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Shooting at Orlando Nightclub

Matata

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monarch64|1465871723|4043741 said:
Matata|1465870858|4043737 said:
Ok. So if we can't do anything about guns, how about hate speech? Can we agree that suppression of hate speech is a good thing?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/tanya-cohen/2015/01/here-is-why-its-time-to-get-tough-on-hate-speech-in-america/

I think we need to take a look at why hate speech exists. From where does the hatred stem?
Once again, you can suppress, you can ban, you can forbid, but that doesn't mean you can stop it or even control it to a "manageable" point.

The bolded part is complex and something that would merit a lot of study. But in the meantime, suppressing it in public according to the tenets respected and practiced by other countries (and please, for the masses -- if you say that just because it works outside the US doesn't mean it will work here -- you're part of the problem). There is a lot of data showing how negative thinking impacts the brain and a lot of data showing how to change negative thinking patterns. Stopping hate speech doesn't correlate with stopping those negative thoughts but it does narrow the scope in which those thoughts reach physical expression. So we can still think and speak hate within the confines of our minds and homes or secret clubs.

And, lacking longitudinal studies showing otherwise, I will not subscribe to the notion that suppressing, banning, forbidding has no impact on a negative thing. We shouldn't ever expect total eradication of hate but that shouldn't stop us from trying. And that's what it seems we're doing -- giving up the fight -- every damn time we say "it won't work" when we haven't even tried or when we've tried and failed or achieved only a modicum of progress without exploring other options and approaches -- we've given up, the bad guys win, and we wring our hands, pray, have moments of silence, wave flags -- all shallow attempts to make ourselves feel better because it's easier than challenging the status quo.
 

kenny

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We cannot legislate thought.
We can only criminalize actions.
 

monarch64

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Matata|1465873507|4043750 said:
monarch64|1465871723|4043741 said:
Matata|1465870858|4043737 said:
Ok. So if we can't do anything about guns, how about hate speech? Can we agree that suppression of hate speech is a good thing?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/tanya-cohen/2015/01/here-is-why-its-time-to-get-tough-on-hate-speech-in-america/

I think we need to take a look at why hate speech exists. From where does the hatred stem?
Once again, you can suppress, you can ban, you can forbid, but that doesn't mean you can stop it or even control it to a "manageable" point.

The bolded part is complex and something that would merit a lot of study. But in the meantime, suppressing it in public according to the tenets respected and practiced by other countries (and please, for the masses -- if you say that just because it works outside the US doesn't mean it will work here -- you're part of the problem). There is a lot of data showing how negative thinking impacts the brain and a lot of data showing how to change negative thinking patterns. Stopping hate speech doesn't correlate with stopping those negative thoughts but it does narrow the scope in which those thoughts reach physical expression. So we can still think and speak hate within the confines of our minds and homes or secret clubs.

And, lacking longitudinal studies showing otherwise, I will not subscribe to the notion that suppressing, banning, forbidding has no impact on a negative thing. We shouldn't ever expect total eradication of hate but that shouldn't stop us from trying. And that's what it seems we're doing -- giving up the fight -- every damn time we say "it won't work" when we haven't even tried or when we've tried and failed or achieved only a modicum of progress without exploring other options and approaches -- we've given up, the bad guys win, and we wring our hands, pray, have moments of silence, wave flags -- all shallow attempts to make ourselves feel better because it's easier than challenging the status quo.

I believe that suppressing any form of speech halts discussion, period, though. There has been a man speaking publicly here on our town square/courthouse lawn using hate speech, and he does the same at college campuses and other public places around the state and country, I believe. But the fact that he is doing it in public, even though yes, he is inciting some anger, is more OK in my book than him doing it in a basement somewhere with his cronies. Kenny says sunshine is the best disinfectant. I'd rather hatemongerers were out in the open, where I can see them and talk back, like this guy's protestors did.

As far as the "it won't work" argument, I understand your point and I hear you. But when I think about book banning, women and people of color not having the right to vote, prohibition, the war on drugs, and every other time people's civil liberties have been taken away, the thought of yet another ban or law makes me very uneasy. I'm not saying I am totally opposed to it; I'm just saying it makes me really freaking uncomfortable. Like, the elected officials with the money don't trust me to do this human thing the right way. I think I might have a little "give me liberty or give me death" in me, honestly, Matata. :???: I don't like guns, I don't want a gun, but I don't want anyone telling me I can't own one. I don't like abortion, I don't want an abortion, but I don't want anyone telling me I can't have one. I will say that I am not opposed to reinstating the federal ban on assault rifles, though. That shit is bananas. The dude from Indiana had THREE. Three! :shock:
 

Gypsy

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Our freedom of speech is not absolute.

In the past we've restricted certain types of speech, it's true. Inciting imminent lawless action, fighting words, true threats and obscenity and child pornography are examples of unprotected speech.

But the Supreme Court tries very hard not to restrict content as a general rule. And content based restrictions are subjected to the highest level of scrutiny.

The issue for me is that is no bright line on hate speech, unfortunately. A lot of what people say has to do with context.

Think of Trump. It's not his actual words that are hateful.

What was the worst thing he called that Judge? A Mexican. You read the transcript and you think... in bad taste maybe, and inaccurate, but not HATEFUL. Why, because he didn't use any particular words that were hateful. But what he said was hateful none the less. At least to MANY of us.

But not to everyone. Many people (millions of them who are voting for him) would say that he said nothing but the truth.

It's the innuendo and the context of his remarks that makes them hateful.

That's why hate speech is a hard thing to regulate. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. But Monnie has a point. Sometimes the light of day is the best cure.

It's not an easy issue, at least for me. I can see both sides.
 

Matata

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The only thing I'm sure of is when we say we can't nothing happens. And when we try something happens.
 

Gypsy

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Matata|1465877712|4043762 said:
The only thing I'm sure of is when we say we can't nothing happens. And when we try something happens.


Yes, but for me the issue isn't can or can't. It's should.

I am a liberal. Proud of it. But even I don't agree that regulation is always the answer. And for speech content it's very complicated and I'm not sure we SHOULD regulate it.
 

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AGBF

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kenny|1465872796|4043748 said:
Perhaps the killer was gay and could not overcome the homophobia.
Being hated can take a toll.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-orlando-nightclub-omar-mateen-profile-20160613-story.html

On page 1 of this thread I addressed the same issue. My conclusion was a bit different, however. I believe that he internalized the homophobia of our society, as most people do. Finding it consciously loathsome (which is not the same as being hated by others), he had a visceral hatred for that which aroused him and wanted to eradicate it.

Here is what I said on Page 1. I was responding to Dancing Fire's call for more profiling of ethnic groups by saying that perhaps the FBI needed to profile homophobes instead.

AGBF|1465767503|4043336 said:
If what the gunman did was set off by seeing two men kiss, then besides whatever kind of sociopath he was, he was also a latent homosexual. Seeing two men kiss was disturbing to him because it aroused him. The worst homophobes are men who fear their own homosexual tendencies. And, according to Freud, all humans have homosexual tendencies. That does not make all humans homosexuals in our actions.

If one is going to do profiling in an attempt to avert violence against homosexuals, he had better learn to watch out for homophobes.
 

arkieb1

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Why do you have to ban all guns to have better gun control? As soon as people talk about better gun control laws someone steps in and says oh that will never work because you can't take away our guns because they are part of our civil rights. Decent people can have guns it's about ensuring people who are NOT decent law abiding citizens don't have them regardless of if they are obtained legally or illegally.

No ordinary person should be walking around with an automatic or semi automatic weapon so therefore unless you have a specific need for one and a specific purpose they should not be available for the average citizen to gain access to. So reform is about the types of guns that are allowed and what they are used for and who happens to be using them, not banning all guns.

People argue ahhh but we need better high powered automatic guns in case we have to over throw a corrupt military or government or police force.... We aren't in the 1800s or even early 1900s when the notion of restoring civil liberties could be achieved with men and muskets. Your military could blow a large number of people to shreds, so could your police force, if the Govt was conspiring to wipe out certain sectors of the population they have labs full of ebola like viruses half of us have never heard of and all the guns in the world aren't going to protect any of us from that.

If a political leader, or party did something like force the NRA to actually spend a fraction of the money they devote to lobbying, campaign contributions and buying off politicians and channel that into training more police and cracking down on illegal weapons and tightening the national registers of people who buy guns then that would be a great start. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could make it mandatory for every dollar they spend for those purposes (ie brainwashing everyone into believing society would fall apart without guns, and keeping enough political members elected to block any legislation they don't like), force them to match that dollar for dollar in work programs, policing and initiatives that have positive outcomes. These are some of the 2013 and 2014 figures of what they spent, the 2015 and 2016 ones I believe are much higher.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=d000000082

Having an attitude that well we are never going to fix the problem is not going to make the problem go away. I actually think even many pro gun people on here agree there is a problem and they might be willing to see the other side but they just don't see any viable solutions. I agree there needs to be huge reform in unemployment and better economic stability and growth to help fix the underlying issues, but saying gun's don't kill people, people kill people, is well, frustrating. People with big automatic guns can kill more people in a shorter period of time than people with small guns. The only way to fix the issues is better screening of who can obtain weapons, restriction of certain types of weapons, and far more money spent on policing and making illegal guns as difficult as possible to obtain. Aim to clean up the streets. When people stop living in fear they no longer need guns to protect themselves.

The NRA and pro gun people like to instil fear, the bad guys have everyone scared too, so it's time to start questioning why do they all have so much power and what can each and every individual do to change that. What would a better version of America look like, who can you write letters to, who can you lobby, what programs can you contribute to that may make a small change. Surely change is better than nothing at all because the problem has gotten so bad it's too difficult for anyone to fix. If something isn't done now then it's going to be getting a lot lot worse before it has any remote possibility of getting better. If the hard questions are not asked now and if everyone continues to put it into the too hard basket what point do you need to get to before enough is really enough...

Does it matter if the gunman was gay, if he suppressed anger and hatred towards gay men and women, or if he was or wasn't a terrorist, or if he hated a particular demographic, or if he was mentally unbalanced (I love that argument too, we should all keep our guns because that was just one mad guy better gun laws won't stop the mad guy....) the main lesson that SHOULD be asked is why the hell did he have access to a gun like that in the first place, and how do you stop that from occurring again.
 

ame

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kenny|1465872701|4043747 said:
Deb said that from the start (and I said that the moment I heard about it), and clearly we were both on to something. He apparently had a profile on Grindr, and was a regular at this club (so did he reside nearby, or did he drive two hours each way to go to a gay bar? Because the latter is just stupid.)

Anyway...

I am over here slow clapping so hard for Jim Himes. Biggest, brass-est balls ever, and if I could re-elect him I would.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jim-himes-orlando_us_575e1e3de4b00f97fba8b5f3

74d02c7758b6e47ebc9412b9d4fecdce.jpg
 

monarch64

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ksinger|1465897732|4043798 said:
Still one of the best books I've read in the last 5 years or so.

https://www.amazon.com/Angry-White-Men-American-Masculinity/dp/1568585136

Thank you for posting this. It's on my list of things to reserve.

Arkie, if you and others cannot see that guns are the symptom of a much larger problem in society, then I don't know what to say. Until we all admit that there is a deep-seated problem with humans and hatred, the Timothy McVeighs of the world are going to continue with bombings, suicide missions, stabbings, throwing people off buildings, etc. I appreciate and respect your position and opinions, and the amount of time and research you've put into the gun control issue is commendable, but you're still only addressing part of the problem.
 

AGBF

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Matata|1465919648|4043856 said:

I just watched this broadcast by Samantha Bee (of whom I had never heard before). Thank you so much for posting this, Matata. if it were not for the video clips posted here on Hangout and the lists of books posted by Pricescope members my life would be impoverished! I believe it was here that I learned of Trevor Noah, too.

I wish that this broadcast could be played before a full assembly of Congress (both houses).

Deb/AGBF
 

AGBF

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Matata|1465919648|4043856 said:

Hysterical, Matata. If you like black humor. Which is the only kind of humor one can find in the discussion of matters such as the mental health system of Florida. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined a group training program to get mentally incompetent people ready to stand trial! And the idea that the appropriate response to a stroke was an arrest had me laughing out loud. Too bad it was all true!

Thank you again, my dear! :read:

Deb :wavey:
 

redwood66

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Matata|1465920194|4043857 said:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20151008/NEWS02/151009827/the-problem-with-using-chicago-to-make-the-case-against-gun-control

Well this seems to be a huge gang issue that needs to be handled rather than blame the surrounding areas. But if I were a cop in Chicago I would be afraid of showing up on Youtube taking down a "poor misunderstood youth" to cuff him for the murder he just committed in a drive-by. Sure the writer mentioned gangs but its the access to weapons from the surrounding area and networking by criminals to get those weapons that is the problem? Gangs are a festering boil that can destroy a city. Unless the powers that be have the strength to protect the law abiding citizens and the judicial system has the strength to sentence crimes committed with guns appropriately, nothing will change. These people (for the most part) don't want jobs, it is far easier to sell drugs, run prostitution and illegal gambling than make an honest buck.

This comment in the article is false, "Twenty-four percent of the total pool of guns came from Indiana, which is "not regulated at all," he said." Guns are regulated federally in the entire US. Indiana likely follows only those restrictions rather than the onerous ones that Chicago has.

Regarding this horribly shooting it is beyond my understanding how a person who was investigated by the FBI for 10 months could buy a gun of any kind. This will hopefully bring about some changes to investigations, lists, etc. and how they are handled. That anyone can commit such atrocities is just disgusting and beyond my comprehension as a human being.
 

ame

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AGBF|1465921413|4043866 said:
Matata|1465919648|4043856 said:

I just watched this broadcast by Samantha Bee (of whom I had never heard before). Thank you so much for posting this, Matata. if it were not for the video clips posted here on Hangout and the lists of books posted by Pricescope members my life would be impoverished! I believe it was here that I learned of Trevor Noah, too.

I wish that this broadcast could be played before a full assembly of Congress (both houses).

Deb/AGBF
SHE IS AMAZING. She really is. I love her. Between her and John Oliver, you can tell that Jon Stewart really picked the winners.

FYI--Amarillo Police just took down an active shooter inside a Walmart there. HOW MANY MORE WILL IT TAKE, CONGRESS?
 

arkieb1

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monarch64|1465916778|4043849 said:
ksinger|1465897732|4043798 said:
Still one of the best books I've read in the last 5 years or so.

https://www.amazon.com/Angry-White-Men-American-Masculinity/dp/1568585136

Thank you for posting this. It's on my list of things to reserve.

Arkie, if you and others cannot see that guns are the symptom of a much larger problem in society, then I don't know what to say. Until we all admit that there is a deep-seated problem with humans and hatred, the Timothy McVeighs of the world are going to continue with bombings, suicide missions, stabbings, throwing people off buildings, etc. I appreciate and respect your position and opinions, and the amount of time and research you've put into the gun control issue is commendable, but you're still only addressing part of the problem.

I get "guns are a symptom of a much larger problem in society" and sure humans have been staging war on each other for centuries, but why should that give everyone the right to walk around with automatic and semi automatic weapons? Most of you clearly don't want to live in a war zone yet you are more outraged that it's some type of violation of your civil liberties to properly monitor and police who has what types of guns, than you are that it's O.K for the average person to walk around unchecked with them.

Yep there are a heap of other problems that need to be fixed hand in hand with gun control - crime, poverty, immigration and better policing just to name a few, but this continued pattern of blaming humanity, blaming terrorist, blaming "the other" isn't stepping up and demanding action. Maybe it's a cultural thing and Americans generally have less power as individual citizens, your country is supposed to be the be all and end all as a democracy but maybe it's not. And what I mean by that is if there is a problem here, I go down and see my local politician or I lobby both my state and federal representatives, I post stuff on social media, I get enough people I know together and complain about something and here in my country, if enough people complain loudly enough, generally politicians will do something about it. Big business and the wealthy control most Western societies but every member within most democratic nations should be able to have their voice heard. Perhaps on an individual level you really are as powerless as you seem to suggest, and if so I honestly pity you.

You are supposed to be one of the most advanced nations in the world, blaming human kind for your situation isn't solving anything, once again it's saying we've created this mess but because of our natures it's too hard to fix, it's too late to fix it. It's also disregarding everyone throughout history that has fought for peace, for human rights, and those who have stepped up and been at the forefront of change. So what are the alternatives? You do nothing and you have more poverty, more unemployment, and more potential terrorists and unbalanced people walking around with some seriously high powered guns. I wonder how much worse the average citizen is going to allow it to get before everyone says we really need structured reform here on every level and yes we have to suck it up and actually deal with the pain of the implementation of it, without screaming outrage about giving the poor more money, giving the poor and unemployed better access to education, health and other basic resources, without screaming about taking away some of your guns, without fearing the police are out to get everyone, without the middle class and big business screaming about being taxed more to help pay for these things.

Terrorists and the small minority of people on a suicide mission in your country didn't create these problems and are not the deep seated underlying heart of why the country is failing at being able to feed, house, care for and directly protect it's own citizens. Here are some statistics;

So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.
Source: Politifact.


Gun violence and terrorism: The US spends more than a trillion dollars per year defending itself against terrorism, which kills a tiny fraction of the number of people killed by ordinary gun crime.
According to figures from the US Department of Justice and the Council on Foreign Affairs, 11,385 people died on average annually in firearm incidents in the US between 2001 and 2011.

In the same period, an average of 517 people were killed annually in terror-related incidents. Removing 2001, when 9/11 occurred, from the calculation produces an annual average of just 31.

Clearly the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people" should be rewritten to "guns don't kill people but people who live in a society with more guns are more likely to die as a direct result of having them"
 

monarch64

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arkieb1|1465945245|4044075 said:
monarch64|1465916778|4043849 said:
ksinger|1465897732|4043798 said:
Still one of the best books I've read in the last 5 years or so.

https://www.amazon.com/Angry-White-Men-American-Masculinity/dp/1568585136

Thank you for posting this. It's on my list of things to reserve.

Arkie, if you and others cannot see that guns are the symptom of a much larger problem in society, then I don't know what to say. Until we all admit that there is a deep-seated problem with humans and hatred, the Timothy McVeighs of the world are going to continue with bombings, suicide missions, stabbings, throwing people off buildings, etc. I appreciate and respect your position and opinions, and the amount of time and research you've put into the gun control issue is commendable, but you're still only addressing part of the problem.

I get "guns are a symptom of a much larger problem in society" and sure humans have been staging war on each other for centuries, but why should that give everyone the right to walk around with automatic and semi automatic weapons? Most of you clearly don't want to live in a war zone yet you are more outraged that it's some type of violation of your civil liberties to properly monitor and police who has what types of guns, than you are that it's O.K for the average person to walk around unchecked with them.

Yep there are a heap of other problems that need to be fixed hand in hand with gun control - crime, poverty, immigration and better policing just to name a few, but this continued pattern of blaming humanity, blaming terrorist, blaming "the other" isn't stepping up and demanding action. Maybe it's a cultural thing and Americans generally have less power as individual citizens, your country is supposed to be the be all and end all as a democracy but maybe it's not. And what I mean by that is if there is a problem here, I go down and see my local politician or I lobby both my state and federal representatives, I post stuff on social media, I get enough people I know together and complain about something and here in my country, if enough people complain loudly enough, generally politicians will do something about it. Big business and the wealthy control most Western societies but every member within most democratic nations should be able to have their voice heard. Perhaps on an individual level you really are as powerless as you seem to suggest, and if so I honestly pity you.

You are supposed to be one of the most advanced nations in the world, blaming human kind for your situation isn't solving anything, once again it's saying we've created this mess but because of our natures it's too hard to fix, it's too late to fix it. It's also disregarding everyone throughout history that has fought for peace, for human rights, and those who have stepped up and been at the forefront of change. So what are the alternatives? You do nothing and you have more poverty, more unemployment, and more potential terrorists and unbalanced people walking around with some seriously high powered guns. I wonder how much worse the average citizen is going to allow it to get before everyone says we really need structured reform here on every level and yes we have to suck it up and actually deal with the pain of the implementation of it, without screaming outrage about giving the poor more money, giving the poor and unemployed better access to education, health and other basic resources, without screaming about taking away some of your guns, without fearing the police are out to get everyone, without the middle class and big business screaming about being taxed more to help pay for these things.

Terrorists and the small minority of people on a suicide mission in your country didn't create these problems and are not the deep seated underlying heart of why the country is failing at being able to feed, house, care for and directly protect it's own citizens.

Wow. It would be nice if I could HEAR you through your passion, Arkie. I have a little trouble with some of the negativity in your approach, I must admit.

I will address two things:

1. With regard to local, state, and federal politics, you are grossly mistaken if you believe I am a complacent individual. My husband I and I are heavily involved in local politics. He has run for local office unsuccessfully in 2012, run campaigns for several at the state level, and my daughter met her 1st Congressman when she was just shy of 2 months old. We attend city council meetings on a regular basis. A good friend of ours is the regional director of a 3rd party Presidential candidate. So please do not think for one second that I think I am powerless on an individual basis. You are wrong.

2. It absolutely is a human issue. The root of the matters is the indoctrination of hateful thoughts about what is right or wrong in the eyes of many religious leaders. We are not allowed to discuss religion on PS, though; therefore I try not to bring that up in discussion and remain vague so that I do not violate PS policy. Unfortunately that has led to some confusion about my points. I'll have to let that part of my theory go here on PS, but absolutely I discuss it with people in real life, and I have had some very good and productive discussions with those who agree with me as well as those who disagree with me. Talking about things in public, with each other, not on social media (which does nothing but perpetuate the negativity and the ridiculous propaganda--aka Trump's strategy of "at least I'm not being ignored"), but in person, as HUMANS, is what we need to be doing. Not expecting our legislatures to vote the way we want them to, but starting with each other in our communities. So you see, you and I are maybe not on the same exact page, but we are in the same book, or at least the same series. Omar Mateen for example, for all intents and purposes that I can cull from news sources, was gay. His preference for men was quelched by his father/religion/upbringing. He was not tolerated. he couldn't even talk about it. He did everything in his power to convince his family that he was not gay. That he was gay wasn't the problem. That he was not accepted and loved just the way he was is the problem. Unfortunately he made a terrible decision and it culminated in 49 people dying, 53 more injured, and countless others affected by his actions, and ultimately the beliefs and hatred stemming from what? Religious beliefs. So yes, until society gets that through their thick heads, we are going to continue to have massacres. Until we teach love instead of hate and until we stop tolerating abuse and start talking about it, we are going to have bombings and terrorist attacks.

Lastly, I don't know many who are fighting to keep assault weapons in the hands of anyone. Trump himself has at least called for a reinvestigation of the issue. I do NOT SUPPORT TRUMP. And i will say something else: this country is only a couple hundred years old. Obviously we need more time to figure things out. I never said I disagreed with you on the weapons issue. I said that it is a symptom of a greater problem and bandaiding that symptom is not going to solve the issue for once and for all. So you can yell at me all you want--I tried to approach you with respect and consideration--but banning guns simply does not equal no more violence. It just doesn't. That's not me sticking my head in the sand and saying "well we failed at this before, didn't work, so **** it." That's me saying, "what else can we do to make sure it works this time?" Now, I raise a glass of whatever you enjoy drinking and say to you as my fellow human: I like you. I respect you. And I'd like for us ALL, as humans, to work together on all facets of the issue. Thanks for reading.

ETA: sorry, one more thing: America is a republic, or representative democracy, not a direct democracy. I think a lot of us, world-wide are confused about this. http://www.ushistory.org/gov/1c.asp
 

arkieb1

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It's 10.00am here, I'd be a bit off my perch if I was into the wine at this time of day :lol:

Monarch, I am not accusing you or yelling at you about anything. The comments about feeling powerless politically is something that I detect with a number of posts from Americans, I was specifically asking if that was the problem, but clearly reading your comments it isn't, which is a good thing IMHO. I seem to get this underlying sense that many people want to do something but are exasperated that nothing gets done.

I agree with you, for a country that touts religious freedom there are areas where you suck at it, tolerance being one of them. And I agree there needs to be more love, more tolerance and less hate, but I think the point I was making badly was that you can't blame bombings and terrorist attacks for all mass shootings in the US or for the amount of gun related crimes and murders.

I don't think banning guns = no more violence and I am not even naive enough to assume you could ban all guns (never going to happen in the US). But I do think having less guns, having less powerful guns and cleaning up the amount of illegal guns and policing who has them and what they are and are not allowed to do with them will equate to less gun related deaths, less massacres and in the cases where you do have massacres, less people dying when they do occur.

There have been people particularly from other countries that appear here and do argue you should ban all guns. I am not one of them, I think you need reform, more money spent on things like policing and fixing your economy and more people questioning why the NRA and other groups like them have so much power and what you can do to change this.
 

monarch64

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Arkie, thanks for your very thoughtful response. I forget where you live but I didn't realize we were at opposite ends of the day! Certainly no wine for you this early. We can have a toast in spirit, though, right?

I really do enjoy your posts and am sorry we don't agree even more, but I'm glad we had this conversation. Hearing your thoughts on the U.S. is a bit like hearing an outsider's objective opinion on a relationship you're in; when you're in it, it's harder for you to see the facts, and when an outsider points out some things it's a little painful. But sugarcoating things doesn't get the message across just as outrage doesn't, so I understand your adamance, which I obviously mistook for anger. (Maybe it is mostly anger, hard to tell online, of course.) Anyway, I think we have a lot to learn from the rest of the world. You know youngsters, though, they like to learn things for themselves, and learn it the hard way. :bigsmile: I don't mean to make light of the Orlando shootings, I am just trying to make a point about our discussion here.

There was a vigil held in my town in honor of the victims tonight. I debated going all day. Every single time I thought about it, which was frequently, I got tears in my eyes and knew I would not be able to hold it together. I am not good with crowds, and I felt like I would be even more emotional being there than I am at home reading about everything. My friend of whom I spoke, and to whom I spoke while this was happening early Sunday morning (he and his partner were my next door neighbors and moved to Orlando last summer) texted me this morning: "I just can't shake our conversation, and how everything we talked about that A's generation would finally say enough is enough with judgement and hatred and race, sexual orientation, religion...they all came together and were occuring as we were speaking. i want to amend that statement...I hope her generation is the first to NOT have to experience these issues because MY generation has finally had enough. I truly hope her world can be better for her. Love you and S and A." (A is our daughter, whom they both doted on, and she loved "her boys.") I have been an ally since kindergarten, when I met one of my best friends, who is gay. Several from my very small town have come out over he years, during high school and beyond, and I am fortunate enough to have remained friends with them and made a lot of others from the LGBTQ+ community. This all hits close to home for me. I've partied with them, I've gone on Spring Break with them, stayed with them, house-sat for them, and loved/have been loved by them. Our conversations haven't revolved around gun control. They've revolved around tolerance. So that is also where I am coming from. I don't want this discussion to devolve to a place of arguing agendas, and I realize I don't control where the discussion goes and that's cool, but this particular terrible awful thing was in part a hate crime against a particular community and I hope that continues to stay to the forefront of the discussion.

Ok, apparently I had a lot to say and I am sorry for the wall of text. *insert hug emotie here* Thanks for listening.
 

arkieb1

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Monarch - I agree with you on most of your thoughts, especially your sadness of the lack of tolerance in society. I think I alluded back on page one that, cynically, because the victims were gay and because the gunman could have been an Islamic terrorist my fear was this would divert attention away from the fact this person should never have had access to a gun in the first place.

In saying that I don't feel any less sadness for the LGBT community whom I support too. My frustration stems from the fact that same day across America 218 people were killed and injured by guns only a few days before not that far away The Voice Contestant Christiana Grimmie who was a beautiful talented young woman was senselessly murdered by a stalker.

I agree that if terrorists don't have access to guns they can make home made bombs and blow people up, however it's somewhat disingenuous to argue that if terrorist don't have access to guns that they will kill you by other means. It's also disingenuous to argue if everyone the whole society has guns that is going to stop them.

There have been 76 days so far this year that qualified to be considered days with mass shootings in 2016 in the US (ie 4 or more people were directly killed at the same place from guns) and 88 days without mass shootings. For a country that isn't at war that is appalling. They aren't all terrorists (most are not), they may or may not be mentally ill, they may or may not have religious or political agendas.

None of them should have had easy access both legally or illegally to guns period. Until that is fixed all the education in the world won't help, I do agree that perhaps if you were a more tolerant society those numbers might go down, but what I as the outsider am arguing is that if you have both more tolerance to diversity and less guns then surely those numbers would go down. If you have less guns, tighter gun control, better policing, less poverty and as a result less crime from that, and no change in tolerance those statistics should go down, one isn't necessarily more important than the other, it's about challenging why as a nation your collective mindset allows both to remain unchanged.
 

monarch64

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Arkie,I can't disagree with anything in your last post. We have a lot of changes to make and a lot of work to do as a multi-cultured society. You and I, and many here, are people who understand the importance of thinking critically to bring about change, and that is awesome. Unfortunately, I know all too well that there is a significant amount of others in the U.S. who either don't know what critical thinking is, or who don't even care to find out, let alone practice it. And that is precisely why Trump has gotten as far as he has in this presidential campaign--his strategy is (I say this begrudgingly) brilliant. His campaign would have ended long ago had he not continued to exacerbate issues by using bigoted, racist speech and appealing to the set of folks who don't care about anything aside from the very simple "pleasures" in life--their big-ass American-made vehicles (zero regard to environmental sustainability), their right to collect and shoot guns (nothing to do with responsible gun ownership, pure recreation and because-I-can mentality), their need to tell others what to do with their bodies (not even gonna touch that one), and basically any other sort of "freedom" which makes them feel superior to others and gives them the sense that they are really doin' it right. They do not care about any other group which they do not consider their own, or likely from which they feel excluded. And for some reason that segment of the population are the ones who are exalted, to an extent, in popular media. It's super effed-up. It's the Great White American Dream, and damn it they are not going to let go of it without a fight. Meanwhile, those who can't figure out how to rise up and make money and stay off drugs and stay non-violent and stay not-having-4-kids-by-different-fathers are the ones who continue to be beaten down and oppressed. We have a bunch of neanderthals to whom politicians are pandering because they have a vote and some money starting in their local and state legislature, and going on up to higher levels of government. Those are your ******* gun owners. I went to school with them, I've worked with and for them, so I'm not talking out of my anus here.

So I get it. I am just asking how the hell do we change the mindset of those who steadfastly refuse to change? I don't have any experience in social work, but many do and they are focusing their efforts on the beaten-down class. Perhaps instead we need to reposition our social efforts into the bullies of the country and yeah, take away their toys aka assault weapons since they can't learn to play nice.

I think I just typed a lot of words that may or may not make sense, and I probably didn't finish a few important thoughts/concepts, but I hope you get the jist of what I'm trying to say.

Also, sorry we are monopolizing this thread, everyone!
 

arkieb1

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Apologies to AGBF and everyone else for monopolising this thread. I think in all my past posts I do nothing but reiterate your contempt for Trump, Monarch, but I can also see why people that feel such disenchantment with the system are supporting him. They are clearly unable to envisage what a term in office with him in control will look like, let alone comprehend that someone that creates greater division within your country is not going to be the holy grail they all seem to be hoping for.

This is a great article on gun violence;

ttp://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

You, Packrat and others have suggested that the problem is the debate goes around in circles, how do you change, do I have the answers and I think the thing is you yourselves know what the problems are and have the answers, there are indeed enough critically thinking socially aware individuals in your country to have these answers, so yes the pathway now involves political and social reform. It's about as many people as possible asking the hard questions and demanding not only answers but that the reform that is needed occurs. Even if it's slow baby steps surely that is better than no steps at all.

Each time a large scale gun massacre occurs, hopefully, this is slowly changing the mindsets of people, maybe not everyone but enough that it will eventually force change to occur. And if you can't change the mindsets of anyone who steadfastly refuses to change, like the most vocal leaders of the NRA and their followers then ask what can you do to work with them to make incrementally small steps in a better direction than what you are going in now. The greater good of all is surely far more important than the vested interested of the bloody minded few that for whatever reasons do not want change to occur.
 
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