Abortion Ban Victory in OK

[katharath]

Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy.

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

I don't think it's very simple. I look at it this way. If someone truly believes life begins at conception , then in their mind abortions are killing babies. Now, pretend that's true, even if you dont believe that it is. In that case, would it upset you? I think it would. You don't want dead babies and you dont want someone to be allowed to kill a baby. I'm talking about everyone here. As no one here wants to kill a baby. This is obvious. But the thing is the vast majority of people don't believe that. If they did, it wouldn't be 80%+ who are in favor of legal abortions to save the mother or because of medical issues. These are the people I don't understand. I understand the devout believers that think life begins at conception. Science and the majority of society disagrees with you, but I get why it's upsetting. If you're someone who thinks it's OK, but only in _____ circumstances - who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?

I understand what you're saying, so I guess I should rephrase - FOR ME, abortion is a simple issue. I think people who want to get an abortion should be able to, without judgement and obstacles being placed on them from others who have no business being involved.

And I totally agree with that

And I apologize for all of the excess quoting/long posts!

 

[Maria D]

Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy.

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

I don't think it's very simple. I look at it this way. If someone truly believes life begins at conception , then in their mind abortions are killing babies. Now, pretend that's true, even if you dont believe that it is. In that case, would it upset you? I think it would. You don't want dead babies and you dont want someone to be allowed to kill a baby. I'm talking about everyone here. As no one here wants to kill a baby. This is obvious. But the thing is the vast majority of people don't believe that. If they did, it wouldn't be 80%+ who are in favor of legal abortions to save the mother or because of medical issues. These are the people I don't understand. I understand the devout believers that think life begins at conception. Science and the majority of society disagrees with you, but I get why it's upsetting. If you're someone who thinks it's OK, but only in _____ circumstances - who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?

Thank you Niel, this summarizes the whole complex debate perfectly.

One thing I've admired about Catholic dogma on this matter is at least it's consistent. There's no line drawn in the sand for heartbeats, fingers, toes, etcetera. Does it have potential to one day be human life? Then you don't mess with it. You don't even masturbate if it means wasting sperm. The sperm hasn't formed a baby's heart yet, but it could have met up with an egg and formed one later, so if you've wasted it you have sinned. Raped and pregnant? Not the potential baby's fault. Feel blessed. Mother may die? Sorry, one life is not more important than another in the eyes of (Catholic) god. The following is a response to the question of whether or not abortion is acceptable to save a mother's life taken from priestsforlife.org:

"There are two questions at issue here. One is medical (Is there ever need for an abortion to save the mother's life?) and the other is moral (Would an abortion in that case be justified?) The answer to both questions is no. There is no medical situation whose only solution is a direct abortion, as many doctors have testified. Morally speaking, furthermore, it is never right to directly kill an innocent person, even if good results are foreseen. We do not say that a baby's life is more important than the mother's. We do say that they are equal. You may never directly kill either one of them. If, in spite of the best medical efforts, one or both of them die, nothing morally wrong has been done, because an effort has been made to save life, but has failed. That is far different from killing."

The vast majority of Americans do not believe in this dogma and that includes Catholics. Anecdotally, no one in my entire extended family, all of whom (except for me and my husband) still consider themselves Catholic, believes this.

And yet, as you point out, the pro-lifers are on the one hand insistent the life begins at conception (or maybe even before) yet exceptions can be made. I've got my own theories on the answer to "who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?" but I'll keep them to myself.

I'd like to add this question though. If your rationale for the denial of legal access to abortion in the United States of America is based on your "acceptable" religion, how do you feel that differs from Sharia Law?

 

[monarch64]

Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy.

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

Ladies, I give you: Men Drawing Vaginas. (Vulvas).
https://mic.com/articles/106974/we-asked-men-to-draw-vaginas-to-prove-an-important-point#.Dlq6kt7a8

From the bottom of that video linked by JaneSmith: The real takeaway? Funny as the video may be, our lawmakers' lack of knowledge about women's bodies shouldn't be laughed off. Clearly, and unfortunately, the average male doesn't know the first thing about a woman's body, and some are suffering the very real negative consequences of this ignorance. Need proof? In 2014 alone, approximately 75% of anti-choice bills — laws that legislate only a woman's autonomy — were sponsored by men.

While the outgoing 113th Congress is the most diverse in history, it's still an old boys club (more than 80% male, about 80% white and an average of 60 years old).

If this video teaches us anything, it's how hard we need to continue to work to change that.

I think this is an important point. WHY are men (who know nothing about women's bodies) making law to limit what we do with them!?

You guys, that is one of the saddest things I have ever seen. I knew it was bad but those illustrations really drive home the point. The level of ignorance and misinformation is shocking.

 

[Abby12]

This is so disturbing. Women's rights are one of my biggest concerns with the current state of the republican party. I am liberal on almost every issue, but of course feel more strongly about some issues compared to others. This (and the racism/anti-LGBT) is what scares me the most about Trump. Lots of things scare me about him, but this is the one I find the most upsetting as a woman. I LITERALLY cannot imagine how a woman could be in favor of this--even if she doesn't personally agree that abortions are moral--it's the bigger issue of women not having control over our OWN BODIES and choices.

Exactly! One does not have to agree personally to agree with a woman having the right to choose.

 

[JaneSmith]

Religious objections to abortion focus on the products of conception and ignore the autonomous woman entirely, except when she is called on to martyr herself for the fetus. Women have, for millennia, been second class citizens, sub-males, fractions of humans. Women are property, servants of men and gods, bearers of the father's lineage.

No one has the right to use another's human's body against their will.




To continue on the topic of consequences, how many of the supporters of these so called 'pro life' bills also support a vast social safety net for these mothers and babies?

 

[JaneSmith]

Also, are all 'pro-lifers' (who are medically able to do so):
Blood donors?
Marrow donors?
Organ donors?
Living donors? Do you still have both kidneys? How selfish of you.

Can you imagine the incredible pushback a government would (rightly) get if all citizens where forced to give blood and marrow and organs? It is incredibly unethical to coerce someone to give of their body.

No one has the right to use another human's body against their will.

 

[missy]

Religious objections to abortion focus on the products of conception and ignore the autonomous woman entirely, except when she is called on to martyr herself for the fetus. Women have, for millennia, been second class citizens, sub-males, fractions of humans. Women are property, servants of men and gods, bearers of the father's lineage.

No one has the right to use another's human's body against their will.




To continue on the topic of consequences, how many of the supporters of these so called 'pro life' bills also support a vast social safety net for these mothers and babies?

And to loosely quote Katarath " If you don't want an abortion, don't have one but don't tell other women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies."

 

[hay joe]

Someone's butchering the English language is not something to which I object just on general principles. I believe that people should be free to express themselves as they wish in most situations. I have been having work done on my house and my contractor, who is extremely intelligent, says "don't" for "doesn't" routinely. Since he is so bright, I sometimes wonder why he continues to speak that way, but I keep my thoughts to myself. I actually enjoy listening to him speak, as it is almost a dialect (in my opinion).

However, when someone is trying to communicate with me and is deliberately sloppy in his writing, he is being deliberately sloppy in his thinking. Because one has to think things out in order to write clearly and, conversely, one can be very sloppy in one's thinking if one allows oneself to be sloppy in one's writing.

In order to write clearly, one must think clearly; that is why I insisted on clarity when I taught students to write papers for my classes.

I do not feel that I can have an intelligent, rational "conversation" with someone who does not write with clarity.

AGBF

You wrote "Second, "f@@@ing" appears to be consequence free for men. Men use abortions and pregnancy to punish women for their part in what , by definition, has to be a mutual effort."

Ok, I'll own the sloppy and you can have the vulgar. I don't care that you look down upon me I'm sure I am in good company.

 

[AGBF]

Someone's butchering the English language is not something to which I object just on general principles. I believe that people should be free to express themselves as they wish in most situations. I have been having work done on my house and my contractor, who is extremely intelligent, says "don't" for "doesn't" routinely. Since he is so bright, I sometimes wonder why he continues to speak that way, but I keep my thoughts to myself. I actually enjoy listening to him speak, as it is almost a dialect (in my opinion).

However, when someone is trying to communicate with me and is deliberately sloppy in his writing, he is being deliberately sloppy in his thinking. Because one has to think things out in order to write clearly and, conversely, one can be very sloppy in one's thinking if one allows oneself to be sloppy in one's writing.

In order to write clearly, one must think clearly; that is why I insisted on clarity when I taught students to write papers for my classes.

I do not feel that I can have an intelligent, rational "conversation" with someone who does not write with clarity.

You wrote "Second, "f@@@ing" appears to be consequence free for men. Men use abortions and pregnancy to punish women for their part in what , by definition, has to be a mutual effort."

Ok, I'll own the sloppy and you can have the vulgar. I don't care that you look down upon me I'm sure I am in good company.

About that "f" word, Joe. We BOTH used it. When I used it, I was quoting someone else and when you used it you were quoting someone else. I used an asterisk on the "u" to render the word less vulgar and you used the @ sign. So I am vulgar and you are not?

I think the asterisk is just as good as the @ sign. So that makes me vulgar and you both vulgar and sloppy. I'd rather be only vulgar than sloppy as well!

 

[AGBF]

About that "f" word, Joe. We BOTH used it. When I used it, I was quoting someone else and when you used it you were quoting someone else. I used an asterisk on the "u" to render the word less vulgar and you used the @ sign. So I am vulgar and you are not?

I think the asterisk is just as good as the @ sign. So that makes me vulgar and you both vulgar and sloppy. I'd rather be only vulgar than sloppy as well!

I just went back and checked and saw that I neglected to add the asterisk to the "f*cking" the way I routinely do. So you were right and I was wrong, Joe. I apologize. You were not as vulgar as I was. I don't like to use that word myself, although I will quote it. It may have its place, but not in my writing here.

AGBF

 

[hay joe]

About that "f" word, Joe. We BOTH used it. When I used it, I was quoting someone else and when you used it you were quoting someone else. I used an asterisk on the "u" to render the word less vulgar and you used the @ sign. So I am vulgar and you are not?

I think the asterisk is just as good as the @ sign. So that makes me vulgar and you both vulgar and sloppy. I'd rather be only vulgar than sloppy as well!

I just went back and checked and saw that I neglected to add the asterisk to the "f*cking" the way I routinely do. So you were right and I was wrong, Joe. I apologize. You were not as vulgar as I was. I don't like to use that word myself, although I will quote it. It may have its place, but not in my writing here.

AGBF

No need to apologize. I assumed you just made a mistake. When you pointed out one of my deficiencies I felt the need to respond. I should not have done that. I was wrong to do so. Oddly enough I felt uneasy while copying, changing the letters to @ and posting that. I don't cuss but I am not offended by it.
That was kind and thank you,
Ok now back to butting heads!
Joe

 

[Ellen]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

 

[monarch64]

Also, are all 'pro-lifers' (who are medically able to do so):
Blood donors?
Marrow donors?
Organ donors?
Living donors? Do you still have both kidneys? How selfish of you.

Can you imagine the incredible pushback a government would (rightly) get if all citizens where forced to give blood and marrow and organs? It is incredibly unethical to coerce someone to give of their body.

No one has the right to use another human's body against their will.

JaneSmith, I hate to point out a glaring hole in your argument, but you've left out "Penis donors?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/health/thomas-manning-first-penis-transplant-in-us.html?_r=0

 

[kenny]

JaneSmith, I hate to point out a glaring hole in your argument, but you've left out "Penis donors?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/health/thomas-manning-first-penis-transplant-in-us.html?_r=0

I'm no professor of anatomy, but wouldn't a glaring hole more likely refer to a vagina donor, not a penis donor?

 

[monarch64]

JaneSmith, I hate to point out a glaring hole in your argument, but you've left out "Penis donors?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/health/thomas-manning-first-penis-transplant-in-us.html?_r=0

I'm no professor of anatomy, but wouldn't a glaring hole more likely refer to a vagina donor, not a penis donor?

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny. Think outside "the box."

That glaring hole could be of the urethral or anal variety!

 

[hay joe]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I did something you approved of? Me? Are you sure? Hey PS admin. someone has hacked into Ellen's account!

Ha ha ha!
Have a good day Ellen,
Joe

 

[JaneSmith]

JaneSmith, I hate to point out a glaring hole in your argument, but you've left out "Penis donors?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/health/thomas-manning-first-penis-transplant-in-us.html?_r=0

I'm no professor of anatomy, but wouldn't a glaring hole more likely refer to a vagina donor, not a penis donor?

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny. Think outside "the box."

That glaring hole could be of the urethral or anal variety!

you guys. Now I have an image of a glaring vagina.

 

[JaneSmith]

 

[kenny]

Gee, this has been the friendliest abortion thread in PS history.


... a dubious honor, at best.

 

[AGBF]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I did something you approved of? Me? Are you sure? Hey PS admin. someone has hacked into Ellen's account!

Ha ha ha!
Have a good day Ellen,
Joe

Thank you, Ellen and Joe. I must say that it feels really wonderful to receive a kind response like the one you gave me, Joe. To me it shows an open, generous heart that does not just wait to sit in judgement. Ellen, in my eyes, you always see the good in everyone. It is one reason I am proud to call you a friend.

kenny is right. Most friendly abortion thread on PS to date.

Deb

 

[azstonie]

Baiting.

That's what this thread was all about and its Hay Joe's second as such.

What would happen if Hay Joe has his THIRD abortion baiting thread and NO ONE TAKES THE BAIT?

Hay Joe would have to go somewhere else to preach his particular brand of control and superiority.

Let's stop these threads in their tracks. Hay Joe will have to go elsewhere. And when was the last time you saw a DIAMOND or COLORED GEM STONE or BRANDED JEWELRY posting from him? I say he's lost his cred around these parts anyway for non-jewelry participation.

 

[AGBF]

Baiting.

That's what this thread was all about and its Hay Joe's second as such.

What would happen if Hay Joe has his THIRD abortion baiting thread and NO ONE TAKES THE BAIT?

Hay Joe would have to go somewhere else to preach his particular brand of control and superiority.

Let's stop these threads in their tracks. Hay Joe will have to go elsewhere. And when was the last time you saw a DIAMOND or COLORED GEM STONE or BRANDED JEWELRY posting from him? I say he's lost his cred around these parts anyway for non-jewelry participation.

First of all, I respectfully disagree with you about Joe's intentions. I feel you are being unnecessarily harsh and judgmental about him.

Second of all, I have no idea when Joe's latest posting in a diamond thread was, but he posted here about warm colored diamonds, not that I believe that Joe should have to earn your approval in order to post in Hangout. I will continue to converse with him. He has treated me fairly and with courtesy.

Link...[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/share-your-warm-diamonds-k-color-and-lower-id-love-to-see.221991/#post-4020056#p4020056']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/share-your-warm-diamonds-k-color-and-lower-id-love-to-see.221991/#post-4020056#p4020056[/URL]

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

Baiting.

That's what this thread was all about and its Hay Joe's second as such.

What would happen if Hay Joe has his THIRD abortion baiting thread and NO ONE TAKES THE BAIT?

Hay Joe would have to go somewhere else to preach his particular brand of control and superiority.

Let's stop these threads in their tracks. Hay Joe will have to go elsewhere. And when was the last time you saw a DIAMOND or COLORED GEM STONE or BRANDED JEWELRY posting from him? I say he's lost his cred around these parts anyway for non-jewelry participation.

I started the thread, not hay joe.

 

[hay joe]

Baiting.

That's what this thread was all about and its Hay Joe's second as such.

What would happen if Hay Joe has his THIRD abortion baiting thread and NO ONE TAKES THE BAIT?

Hay Joe would have to go somewhere else to preach his particular brand of control and superiority.

Let's stop these threads in their tracks. Hay Joe will have to go elsewhere. And when was the last time you saw a DIAMOND or COLORED GEM STONE or BRANDED JEWELRY posting from him? I say he's lost his cred around these parts anyway for non-jewelry participation.

This thread was started by Kenny.

 

[kenny]

Hay, is there an echo in here?

 

[AGBF]

Baiting.

That's what this thread was all about and its Hay Joe's second as such.

What would happen if Hay Joe has his THIRD abortion baiting thread and NO ONE TAKES THE BAIT?

Hay Joe would have to go somewhere else to preach his particular brand of control and superiority.

Let's stop these threads in their tracks. Hay Joe will have to go elsewhere. And when was the last time you saw a DIAMOND or COLORED GEM STONE or BRANDED JEWELRY posting from him? I say he's lost his cred around these parts anyway for non-jewelry participation.

This thread was started by Kenny.

Well, OK, then. I have NO problem ostracizing kenny.

Deb

 

[hay joe]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

Just to be clear, (obviously I'm not very good at that) my earlier post was my attempt at a funny thank you.

Your response was kind and appreciated,
Joe

 

[AGBF]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

Just to be clear, (obviously I'm not very good at that) my earlier post was my attempt at a funny thank you.

Your response was kind and appreciated,
Joe

Believe me, Joe, she got it the first time. You're not that much of a Neanderthal!

Deb

 

[Ellen]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

Just to be clear, (obviously I'm not very good at that) my earlier post was my attempt at a funny thank you.

Your response was kind and appreciated,
Joe

Joe, I cannot tell a lie. lol I actually did not know exactly where you were going with that post. The first part had me saying, what? The last part sounded like you were kidding and appreciative. But overall I thought I better just sit on it awhile. In doing so, I see you 'splained it for me. Thanks.

 

[Ellen]

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I did something you approved of? Me? Are you sure? Hey PS admin. someone has hacked into Ellen's account!

Ha ha ha!
Have a good day Ellen,
Joe

Thank you, Ellen and Joe. I must say that it feels really wonderful to receive a kind response like the one you gave me, Joe. To me it shows an open, generous heart that does not just wait to sit in judgement. Ellen, in my eyes, you always see the good in everyone. It is one reason I am proud to call you a friend.

kenny is right. Most friendly abortion thread on PS to date.

Deb

Deb, thank you. Your kind words mean a great deal to me. And I know you know I think quite a bit of you as well my friend.