Coward Cop killers in Dallas

[redwood66]

This is an example of problems I spoke about in police culture. It is a notion that has to change. People can be tough as nails, still seek assistance for problems, still be compassionate toward others. You must have some opinions/ideas about what can be done to help officers cope with the horrors of the job. I would love to hear them.

I don't know. Truly I don't. Divorce rate is really high but thankfully I have a supportive spouse and he was a huge help for me. But being a woman I may have been able to deal with it better than my partners because I don't have the "man" mentality.

Management tends to be an issue for line staff I have found. If you are doing bad things you should be in trouble. But in my department there was a tendency to believe what an inmate said and not believe staff. If an inmate thinks he can get you in trouble by making false statements he will. What does he have to lose? Most of the ones in my prisons were LWOPs (life without possibility of parole.) This does not help one feel supported for sure.

 

[ame]

The more I read from you, redwood, the more I feel this video is directed towards you. You may have seen some things, but your vision is most definitely black vs white. And it's disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBxxkgJCCQ

Are you accusing me of being racist? Have I written anything about race at all? I am talking about cops. I feel for that woman in the video and I feel her pain!!! How dare you accuse me of being racist!

ETA - I am seething about this comment. You have no idea who I am.

That's not what I am accusing you of, but if you're taking that from my posting, clearly you have some personal reflection to do. Based on your post history thus far in these few threads, you're painting quite a picture of yourself as someone who makes judgements about a certain class of people, concerns themselves with only their pasts, blames the victims for their outcomes, and refuses to see the human inside the bag of skin. You're speaking about two murdered black men, both of whom were murdered in front of a family member, as if they're nothing more than justified shootings, and not humans that were slaughtered on camera for no justifiable reason, and getting livid at people who call them murdered because "they aren't murdered and don't say so without all the facts", and trying to defend the indefensible actions these specific officers who made awful decisions in these cases, and potentially did so more often than these incidents.

But I am definitely done following your postings because the tone of your postings and the direction you seem to want this country to go in scares the crap out of me.

 

[redwood66]

The more I read from you, redwood, the more I feel this video is directed towards you. You may have seen some things, but your vision is most definitely black vs white. And it's disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBxxkgJCCQ

Are you accusing me of being racist? Have I written anything about race at all? I am talking about cops. I feel for that woman in the video and I feel her pain!!! How dare you accuse me of being racist!

ETA - I am seething about this comment. You have no idea who I am.

That's not what I am accusing you of, but if you're taking that from my posting, clearly you have some personal reflection to do. Based on your post history thus far in these few threads, you're painting quite a picture of yourself as someone who makes judgements about a certain class of people, concerns themselves with only their pasts, blames the victims for their outcomes, and refuses to see the human inside the bag of skin. You're speaking about two murdered black men, both of whom were murdered in front of a family member, as if they're nothing more than justified shootings, and not humans that were slaughtered on camera for no justifiable reason, and getting livid at people who call them murdered because "they aren't murdered and don't say so without all the facts", and trying to defend the indefensible actions these specific officers who made awful decisions in these cases, and potentially did so more often than these incidents.

That is absolutely what you are accusing me of because you said her video is directed at me. How else am I to take her pointed part at the end. I don't make judgments on any class of people and I never said anything about a "justified shooting." We shall be together in not following postings.

 

[redwood66]

I have to get this back to the original reason for this thread.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/08/dallas-sniper-who-gunned-down-5-cops-wanted-to-kill-white-people-chief-says.html

 

[Tekate]

As my mother would say: "Two wrongs don't make a right!".. we as a country need to get gun laws enacted. A tragedy for the Dallas PD and America.

 

[ruby59]

we as a country need to get gun laws enacted.
___________________________________

It will not stop criminals from getting their hands on them.

 

[Tekate]

It seems there were several rogue guards at this prison, it was over-crowded by 1,000 men at the time of this riot/shootings/tear gas...Sounds like there was a lot of anger there, interestingly the overwhelming majority of inmates were Hispanic.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Guards-Kill-Prisoner-In-Brawl-at-Pelican-Bay-12-3239800.php

I am not saying to not be upset about alleged police shootings. I am saying don't indict until all the facts are known. That is how justice works, innocent until proven guilty. You are deciding beforehand by calling it "murder."

ETA - Just one day in my career. Quite graphic so be forewarned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kMZjmM60k

 

[redwood66]

It seems there were several rogue guards at this prison, it was over-crowded by 1,000 men at the time of this riot/shootings/tear gas...Sounds like there was a lot of anger there, interestingly the overwhelming majority of inmates were Hispanic.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Guards-Kill-Prisoner-In-Brawl-at-Pelican-Bay-12-3239800.php

I knew of those two but never worked with them. They are a disgrace.

This prison was built because of the gang problems in all the other CA prisons. The worst of the worst are sent there because there is no other safe place to send them.

 

[Tekate]

Redwood, the black community has stated this has gone on for decades, each and ever death by cop should be investigated to ensure that the rights of black people have not been violated. I think every cop/prison guard/law enforcement officer should be required to at least have a bachelors degree with a minor in sociology/psychology and anger issues need to be addressed before hiring, a enforcement officer needs to act not react. There are criminals, they are bad, a cop should not be shot and killed as retribution not one. We need to work on poverty in our country, dialogue and peace.

There are 4 police officers dead now. Let me say very strongly that I am deeply disturbed when bad police kill people seemingly for no justified reason. But using violence to protest violence is going to escalate the whole situation.

2016 needs a Martin Luther King to lead peaceful protests. He was so against hate and violence.

DS I have to say of the tens of thousands of law enforcement officers in the US it seems like the police killing innocent people is rampant when really it is just because of instant media coverage and social media that makes it seem like more. Most cops are good and do their jobs well with integrity. But unless you have lived it you have no idea what a sh*tty job it really is. I will always look at all evidence and investigations before passing judgement on a cop. Sure there are bad cops because it is just a law of averages but a very small percentage.

 

[AnnaH]

Online discussions, by their nature, often result in misunderstandings. I hope that is what is happening here.
Everyone has a right to post opinions here, and everyone has a right to disagree.
As to the topic, this is highly distressing to us all, I trust. From what I've heard, the police in Dallas have a good relationship with the community. The protest was peaceful. Only a few protesters were shouting things like "F the cops." Others were talking with policemen and taking photos with them. I wasn't there, just repeating what was said on the news. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement in Dallas or anywhere else. Just setting the scene before the slaughter.
Shooting cops? Nobody is safe. I worry that before long no one will be willing to do this difficult job.

 

[redwood66]

Redwood, the black community has stated this has gone on for decades, each and ever death by cop should be investigated to ensure that the rights of black people have not been violated. I think every cop/prison guard/law enforcement officer should be required to at least have a bachelors degree with a minor in sociology/psychology and anger issues need to be addressed before hiring, a enforcement officer needs to act not react. There are criminals, they are bad, a cop should not be shot and killed as retribution not one. We need to work on poverty in our country, dialogue and peace.

That would be great but no one wants to do that job and work in a prison. The psych tests are quite extensive in CA now for guards. Peace would be great. On all sides.

 

[Tekate]

This organization is HORRIBLE, read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation

 

[redwood66]

This organization is HORRIBLE, read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation

That is terrible. I am sorry I linked. I did not know this website or their views. It was a link from another site. Disgusting.

 

[VRBeauty]

Redwood, the black community has stated this has gone on for decades, each and ever death by cop should be investigated to ensure that the rights of black people have not been violated. I think every cop/prison guard/law enforcement officer should be required to at least have a bachelors degree with a minor in sociology/psychology and anger issues need to be addressed before hiring, a enforcement officer needs to act not react. There are criminals, they are bad, a cop should not be shot and killed as retribution not one. We need to work on poverty in our country, dialogue and peace.

That would be great but no one wants to do that job and work in a prison. The psych tests are quite extensive in CA now for guards. Peace would be great. On all sides.

I can't think of a job with a greater potential to de-humanize someone than working in a prison. My hat's off to anyone who is able to work in the prison system and retain the ability to see each of their charges as human beings. And my hat's off to you, for having been willing to work in that environment. I'm pretty sure I would fail that battery of psych tests!

 

[Tekate]

I am not saying to not be upset about alleged police shootings. I am saying don't indict until all the facts are known. That is how justice works, innocent until proven guilty. You are deciding beforehand by calling it "murder."

ETA - Just one day in my career. Quite graphic so be forewarned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kMZjmM60k

Who is indicting before the facts are known? Citizens are being shot and killed without being charged with committing a crime. These are facts recorded on videotape. The perpetrators of these crimes should absolutely be charged. The evidence should be examined in a trial by jury. Isn't that supposed to be a basic tenet of the freedom we enjoy as Americans? Or is it only for certain Americans, like the ones whose ethnicities are NOT represented by the criminals shown in the video you link to.

What is it you are trying to infer with this video? Is it that Hispanic and African American gang members cause riots in prison therefore a cop in Minnesota or Baton Rouge should be very wary of a black man if his taillight is busted or if he is selling CDs? The cop should automatically assume his life is in danger and fire his weapon? Does the fear of gang violence in your video trickle down to fear of a black woman who is smoking a cigarette when being pulled over for failing to use a turn signal?

I honestly don't understand the point you are trying to make. People are rightfully outraged and downright scared by ALL of these horrific events. The protestors in Dallas were not protesting against all cops. NO ONE IS.

I am retired law enforcement and the video was posted because I was there that day in that mess. I wasn't inferring anything, that is how criminals are and none of my thoughts in sharing it were race involved. You have your life with your experiences and that was a glimpse into mine. I come to this discussion with a completely different view than the people on the other thread who are making judgments on videos of only part of what happened. If the officers in the video were in the wrong that will come out.

I understand people are fearful but to live in fear that any cop might just shoot you out of the blue is outrageous. Do what a cop tells you no matter if you think it is wrong or not. It will get sorted out and you can complain to the superiors later. At least you will walk away 99.9% of the time.

So I have to do whatever a cop tells me to, no matter what, so I won't get shot?

So much for "protect and serve".

So much for Constitutional rights! Those Republicans/conservatives/NRA members who loooove the Second Amendment should remember that people have other rights under the Constitution as well as the right to bear arms. If they want to keep claiming a right to bear arms they should be wary about taking away other people's right to free speech and freedom of assembly and the right to due process and a lot of other rights which people are routinely expected to give up in deference to the police if they do not want to be mistreated or, if they are people of color, worse.

I never said it was right or fair all the time but it is the truth if you want to go home. And isn't that the most important thing? Most cops don't wake up deciding to kill X,Y,Z in the morning.

I know this. The President knows this. Most people of color know this. But this has to change. That is what the Black Lives Matter movement is about. And that is one point this thread has touched upon. What is the point of having a Second Amendment and a right to bear arms so that the government cannot invade our homes if we must be servile before an authoritarian police force? As Americans, we should be able to speak and move freely, not be held hostage to a police force that operates without rules, outside of the law, killing at will. We should not have to do as we are told or worry that we will not be able to go home at the end of the day. You seem to think that this is acceptable in the United States of America!

AGBF

I am going to say this in a calm and hopefully straight forward way. Deb - I get people are upset at the videos and what seems to and may very well be excessive use of force. But to use the words I bolded above don't help this situation. It is not rampant that the police are killing innocent people even though the media tries to make us think so. It is a horrendous job they have to do and hard on families who wonder if their spouse/father/mother will come home at night. Day in and day out. Calls for domestic disputes where the boyfriend beat her repeatedly and she will not press charges. Children with bruises all over them. Whole families dead because someone "lost it." Or in my case, being attacked; spit on; having semen, sh*t, or barf thrown on you; responding to a cell where an inmate just bashed his cellmate with a weight and the gray matter is all over the walls.

If this affects the judgement of the officer/guard/etc then that person is burned out and has possibly Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or as I said is too burned out to continue in that jab, if a person cannot handle these stresses and do a fair job and not become jaded that is fine, but what you describe to me anyway is a very jaded person, should not have a gun.

I do not condone any poor behavior on any cops part but the life is one that most have no idea about or would want to. Yet these officers respond to this daily so I take it personally when someone makes comments like that.

ETA - At least I knew all the people I was dealing with were criminals. Street cops don't have that luxury.

 

[redwood66]

I got lost in all those requotes.

Was this what you were posting?

If this affects the judgement of the officer/guard/etc then that person is burned out and has possibly Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or as I said is too burned out to continue in that jab, if a person cannot handle these stresses and do a fair job and not become jaded that is fine, but what you describe to me anyway is a very jaded person, should not have a gun.

 

[AnnaH]

Working in a prison. It takes more than sanity for that job.
Remember reading about the Stanford prison experiment? There's a recent movie out. Worth a read and a view.
Hats off to everyone in public service. I once read that teachers are more in mortal danger than cops. Doubt that extends to prison guards.

 

[Tekate]

Yes it is.

Peace.

 

[redwood66]

I agree that the person should not have a badge. It is a great responsibility that the majority take very seriously.

If this affects the judgement of the officer/guard/etc

 

[ruby59]

I got lost in all those requotes.

Was this what you were posting?
_____________________________

I agree. Too much cutting and pasting over and over again makes it very difficult to follow.

 

[Niel]

I got lost in all those requotes.

Was this what you were posting?
_____________________________

I agree. Too much cutting and pasting over and over again makes it very difficult to follow.

I find no quiting at all also difficult to follow
Hard to know who you're quoting without the individuals name.

 

[ksinger]

Working in a prison. It takes more than sanity for that job.
Remember reading about the Stanford prison experiment? There's a recent movie out. Worth a read and a view.
Hats off to everyone in public service. I once read that teachers are more in mortal danger than cops. Doubt that extends to prison guards.

No, not really. Certainly not in most schools. They really aren't the actual war zones they are often portrayed as, although the environment inside - especially in the high schools - is a microcosm of the culture at large. Which is to say, in my husband's school, there were actual knifings and shootings, back in what he and his dad call/called "the war years" - the 1970s, when his dad was teaching. However, In over 20 years of teaching in the same high school as his dad, my husband has never actually encountered a gun (threats of them, but no actual weapons) or been threatened with a knife. I hope it stays that way.

Teachers are, however, in every bit as much danger of burning out emotionally, and needing a rubber room. My husband's father had a massive heart attack mere months after retirement.

 

[JaneSmith]

First of all, big high five to liaerfbv, AGBF, Maria D, Ksinger, Niel, ame, and probably a couple more I'm forgetting.

Secondly, arguing against gun control laws because criminals will still get them is just so ridiculous. Why have any laws at all?
Gun control laws have been very effective in other countries at reducing shootings.

And lastly, this is a terrible tragedy for all people directly involved and a blow to all police in the US and abroad. Police work is often dangerous and thankless and I am grateful to every officer for doing a good job.

Unfortunately some people respond like this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/joe-walsh-war-obama-black-lives-matter-dallas-article-1.2703883?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

And this:

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

 

[AnnaH]

K, I shouldn't have used "mortal." Teachers are, however, often the victims of violence, depending, as you said, on the particular school.
Neither police officers or teachers have it easy, I agree. Neither make the money they deserve. But that's another subject.

Again, I am very concerned that no one will want to serve as a police officer. Let's pray (for those who do so) that there won't be any copy cat killings of officers.

 

[redwood66]

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

I have never understood the need for a separate black or hispanic union. My union group had them also. But the overall union covering prison guards in CA was not just for white guards, it was for all guards. The others were not unions but associations. To me we are all on the same team. Why segregate? You could not lawfully have and call it a white correctional officer union. I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

 

[ame]

First of all, big high five to liaerfbv, AGBF, Maria D, Ksinger, Niel, ame, and probably a couple more I'm forgetting.

Secondly, arguing against gun control laws because criminals will still get them is just so ridiculous. Why have any laws at all?
Gun control laws have been very effective in other countries at reducing shootings.

And lastly, this is a terrible tragedy for all people directly involved and a blow to all police in the US and abroad. Police work is often dangerous and thankless and I am grateful to every officer for doing a good job.

Unfortunately some people respond like this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/joe-walsh-war-obama-black-lives-matter-dallas-article-1.2703883?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

And this:

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

ugh Roorda. StL collectively rolls their eyes, groans and calls for his resignation every single time he speaks. He seems to possess little to no logic or reason. It's always the cops are right and everyone else is wrong. But then again he's someone who was TERMINATED from his position as an officer and detective for repeatedly lying on police reports and then lost multiple lawsuits and appeals when trying to sue afterwards. How he came to be the voice of the local POA... Why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JaneSmith]

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

I have never understood the need for a separate black or hispanic union. My union group had them also. But the overall union covering prison guards in CA was not just for white guards, it was for all guards. The others were not unions but associations. To me we are all on the same team. Why segregate? You could not lawfully have and call it a white correctional officer union. I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

I am glad you feel like everyone is on the same team, really, no sarcasm. That is very important and I wish more people felt this way. But not understanding why there are separate unions shows simple ignorance of your country's history and the reality of present day racism.
They may not call it the White Saint Louis Police Association, but that is what it is, and black officers have to have their own to be fairly represented and have a place to be heard.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/1/1348628/-St-Louis-has-two-police-associations-one-for-white-officers-and-one-for-black-officers

There is deeply rooted systemic racism in the US, and one of the results is black people being targeted for harassment and execution by white cops.

 

[JaneSmith]

First of all, big high five to liaerfbv, AGBF, Maria D, Ksinger, Niel, ame, and probably a couple more I'm forgetting.

Secondly, arguing against gun control laws because criminals will still get them is just so ridiculous. Why have any laws at all?
Gun control laws have been very effective in other countries at reducing shootings.

And lastly, this is a terrible tragedy for all people directly involved and a blow to all police in the US and abroad. Police work is often dangerous and thankless and I am grateful to every officer for doing a good job.

Unfortunately some people respond like this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/joe-walsh-war-obama-black-lives-matter-dallas-article-1.2703883?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

And this:

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

ugh Roorda. StL collectively rolls their eyes, groans and calls for his resignation every single time he speaks. He seems to possess little to no logic or reason. It's always the cops are right and everyone else is wrong. But then again he's someone who was TERMINATED from his position as an officer and detective for repeatedly lying on police reports and then lost multiple lawsuits and appeals when trying to sue afterwards. How he came to be the voice of the local POA... Why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People who crave power are seldom the ones who should have it, but they are often the ones who get it.

 

[AGBF]

I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

JaneSmith said it a little differently, but I have essentially the same view that she does. Only white people ever say, "I guess I have no color" or other seemingly well meaning things that imply that we all alike and that people of color need no special protection, no organizations like "Black Lives matter" (because all lives matter, right?), no special associations within unions.

That is because only white people fail to see the truth that is stuck right into the faces of people of color: they DO have color and it is VISIBLE to everyone they meet!!! And it influences the way they are treated. And the police kill them in greater numbers. And that is a fact.

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

AGBF

 

[ame]

There have been calls for that POS to resign or be fired for ...ever. One can only hope. Our city chief is also being demanded a resignation of as well.

I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

JaneSmith said it a little differently, but I have essentially the same view that she does. Only white people ever say, "I guess I have no color" or other seemingly well meaning things that imply that we all alike and that people of color need no special protection, no organizations like "Black Lives matter" (because all lives matter, right?), no special associations within unions.

That is because only white people fail to see the truth that is stuck right into the faces of people of color: they DO have color and it is VISIBLE to everyone they meet!!! And it influences the way they are treated. And the police kill them in greater numbers. And that is a fact.

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

AGBF

It keeps needing to be repeated, but unless you're a person of color, (or married to one or otherwise related, perhaps), you have NO IDEA what life is like for a person of color. White privilege exists, and I wish white people would stop pretending it doesn't and start working on eradicating it.