Shooting at Orlando Nightclub

monarch64 · Jun 13, 2016

AGBF|1465788067|4043456 said:
monarch64|1465767554|4043339 said:

Dancing Fire|1465766834|4043329 said:

IMO, we need more profiling on certain ethnic groups. Unlike the left who will always blame guns for these horrible killings.

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Who? Angry young men? Maybe what we need to do is put males on testosterone blockers until they can prove themselves non-violent, non-rapist, and able to function in society without harming others. Problem solved.

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Monnie, you have been saying some pretty wise things about men in several threads recently. Although this was said in jest, the reality is that blocking males from entering the United States would be more efficacious in stopping terrorism that blocking Muslims would be. Because it is men who carry out all the shootings. The only problem is that if we truly wanted to root out terrorism we would have to deport all our home-grown males when they got to be a certain age, too. (Just to be certain we got all the ones who would be the shooters.) I know I would miss a lot of the little boys in my life, and a lot of them who grew up to be the fathers of other little boys in my life. I wish there were some other way to deal with terrorism.

Deb

I wish I (or someone! anyone!) had the answers. I love humans in general, including men, but wow they tend to really muck things up. We can sit here and point fingers and blame and blame and blame, but the reality is that humans have been killing and making war on each other for any number of reasons for a very long time, before "America" was ever sodomized by Christopher Columbus. Humans are both blessed and cursed with emotions and egos, and while we consider ourselves to be more intelligent than other animals because of those things, those things will be our eventual downfall.

That men have taken and been given carte blanche throughout history to pillage, murder, and rape in the name of religion and to protect their possessions (including other humans) is why our species won't survive forever. This isn't an exclusively American problem, it isn't a gun problem (though that symptom is a horrible, festering problem), it's a hate problem and I do not have high hopes that what we have bred into people for thousands of years can be so quickly eradicated or baby-stepped out of existence.

After yesterday's all-day emotional upheaval, I feel weary and hopeless about the state of the world today.

I'm convinced we only get ~100 years on this planet because we don't deserve more time to eff things up any further! Too bad the flip side is that you only get ~100 to clean up the previous tenants' messes.

iLander · Jun 13, 2016

The secret truth of strict gun control is not the fear that only criminals will have guns: it's the fear that only the military/police will have guns. This is why assault rifles, automatic guns, etc., are available to average citizens. Every NRA member believes that one day, society will break down, and they will have to protect their family against "the government". A Waco-type standoff looms large in their collective subconscious.

In reality, history does bear them out: many countries' governments are overthrown by the military or armed rebels*. The citizens do not generally have guns, and presumably, if they did, chaos would not ensue.

HOWEVER, none of that is an excuse for not having extensive background checks. All government branches should have a cross-referenced, joint database. My theory on why they don't; because it involves effort on the part of government workers. Not only an NRA plot (well, that's part of it), just the simple fact that people on salary don't get paid more if they do more work. So every day is like the DMV, with as little work done as possible.

As for using people with guns to protect people without guns, there was an Orlando police officer there. He shot at the gunman. Didn't work, so dump that theory. The NRA would have us look like Brazil, with rich people lounging by the pool as men with submachine guns walk around the pool deck.

It's time for enforcement, it's time for a database, it's time for fingerprint verification if you want a gun. It'll help a little.

*Since these countries do not have democracy, insurrection is really the only way of changing the government, so no one should be surprised.

kenny · Jun 13, 2016

This is a very compelling interview of the killer's ex-wife.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-massacre-omar-mateens-ex-wife-says-he-beat-her-and-held-her-hostage

partgypsy · Jun 13, 2016

No words. Even though he was investigated by the FBI and a domestic abuser supposedly, still had no problem buying these weapons 2 weeks before the event??? Our gun control is not working.

Matata · Jun 13, 2016

part gypsy|1465831743|4043559 said:
No words. Even though he was investigated by the FBI and a domestic abuser supposedly, still had no problem buying these weapons 2 weeks before the event??? Our gun control is not working.

True. And we have Congress and the NRA and good citizen crybabies to thank for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg

AGBF · Jun 13, 2016

kenny|1465830804|4043558 said:
This is a very compelling interview of the killer's ex-wife.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-massacre-omar-mateens-ex-wife-says-he-beat-her-and-held-her-hostage

I didn't really want to listen to it, kenny. It seemed so sensational; but I am glad I did. Sitora Yusufiy seems like an unbelievably lovely woman, so well-spoken and balanced. It seems incredible that her life could have been entwined with this nut's life. But, as she said, Mateen was extremely unbalanced. The miracle (if one can use such a word in a situation that trapped this poor woman in a nightmare) was that Omar Mateen ever held himself together for long enough to convince her that he was marriage material at all!

AdaBeta27 · Jun 13, 2016

arkieb1|1465785401|4043442 said:
That's because there are a number of racist white extremists with power in politically powerful groups like the NRA. And lets face it, it's easier to blame Muslims, Mexicans and anyone else they perceive as "the other" than admit your society is turning to rubbish because you won't adopt tougher gun control laws and spend money in law enforcement to get the number of illegal guns on the streets reduced. Your own citizens are so sick of what your society is turning into they are going to potentially put a racist sexist moron into office that will create an even more divisive society. That was my point above, it's going to be a bucketload easier to blame everything on Muslim extremists or indeed Muslims in general than take a long hard look at the real underlying problems and fix them.

I think the "society turning to rubbish" is more due to the MASSIVE loss of jobs that got sent overseas, loss of income, cuts in wages, cut in benefits, shift away from permanent fulltime employees to to transient part-time no-security jobs, resulting in a lower socioeconomic society that's become top-heavy in riff-raff and unemployable no-skills dirtbag people. That's my opinion, based on what I see of small-town America. People become like a dog with a bone when their only way to get ahead or even make enough money to live on has become take something from someone else. But you can go right on believing that lack of gun control and a few isolated massacres of under 100 people are what's turning people's lives to sh!t.

Additionally, I concur with what DF said about profiling. There undeniably are racial, gender, ethnic, and other demographic categories that are massacring large numbers people disproportionately, looking at the data. To put this alleged gun problem into perspective, the USA had 318.9 million people in 2014. Only 50 or 100 individuals might die or were injured as a result of this latest massacre. I have no way to even begin to estimate how many other people NATIONWIDE immediately rushed to their local Wal-Mart(s) to stock up on ammo after the massacre in Orlando, and yet there were no additional gun massacres on Sunday. So far, there haven't been any more today, either. Let's have another cup of coffee and another piece of pie.

kenny · Jun 13, 2016

Obama just announce there is no evidence that so-called "Islamic State" directed the attack.

I LOVE this about Obama, honesty over expediency!

Compare this to Bush/Cheney who lied about Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction so they could make their buddies rich by starting a bogus war.
It was a war that has destabilized the region, created a power vacuum that has resulted in the creation of ISIS.
The Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done massive harm to the image of the United States around the world.

Our so-called war on terrorism CREATES terrorism.
But the old white boys get rich and their money runs congress so that's all that matters.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36521761

Dancing Fire · Jun 13, 2016

kenny|1465837472|4043580 said:
Obama just announce there is no evidence that so-called "Islamic State" directed the attack.

I LOVE this about Obama, honesty over expediency!

Compare this to Bush/Cheney who lied about Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction so they could make their buddies rich by starting a bogus war.
It was a war that has destabilized the region, created a power vacuum that has resulted in the creation of ISIS.

That is the one subject we both can agree on, but as for Prez Obama he is still living in a fantasy world about Islamic terrorism. We may not be at war with them but they are at war with us.

ame · Jun 13, 2016

arkieb1|1465785401|4043442 said:
Gypsy|1465782556|4043429 said:

If you are going to increase scrutiny on racial groups that perpete hate crimes: then you need to start with Christian white men. Not Muslims. That's reality.

But by all means let's use this tragedy to fuel more hate for this decade's personal demon; the Muslim.

Let's ignore the fact that it's s not Muslims that we have to fear here... it's people like this: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/georgia_gop_senator_quotes_biblical_scripture_calling_for_the_death_of_president_obama/

A public official publicly praying for the death of a sitting president. Oh wait! He's a white Christian man! I'm sure he's just misunderstood!

Of course if the shooter had been a Christian we wouldn't be having a very politely bigoted conversation about racial profiling. We'd be taking about mental health.

If it's a Christian -- he's clearly crazy and his religion has nothing to do with it.
But if it's a Muslim -- let's a accept the 'real need' for racial profiling of all Muslims because of a lone lunatic.

Right. No bigotry there at all. Just "reality."

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That's because there are a number of racist white extremists with power in politically powerful groups like the NRA. And lets face it, it's easier to blame Muslims, Mexicans and anyone else they perceive as "the other" than admit your society is turning to rubbish because you won't adopt tougher gun control laws and spend money in law enforcement to get the number of illegal guns on the streets reduced. Your own citizens are so sick of what your society is turning into they are going to potentially put a racist sexist moron into office that will create an even more divisive society. That was my point above, it's going to be a bucketload easier to blame everything on Muslim extremists or indeed Muslims in general than take a long hard look at the real underlying problems and fix them.

Everything above is so perfectly stated. And whoever called this psychotic piece of shit out above for likely being gay also nailed it. NAILED IT. Anyone that gets so completely unhinged by seeing two men kissing that he'd go on a shooting rampage as such is clearly dealing with deeply seated issues with his own sexuality.

iLander|1465830635|4043557 said:
The secret truth of strict gun control is not the fear that only criminals will have guns: it's the fear that only the military/police will have guns. This is why assault rifles, automatic guns, etc., are available to average citizens. Every NRA member believes that one day, society will break down, and they will have to protect their family against "the government". A Waco-type standoff looms large in their collective subconscious.

IF something like that happens, the military/police will utterly wipe out the "citizens." How do these fools think they will fight back against fighter jets, tanks, etc.? They won't, and they will be obliterated. The entitled have no reason to fight back citing oppression. They're not oppressed. How dare they have to pay taxes on all the shit they want, nay, they demand for free?!! I mean, really! It's not fair!

ame · Jun 13, 2016

RE this nonsense:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shawn-lawrence-otto/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick_b_10429290.html

That guy is such a dirtbag. I saw that mess yesterday and I LOVE that everyone called him out for being full of it about the scheduled tweet and for posting verses in the past. People combed his entire tweet history and said he'd literally never posted one before, and it was evident he did it on purpose and deliberately pointed it at the victims of this event.

I hope this is political suicide and that it ends him for good.

House Cat · Jun 13, 2016

Matata|1465833698|4043566 said:
part gypsy|1465831743|4043559 said:

No words. Even though he was investigated by the FBI and a domestic abuser supposedly, still had no problem buying these weapons 2 weeks before the event??? Our gun control is not working.

Click to expand...

True. And we have Congress and the NRA and good citizen crybabies to thank for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg

Sigh.

This makes me very, very angry.

I hate our Congress.

momhappy · Jun 13, 2016

I am not at all surprised by Obama's comments. He's in denial. Always has been.
They reported today that when the shooter was 14 years-old, he cheered during the 9/11 attacks, saying it was what America deserved (he was removed from class and sent home)

The Orlando shooting may not have been directed by ISIS, but it was still a motivating factor. These are exactly the sorts of attacks that ISIS calls for - they call for individuals to plan and execute their own attacks.
As far as guns are concerned, what is the answer? I have yet to hear of someone come up with a valid solution to the problem. I am in full agreement that changes could/should be made (for example, the shooter should have not had the ability to purchase weapons after being on a terror watch list), but beyond that, what exactly needs to happen to make things better? Look what happened in France. They have gun control and 130 people were killed in terrorist attacks. And look at Chicago. Shootings were up 88% during the first 3 months of 2016 (compared to 2015). Most of us can agree that some things need to change, but what and how? Complaining about how things need to change is one thing, but actually talking about a solution is another.

monarch64 · Jun 13, 2016

momhappy|1465844171|4043605 said:
I am not at all surprised by Obama's comments. He's in denial. Always has been.
They reported today that when the shooter was 14 years-old, he cheered during the 9/11 attacks, saying it was what America deserved (he was removed from class and sent home)
The Orlando shooting may not have been directed by ISIS, but it was still a motivating factor. These are exactly the sorts of attacks that ISIS calls for - they call for individuals to plan and execute their own attacks.
As far as guns are concerned, what is the answer? I have yet to hear of someone come up with a valid solution to the problem. I am in full agreement that changes could/should be made (for example, the shooter should have not had the ability to purchase weapons after being on a terror watch list), but beyond that, what exactly needs to happen to make things better? Look what happened in France. They have gun control and 130 people were killed in terrorist attacks. And look at Chicago. Shootings were up 88% during the first 3 months of 2016 (compared to 2015). Most of us can agree that some things need to change, but what and how? Complaining about how things need to change is one thing, but actually talking about a solution is another.

If banning things doesn't work (and I am not a proponent of bans on anything), then perhaps we as a society should start better protecting ourselves from these lunatics by wearing Kevlar vests and helmets when we attend school, go to concerts, go to sporting events, church, nightclubs, anywhere there is a mass gathering. I mean honestly, that's what we're down to. I wear a life jacket on the water, not because it's taking away my personal freedom, but because it might save my life, so logically why wouldn't I take the same step with Kevlar?

momhappy · Jun 13, 2016

^and I agree that it's a crazy, messed up world we live in.
Even if we wanted to ban guns (and I don't have any interest in banning guns), we couldn't do it. It wouldn't work. And even if we somehow managed to ban guns (and successfully took them away from all of the gun owners) it wouldn't be the answer that some people seem to think it would be. Criminals would still have guns, radical Islamic terrorists would still have guns, etc. etc. etc.

House Cat · Jun 13, 2016

This is an issue that starts with Congress.

The members of congress are constantly campaigning. This means that they are constantly fundraising. Who is one of the largest, if not THE largest special interest group in our nation? The NRA. That is who is lining the pockets of our congress people. Congress will continually vote to please the groups that fund their campaigns in order to maintain their seats in office, PERIOD.

We need to vote for campaign reform. We need to vote for reform in congressional office, terms of two years and only two terms at that. We need to DEMAND change in congress...period.

People need to understand that it is congress that holds all of the strings here and it is the NRA that holds the strings over congress. Once that is REALLY understood as fact...not as some conspiracy theory, we might get somewhere.

OCgirl · Jun 13, 2016

So basically we're saying since we assume/we "know" stricter gun controls won't work because people who want access to guns will still get them anyway?
So what's the point of having passports? Criminals can easily get access to fake passports anyway.
What's the point of having any sorts of controls because criminals and/or terrorists will have access to whatever they want anyway.

And how do we even know this? I am not a criminal or terrorist so I really have no idea how EASY it is to just circumvent laws to do whatever you want.

momhappy · Jun 13, 2016

^How do we know this? I guess we don't, but it's seems to be a reasonable guess. Look at Chicago.

OCgirl · Jun 13, 2016

momhappy|1465851330|4043643 said:
^How do we know this? I guess we don't, but it's seems to be a reasonable guess. Look at Chicago.

I don't think two cities (Chicago and Paris) are enough to justify not moving forward with stricter gun controls.
Law-abiding citizens can still get guns. But it will (OR possibly) prevent people who shouldn't have their hands on weapons to get them as easily.
It just doesn't make sense to me that we are not doing ANYTHING about it while people keep dying out there.

kenny · Jun 13, 2016

Clearly we should eliminate all laws, since some people break them.

Gypsy · Jun 13, 2016

Unfortunately this surprised me not at all.

http://deadstate.org/arizona-christian-pastor-doesnt-think-the-massacre-in-an-orlando-lgbt-nightclub-was-so-bad/

BeekeeperBetty · Jun 13, 2016

I haven't had a chance to read through all the comments, but has this been posted?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily_videos/president-obama-talks-guns-at-pbs-town-hall/

I thought everything he says here makes perfect sense.

OCgirl · Jun 13, 2016

Gypsy|1465862907|4043701 said:
Unfortunately this surprised me not at all.

http://deadstate.org/arizona-christian-pastor-doesnt-think-the-massacre-in-an-orlando-lgbt-nightclub-was-so-bad/

Why do people like these even... exist? If there is a God, he/she must've fallen asleep and drank too much and overlooked the fact that this person got placed here. WTF

OCgirl · Jun 13, 2016

BeekeeperBetty|1465864891|4043709 said:
I haven't had a chance to read through all the comments, but has this been posted?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily_videos/president-obama-talks-guns-at-pbs-town-hall/

I thought everything he says here makes perfect sense.

"People need a license to drive but do not need one to buy a gun."

Exactly. So if we say oh well people are going to drive without licenses anyway if they really want to, what's the point of requiring everyone to get a driver's license? You can buy a car and start driving, what's stopping you?

momhappy · Jun 13, 2016

http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/07/7-gun-control-myths-that-just-wont-die/

packrat · Jun 13, 2016

monarch64 · Jun 13, 2016

Packie, touche!

All I know is that when you forbid things, the result is never positive. For example, when your religion forbids homosexuality and you go and shoot up a LGBTQ+ club. The guns are a symptom of a whole other shitstain on this world.

Here's some crazytown no one's been talking about: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rhoden-family-killings-no-answers-new-dispute-month-article-1.2649276

And here's this video from a female former CIA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnEKEfkdrOU
"Everybody thinks they're the good guy." And why do you suppose they think that? Because it's what they are brainwashed with from birth.

Matata · Jun 13, 2016

Ok. So if we can't do anything about guns, how about hate speech? Can we agree that suppression of hate speech is a good thing?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/tanya-cohen/2015/01/here-is-why-its-time-to-get-tough-on-hate-speech-in-america/

Matata · Jun 13, 2016

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mitch-mcconnell-orlando-moment-of-silence_us_575ee76ce4b071ec19ee8e64

monarch64 · Jun 13, 2016

Matata|1465870858|4043737 said:
Ok. So if we can't do anything about guns, how about hate speech? Can we agree that suppression of hate speech is a good thing?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/tanya-cohen/2015/01/here-is-why-its-time-to-get-tough-on-hate-speech-in-america/

I think we need to take a look at why hate speech exists. From where does the hatred stem? Once again, you can suppress, you can ban, you can forbid, but that doesn't mean you can stop it or even control it to a "manageable" point.

Shooting at Orlando Nightclub

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