EU Referendum: Best night to Buy Kiki!

[Jambalaya]

And, attempting to find another silver lining here: Perhaps people's finances will not be as badly hit as we think, because everyone knew this referendum was coming, and so hopefully have had time to take action.

Surely it must be much worse when a crisis hits out of the blue, like when all the banks fell a few years ago.

 

[ksinger]

And, attempting to find another silver lining here: Perhaps people's finances will not be as badly hit as we think, because everyone knew this referendum was coming, and so hopefully have had time to take action.

Surely it must be much worse when a crisis hits out of the blue, like when all the banks fell a few years ago.

DJIA
-3.12%
NASDAQ
-3.87%
S&P 500
-3.18%
FTSE 100
-3.15%
NIKKEI 225
-7.92%

 

[kenny]

I admit to ignorance about Brexit.
Why did it happen?
What will be the result ... both the big picture and the nuances.

Does anyone know a balanced, calm, UNBIASED website/story/blog etc. that sums up the Brexit pros and cons?
I'm looking for a summary that is not a tunnel-vision sales pitch for one side.

The things I read (including posts on all of the fora I read) all seem like panicked arguments for one side or the other.
This makes me skeptical of their content.
Nothing like this is simple or one-sided.

IMO predicting future economics is like predicting the weather.
Too complex to predict anything with certainty.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oooh shiney, I just read your whole post properly and I thought it was really, really interesting. It had a lot of information, instead of just hand-wringing.

About the sat nav and tracking issue, a number of points: Aren't we already tracked, in so many ways? Hasn't that ship sailed? Credit and debit cards, online banking, online transactions, speed cameras, security cameras...aren't we already on record in a million different ways? I have no idea how organized crime gangs get away with all their activities - you couldn't hide your tracks if you wanted to, without being forced to live in the wilderness. And I think the idea of data being sent to emergency services on impact seems a great idea. Couldn't that save lives? The idea that evil forces are going to use that data against us seems a little...um, sorry but I can't think of another word for what I want to say...isn't that a little paranoid? And also, you mentioned about charging to use the roads. Again, isn't that normal? I mean, not for every road, sure, but I know for a fact that France, the UK, and America all have toll roads. Toll roads are very old indeed. I never worry that the local government will suddenly put rush-hour tolls up and shaft everybody. Again, isn't that a little unlikely? While I know that London introduced a rush-hour charge to ease congestion, London had another way to transport people - a great network of tubes and trains and buses, which are much cheaper than driving a car to work.

So, it seems to me that trading alone without any block purchasing power is a much bigger concern than the things above. If Britain is negotiating trade agreements alone, won't it be tempting/easy for other countries to bully Britain with harsh terms because they can, because Britain is alone? I was under the impression that Britain doesn't export many goods these days but is a goods and services economy, so it doesn't have a lot of actual tangible goods that other countries want, and therefore won't be in a position of strength to negotiate alone?

I actually didn't think that Britain would leave, even when the Leavers starting edging ahead last night. I thought it was just a little drama before correcting, but the gap just got wider.

 

[Jambalaya]

And, attempting to find another silver lining here: Perhaps people's finances will not be as badly hit as we think, because everyone knew this referendum was coming, and so hopefully have had time to take action.

Surely it must be much worse when a crisis hits out of the blue, like when all the banks fell a few years ago.

DJIA
-3.12%
NASDAQ
-3.87%
S&P 500
-3.18%
FTSE 100
-3.15%
NIKKEI 225
-7.92%

I know, ksinger, but isn't this just shock right now? Like when someone wakes up from a traumatic operation? Won't the bleeding calm down?

 

[OoohShiny]

I read somewhere that only about 5% of Britain's trade is with Asia, due in large part to EU regulations. Is there a silver lining, at all, in that Britain is more free to establish trade links with emerging markets? I have no idea about this - I know nothing about Britain and its trade with Asia, but it's what I read and it seemed to make sense. Just trying to find some positives.

This is only a gut feeling, and a theory, but I wonder if this decision will be such a disaster that Britain will be forced, in the next 2-4 years, to hold another referendum and this time will vote to go back in, and so ultimately - as in, looking five years ahead - everything will be OK. I'm just wondering if that's how it will play out in the long term. I read that Britain was a very strong partner in the EU, so if the country voted to go back in, I can't imagine the EU would say no, but I'd imagine the terms would be harsher than before.

Back in 2009-2010 ish, I also read that the credit crisis in Britain was so bad that half the countries libraries closed, and the domestic trash collections in some areas went down to once every two weeks. This surely can't be as bad as that.

About Britain being -or appearing - small and alone, well isn't that the case, now? When they were alone before - as in, not part of a European Union - it was a completely different world because they had a whole Empire that they were drawing money from, including the huge continent of India!

Without an Empire, and without membership of the European Union, isn't it true that Britain is small and alone? Sorry if that's wrong, it just does seem that way because Britain now has no partners. I guess it's getting a divorce! It's a weird thing to witness. It seems instinctive to me to realize that we live in a global world with global markets, and that trading alone is not a good idea, but the Leavers seem so very sure of their decision. It's confusing.

The global credit crisis of 2008 hit hard in many places, including the UK, and government funding to local councils is getting reduced year on year - the Conservative government likes small government, hence it does not give out a lot of cash to actually run local authorities, and there are the increasing pressures seen everywhere in the world, such as rising energy and food demands and costs, rising demand for social care with a growing and ageing (spelling?) population, increasing costs for landfill etc. It is true to say that some of the 'unnecessary for daily existence' services have been cut in some places, such as libraries, and some places have also had waste collections reduced - but many of the latter areas are likely to have in place a strong recycling arrangement (metal, glass, paper, plastic, even waste food), meaning there is a lot less waste that fills a 'normal' trash can. This is indeed a time of austerity and the Conservative government has been cutting back hard on government expenditure - seemingly quite effectively, as I believe that budget deficits are reducing, but it is not always pleasant or easy.

The point of going it alone is that trade agreements can be struck that better suit the UK than the existing EU ones - the EU does limit trade options for individual countries within it AIUI. Obama made some comment about how the UK would be back of the line for new agreements with the US if it dared to leave the EU but Trump has congratulated the UK and seemingly would welcome trade with open arms. I'm sure Clinton would also be accommodating - I recall her husband had a good relationship with the UK when he was President. There are increasingly strong links to China (let's ignore their dubious Human Rights record for the purposes of this discussion lol) and seemingly the EU limits trade that can be undertaken with Australia and New Zealand, both countries similar in outlook to the UK and with things to trade between each other.

As you mention, if the UK goes back to the EU with its tail between its legs in x number of years, it's likely that the EU will seek to 'punish' such 'disobedience' by implementing stricter rules and regulations for its re-admittance. If that's not a clear sign that the EU is not the happy-smiley-we-love-everyone-and-just-want-to-work-for-the-greater-good place it says it is, I don't know what is!


The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world, AIUI - not bad for a small island of just 60(ish) million people. It is home to the leading money market within the EU area, and IIRC something like £1trillion of deals are transacted every single day. (This may be wrong - I know its an insane figure!) It is home to world-renowned universities (Oxford, Cambridge, etc) and is at the cutting edge of research in many areas - medical, automotive, engineering...

The US does not really have partners propping it up, and it fully supports business enterpreneurism and practices that improve things for itself, along with having a focus on individual self-betterment as a key element of 'the American dream' - work hard, stand on your own two feet, and you will be justly rewarded. The way I see it, this is the UK doing just that right now, and should be applauded for it.

 

[Jambalaya]

Wow Jambalaya.
You have no idea. This will highly impact UK citizens. People are already losing a lot of money (savings and pensions).
And it will highly impact other European countries, the Hong Kong market etc. etc. as the UK is a very important player in the global trade, economic and financial markets.

Enjoy the UK products you can buy at a lower price now... But your posts show an awkwardly bad taste and a complete lack of knowlegde on economic ties... The UK even can lose it's AAA status. Remember the Economic crisis in the States in 2008, followed by the crisis in Europe?

I've never made out on here that I am any intellectual level above what I am, and have frequently referred to how educated some other PSers are compared to me. The best thing that can be said about my lack of knowledge is that I am aware that there are huge gaps, which I guess is better than not being aware. I have no idea what you mean about AAA status. I've never heard of that term in my life, in this context. I'm guessing you don't mean the road-rescue service.

Just looked it up.

I certainly didn't mean to open any political discussions because I'm perfectly aware I can't hold my own in that way. All I wanted to do was to point out that if any of our designer-brand-lovers were planning purchases, now's a good time, and I started the thread because there was nothing on here to remind anyone about it. It was on my mind because I'm obsessed with Kiki McDonough. Wonder if any lurkers here made purchases. I bet no one would admit it, if they had!

Come to think of it, if everyone is so very concerned about the British, and Brexit, why did no one start a thread about it? It's long been the case that political discussion is allowed here now. If you (collective you) care so much, why didn't you say so before?

I guess it's just more fun to tell other people off in their thread than put your own neck out first, even if does fall on deaf ears.

My co-worker has emailed round saying his brother is going to France and the UK in a few weeks, and wonders if now is the best time to get her currency or should he wait in case the exchange rates fall even further? I guess I'm not the only tasteless person about! I suppose young first-time buyers who wait for housing bubbles to burst/cool off before buying their first house are tasteless, too!

I'm just kidding. I consider myself good-natured and don't really mind what anyone thinks.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oooh Shiney, interesting post. Regarding your last para. about being independent and going it alone, I've always seen the British character as being very independent and feisty, evidenced by the fact that they refused to give up the pound and have the euro. Since other European countries adopted the euro, there must have been huge pressure for Britain to do so?

I have a question, for anyone to answer, and it's a question I find very interesting but cannot even begin to answer myself:

If Britain HAD adopted the euro, would it have made pulling out of the EU impossible? And why? I want to say instinctively that Britain could not have pulled out if it had the euro, but I can't seem to articulate why I feel that way. Does anyone know what the scenario here would have been if Britain had the euro? I know it's only an "if" since Britain certainly isn't getting the euro now, but I just think it's a really interesting hypothetical thing to think about, in the light of what's happened.

 

[monarch64]

^ ^ ETA: in reference to your post above!

 

[Jambalaya]

I have two probably-stupid questions:

One: Are British people still European if they're not part of the EU? Britain is not located on the continent of Europe. I was under the impression that what made Britain European was being part of the EU. I'm sorry if this seems like the most stupid question ever, but the truth is that Britain is not located on the continent of Europe.

Two: Can the Queen vote? I'm thinking that she can't because she is not a subject.

ETA: I have a third question, again probably silly, but is there any chance this could be reversed? I'm thinking that the answer to this is no, because for the government to override a referendum would be the opposite of democracy, so it can't happen.

#divesforcover

Monarch, who - or which post - are you clapping??

 

[AGBF]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it because I may have missed a reference to it. But If the EU survives without England, I wonder if England will soon be voting again, this time to make a Brentrance. I mean, if it can leave, it can return, right? How long before they see that leaving was a huge mistake?

AGBF

 

[monarch64]

I have two probably-stupid questions:

One: Are British people still European if they're not part of the EU? Britain is not located on the continent of Europe. I was under the impression that what made Britain European was being part of the EU. I'm sorry if this seems like the most stupid question ever, but the truth is that Britain is not located on the continent of Europe.

Two: Can the Queen vote? I'm thinking that she can't because she is not a subject.

ETA: I have a third question, again probably silly, but is there any chance this could be reversed? I'm thinking that the answer to this is no, because for the government to override a referendum would be the opposite of democracy, so it can't happen.

#divesforcover

Monarch, who - or which post - are you clapping??

My post was meant to go right beneath your reply to Acinom--I didn't want to quote the whole thing since space is so limited on the internet.

 

[telephone89]

ETA: I have a third question, again probably silly, but is there any chance this could be reversed? I'm thinking that the answer to this is no, because for the government to override a referendum would be the opposite of democracy, so it can't happen.

I've heard yes. Something about voting in new MPs who want to stay, if they vote enough this could be seen as a sign that the referendum was wrong and could override it.
It would be incredibly tricky to actually pull off, as you say it would be almost anti-democratic to do so.

 

[Jambalaya]

Monarch, who - or which post - are you clapping??

My post was meant to go right beneath your reply to Acinom--I didn't want to quote the whole thing since space is so limited on the internet.

Oh, right! Well, I get fed up with "I art holier than thou" posturing, both on the internet and in life. I've never tried to make myself look good at others' expense and I can't understand the urge to do so. It's very mean of heart, petty, and small-minded, and it tends to be a permanent frame of mind, which I find desperately unattractive. It's depressing how many people do not extend kindness and lack of judgment to others. I think many things which I don't say, because I don't enjoy hurting others' feelings, which absolutely includes times when I think others are wrong.

 

[Jambalaya]

ETA: I have a third question, again probably silly, but is there any chance this could be reversed? I'm thinking that the answer to this is no, because for the government to override a referendum would be the opposite of democracy, so it can't happen.

I've heard yes. Something about voting in new MPs who want to stay, if they vote enough this could be seen as a sign that the referendum was wrong and could override it.
It would be incredibly tricky to actually pull off, as you say it would be almost anti-democratic to do so.

I don't know how the EU and UK parliaments work and what kind of crossover there is in terms of MPs and MEPs, but since the UK voted to leave, they're probably not going to vote in enough "stay" MPs?

 

[Rhea]

Many people voted because they are fed up of being dictated to by the EU and bullied into accepting things they don't want. Wanting control of one's own parliament and laws does not seem wrong to me. Would the US allow its laws to be dictated by Canada, for example?

As another example, the EU-machine is seemingly intent on tracking and monitoring its citizens at every opportunity, and is pushing plans to implement vehicle-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-infrastructure data transmission, including using GPS tracking. This issue is largely unknown to most because the EU has deliberately not made a big thing of it and is trying to sneak it in through the back door - such as requiring all vehicles sold from 2018 to have eCall emergency assistance, which contacts the emergency services and gives them your vehicle location and details of the crash you've just had, therefore meaning that it must be constantly monitoring your location. (BMW didn't tell the public this when it advertised "Free Sat Nav in all cars from now on!!" last year IIRC )

The implementation of this sort of constant monitoring ultimately mean a loss of privacy and the loss of freedom of movement - if they can track you, they can charge you, either with fines for exceeding the speed limit by 1mph, or simply by charging you to use a piece of road at any given time, i.e. Road User Charging. This means that those who are on the lower end of the socio-economic scale ultimately would not be able to afford to travel during the rush hour because the prices would be set high to deter travel at that time, meaning that their quality of life would suffer due to needing to spend longer travelling on cheaper route options or by needing to leave earlier in the morning/later in the evening.

I must admit that I've not read George Orwell's '1984' myself yet but it does seem as if the EU 'powers-that-be' have it as a reference book for their planned future for the EU.

A better comparison might be the US Federal government making rules and passing laws for the 50 states as a group. They are not forced upon the US by an outside country not participating, or going through the same thing, expected to obey the same rules.

For the constant monitoring, GCHQ is one of the worst offenders. Sure Edward Snowdon leaked what the CIA and US was monitoring, but the UK and GCHQ is no better and I'd wager may be worse. Or the illegal aggregation of data from police ANPR cameras. We don't need the EU to push through rules to monitor and track us, we do a great job of doing that, illegally according to the EU, ourselves.

 

[Jambalaya]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it because I may have missed a reference to it. But If the EU survives without England, I wonder if England will soon be voting again, this time to make a Brentrance. I mean, if it can leave, it can return, right? How long before they see that leaving was a huge mistake?

AGBF

Yes, I mentioned above that I had a theory this would be such a disaster that five years from now, Britain would be back in the EU. But I just love your phrase "Brentrance"!

Maybe we should call people who decamp to the "other" jewelry website Prexiteers!

 

[Jambalaya]

Rhea...about the issue of being tracked, you probably saw that I wrote above about how tracked we all are, already. Something I want to say about the tracking thing, which is an old response but I do believe in it, is this: If a person is doing nothing wrong and has no intention of doing anything wrong, why do you mind when it can be used for the greater good, like tracking terrorists? I do agree that all the tracking in our societies today is really annoying, but I think much of it is in response to terrorism. The other is that tracking is the price we pay for convenience. It's so convenient to shop and bank online, but it does leave a trail. However, I wouldn't want to go back to having to go to the bank in person for everything.

(Collective "you" used here, not you personally.)

 

[kenny]

www.kiki.co.uk

Dang, I hope Kiki never Kicks me.
She gots some pointy feet!

 

[Hounddog]

I thought this might be of interest...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36420148

I'm from the UK and it's what appears ( amongst others) online here when you search for ' Brexit..what next?'
It's from the BBC news website and as a UK resident it's trying to explain things to us! The BBC intends to be impartial (some people may question their success) but it tends to be reasonably balanced, educated etc...

I'm not a highly political person and I have no specialist knowledge so I cannot presume personally to add any enlightenment to the situation, but we're living in interesting times!

However, I do sincerely hope that now the UK has voted, the people of both sides will respect the result and work together to achieve the best outcome possible for the country.
It is fascinating to read everyone's views and comments.

 

[momhappy]

I thought this was interesting and there's a little video clip towards the end that sort summarizes Brexit
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024634/brexit-supporters-regret-vote

 

[LJsapphire]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it because I may have missed a reference to it. But If the EU survives without England, I wonder if England will soon be voting again, this time to make a Brentrance. I mean, if it can leave, it can return, right? How long before they see that leaving was a huge mistake?

AGBF

Yes, I mentioned above that I had a theory this would be such a disaster that five years from now, Britain would be back in the EU. But I just love your phrase "Brentrance"!

Maybe we should call people who decamp to the "other" jewelry website Prexiteers!

I read that Brentrance could take up to 10 years. I don't know if we would get expedited re-entry as a former member, but I know that Turkey has been trying to get in since 1987. I do know that the reasons it has taken so long are things like their civil and human rights, conflict and the borders with the middle east. We haven't got as many obstacles to cross but I know that it would have to be agreed by all the other member states & the european parliament.

 

[AGBF]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it because I may have missed a reference to it. But If the EU survives without England, I wonder if England will soon be voting again, this time to make a Brentrance. I mean, if it can leave, it can return, right? How long before they see that leaving was a huge mistake?

AGBF

Yes, I mentioned above that I had a theory this would be such a disaster that five years from now, Britain would be back in the EU. But I just love your phrase "Brentrance"!

Maybe we should call people who decamp to the "other" jewelry website Prexiteers!

I read that Brentrance could take up to 10 years. I don't know if we would get expedited re-entry as a former member, but I know that Turkey has been trying to get in since 1987. I do know that the reasons it has taken so long are things like their civil and human rights, conflict and the borders with the middle east. We haven't got as many obstacles to cross but I know that it would have to be agreed by all the other member states & the european parliament.

I assume there would be red tape. After all, if it will take two years to get out, how could it not take time to rejoin? However, I guarantee that Great Britain would be given preferential treatment over Turkey. I think it would be welcomed back with open arms. My biggest fear in that the EU might be no more!

Deb/AGBF

 

[Lovinggems]

Monarch, who - or which post - are you clapping??

My post was meant to go right beneath your reply to Acinom--I didn't want to quote the whole thing since space is so limited on the internet.

Oh, right! Well, I get fed up with "I art holier than thou" posturing, both on the internet and in life. I've never tried to make myself look good at others' expense and I can't understand the urge to do so. It's very mean of heart, petty, and small-minded, and it tends to be a permanent frame of mind, which I find desperately unattractive. It's depressing how many people do not extend kindness and lack of judgment to others. I think many things which I don't say, because I don't enjoy hurting others' feelings, which absolutely includes times when I think others are wrong.

This was perhaps directed at your seemingly flippant attitude towards the situation rather than about your thread topic. Heck most people will take advantage of currency fluctuations I doubt Acinom was trying to make herself look good at your expense because of this.

 

[LJsapphire]

I assume there would be red tape. After all, if it will take two years to get out, how could it not take time to rejoin? However, I guarantee that Great Britain would be given preferential treatment over Turkey. I think it would be welcomed back with open arms. My biggest fear in that the EU might be no more!

Deb/AGBF

oh yes no doubt, it would be easier for the UK than Turkey. I've seen that other parts of Europe didn't want us to go, but some parts want their own referendum. I understand your worry about the EU being no more.

 

[cmd2014]

I know we have some fans of Kiki McDonough on the forum. I pointed out a couple of weeks ago that when the EU referendum happens, it will be a favorable time for us to buy because the pound will be weak. I'm not clever enough to figure that out, by the way. I have to confess that I read it somewhere.

With this in mind, I just wanted to point out that the vote is happening, it's looking likely that Britain will leave the EU, and the pound has just fallen eight percent - according to the news, the biggest single fall in its history.

And you know what that means? It's the best night in history to pay for British jewelry in US dollars!

Go for it!

www.kiki.co.uk
www.patrickmavros.com
www.heavenlynecklaces.com
www.annoushka.co.uk

Hey my pearl-girl friend,

I just wanted to pop in to say that in the midst of anxiety about Brexit and DH's anticipating that we will take deep losses in our retirement savings (he figures we'll lose all of last year's savings on this on top of the heavy losses we have already sustained due to falling oil prices and the waining Loonie), I thought your suggestion was a small bright spot. And yes, I thought about making a small purchase to make myself feel better. So I'm sorry you have been flamed. PS is about jewelry after all.

Plus, It seems like people are talking about this as if something *unexpected* happened. The majority of people in the UK VOTED for this (and frankly, as someone outside of the U.K., I'm more than a bit angry given how many of us who DIDN'T get a vote are going to be hurt by this). I hope it's all worth it.

 

[chemgirl]

I know we have some fans of Kiki McDonough on the forum. I pointed out a couple of weeks ago that when the EU referendum happens, it will be a favorable time for us to buy because the pound will be weak. I'm not clever enough to figure that out, by the way. I have to confess that I read it somewhere.

With this in mind, I just wanted to point out that the vote is happening, it's looking likely that Britain will leave the EU, and the pound has just fallen eight percent - according to the news, the biggest single fall in its history.

And you know what that means? It's the best night in history to pay for British jewelry in US dollars!

Go for it!

www.kiki.co.uk
www.patrickmavros.com
www.heavenlynecklaces.com
www.annoushka.co.uk

Hey my pearl-girl friend,

I just wanted to pop in to say that in the midst of anxiety about Brexit and DH's anticipating that we will take deep losses in our retirement savings (he figures we'll lose all of last year's savings on this on top of the heavy losses we have already sustained due to falling oil prices and the waining Loonie), I thought your suggestion was a small bright spot. And yes, I thought about making a small purchase to make myself feel better. So I'm sorry you have been flamed. PS is about jewelry after all.

Plus, It seems like people are talking about this as if something *unexpected* happened. The majority of people in the UK VOTED for this (and frankly, as someone outside of the U.K., I'm more than a bit angry given how many of us who DIDN'T get a vote are going to be hurt by this). I hope it's all worth it.

My MIL called this morning complaining about her savings. She voted to leave. Apparently nobody said that would happen. Ok....

I'm hoping that everything recovers as much as possible once the uncertainty is worked out

 

[OoohShiny]

I know we have some fans of Kiki McDonough on the forum. I pointed out a couple of weeks ago that when the EU referendum happens, it will be a favorable time for us to buy because the pound will be weak. I'm not clever enough to figure that out, by the way. I have to confess that I read it somewhere.

With this in mind, I just wanted to point out that the vote is happening, it's looking likely that Britain will leave the EU, and the pound has just fallen eight percent - according to the news, the biggest single fall in its history.

And you know what that means? It's the best night in history to pay for British jewelry in US dollars!

Go for it!

www.kiki.co.uk
www.patrickmavros.com
www.heavenlynecklaces.com
www.annoushka.co.uk

Hey my pearl-girl friend,

I just wanted to pop in to say that in the midst of anxiety about Brexit and DH's anticipating that we will take deep losses in our retirement savings (he figures we'll lose all of last year's savings on this on top of the heavy losses we have already sustained due to falling oil prices and the waining Loonie), I thought your suggestion was a small bright spot. And yes, I thought about making a small purchase to make myself feel better. So I'm sorry you have been flamed. PS is about jewelry after all.

Plus, It seems like people are talking about this as if something *unexpected* happened. The majority of people in the UK VOTED for this (and frankly, as someone outside of the U.K., I'm more than a bit angry given how many of us who DIDN'T get a vote are going to be hurt by this). I hope it's all worth it.

Just to ask some questions...

Can you name a decision that the US has consulted globally on, to ask how the world feels about it before making the decision?

Did the US bankers bundling toxic sub-prime mortgage debts up with top-grade debts to sell on and make a quick profit (which then triggered the 2008 global financial markets crash, the collapse of previously enormous banks with a multitude of job losses and debt write-offs, a worldwide fall in house prices, and a global recession that we are still feeling the effects of and will do for a while yet) ask the rest of the world if they wanted to take such a risk?

Did the US IRS consult the rest of the world before enacting its programme of harvesting taxation from worldwide earnings of US citizens, even if the income is earnt and spent in an entirely different country to the US?

Did the US ask the rest of the world if it was ok with its programme of Extraordinary Rendition of suspects, with little or no published evidence in some cases, to hold them in isolation cells and without trial for unspecified periods of time in facilties outside of US soil and therefore outside of the laws of the US, seemingly often using torture, with the subsequent ruling that victims of such an experience have no legal right to sue the US government for torture suffered overseas?

Did the US ask the rest of the world to vote before pulling the trigger on Osama bin Laden in a country outside of the US and therefore outside of US law or jurisdiction?

Has the US ever extradited any of its citizens to other countries for legal trials, all the while extraditing citizens from all over the world to be put through the US justice system at its whim?

And to refer back to my earlier comment, would you tell the victim of a bully to shut up whining because it would inconvenience you if they made a stand?


I wouldn't mind that sort of comment so much if the US government didn't seemingly consider itself 'the policeman of the world' and above any sort of reproach for any actions it decides to take, even if no-one else likes them


Anyway, coming back to Kenny's earlier question - there is no unbiased, truthful, detailed for-and-against website that lists all the pros and cons - the campaign from both sides has been limited in scope and detail, inflammatory, and seemingly based on illiciting knee-jerk reactions. It has been very frustrating trying to educate oneself fully because neither side seems to actually have hard, evidenced facts supporting a cohesive case, so I think many people have voted on what they already knew and/or felt personally.

I think it is for this reason that the Remain campaigners will claim the vote is entirely down to the tabloid-reading lower socio-economic classes, who they will claim are suckers for being wound up by "Look! Immigrants! Run! Be Scared!!" tactics and have voted entirely on that one issue. Some will have, undoubtedly, and that is sad, but many others in the working middle classes just want to see some power return to the UK government. For example, re: Jambalaya's question, the top UK Court is trumped by the top EU court in the legislature within the EU arrangements, so in effect the UK has no choice but to bend to the will of the EU, even if it doesn't want to.

I think that was the case with the Imperial / Metric measurement system - UK shops and traders (especially open air market traders) wanted to keep imperial, they were told no, you must move to metric as it is illegal to sell in lbs and oz. I am still quite surprised that the Euro (and road distances in km) was not forced on the UK - I don't think its impossible for EU countries to exit and claim back their original currency, but I'm not sure how it would work. Presumably the markets would open at the rate it was fixed at on the day the Euro started, and then the new (old) currency would be free to rise/fall to the value ultimately determined by the markets.

 

[OoohShiny]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it because I may have missed a reference to it. But If the EU survives without England, I wonder if England will soon be voting again, this time to make a Brentrance. I mean, if it can leave, it can return, right? How long before they see that leaving was a huge mistake?

AGBF

What if the EU doesn't survive without the UK?

The UK is a net contributor to the EU, I believe, so I'm sure the money will be missed, and if a UK Leave vote inspires other countries who also feel the EU is not all it was sold to them as, or has changed from its original purpose as a common market with reduced barriers to trade movement, and they also vote leave...

There are interesting times ahead. As Kenny has noted, it is impossible to predict the future in economics. Nobody can know if leaving is a mistake or not at this time, and even then, it depends how you define 'mistake'. It is a change, yes, and change will usually/always result in something different, but will it be worse or better than being in the EU? Nobody knows, and it will depend on how you define 'better' and 'worse'.

I don't believe the UK should be berated for making a decision the majority of the population feel is in the best interests of the country, it should instead be welcomed with open arms by those who it currently trades with and who want to trade with it. This is a golden opportunity to improve things, don't put the UK down for trying something different. Hell, the rest of the world is letting the US go to the polls for the Presidency (the most important job in the world, apparently ) with Donald Trump as potentially the winner, so the US should extend the same courtesy to the rest of the world lol

Don't forget - the status quo is not automatically the best route forward. If that was the case, we would never have invented the wheel, tamed fire, discovered the table of elements, realised the earth is not flat and at the centre of the solar system... (Don't get me started on the US obsession with teaching creationism over Darwinism, though )

 

[pyramid]

delete