is spectacular), I really feel that cutting is also very important in fine colored gems. I will always look for a well cut gem and often use suppliers like Pala and Natural Sapphires as they speak my language when it comes to gems. Of course you all know my penchant for Richard Homer cut gems, which is taking cut to the extreme, as I am so fond of doing.

Now the hard part is to go look and see if I can find the gems that our supplicant desires. They are not an easy find, nor will they be cheap, but I am betting that they can be found, whether by me or by someone else is not important to our supplicant. I would say, since I was asked, that our supplicant should wait to see if there is not a better brighter pair of sapphires available for his project, and if there is, what is the pricing of the pair and does it fit his needs.

Wink

 

[chrono]

ff,

As I replied in a much earlier post about what to look for in sapphires, colour should be the top priority. It should be well cut (but doesn''t have to be ideal/perfect) and eye-clean. I also like a medium/medium dark blue sapphire BUT it must be bright and intense. If you don''t want violetish blue, just tell the vendor you want a true blue colour, not vB or bV. Also, go for something with no windows, no extinction and no zoning. A strong tone and saturation will also make the sapphire attractive.

I am also happy to recommend Wink for the job. He sourced me a few small blue sapphire side stones (from which I picked a pair of rounds) for my ring and gave me a free unbiased coloured stone education in the process. For side stones, there is no need for unheated stones and they should be relatively inexpensive.

Gary of Diamond Expert can also source the sapphires for you at a reasonable price.

 

[ff]

Wow! So much great information!!! Thanks everyone for all the help!

canuk-gal:
Thanks for the great photo examples. That Burma sapphire is exactly what I''m looking for in terms of shape, color, and brilliance.

diamondseeker:
I''m with you. Great to see some goregeous examples and Garry has been super helpful since first driving me over with his truck.

Belle:
Those are awesome!

A bit big as you noted for the setting but absolutely beautiful. What was the price on those so that I have some reference? In terms of ebay, not that I was or am looking there at all really, what were you referring to?

C Smith:
I love how you buy ones from ebay for examples

and for the occasional good finds! I know I don''t know anything near enough to even consider that so option for me so am totally cool with paying a fair price at a place I can trust.

Bertrand:
That''s what I''m finding. Pricing really seems to be very difficult. Thanks for that great link though for pricing. I will definitely read the entire thing. Looks like a lot of information there!

Wink:
Sounds like you like exactly what I''m looking for and on the same channel as me! I look forward to seeing what you can dig up!

Big thanks for the help and I''ll chat with you more via email.

Chrono:
Thanks for the help too!

Sounds like you''ve had a great experience with Wink so I look forward to working with him too. What would you consider ''relatively inexpensive''? I know that term is very differently used by different people here on PS. :>

Again, thanks everyone. All the help is VERYYYYY appreciated and I look forward to giving you a report in the end!

 

[belle]

Date: 10/30/2006 8:32:53 PM
Author: ff

Belle:
Those are awesome!

A bit big as you noted for the setting but absolutely beautiful. What was the price on those so that I have some reference? In terms of ebay, not that I was or am looking there at all really, what were you referring to?

they are just under $700 for the pair.

i mentioned ebay because you can see hundreds upon thousands of cruddy sapphires on there. it''s a great place to go (not buy! unless, as c smith noted, you are experienced and know what to look for) to see pics of what you *don''t* want to see in your sapphires. i was only suggesting looking as an educational experience.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 10/30/2006 8:32:53 PM
Author: ff
Wow! So much great information!!! Thanks everyone for all the help!

canuk-gal:
Thanks for the great photo examples. That Burma sapphire is exactly what I''m looking for in terms of shape, color, and brilliance.

HI:

Isn''t it a dreamy beauty? I meant to post a picture of a rectangular cut instead of two pears (doh!), but you got the gist of shape/cut/colors, etc....

Just curious, are you able to return the sapphires you already bought?

Good luck on your search and I look forward to seeing your new choices. BTW, I have purchased (a diamond bangle) from Wink and the experience was all good!

cheers--Sharon

 

[ff]

Belle:
Ahh. Finally a price to compare to.

That''s actually a bit cheaper than the smaller pair I picked up but within the ballpark. I get you completely about Ebay. Problem is I must admit that some for sale there (which are very cheap in price) look not too bad in the photos. A combination of me still learning what to look for as well as good photoshop skills on the sellers.

Canuk-gal:
With regards to the return I don''t think it will be a problem. My Jewler has been pretty cool about everything and I just got them a few days ago from him. I''d be surprised if he suddenly said there was a no return policy. I''m picking up the setting through him and he''s doing all the mounting so he''s getting some good business out of me regardless. I also have some friends I''m sending his way because he was very helpful. He really has been great about everything.

I''m chatting with wink about some possible ones that he''ll have a photo of tomorrow so we''ll see how it goes!