Does AGTA issue country of origin? AIGS?

[Richard Sherwood]

I''m curious how the AGTA (and AIGS) handles country of origin ID for ruby & sapphire. Do they give a "positive" or "conclusive" ID? If not conclusive, do they use a "confidence ranking" of some sort?

How do they handle sapphire "types" which have similar characteristics, but come from different countries (such as Thai/Cambodian)? Do they give no country of origin ID, or indicate the regions that particular type exists in?

Anybody know?

 

[mogok]

Hello Richard,

I will be very franck: Yes we provides sometimes reports with an opinion about the possible origin of the rubies or the sapphires we were given to examine
We provide currently an "opinion" about the country we feel that the gem is very probably from. But well as Richard Hugues said once, regarding origin determination:
"Only 2 people really know where a gem is from: God and the miner who took it from the ground. The problem is that you cannot trust the miner and god dont really speak commonly with gemologists".I want to say here that I dont like really "origin" as it is currently used in the trade even if I like it as "a romancing factor" for the gems I personally buy for myself:
I believe that a gemstone should be evaluate for its own quality and not for its pedigree.

"origin" has become a desired brand name used to get more money from some colored gemstones. For sapphires customers wants Burma, Sri Lanka or Kashmir... even if most of the world production is currently coming from Madagascar or Tanzania.
It is interesting to see that no major gemological studies were made on the 2 countries that have provide to the world most of their sapphires for the last 10 years: Tunduru and Songea in Tanzania and Ilakaka and Andilamena in Madagascar... Gemologists have thus some serious difficulties to separate the gems from these areas with gems from more traditional deposits (especially after treatment) and somewhere traders are very happy with that as they are provided the reports they want with "traditional origins" due to the lack of reliable information about these new origins.
It was the reason why AIGS and Gubelin Gem Lab decided to finance my 4 month field trip project to go to visit and study these areas last summer and I find out that the same motivation was at the origin of Richard Hugues trip to Madagascar few weeks ago. I have to say that honestly I have some problems in many cases to give a "positive" origin opinion (But well I''ve also only a limited experience in gem business...) and I would like to do as many mistakes as possible. This is the main problem for me about origin: The probability of mistakes is so high that I dont think it is a direction gemological laboratories should go anymore: gems are coming now from many new areas from whihc data are not available so we are sure that one day or an other we will do a mistake, which even if it is a honnest mistake is still a mistake.
The problem regarding origin determination is that gems from different countries can have a similar geologic past, a similar visual aspect and can present strong similarities. We can then find as an exemple fine "Khasmir type" sapphires from Sri Lanka or Madagascar. And for an equivalent beauty a gem with a report Khasmir will possibly be sold for 2 times the amount of a gem with a Madagascar pedigree... This is not someting that I favor very much.
Personally I''m more in favor to provide to the trade some kind of quality grading report like it is done for restaurants as an example in tourism business.
As most customers looks at origin as a "quality" factor, why not to give our honnest opinion about the gem quality instead to give our honnest opinion about the gem origin? There will be probably less mistakes and finally things would be more clear.

Anyway for people interested in origin aspect I''m currently finishing to write the report on the 4 months fieldtrip I did to Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Madagascar, Kenya and Tanzania regarding to ruby and sapphire. I''m waiting for my english to be corrected by some native english speaking friends and then these reports will be available on internet.
I will keep you informed.

All the best,

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 10/15/2005 1:09:14 PM
Author: Vincent Pardieu

I believe that a gemstone should be evaluate for its own quality and not for its pedigree.

Thanks for the reply Vincent. I generally tend to agree with your above statement. I believe all gemstones should be fairly evaluated for their own quality.

However, I don't think we're ever going to escape the fact that "pedigree" does make a difference to a lot of people. It reminds me of the boost in value and salability that ownership by a person of note gives to a particular gemstone or item. Their ownership does not make one bit of difference in the quality of the piece, but considerable difference in the perceived desirability of that piece to many buyers.

You mention that you "like it (country of origin) as 'a romancing factor' for the gems I personally buy for myself". I do as well. I love the romance, drama, history, legend and lore which is attached to certain gems from certain localities.

It's proven that people will pay more for certain tangibles which are not visible to the eye. The unheated market is a good example. People will pay more for the rarity and (in their mind) purity of an unheated gem versus a heated of equal quality.

So it is with country of origin. Many people would prefer an emerald from the famed mines of Colombia over one from Afghanistan. Many will wear with pleasure a fine Southwestern US turquoise while spurning one of equal quality from Iraq.

I personally would hate to see this aspect of the market diminished, and doubt it ever will be. As long as country of origin makes a difference to the consumer, gemologists will make an effort to be able to determine it.

Along those lines I appreciate your recent research, and look forward to reviewing your findings.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I routinely do country of origin determination for ruby, sapphire & emerald. I use a four tiered "confidence ranking" along with the determination which I would like to see major labs begin to use, instead of the vague narrative many now use to cover themselves.

It''s very simple, but it gives the consumer an idea of how confidently you stand behind your identification:

Conclusive
Strongly Indicated
Probable
Undetermined

I also will assign a "type designation" for gemstones which have characteristics that could come from more than region or country. Thai/Cambodian sapphires are a good example.

 

[mogok]

Hello Richard,
I understand your points, regarding to the way we give origin at AIGS laboratory we are only giving:

"Probable origin: (name of the country)"

I''m personally not very fond of cathegories as well its adding border line cases and one more area where argumentation and controversy might step in.
If I dont feel confident enough to give one country name, we just dont issue the origin report... Anyway the thing I dont like with origin is that we are sure that one day we will make a mistake. This is not a very pleasant perspective for a lab even if its just an opinion. So as a person I like to know where my stones are from, but as laboratory director I dont like to make mistakes...

All the best,

 

[widget]

Author: Richard Sherwood
I use a four tiered ''confidence ranking'':

Conclusive
Strongly Indicated
Probable
Undetermined

I think "confidence ranking" is a good idea...but one question...is it possible to give a stone a "conclusive" ranking?

I thought only God and the miner know for sure...

widget

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 10/16/2005 10:13:24 PM
Author: widget

I think 'confidence ranking' is a good idea...but one question...is it possible to give a stone a 'conclusive' ranking?

I thought only God and the miner know for sure...

widget

Yes, there are many instances when the gemological evidence can support a conclusive determination. Although sometimes it is just God and the miner "in the know", often God will clue in others by leaving a distinct signature in His handiwork.

Definitely in enough cases that country of origin determination is still a valid science.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I receive a weekly newsletter from the AGTA. On their latest, they comment -

"Increasingly, country of origin determination has become an important service provided by gemological laboratories. The UV-VIS spectrum plays an important part, along with trace element chemistry, infra red spectroscopy and microscopic observations, in establishing the country of origin of blue sapphires. Because the UV-VIS spectra for blue sapphire from different sources have subtle differences, they can provide valuable clues to the gemologist".

The article goes on to show two charts showing a typical Kashmir sapphire UV-VIS spectral graph versus a typical Burma sapphire graph. The spectrums show subtle but obvious differences, easily distinguished by a gemologist trained in spectroscopy.

I knew that AGTA did do country of origin determination, and was hoping to hear how conclusive they considered their country of origin designations (in light of recent discussion), and whether they used a confidence ranking of some sort.

Some labs have an inferred confidence ranking in how they word their narrative. If you're not familiar with it, you could easily miss it. I'm not sure if the AGTA uses that method or not. Would love to hear.

 

[mogok]

Hi all,
Just a word here as the topic is right to invite you to visit the report I''ve finally completed about the 4 month fieldtrip I had to ruby and sapphire mining areas last summer.

This report does not included my last visit to Madagascar as I went back to help my friend Richard Hugues in his project to visit the island. The trip was very succesful and great as travelling with Richard Hugues was an old dream for a young gemologist like me!
I was able to visit again some of the areas I visited already in June plus several new mines.

Anyway currently if you want to follow a little bit my steps, you have at the following link several pages to read and I hope have fun.

I will continue to put from time to time the photos of these expeditions on fieldgemology.com but please understand that this is time consuming and I will do my best to do it as rapidly as possible.

Here are the links:

Vincent''s 4 months fieldtrip report

All the best,