seeking ideal demantoid

[flamingogirl]

hello! I've been reading this extremely informative/fun forum for some time in my quest for more knowledge about demantoid garnets. my husband & I LOVE them--they are our perfect stone (originality, color, story, month!). we are hoping to find a beauty--hopefully a cushion over 2cts. to put in an antique setting w/diamonds (we are waiting to find the stone first) we've been married for two years--this will be a replacement engagement ring--there is a long-ish story behind it--really sweet & romantic but also a little sad--um--I will spare you that for today! anyway--questions:
*pala seems to be the place--but is there anywhere else? -- I've read much about scams but is ebay ALWAYS awful (anyone had any experience w/thiagemcorner?--it even sounds dicey, but still--there's a nice looking rock I'm wondering about)
*I actually prefer quite a paler (apple-y) green than the ideal--since this these are not considered most preferable--is there a guide to finding a good stone despite it's light color?
*will it be difficult to put the stone in an old setting?
*I want to wear the ring everyday--should we be concerned about the stone for that purpose?
*experts--we want to spend around $4500 for the whole ring/--are we dreaming? what is truly realistic/possible for a wonderful stone?
*and finally--ANY advice from knowledgeable persons would be truly appreciated--we really want to do this the right way & end up w/ something sublime that I will happily wear all my life. thanks and happy to be here!

 

[riogems]

Hi -

"is ebay ALWAYS awful?"

Yes and no - for the type of item you''re looking to buy - YES - ebay is horrible. If you were looking to buy something that is more of a commodity, it might not be so bad. Or, if you''re looking for a "fun" spend of under $100. With that being said, you can have an awful experience anywhere though. Be sure to do your research and homework on the person you choose to buy from.

"Pala seems to be the place"

Yes - for high-end gems. If you''re on a budget you''ve got to expand your search too. This is where it gets tricky, because your "local/average" jeweler probably doesn''t have an extensive color stone inventory or experience. If they need something that isn''t typical, they may have to call all over for it, and they will probably be as much a novice as you are at buying it.

"Will it be difficult to put in an old setting?"

Not if it is the right size. If it''s the wrong size, it won''t fit, or major modifications may need to be done.

"everday wear"

Everyday wear should be fine.

Best of luck to you and your husband in finding exactly what you''re looking for.

 

[valeria101]

Re. color - is the pear on this list a reasonable example? In person the thing moves between cold to warm yellowish green depending on light. The picture caught it somewhere in between.. not a bad picture.

Anyway, speaking of demantoid on Ebay - sometimes sellers post just enough inventory to let you know they exist. And there has been some minor andradite and demantoid garnets posted by the folks at Gem Line recently, including unusual light green and golden yellow. It can't hurt to ask, IMO.

There are a few sellers specializing in unusual color stones posting around here. You may want to check some of the shopping success stories

Even if no matching stock turns up browsing, a specialist jeweler should be able to save you some grief trying in vain to locate the right stuff.

Wish I knew more. I find it exhausting to shift through Ebay 'offers' of practical lessons in simulants, synthetics and creative marketing ranging from a couple of bucks, to a few hundred.

 

[flamingogirl]

thanks to you both for the good advice & encouragement--I have a couple of wonderful "local" (nyc) estate jewlers however we do intrinsically get the limitations of finding the stone through these people. and I think we will forget ebay for now (perhaps too iffy & complicated for even saavy laymen like us). but I actually really love doing the research/homework--in part that's why this stone intruiges us so much--we truly enjoy the hunt & have the interest & patience to pursue it. I am looking into all kinds of avenues but if any of you ever have any further tips on sources--we'd be much obliged. and yes that pear has a lovely color (thanks so much!)--but even a bit lighter (yellower) than that appeals. much appreciation for the thoughtful replys and best to you guys!

 

[perry]

If what you want is really an "ideal" Demantoid over 2 carats - then I suspect that you are dreaming for that price.

If you are willing to accept sacrifices - they it may be possible.

Wink Jones at Winfields is the guy to contact; and with proper arrangments he can arrange for you to see some possible canidates.

I have a posting below on matching a center stone to side diamonds where I list several links to Dimantoid information and sites. Palegems (spelling - find the link in the posting below) probably has the best and largest selection available. I am not working on my normal computer so I don''t have the links saved and handy.

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

a great stone will cost some bucks: rwwise.com has a .94 carat for $3760 which he rates as a 9.7 on a scale of 10. doesn''t leave much for the setting......but it might be able to be done if mounted simply.

richard has an eye for quality stones....and you''ll pay a premium for that eye.

palagems isn''t on the low end price for stones either....but then they don''t sell low end stones.

movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/22/2006 2:37:54 AM
Author: flamingogirl


... yes that pear has a lovely color (thanks so much!)--but even a bit lighter (yellower) than that appeals. much appreciation for the thoughtful replys and best to you guys!

Aha! If such a look is your ideal stone, the quote makes sense. And I have to say that the fickle color (=changing a bit with lighting, although nothing like photography can do! - see the first link below) and fire put together appeal to me too... and even how

The description reminds me of a certain type of demantoid in particular - the Namibian ones... And Brazilian.
I am not quite sure if their is any supply still... You will probably find out soon enough if you ask around for one.


THIS is what I am talking about. I kept the article for the brilliant example of gem photography gone BAD in a controlled way. The same source has a few more reports about demantoid that name suppliers and sources.

And something only sort of related, but beautiful and surprising. GIA has a short report online about the same two stones...

I hope you will share a bit of the 'demantoid hunt' as it goes on. It should make a wonderful story, especially if you are not in a hurry. It may be that my guess of what you are looking for is not dead on, but the thought of a fiery autumn green demantoid is a very pleasant one. It doesn't hurt that you are looking for a large stone, of course. IMO, the result should be a spectacular, intriguing gem. Good for you!

 

[open culet]

Demantoids can be quite light green without much yellow. A very light green one will look like a green diamond because of the dispesion being so much more visable than in a darker green one. A light green one would look the best in strong light, maybe not showing very much green color in low light.

Light green ones are not what the trade would consider ideal, so you may find one in your price range. They do not photograph well, so I would not buy one from pictures, unless it can be returned. Over 2 carats makes the stone harder to find.

Best of luck and be prepared to take some time finding the right stone.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Have you thought about a Tsavorite garnet? I think you would have better luck finding one in the 2 cts size and in your price range.

 

[flamingogirl]

once again thanks all for the reply,advice & encouragement. I know that my color preference is not the industry ideal and am hoping to find a deal on that front. my other hope is a jeweler/designer friend who offered to procure the stone for me (@ no markup) and assist us w/the ring. in light of that I''m hoping the price of the stone will be doable. I''m also wondering about purchasing a rough piece & having it cut--any pointers in that direction would also be well appreciated. and valeria: I will do my best to chronicle my search--I do expect it to take a while however. best!

 

[riogems]

Purchasing a rough piece and having it cut is a bad idea. While I could spend hours explaining it, let me sum it up in saying that, how will you know what the rough will yield? Most likely anyone selling a consumer rough is a scammer, unless it is a specimen. The natural customer of gem rough is a lapidary or gem dealer. If any of it is making its way to the consumer, most likely it is because there is something wrong with it (the lapidary didn''t want to risk cutting it - or it wasn''t gem quality).

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 4/26/2006 1:13:45 AM
Author: riogems
Purchasing a rough piece and having it cut is a bad idea. While I could spend hours explaining it, let me sum it up in saying that, how will you know what the rough will yield? Most likely anyone selling a consumer rough is a scammer, unless it is a specimen. The natural customer of gem rough is a lapidary or gem dealer. If any of it is making its way to the consumer, most likely it is because there is something wrong with it (the lapidary didn''t want to risk cutting it - or it wasn''t gem quality).

i agree....i would not buy rough for such a garnet and for a special project. i would leave it to the professionals and purchase the best possible stone i could afford.

having said that, i have purchased spess rough and will have it cut but i''m doing it for ''fun'' and not for a project. additionally, spess isn''t demantoid: demantoid is supposed to have certain horsetail type inclusions which i believe could make purchasing rough and having it cut even more difficult.

movie zombie

 

[partgypsy]

Flamingo girl, I purchased a demantoid garnet off ebay and was actually very pleased with it (Judi''s gems) However she is not selling any at your size. Also for the amount of money you are talking about, I wouldn''t deal with ebay unless it was someone you have had prior personal experience with. I would have one of the professionals (like Wink) who have the resources to research it for you, since the size and price parameters you are looking at they are going to be few and far between.
I can imagine it would be difficult to capture the essence of a demantoid on film, thinking of mine the dispersion, color in different lights...it''s almost like the original mystic topaz! So though I am a novice, another suggestion is a trade show or someone who can bring stones in to view (or someone with a good return policy!).
Good luck, and keep us posted on your search!

 

[MJO]

Date: 4/26/2006 12:17:02 AM
Author: flamingogirl
once again thanks all for the reply,advice & encouragement. I know that my color preference is not the industry ideal and am hoping to find a deal on that front. my other hope is a jeweler/designer friend who offered to procure the stone for me (@ no markup) and assist us w/the ring. in light of that I'm hoping the price of the stone will be doable. I'm also wondering about purchasing a rough piece & having it cut--any pointers in that direction would also be well appreciated. and valeria: I will do my best to chronicle my search--I do expect it to take a while however. best!

Hello Flamingogirl,

If you will settle for about 1ct and round cut, Michael at Gemlineinc on ebay has a nice one and is getting in more. I have dealt with Michael for a few years now and even have him list and sell some of the stones I want to sell. I do not own these demantoids. He as a Russian Miner he deals with that sends them to him. I trust Michael completely. Just look at his Ebay feedback of 100% for years and thousands of transactions. Your ring is doable at your price.

Maurice

 

[flamingogirl]

OK! thanks again for the all feedback and please feel free to offer more--I look forward to it! the consensus seems to be no rough for the inexperienced. it''s quite understandable and I''m taking it to heart. and as much as I love a hunt and doing things from "scratch" I sense that it wouldn''t be very worthwhile. so onward-- as for tsavorite--I know it would be easier to find what I''m looking for in regards to size, price and even color. and I totally think they are so beautiful as well. however I find the fire as well as the rareness of (a good) demantoid irresistible and want to pursue it. the stone holds significance too. I might as well tell the story if anyone''s interested-maybe it''s the sort of tale that would be appreciated here--

when my husband decided to propose he had no money to speak of--we had recently discovered demantoids & declared them our stone (of course we chose such an expensive gem but we love vintage-y greens & the russian story of origin & garnet is also my birthstone--also I do love diamonds but we both have political issues with them and would never purchase new ones anyway). so he secretly purchased a cheap rough demantoid speciman and planned to get down on his knee with it with the promise that we would purchase a ring as soon as he was more solvent. a few days before the surprise event he went home to canada to visit his family--a package arrived on christmas day for the siblings from their uncle. it contained several pieces of their grandmother''s jewelry (she had died a few years prior). inside there just happened to be a lovely very simple deco 1 ct. 1929 diamond ring! everyone agreed my husband should have it. the night he proposed he gave me both and told the whole amazing story. he still wanted me to hold onto the demantoid as someday he meant to buy me one. then two years later we had it appraised and discovered that at some point the diamond had been swapped for a fake (!) --we now think his frugal grandmother did it after her husband died and the stone fell out when she was gardening. the jeweler we were using at the time never spotted it (but that''s a whole other story). we were sad but still we had had the perfect story to carry us through our wedding and nothing takes away from that. and I have to admit--I''m thrilled to be able to seek that green beauty so it all seems sort of right however it happened. the original ring''s setting is nice but pretty bare bones (we will do something else w/ it someday) and since we are now starting over and can spend a bit we want to do exactly what appeals most. so--that''s it...


I love things that are unusual, old, beautiful & chic and am going for just that combination for my ring. In the event that we exhaust our resources and nothing charms enough I will reconsider the tsavorite or an estate diamond. but for now I''m feeling pretty confident that with my jeweler friend''s help I should be able to find one for the price. if anyone could recommend any particular trade shows in the northeast in the coming months I would be most interested & grateful.
best!

 

[movie zombie]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Top-Gem-Old-Mine-Russian-Demantoid-Garnet-GLI_W0QQitemZ8905794900QQcategoryZ110804QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Old-Mine-Russian-Demantoid-Topazolite-Garnet-GLI_W0QQitemZ8916019896QQcategoryZ110804QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

and how can you go wrongwith a refund policy like this: "Satisfaction guaranteed. No questions return policy with a 10 day inspection period. Please email us with any questions you may have."

movie zombie

 

[perry]

Movie zombie says (in regards to ebay items):

and how can you go wrongwith a refund policy like this: "Satisfaction guaranteed. No questions return policy with a 10 day inspection period. Please email us with any questions you may have."

Oh... My memory is there is a long tale of woe on the Rocky Talk forum about an ebay vendor who would not honor their stated refund policy. ebay has no enforcement method. I will concede that there are honest vendors on ebay; but there are enough dishonest ones to really raise the flag on ebay for expensive items. You also are not in position to take legal action because the vendor is usually in a remote state.

The fact is also that there are no "real deals" on gems or related items from jewelers on ebay. You might find a private party selling something at a great value - but does the person really know what they are selling and do you know what you are really buying.



Flamingogirl - hold onto your dream of getting a great demantoid - even if you have to save a bit. You will not be disapointed. I would avoid ebay for this - and focus on dealing with jewelers with established reputations for such items. I am dealing with Wink Jones (Winfields) on a similar situation - specifically because I know I will get a really good jem, and not something less. There are other jewelers who deal in colored stones as well and have good reputations.

I also suggest that like a diamond - that you have the stone independently appraised to verify what it is and that the quality of the stone is what you want (either prior to purchase - or part of the purchase transaction). Seveal of the PriceScope listed appraisers have experience with these other stones (and not just diamonds). Note - and independent appraiser is someone you pick - not an appraiser that the vendor picks. You also pay the appraiser. See the FAQ's for more information on how to select an appraiser and what type of service to ask for.

Perry

 

[valeria101]

Ebay the pit... yeah... mostly. Only it is also the case that quite a few established businesses keep a presence there. That doesn't make them 'Ebay sellers' I would think. Picking something at random based on the blind trust and no hope of recourse must be quite different than looking over the Ebay listings of a sellers that comes with recommendations and what not.


The feedback system on Ebay is one, the good old word of mouth feedback system, quite a bit better. Especially with some knowledgeable folks doing the talking.

Perhaps the flea market flair of Ebay encourages blind 'bargain hunting'. But this one search doesn't sound like that (hei, if someone would be looking for 2cts demantoid for $100 and come in with a stash of Ebay pictures of something glowing, green and flawless... you know, that would be one more Ebay Miracle to deal with

)


My 2c


Anyway, the promise of a return policy doesn't do it for me either. I would need to know that policy works too. Which means fellow customer feedback in real time.

As it happens here

Or the seller's reputation in 'the real world' (definitely not the same as Ebay's conveniently anonymous feedback system).

 

[MJO]

Date: 4/27/2006 8:04:17 AM
Author: perry



Movie zombie says (in regards to ebay items):

and how can you go wrongwith a refund policy like this: 'Satisfaction guaranteed. No questions return policy with a 10 day inspection period. Please email us with any questions you may have.'




Oh... My memory is there is a long tale of woe on the Rocky Talk forum about an ebay vendor who would not honor their stated refund policy. ebay has no enforcement method. I will concede that there are honest vendors on ebay; but there are enough dishonest ones to really raise the flag on ebay for expensive items. You also are not in position to take legal action because the vendor is usually in a remote state.

The fact is also that there are no 'real deals' on gems or related items from jewelers on ebay. You might find a private party selling something at a great value - but does the person really know what they are selling and do you know what you are really buying.



Flamingogirl - hold onto your dream of getting a great demantoid - even if you have to save a bit. You will not be disapointed. I would avoid ebay for this - and focus on dealing with jewelers with established reputations for such items. I am dealing with Wink Jones (Winfields) on a similar situation - specifically because I know I will get a really good jem, and not something less. There are other jewelers who deal in colored stones as well and have good reputations.

I also suggest that like a diamond - that you have the stone independently appraised to verify what it is and that the quality of the stone is what you want (either prior to purchase - or part of the purchase transaction). Seveal of the PriceScope listed appraisers have experience with these other stones (and not just diamonds). Note - and independent appraiser is someone you pick - not an appraiser that the vendor picks. You also pay the appraiser. See the FAQ's for more information on how to select an appraiser and what type of service to ask for.

Perry

Hello Perry,

You are right about alot of vendors on ebay but how many have 0ver 5 years and over 3000 transactions with no negative feedback and no feedback withdrawals? I have used Gemlineinc's no questions asked policy. I even know of someone that bought a hiddenite that was left out in the sun that faded after 8 months and was given a refund. If that's not going above and beyond I don't know what is. He will also let you send it out for appraisal with no questions asked.

You stated there are no real deals on ebay. Ask Richard Wise who bought a pair of Pariaba Tourmalines from Michael.

I also know he got in more Demantoids that aren't listed yet so he might have one that fits the bill except they are ussually all round since that is what this miner cuts.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[movie zombie]

Perry, while i would agree with you that there are no great deals on eBay, i also know there are some dealers with fine reputations and who do business ethically. for some, this is their only store front. i followed the thread in Rocky Talk you mentioned: why anyone would have gone into that situation in the first place is beyond me. it is also true that you get what you pay for: some of the eBay sellers actually do carry some higher grade stones and expect to be compensated accordingly. as i have said before, there is something for every budget but do not expect to get a really great stone and not have to pay more for it [this is true whether it is eBay or other seller]. to brandish the tar brush against all such venders does a disservice. as in all things, let the buyer beware...and get educated about whatever stone one is seeking. fyi: there is another thread here in the world of color that does not give wink a good review........

Flamingogirl, MJO is a collector and has done deals with Gemlineinc for quite some time. i trust his ability to have done the ground work that has sorted the good from the bad to the downright ugly eBay venders. also, from what you have posted previously, you are not in the market for what is considered an ''ideal'' demantoid but have in mind what is pleasing to your eye. that is the way it should be. i''m sure if you contact Gemlineinc and mention that you rec''d your referral to them from MJO, you will be treated fairly. personally, this is what i would do and i would have no hesitation in doing so given their feedback, years of experience, MJO''s experiece/recommendation, and their return policy.

movie zombie

 

[Gemoholic]

How is your demi search going? I am looking for one too! I want a 1/2 carat-.80 carat and can spend a couple thou for the right one. It is just so hard to locate the right one! R wise has a beauty but I would rather have it a bit smaller and a slightly smaller price tag.

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/10/2006 4:31:23 PM
Author: Gemoholic
How is your demi search going? I am looking for one too! I want a 1/2 carat-.80 carat and can spend a couple thou for the right one. It is just so hard to locate the right one! R wise has a beauty but I would rather have it a bit smaller and a slightly smaller price tag.

Try Michael at Gemlineinc. You don''t have to spend that much for a 1/2-.80ct Demantoid.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Gemoholic]

Thanks I looked at their stuff. Looks like they don''t have anything I would like. They are ebay seller too and I personally don''t buy gems off ebay. Still searching.