What would you do?

[Kaleigh]

Time for boundaries to be set. Your MIL not including and disrespecting your DD is NOT ok. That is that. Can you change her? Nope. Your husband can't. Not sure how much he has tried... I know you said he kinda tried but it was last ditch effort kind of try about the evite..


Stand firm. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me!!

 

[tyty333]

puppmom, excellent idea to talk to the therapist before discussing with MIL. In light of your DH's anxiety issues I dont see a problem
with you taking the lead. I would not want to pressure him and make his anxiety any worse.

I'm also wondering if you can cut your MIL off at the pass by saying something like "While I know you will
try to pass this off as a minor misunderstanding (as usual), I believe you have made a conscious decision not to invite DD and her children.
While you may feel that it's ok not to invite our whole family, DH and I do not. Therefor, we will be doing our own thing this year."

The end...that's all...I would try to leave at that point. I would not want to listen to her defend herself. I would not really want it
to be a 2 way discussion. If she knows you are going to call her on this stuff and then she cant explain herself so she can come out looking
like an innocent rose then maybe she'll think twice about doing it.

I would state its as clearly as possible. I would try not to show any emotion (no anger, frustration etc). And like
someone said, you cant change her attitude. I was going to say something about understanding that it's hard for the older
generation to accept some of the newer ways but it really sounds like there is more going on.

Good luck

 

[partgypsy]

As someone with a psychology background, I don't think it is necessary to armchair diagnose the MIL. There are older generations who have strong prejudices, and they are not going to suddenly change their spots even if it means losing relationships. Sad to say, DD was already not biologically related to MIL. Now that she has 2 children out of wedlock, apparently that crossed the line in her mind, and she either a) she strongly disapproves or b) does not consider DD and also her children part of the family. Or both. Sad to say even if it's wrong, the fact that she is paying for the rental means she can chose to invite who she wants.

I do like what the previous poster said, is to speak to mil in a calm factual way, that you consider them all your children and your family and you want a vacation where there is room for everyone. If not you will be making your own vacation plans. Even better if your husband speaks for you all. Like your husband says, you can't change her, can only choose your own behavior.

 

[azstonie]

Do what is best for *your* family. Just do it. No need to justify it, argue with anyone about it, defend your decision, or explain it further. It. Just.IS. She doesn't OWN you and yours.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Puppmom, I don't have any great advice, but I am sorry you are having to go through this. We have had the same kind of issues with my IL.
I have one son who had some serious drug issues, and has been clean and doing great for a year and a half. At my DD's wedding, they made terrible comments to him that were so uncalled for. DH did confront them about it and they backed down. It was awful, and I am really still not over it. We haven't been to see them since. They value their own children far above IL's or grandchildren. All I can say, is I will do my very best to never be anything like them.

 

[KaeKae]

People with PDs do not have relationships, they take hostages. Anyone who doesn't give them control is Devalued, Demeaned, and Discarded (what she's done with your DD).

Omg, azstonie. I don't want to derail puppmom's thread, this one line just struck a cord for me, regarding a choice I made many years ago. Thank you for validating that decision.


Puppmom,
I now have to finish the rest of the responses you've recieved, but I want to offer you support and applause for dealing with this situation. Hugs.
Kk

 

[Gypsy]

The 'why' does not matter.

She has carved out your daughter and what are you going to do about it? You can kiss MIL's fanny, tell her it's not fair, blah blah blah.

You are going to either support your DD or you're going to give MIL free reign over *your* family. You're going to have to choose, because make no mistake, thus far MIL has outsmarted you here, she's leveraging you via the younger kids.

Time for you to have family vacations of your own. Tell your children the truth, you aren't doing your adult daughter any favors exposing her to MIL vwho obviously finds her so distasteful that its a hill she's willing to die on.

Your younger children can understand a simple version of what's happening here: Grandma did not invite (sister's name), so we will vacation where (sister) is invited and welcome.

I agree with one alteration. MIL, if crafty, will probably deny she did not invite DD. I would just tell the kids that MIL was worried about the space considerations (since that is exactly what she said) and you all are going, but will stay in your own rental.

All you have to say to MIL is, "Okay well, in light of your concerns we'll get our own place."

She's using her passive aggressiveness, DH's good nature, and her pocket book against you.

To me getting your own rental strikes exactly the right balance. You are telling MIL that what she is doing is not okay. And you all are getting your vacation. If anyone brings it up while you are there just say, "MIL had some space concerns so we decided to do our own thing." It's none of their business.

And you are supporting your DD. And you aren't causing any real waves.

If you DH has a problem tell him, "I'm being considerate of your mother's feelings, and trying to keep the peace. I can't put DD in an uncomfortable position, and I can't put MIL in an uncomfortable position, so this is the best way to keep the peace."

As someone with a mother who is a narcissist I can tell you that confronting them and all that... it only works if you have them over a barrel and you are the ONE thing they value aside from themselves. And I'm sorry to say none of you: You, DD, or her children make that list.

You need to learn to navigate AROUND people like this because going through them is bloody. And your DH is clearly NOT prepared for that battle, and frankly it could put your marriage into jeapordy if you push him on this.

One thing my DH has ALWAYS done is never force me to chose between him and my mother. So when my mother started acting out badly and trying to force me to chose her... I chose the one person NOT pressuring me. And, in my case, I WAS the one person, other than herself, that my mother truly could not do without, so she made (minor, but enough) changes. Your MIL, from what you are telling me, is not in that place at all. And she would be perfectly happy to cut you ALL out over this.

 

[packrat]

What Gypsy is saying, that's how my MIL was. Crafty. JD was the only person she couldn't do w/out, but she continually tried to pit me and her against each other, and me and JD. She did everything she could to insert herself and make JD believe he couldn't live w/out her, trying any way possible to control JD and to control our marriage, and once he had that realization, that was the end of the story. We were getting to the "D" word and he finally saw who was pulling the strings. She made her own decisions and choices, and in the end, she died alone b/c she'd tried to control everyone and be the one everyone couldn't live w/out, and everyone just...left.

Our kids were little when all this was going on tho-Trapper doesn't even remember her. I think about *my* relationship w/my grandparents, and the utter devastation of losing them, but having the memories to make me smile while I cried, and for Trapper, even for London really, his mom was just someone we told them was their grandma b/c she was their daddy's mom. Grandma in name only, and that was a choice of her own making..and that's sad.

It makes me sad to think of Puppmom's daughter, to have those memories of her gramma, those times w/her gramma, and to have that gramma pretty much turn her back on her, all for being an imperfect human-the same as we all are, including that Grandma. It just breaks my *heart*. One of my gramma's is a devout Jehovah's Witness--and here I am, a tattooed, holiday celebrating, not sure if I believe in anything, heathen. And that gramma loves me like I hung the moon.

Sorry..I'm a relate-er. Just makes me sad. I'm glad your daughter has you in her corner tho, Puppmom. That will make a huge difference for her as she gets older and those kiddos get older too, knowing you have her back and you will stand up for her. That will help her have the courage to stand up for herself should she need to also.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This topic brought back memories of an Aunt of mine, my Aunt Sophie. Aunt Sophie was a lovely woman, kind thoughtful, and as a teenager I wanted to go live with her. We weren't friends, nor close, but I like her.

she was a church going woman with Christian values, Protestant ones. So, when her eldest son married a Catholic woman, five yrs older then her son, she refused to go to the wedding. When I became pregnant and "had" to get married she refused to send a gift or give congratulations. But, to her credit, she said all this up front.

Five yrs after her sons marriage she announced she had changed her mind. She liked her daughter-in law. Seven yrs after my marriage, she came to the house and told me she was giving me a wedding gift, which was a substantial check.

I was never mad at her. I understood these were her values. Her way of showing disapproval was with holding a gift. Other wise she was still kind to my children and would still speak kindly to me. We just felt her disapproval in the one regard.

I'm with part gypsy here. Just nicely explain that you wish your daughter to be included in the family vacation, and if MIL is uncomfortable with that, then you will rent a house nearby to include your daughter. Just ask her to be nice t your daughter and her children, as that would be the right thing to do.

When my aunt died I was sad. I loved her.

Annette

 

[azstonie]

People with PDs do not have relationships, they take hostages. Anyone who doesn't give them control is Devalued, Demeaned, and Discarded (what she's done with your DD).

Omg, azstonie. I don't want to derail puppmom's thread, this one line just struck a cord for me, regarding a choice I made many years ago. Thank you for validating that decision.


Puppmom,
I now have to finish the rest of the responses you've recieved, but I want to offer you support and applause for dealing with this situation. Hugs.
Kk

Hi KaeKae, glad you're out from under. Once you've had that experience or exposure and you see it for what it is, you remember it and you NEVER tolerate it again. Glad you're doing well

 

[minousbijoux]

Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful advice (and for sticking up for DD!). It seriously has me choked up. This whole situation is so upsetting to me. The vacation was just the last straw so to speak. It all started when DD got pregnant with her first. Prior to that MIL and DD were close. DD was a typical teenager and that created a little distance but nothing unusual. Once MIL found out DD was pregnant she asked to watch my youngest at her house so she didn't have to see DD (she was watching my youngest 3 days a week at the time). I hit the roof. DH told her absolutely not and that we could make other childcare arrangements and she backed off saying it wasn't a big deal To him, that was the end of it. I have not forgotten that. DD ended up moving out a short time later because that's what she and her boyfriend planned to do anyway. Between her work schedule and preparing to move, she didn't see MIL much. A lot has happened since then (that was two years ago) but nothing huge - I just notice that she does not ever mention DD and does not ask about her children. When we have get-togethers, MIL is very awkward around DD. I sent a mass text when DD's water broke at just less than 31 weeks and got concerned responses from everyone except MIL who just responded 'Ok'. Not ONE TIME did she ask how DD was while in the hospital - never mind visiting or sending anything to her. Friends and family from everywhere sent books and magazines and personal care products or just called or sent a text to say hello. Nothing from her. When the baby was born a week later - again nothing. Literally didn't even ask how the baby was doing the entire five weeks he was in the NICU. I once rushed out of dinner early to deliver pumped milk to him before the NICU closed for shift change. It concerned her that I was leaving in a hurry so she asked where I was off to. When I told her, she just said "Oh." I've complained to DH many times but I've heard so many times that "she doesn't mean anything by it" that I started to think that I was seeing something that wasn't there or making something of nothing.

I don't know much of what happened with DH's other sister. There was a time when SIL and DH were communicating with her but she was very bitter and the conversations were always brief and she would give very little personal information. Once our kids were born DH put in less effort (it wasn't much in the first place) and now hasn't talked to her in a few years. SIL does but very infrequently and I'm pretty sure it's only letters that again reveal very little. It's strange to me that DH was 12 and doesn't remember much. 12 is pretty old. I can remember most things from that age - at least big events.

Sorry about the rambling. I feel really terrible for having allowed this to go on for so long. DH and I talked this weekend. He agreed that there is a problem with MIL. He admitted that he thought this particular problem was solved when MIL said she could come (never mind the fact that she's obviously not wanted and there's nowhere for her or kids to sleep!). He keeps saying, "I can't change the way she feels. I can only control me." I understand that but that doesn't mean that we don't let her know that this is unacceptable. I have to be honest. It's killing me a little that he hasn't already put his foot down with her. I have a lump in my throat just thinking about it. DH stayed home with our kids while studying to for a new career for two years then recently went back to work. It was very difficult for him emotionally. He started having pretty bad anxiety. That is much improved (thank goodness!) but I feel worried whenever I have to discuss anything *heavy* with him because he was always so easy going so this is all very new to me. I haven't quite learned how to navigate difficult conversation because of the constant worry that I'll make him feel worse. I'm working on figuring that out.

So...I think we are going to talk to her and point out that we have noticed her behavior and that it's not acceptable. We haven't determined the setting. I have a pretty good feeling what her response will be. She will act like she had no idea what she was doing could be perceived that way and it's all a big misunderstanding. I'm afraid that it won't get very far because DH will accept that response. But we'll see.

As for the vacation, we're not going. We'll find something else to do...or we won't. Either is okay. I don't want to spend that much time with someone who doesn't value all of my children (and grandchildren). Seriously, DD's babies are the sweetest, most beautiful children and this makes me sad for them too.

Thank you again. This has really been weighing on me this weekend and to check in and see all this thoughtful advice and encouragement was just plain nice.

ETA - I'm still struggling with how telling her how we feel and that this is unacceptable will turn out. Other than not going on this vacation, I don't have any "consequences". She's a grown up and I can't control her. So I'm still going through in my head - what will give her reason enough to change her tude, if anything?

You cannot change one single thing about another person (your MIL), there is no "reason for her to change her attitude" particularly because both you and your DH seem confused by her behaviors. You didn't create her problems, you can't cure her problems, and you cannot manage them either. Chances are she has a personality disorder---malignant narcissist or a borderline. Never, and I mean never, detail or describe your feelings to a person with a PD as with those in their hands, you give them a clear target and it's right in the middle of your forehead. Never give personal details about any of your children, whom she is in the process of grooming to be under her control. She was in the middle of grooming your eldest daughter and the reason your MIL shows 0 interest in her now is because your DD is of no use to her now. Never discuss your marriage, money, health or career with MIL either.

People with PDs do not have relationships, they take hostages. Anyone who doesn't give them control is Devalued, Demeaned, and Discarded (what she's done with your DD).

Your job as a mother is to protect your children. She has shown you who she is and how she views your children. Pitting family members against one another is a favored tool and so is scapegoating. You have both those going on here.

Of course she knows what she's doing, she's good at it! Don't indulge in discussion with her, you decide what her contact will be with your children and you don't Justify it to her, Argue it with her, Defend yourself, or Explain yourself to her (JADE). It just *is.* You're the mother, what you say goes.

Wow, Aztonie, your wisdom and knowledge of psychology is awesome; you certainly have responded with Puppmom in mind and given her sound advice and realistic expectations.

 

[minousbijoux]

I just wanted to add that for what its worth, I don't think your MIL has schemed this up nor do I believe she devotes any real time to thinking about ways to get her way. Anyone who can cut her daughter out of her life that easily and repeat it with your DD is very good at making a decision, sticking to it, and then not spending time angsting over it.

So 1) I don't think she's a deep, honest talker and doubt that a "serious" discussion about feelings and inclusion will be that productive or satisfying for you, but you certainly can try. 2) she seems to come at it strictly from her need based approach, willing and able to discard what she deems superfluous baggage and that likely won't change - you know her well and as you said, often come away feeling that you and she had two different conversations. 3) you know what you and DH need, a happy and cherished immediate family (I mean you and your kids). 4) Its hard for DH, so I would not make this a knock down, drag out fight with MIL (not that you were). Not necessary to try and change her way of thinking or pull out of the family altogether; no ultimatums, just your needs. 5) understand that once you calmly explain your family expectations, she may or may not play as active a role in your life, but if she does, it will be on the terms you've delineated.

Good luck - you sound like a great DIL, Mom and friend.

 

[azstonie]

I have 55 years of experience with just this kind of krap in both sides of my family, several generations Lots of therapy off and on through the years as their disordered behaviors worsened with time. Outofthefog.net and ihatemyinlaws.com rounding out thousands $ in books. One certification after teaching credential as a school psychologist (unknowingly in beginning trying to fix my family).

I've been the scapegoat like the DD above and I've been the Golden Child, both terrible in their own ways.

Discussion, logic, fairness/kindness, are useless to request when you have a narcissist, a borderline, or someone who's controlled things for years. The sanest response is to live *your* life without apologies or catering/half measures to the abuser.

Best wishes to us all who have this kind of insanity going on around us!! Lots of good advice, comment and experience from the post-ers here.

 

[Puppmom]

I've been reading all of your responses and appreciate how thoughtful everyone is in applying their own experience. I'm really so grateful to be able to solicit independent opinions. My phone has minimal battery so I'll keep this brief. DH and I talked tonight and it didn't end well. He apparently misunderstood when I said I'm not comfortable going because it's clear DD isn't welcome. He wants to go and take our boys without me. We can't skip because:

- they spent a lot of money
- they said she could come
- he doesn't want to miss out on vacation with his family
- he thinks it will be fun
- maybe he wasn't clear with them that they can't exclude her

He also suggested just seeing if DD wants to go knowing how the ILs feel. Then if she doesn't problem solved because she didn't want to go anyway! I got loud. I got angry. I cried. As I mentioned before I've been so careful with my words lately because DH is having anxiety so I think this just built up and am so frustrated. I cannot explain the feeling.

He says he agrees how they treat her is not right. It's not acceptable but guess he ain't gonna let that ruin his vacation.

You guys - I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

 

[Calliecake]

I've been reading all of your responses and appreciate how thoughtful everyone is in applying their own experience. I'm really so grateful to be able to solicit independent opinions. My phone has minimal battery so I'll keep this brief. DH and I talked tonight and it didn't end well. He apparently misunderstood when I said I'm not comfortable going because it's clear DD isn't welcome. He wants to go and take our boys without me. We can't skip because:

- they spent a lot of money
- they said she could come
- he doesn't want to miss out on vacation with his family
- he thinks it will be fun
- maybe he wasn't clear with them that they can't exclude her

He also suggested just seeing if DD wants to go knowing how the ILs feel. Then if she doesn't problem solved because she didn't want to go anyway! I got loud. I got angry. I cried. As I mentioned before I've been so careful with my words lately because DH is having anxiety so I think this just built up and am so frustrated. I cannot explain the feeling.

He says he agrees how they treat her is not right. It's not acceptable but guess he ain't gonna let that ruin his vacation.

You guys - I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

Oh Puppmom I am so sorry honey. I can feel your pain in this post. I too like others on this thread had a similar relationship with my MIL. I really do understand how hurt you are feeling right now and I'm sorry you are going thru this.

 

[minousbijoux]

Puppmom: this sucks. It really does. Especially for you.

Given this recent turn of events (and I'm truly sorry that you and DH right now have differing perspectives on the situation), I might take a slightly different approach and just go. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but hear me out.

If nothing has been said to MIL yet, you could all go with the plan you contemplated earlier: your DD in one room with her kids and you, DH and your youngest in the other. You lightly make it clear to MIL that of course you would all go, you're one family. And if its tight in the rooms, and sometimes spillover occurs into the living room, oh well, that happens - its just her grandkids after all - and its fine, we're all one big family, right? It might not be the most relaxing vacation, but it would make the point and I bet that it will result in changed behavior on her part regarding the next family vacation. Why? Because she will be directly affected.

You will have diplomatically made your point; DH will have shown his love for his DD, and his MIL; and MIL will get the point that you are a unified front. I bet she will decide that a bigger house is in order for future years, or, if she really can't stomach it, she will not plan a future family vacation...

 

[Gypsy]

YIKES.

Seriously.

Um.

My thoughts, in no particular order.

I know you realize this, and I don't know how you can explain it to him but:

You and DH MUST MUST MUST be a united front to your MIL, especially on this issue. You cannot fracture like like and show division. Because it will make it a YOU versus HER fight, with him on the fence.

And that is to be avoided at all costs.

What I would say to him is this: he has three options:

Option One: DD goes and you stay home.

When he married you he accepted your daughter as his own. So when he says he wants to take "his kids" and go on a vacation, that darned well better include her. So if he wants to go without you HE MUST TAKE HER. And if anyone stays home due to whatever "concerns" your MIL has it is you. BUT your daughter goes. And if your MIL doesn't treat her right, then HE has to speak up for her.

Option Two: You guys go, but stay somewhere separate and DD comes too.

Option three: there is the door. Have fun living with your mother. Because if you chose her over me and put me in this position, your mother is who you will be living with. Have fun.

 

[rainydaze]

I've been reading all of your responses and appreciate how thoughtful everyone is in applying their own experience. I'm really so grateful to be able to solicit independent opinions. My phone has minimal battery so I'll keep this brief. DH and I talked tonight and it didn't end well. He apparently misunderstood when I said I'm not comfortable going because it's clear DD isn't welcome. He wants to go and take our boys without me. We can't skip because:

- they spent a lot of money
- they said she could come
- he doesn't want to miss out on vacation with his family
- he thinks it will be fun
- maybe he wasn't clear with them that they can't exclude her

He also suggested just seeing if DD wants to go knowing how the ILs feel. Then if she doesn't problem solved because she didn't want to go anyway! I got loud. I got angry. I cried. As I mentioned before I've been so careful with my words lately because DH is having anxiety so I think this just built up and am so frustrated. I cannot explain the feeling.

He says he agrees how they treat her is not right. It's not acceptable but guess he ain't gonna let that ruin his vacation.

You guys - I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

Oh pupp, I feel frustrated for you.

With the reasons 'he doesn't want to miss out on vacation with his family' and 'he thinks it will be fun', okay. He's not likely going to see the light in time for this vacation. I wouldn't create a divide with him over it trying to force the issue on a deadline. I'd rent our own house so that DD can be included and everyone can be comfortable. That allows you to start setting a boundary. Then I would gently bring to his attention the way MIL is treating DD while on vacation, and how that takes away some of the fun for *DD* and *you*. Hopefully he cares enough to start seeing it. And realizing some changes really are in order. That will hopefully begin better conversations and a journey towards being united in setting boundaries with MIL.

It would also be nice if your DH saw the importance of being independent. Unless having MIL take you all on vacation is the only way you get to have one, it's high time DH fully realized his own independence and the two of you provided vacation for your own family. Especially because she sounds like the type of parent who uses it to pull strings, albeit passively. Sure, you can take your vacation along with his family, or others, if that's what you (all!) enjoy, but you pay for it yourselves and have control over where you stay and who goes. DH is an adult, he needs to behave like one, which includes ensuring that his mother respects him as one. That also includes respecting his family. How you get him to see this, though, I have no idea. That's even more tricky waters!

But the last line, 'He agrees how they treat her is not right. It's not acceptable but guess he ain't gonna let that ruin his vacation.' is more troubling. That tells me that he does see the situation clearly, and he doesn't care. He wants his vacation, paid for my mother, and two of the people he has pledged to care for in life don't factor in. Is that just your frustration and hurt venting out, or is that something he said, or is that really how he came off in your conversation? None of this would 'ruin his vacation' if he would plan and pay for 'his vacation' himself (yourselves), but it seems he likes being taken care of by his mother. That, just, no.

 

[marymm]

YIKES.

Seriously.

Um.

My thoughts, in no particular order.

I know you realize this, and I don't know how you can explain it to him but:

You and DH MUST MUST MUST be a united front to your MIL, especially on this issue. You cannot fracture like like and show division. Because it will make it a YOU versus HER fight, with him on the fence.

And that is to be avoided at all costs.

What I would say to him is this: he has three options:

Option One: DD goes and you stay home.

When he married you he accepted your daughter as his own. So when he says he wants to take "his kids" and go on a vacation, that darned well better include her. So if he wants to go without you HE MUST TAKE HER. And if anyone stays home due to whatever "concerns" your MIL has it is you. BUT your daughter goes. And if your MIL doesn't treat her right, then HE has to speak up for her.

Option Two: You guys go, but stay somewhere separate and DD comes too.

Option three: there is the door. Have fun living with your mother. Because if you chose her over me and put me in this position, your mother is who you will be living with. Have fun.

These are exactly the thoughts/options that went through my head when I read your latest post, OP.

Is it possible your DH does not understand this will be a precedent-setting decision, no matter what? Would he be as blase if it were one of his younger children being excluded/unwelcome? Does he not see the correlation to how his Mom banished his sister from the family?

 

[tyty333]

Oh puppmom, I'm sorry...I dont know what to say. I guess my thoughts would be to go and rent your own place if you can (doesnt
sound like DH is up for that). OR, like minousbijoux said, go and squeeze into the 2 rooms. See how MIL treats your DD and her
kids. Then perhaps on the last day discuss next years plans. Maybe that you will pay for your share of the house so you have
enough rooms because it's your family vacation and you want DD&kids there. The fact that they are the ones paying for the place IMO,
means they can invite who they want. If you pay your part of the house then you get to invite your whole family. Again, I wouldnt
make a big deal about it. Just stick to the facts. If MIL did not treat DD&kids well, then tell them that you will be getting your own
place next year.

I would not let my DH go without me unless I really didnt want to go. This may start a new tradition though of him and your younger
kids going without you every year. Not sure you want to go there.

Well, good luck. Your DH just seems like he wants to have a fun/inexpensive vacation and ignore family dynamics. Kind of tough
to know what to do because of the anxiety issue. Hopefully the therapist will have some ideas.

 

[Queenie60]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. She is very similar to my MIL - holding you hostage to do things her way or no way at all. Personally, I would not go on the vacation simply to make my point loud and clear. There was a point in my marriage where I told my husband that he can side with his mother, but to remember that i'm the one he sleeps with. Well, that certainly opened his eyes and he came to terms with her manipulative ways. I sought therapy for a while just to be able to deal with her while I worked through with my feelings regarding her deceptive ways. You're at a crossroad at this point and must think this through very carefully. And you need to do what's best for you and your family, despite all of the advise given here. I wish you well and hope that all of this works out for the best.

 

[packrat]

Ugh, what a horrible situation. Agree w/Gypsy tho. I would hope for #2 but be prepared to carry out #3. That's where I was back in the day and it's just not a fun place to be. Agree on the united front thing-boy howdy you guys both have to be on the same page and both have to put your foot down-he can't be wishy washy on it or MIL will run roughshod right over him and go for you as the instigator.

 

[telephone89]

Ugh pupmom. I hated reading your update.

I have to say, it sounds like you have a problem on your hands. It's called a mommas boy. I have one too. It took a LONG time to make him understand why it's important to side with me, his PARTNER, and not continue to slide by not DISAGREEING with his mother. Not agreeing, but not disagreeing either. Because she only ever saw it as agreeing. If he doesn't voice concern now, he will continue this pattern, and she will continue her ways as well.

I have been in a similar situation as some of the other pps. After a disagreement when he decided to try to play the fence, but eventually caved and took his mothers side. Against me. He saw that I don't **** around and if he won't stand by me, not make me his priority, I will not tolerate it. I can't even imagine how much worse this would be if we had a family together.
What your H is doing is dividing your family. Him + his kids + his mom vs you + dd + her kids. That is NOT ok. You guys need to have a come to jesus talk ASAP.

As someone else said, this vacation is going to be precedent setting - however it goes. It can go well - MIL caves and realizes if she wants to see BOTH OF YOU and your other kids, she needs to include DD+kids. Or, it can go bad, and she knows that she can split up the family as she sees fit because she's throwing money around. I feel like whichever way it goes, that is how it will continue.

 

[nala]

It's unfortunate that this situation has escalated to a power struggle? I have a teen daughter and I still vacation with her and my hubby, her stepdad. His family is very generous and has always invited us on "free" vacations but it took one ski trip early on to realize that we had very different ideas of vacations. Luckily, my hubby and I don't have kids together and so I don't have to split vacations with my kids. He is free to vacation with his family, but I have declined to go after the ski trip. And he has chosen not to go bc he would rather go with us. My daughter is going off to college this fall, and I have already discussed that as she becomes more independent, we may no longer do our annual vacation. She will have to work and mature and start paying for her extras. I consider vacations an extra and will no longer pay for her because I want her ti become independent. I will be paying for her college, but she will work to pay for one third of it and her personal expenses. Tbh, my opinion may not be popular, but it offers a different perspective so I wanted to share it. It may only address the financial aspect of your issue, but I think setting boundaries has been helpful to me. I would never keep my hubby from taking a vacation with his family, esp if they want to spend time with his kids. I can see where he is coming from and in your place, I would go. I chose not to go early on and I have no regrets, but we don't have kids together. And like I said, at some point your daughter needs to make her own traditions and she will. Sooner or later, she may not want to travel with you bc she is an adult. Maybe you can start a new tradition and travel with her when you get back.
Eta: please don't ask your hubby to choose or to show him the door. I'm sure your DD would not like to know that she was part of the reason you both got to this point. nothing good can come from an ultimatum. And your daughter, being a mother herself, with her own life, will understand that it's time to make new traditions. Trust me.

 

[azstonie]

Its only a power struggle if you make anyone else part of the decision process, right?
1. If its a family vacation, ALL FAMILY welcome and included.
2. If not, NO DICE. NO ONE carves out your sons either, btw, no Pupmom, NO KIDDOS either.

Drop the rope. There's no tug of war if you don't pick up the rope. SImple: You're not going, your sons are not going, your DD and her dear children are not going. Husband can go pretend to be MILs husband and slave as his vacation experience.

Priorities and Loyalty: Your husband is either YOUR HUSBAND first/foremost or he's her widdle baby boy. You come first. Your family comes first. Not mommy dearest. She had her family, she doesn't get yours too.

This is a hill to die on, Pupmom. Its exposing a flaw in your marriage. You're married to a man who puts his mother first, before his wife, before his children. When all his BS excuses are trotted out, that is just what they are. Fact is, his mommy gets what she wants, when she wants it, in the manner in which she likes it. You, apparently, may go pound sand?

NO ONE, AND I MEAN NO ONE, CARVES OUT YOUR SONS TO VACATION WITH MOMMY DEAREST WITHOUT YOU. NO ONE OSTRACIZES YOUR DD/GRANDCHILDREN TO VACATION WITH MOMMY DEAREST WITHOUT THEM.

Look at how great this is going for your MIL: Conflict in your marriage, your DD going to be made to feel dirty and less than, and MIL is potentially going to have your DH on vacation with her, pretending to be HER husband with 'their' children (your sons). Yes, its creepy, it is called emotional incest. Your DH is suggesting an incestuous setup to satisfy mommy and punish you.

I'm sorry. You deserve a real husband.

 

[Puppmom]

Still have a lump in my throat about this today. I could tell DH felt bad this morning but, if history's any indication, that doesn't mean he's going to stand up to his parents.

To clarify a few things:

DH did not say he's not going to let this ruin his vacation. That's my perception because I honestly do not understand how he thinks going without me means that he's letting his mother know her treatment of DD is not acceptable. So, to me, the vacation itself (and pleasing his parents) is more important. On some level I feel bad for him because, as upset as I am, he knows that I WILL be there when all is said and done but if he crosses a line with his mom maybe she won't be. And I wonder if that's is in his subconscious.

I feel bad. Hindsight is 20/20 but I realize now ignoring her behavior led us to this point.

I feel like I've been duped on some level by DH. I asked him to address this months ago and wonder if he waited so long to make it difficult to "back out" even though I never committed in the first place. MIL doesn't know that.

This is not about a vacation. I know I'm a grown up and can pay for my own vacation. I know DD should be (and is!) independent. But this particular vacation is a family tradition. Everyone goes every time every other year for the last 16 years. The ILs pay for it because they want everyone to go every time and they know this isn't everyone else's first choice for a vacation. This is a vacation they don't want to do alone. They specifically plan it for the family. We pay for the food because they won't take money for the rental and feel like we should make a contribution.

I don't want to make my husband choose between me and his mother. I just want him to stand up for his family and I just don't understand why that's not happening. And I don't understand why he doesn't see that his actions (or planned actions) conflict with how he says he feels.

Sorry, I know these posts aren't very articulate and hopefully aren't painful to read. I'm having a hard time thinking straight because, frankly, I'm pissed. And I'm overwhelmed. I just wish she didn't feel or act this way but that's not how it is.

And a special thanks to MIL for her ill timed email today. It's a picture of my 5 year old holding a sparkler last 4th of July with a friendly reminder from the family "worry wart" (her words) that sparklers are dangerous - especially in the hands of children! What ever would we do without her?

Again, seriously - thank you. It is so nice to be able to brainstorm and hear other people's opinions and experiences. I know ultimately I have to decide but this is truly very helpful.

 

[azstonie]

You wouldn't expect your husband to put the needs and health of his DW and family before his mother's?

Really?

Who DO you and the children take priority over when it comes to DH?

(Rhetorical questions.)

 

[chrono]

Puppmom,
I am sorry you are going through this. It sounds like your DH wants to take the easy way out - pretend everything is okay because he's afraid of rocking the boat. As a wife, I would not tolerate it if my DH puts the needs and wants of his mother over our family. I'm not sure if I'm reading your post correctly but it sounds like he feels that if he upsets you, you'll stick by him no matter what, whereas his mother won't, therefore, he's choosing to side with his mother because he KNOWS you will stick by him.

 

[Puppmom]

Aztonie, I know you said your questions are rhetorical but...I do expect that he put our needs first. Absolutely. He seems to think he can make everyone happy. I disagree.

Chrono, I don't know what's going through his head. I was just thinking that maybe on a subconscious level he feels like I'll be there no matter what but based on the past maybe his mother will not be. I don't know this to be true. I'm just trying to understand the root of his resistance to just put his foot down...firmly.

 

[chrono]

MIL isn't going to change, based on past history. I would talk to DH in-depth about the vacation situation. I would not make any presumptions about what he thinks or feels but find out exactly what he thinks, what he feels, and what he's going to do about it.