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Abortion Ban Victory in OK

Ellen

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Gypsy|1463796282|4034268 said:
The government is not the place for morals at all.

Morality is a personal issue. And is individual to each person.

Laws against murder, etc are for the "public good." Because they are not victimless crimes. And I pretty much only believe that the only type of crimes that should be dealt with by the government are ones that have actual victims. I don't think suicide should be a crime. And I don't believe government has any right to regulate any marriages except for requiring informed consent of the adults party to it. And that's only to protect minors.

An abortion has no victim. A fetus is not a human being. It's not even an animal. This is not a moral issue. It's a fact. It cannot live outside its incubator. It has no heart, or LIFE of it's own. It's a parasite. At least until a certain point. AND UNTIL THAT POINT it is a medical issue. Pure and simple. Like removing a tumor.

Making it ANYTHING ELSE is imposing YOUR morality on the rest of us. NO THANK YOU.

If men got pregnant this would not be an issue. You could have a safe effective abortion via a pill you could get from any doctor via a prescription.

Which is the way it should be.

Why isn't it that way? Because the Christian Right doesn't believe in it. And because men want to control women's bodies.

This isn't a Christian Country. And we have freedom OF and FROM religion. And bodily integrity should be an unalienable right.

You don't believe in abortion Joe? You don't get one. Don't sleep with someone who would get one. And make sure you use 2 kinds of birthcontrol (oh, wait, is that against your morality too???) to make sure you protect yourself AND your partner any time you have sex. Or just wait to have sex only when you can afford and want a child and then only have sex for procreation. Those are all YOUR rights. But that's really all that is OR SHOULD BE your right.

You do not get to impose your morality on me.
Hey Gypsy. :wavey:

I am a little confused by the parts in bold. According to the Mayo clinic, a baby's heart is forming at 3 weeks after conception. Which technically isn't even a "fetus" yet, by definition.

fetus
noun fe·tus
Medical Definition of fetus
plural fetuses or chiefly British foetuses or foeti \ˈfēt-ˌī\play
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth—compare embryo


But back to the heart.

Week 5: The embryonic period begins
"The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form"

And it is beating by the next week.

Week 6: The neural tube closes
Growth is rapid this week. Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing and your baby's heart is pumping blood

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302

So a fetus definitely has a heart. Would you mind clarifying?


A 6 week old heartbeat for anyone who has never seen one. Scroll down just a tad for video.

http://www.newhealthguide.org/When-Does-A-Baby-Have-A-Heartbeat.html
 

yssie

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Ellen|1463834768|4034379 said:
Gypsy|1463796282|4034268 said:
The government is not the place for morals at all.

Morality is a personal issue. And is individual to each person.

Laws against murder, etc are for the "public good." Because they are not victimless crimes. And I pretty much only believe that the only type of crimes that should be dealt with by the government are ones that have actual victims. I don't think suicide should be a crime. And I don't believe government has any right to regulate any marriages except for requiring informed consent of the adults party to it. And that's only to protect minors.

An abortion has no victim. A fetus is not a human being. It's not even an animal. This is not a moral issue. It's a fact. It cannot live outside its incubator. It has no heart, or LIFE of it's own. It's a parasite. At least until a certain point. AND UNTIL THAT POINT it is a medical issue. Pure and simple. Like removing a tumor.

Making it ANYTHING ELSE is imposing YOUR morality on the rest of us. NO THANK YOU.

If men got pregnant this would not be an issue. You could have a safe effective abortion via a pill you could get from any doctor via a prescription.

Which is the way it should be.

Why isn't it that way? Because the Christian Right doesn't believe in it. And because men want to control women's bodies.

This isn't a Christian Country. And we have freedom OF and FROM religion. And bodily integrity should be an unalienable right.

You don't believe in abortion Joe? You don't get one. Don't sleep with someone who would get one. And make sure you use 2 kinds of birthcontrol (oh, wait, is that against your morality too???) to make sure you protect yourself AND your partner any time you have sex. Or just wait to have sex only when you can afford and want a child and then only have sex for procreation. Those are all YOUR rights. But that's really all that is OR SHOULD BE your right.

You do not get to impose your morality on me.
Hey Gypsy. :wavey:

I am a little confused by the parts in bold. According to the Mayo clinic, a baby's heart is forming at 3 weeks after conception. Which technically isn't even a "fetus" yet, by definition.

fetus
noun fe·tus
Medical Definition of fetus
plural fetuses or chiefly British foetuses or foeti \ˈfēt-ˌī\play
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth—compare embryo


But back to the heart.

Week 5: The embryonic period begins
"The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form"

And it is beating by the next week.

Week 6: The neural tube closes
Growth is rapid this week. Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing and your baby's heart is pumping blood

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302

So a fetus definitely has a heart. Would you mind clarifying?


A 6 week old heartbeat for anyone who has never seen one. Scroll down just a tad for video.

http://www.newhealthguide.org/When-Does-A-Baby-Have-A-Heartbeat.html


I don't find Gypsy's terminology any more confusing than calling a 6week embryo "your baby".
 

Gypsy

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Ellen is having a heart the definition of a human being? No. I eat chicken hearts. I included that in response to an earlier comment. If it is too confusing for you just ommit it, mentally, out of what I wrote. Until the fetus is viable it is a parasite. Period.
 

Ellen

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Gypsy|1463864579|4034542 said:
Ellen is having a heart the definition of a human being? No. I eat chicken hearts. I included that in response to an earlier comment. If it is too confusing for you just ommit it, mentally, out of what I wrote. Until the fetus is viable it is a parasite. Period.
What I was getting at Gypsy, is the fact that a fetus DOES have a heart, In fact, there is a heart before it's a fetus. In fact, it has a heart forming before the woman even knows she's pregnant for sure. It wasn't so much the terms I was alluding to (that was more an aside), as the fact that you erroneously stated a fetus doesn't have a heart.

I have to say, your post leaves me rather speechless. Your tone is uncalled for, as I felt (and certainly tried) to asked you nicely to elaborate, and I got insultingly snarky. Thanks Gypsy
 

JaneSmith

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It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.
 

ksinger

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JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.

Yes, prior to viability, the state has absolutely no business telling any woman what she may or may not do with her body. After that, the point on the continuum shifts, and some societal input is generally acceptable. But never to the point of the ideology of the state preferring the person yet to be born, over life of the person already here, as this its-not-religion-it's-religion story should make blazingly clear.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/08/abortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman
 

lovedogs

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JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.

Exactly. I think this point gets missed all to often. It simply doesnt matter whether there's a heartbeat, fingers, toes, etc. Until it is viable, it is the woman's decision.

ETA that at the point of viability I agree with Kslinger that some input is fine, but never at the expense of the woman's heath (e.g. forcing someone to continue a pregnancy that may be dangerous to her health).
 

Niel

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hay joe|1463800663|4034297 said:
Gypsy|1463796282|4034268 said:
The government is not the place for morals at all.

Morality is a personal issue. And is individual to each person.

Laws against murder, etc are for the "public good." Because they are not victimless crimes. And I pretty much only believe that the only type of crimes that should be dealt with by the government are ones that have actual victims. I don't think suicide should be a crime. And I don't believe government has any right to regulate any marriages except for requiring informed consent of the adults party to it. And that's only to protect minors.

An abortion has no victim. A fetus is not a human being. It's not even an animal. This is not a moral issue. It's a fact. It cannot live outside its incubator. It has no heart, or LIFE of it's own. An abortion has no victim. At least until a certain point. AND UNTIL THAT POINT it is a medical issue. Pure and simple. Like removing a tumor.

Making it ANYTHING ELSE is imposing YOUR morality on the rest of us. NO THANK YOU.

If men got pregnant this would not be an issue. You could have a safe effective abortion via a pill you could get from any doctor via a prescription.

Which is the way it should be.

Why isn't it that way? Because the Christian Right doesn't believe in it. And because men want to control women's bodies.

This isn't a Christian Country. And we have freedom OF and FROM religion. And bodily integrity should be an unalienable right.

You don't believe in abortion Joe? You don't get one. Don't sleep with someone who would get one. And make sure you use 2 kinds of birthcontrol (oh, wait, is that against your morality too???) to make sure you protect yourself AND your partner any time you have sex. Or just wait to have sex only when you can afford and want a child and then only have sex for procreation. Those are all YOUR rights. But that's really all that is OR SHOULD BE your right.

You do not get to impose your morality on me.


I want no laws protecting it or eliminating it. My gosh! it's almost completely avoidable. Smarten up!
I don't see abortion as a religious issue either.

You... "I'd be driven to homicide." ...nice
"An abortion has no victim. At least until a certain point." At what point is that?


So besides just really, really wanting to say pro -abortion, why did you post hayjoe?

Arw you saying you're against it but you don't want laws preventing people from doing it?

And it's naive to say it's almost avoidable. Ignoring the obvious reason many get abortions, what is avoidable about someone getting pregnant and finding out their life is at risk? What's avoidable about a woman finding out her baby would die shortly after birth if taken to term?
 

kenny

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Gypsy|1463807022|4034316 said:
hay joe|1463800663|4034297 said:
"An abortion has no victim. At least until a certain point." At what point is that?

Viability. When it can exist on its own.

And even then, if the mother's life is in jeopardy she should not be forced to chose her child's life over her own by the law.

Your posts are incoherent. If you are going to argue the point, please post complete thoughts in proper sentences. And without insults.


+1, I agree that hayjoe's posts in this thread are incoherent.

Hayjoe since you say it's not about religion please present support/reasoning for the positions you take in this thread.
(When someone gets their position from their religion reasoning, argument, debating just fly out the window.)


... then again, if you consider this request "letting the hating begin" as you bizarrely put it, well, don't bother and have a nice day.
 

Ellen

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JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.
Well I only posted about the heartbeat because Gypsy made an erroneous statement about it. So it's not a red herring here, she brought it up. (as if lack of one meant something...) I didn't say one word about who should or shouldn't get an abortion, whose right it is or isn't, or anything else. You want an abortion? That is your prerogative. But if one wants to argue with misleading information in the name of their supposed rights, you may just get called on it. And that's my right.

Funny how Gypsy is clearly the one in error here, but I'm the one getting the heat. :lol:
 

Tekate

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Nope it's not consequence free, but it is MY choice to live with MY consequences. I bleed for 8-10 days every 24 days (like clockwork) for over 40 years, I lived with it. We all live with some sort of consequence. I just don't want to limit other women their right to their consequences of their actions. We stop hearts all the time in Texas, the sanctity of life should not just be for the zygote should it? It's a very hard decision to have an abortion I am sure, and I don't walk in anyone else's life, I believe in allowing a woman the right to do with her body what she believes is best for her. I believe all male babies should be circumcised, for health reasons, but that doesn't mean I have the right to pass a law saying all male babies must be circumcised, some religions don't want it, some do. If we stop butting into what a person is doing in the bedroom and in their legal lives it would be a better America.


Laila619|1463754088|4033976 said:
JaneSmith|1463717379|4033866 said:
They are trying to open a wedge to overturn Roe vs Wade. States have passed similar laws before, all struck down, as this one too should be.

I wonder how many of the people supporting this bill have had an abortion, and rationalized that theirs was somehow just.

Agree with liaerfbv. Some seem incensed by women who like to**** consequence free.
Well their "****ing" isn't always consequence free, now, is it? There's the tiny little issue of having to stop their fetus' beating heart and then bleed out the products of conception for 1-2 weeks. Let's at least be honest. It's not really consequence free, is it?
 

Gypsy

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Ellen|1463875970|4034588 said:
JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.
Well I only posted about the heartbeat because Gypsy made an erroneous statement about it. So it's not a red herring here, she brought it up. (as if lack of one meant something...) I didn't say one word about who should or shouldn't get an abortion, whose right it is or isn't, or anything else. You want an abortion? That is your prerogative. But if one wants to argue with misleading information in the name of their supposed rights, you may just get called on it. And that's my right.

Funny how Gypsy is clearly the one in error here, but I'm the one getting the heat. :lol:

Ellen, what exactly is your point in this thread? To hall monitor my posts for accuracy? Well you've done that. I've admitted to the error and asked you to pretend it's not there since I can't go back and edit it. And now there's this passive aggressive post of yours martyring yourself and continuing to harp on my "grave" error. What more do you want me to do? Beg forgiveness? Not happening.

Are you bored? Do you want attention? Cause I for one am baffled at your posts which have no pertinent content to the subject matter at hand.
 

Ellen

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Gypsy|1463878564|4034603 said:
Ellen|1463875970|4034588 said:
JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.
Well I only posted about the heartbeat because Gypsy made an erroneous statement about it. So it's not a red herring here, she brought it up. (as if lack of one meant something...) I didn't say one word about who should or shouldn't get an abortion, whose right it is or isn't, or anything else. You want an abortion? That is your prerogative. But if one wants to argue with misleading information in the name of their supposed rights, you may just get called on it. And that's my right.

Funny how Gypsy is clearly the one in error here, but I'm the one getting the heat. :lol:

Ellen, what exactly is your point in this thread? To hall monitor my posts for accuracy? Well you've done that. I've admitted to the error and asked you to pretend it's not there since I can't go back and edit it. And now there's this passive aggressive post of yours martyring yourself and continuing to harp on my "grave" error. What more do you want me to do? Beg forgiveness? Not happening.

Are you bored? Do you want attention? Cause I for one am baffled at your posts which have no pertinent content to the subject matter at hand.
Nice try Gypsy.

Failed. :wavey:
 

JaneSmith

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Ellen|1463875970|4034588 said:
JaneSmith|1463869258|4034567 said:
It doesn't matter what stage of development an embryo or fetus has reached, it is the decision of the human it is attached to and inside of whether or not it may stay.
A heartbeat is a red herring in this case.
Well I only posted about the heartbeat because Gypsy made an erroneous statement about it. So it's not a red herring here, she brought it up. (as if lack of one meant something...) I didn't say one word about who should or shouldn't get an abortion, whose right it is or isn't, or anything else. You want an abortion? That is your prerogative. But if one wants to argue with misleading information in the name of their supposed rights, you may just get called on it. And that's my right.

Funny how Gypsy is clearly the one in error here, but I'm the one getting the heat. :lol:
If I mean to talk to a person specifically, I will use the quote function or write to them with their name. The above post is simply my next statement in an ongoing thread, a general contribution. It is not giving anyone 'heat', and I fail to see how you took it so personally.




The detection of a heartbeat, the formation of limbs, feeling movement, these are all arbitrary lines drawn in the sand. The focus must be on the bodily autonomy of the woman.

I wrote 'consequence-free' earlier because it is often a pro life (pro forced birth) dogwhistle and I was using it in reverse fashion. Almost all choices have consequences, but women being forced (with glee from certain quarters) to carry and give birth to an unwanted human being because she should suffer the consequences of having - and, shockingly, even enjoying - sex, is grotesque.

A woman should not be pregnant if she does not want to be. At any stage of pregnancy, she should be able to terminate the pregnancy. That does not always mean the end of the fetus. I am not suggesting a D&E for a potentially viable fetus. A Dilation and Extraction is done on a second or third trimester fetus only if it has some congenital defect that is incompatible with life.
Most abortions, where available, are performed very early in the pregnancy, and if one cares to view the stats for areas with good sex education, good access to birth control, and good access to safe abortion, one would see that not only are abortions performed less often than where services are scarce or difficult to access, one would see that most are done in the first six-eight weeks.

Stupid, anachronistic laws like this are not science or evidence based. People may be wising up and removing overtly religious language from their bills, but the blame for this oppressive dark ages crap can be laid directly at the alter of the U.S's most popular god.
 

azstonie

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hay joe|1463795407|4034266 said:
I am anti-abortion. The opposite of pro-abortion. On no! that's right "No one is pro-abortion". Ya sure, a million plus a year but no one is for it. Give me a break.... And! I don't want in your womb!

I want no laws protecting it or eliminating it. My gosh! it's almost completely avoidable. Smarten up!

The same parental authorization that applies to the Dentist should apply to the abortionist.

This is a personal, moral issue for adults. The government is not a good place to look to find high morals.

I don't see abortion as "national women's health care" issue. Very few are done to enhance a women's health.

I don't see abortion as a religious issue either.

Let the hate spew.

You're the one consistently spewing the hate here.
 

hay joe

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azstonie|1463884203|4034640 said:
hay joe|1463795407|4034266 said:
I am anti-abortion. The opposite of pro-abortion. On no! that's right "No one is pro-abortion". Ya sure, a million plus a year but no one is for it. Give me a break.... And! I don't want in your womb!

I want no laws protecting it or eliminating it. My gosh! it's almost completely avoidable. Smarten up!

The same parental authorization that applies to the Dentist should apply to the abortionist.

This is a personal, moral issue for adults. The government is not a good place to look to find high morals.

I don't see abortion as "national women's health care" issue. Very few are done to enhance a women's health.

I don't see abortion as a religious issue either.

Let the hate spew.

You're the one consistently spewing the hate here.


When? Where? If that is the case Stonie, show me and I will make amends and correct my behavior. Can you say the same?

By the way I thought you were not going to respond to my posts. You suggested everyone should not respond, correct?
 

hay joe

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Kenny
"+1, I agree that hayjoe's posts in this thread are incoherent.

Hayjoe since you say it's not about religion please present support/reasoning for the positions you take in this thread.
(When someone gets their position from their religion reasoning, argument, debating just fly out the window.)


... then again, if you consider this request "letting the hating begin" as you bizarrely put it, well, don't bother and have a nice day.
________________________________________________

"letting the hating begin" I didn't put it that way. The hate starts when someone dares to disagree with the clique.

My position and thoughts on abortion and birth control did not come from the Church. You have positions and thoughts on the topic and you don't believe, correct?

I do butcher the English language. I don't give it much never mind in this environment.
 

monarch64

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Some of the comments in this thread make me feel like I'm living in the 1950s. :shock: So happy the younger generation (those terrible, awful Millenials!) is interested in education, facts, and progress! :appl: :wavey: :dance:
 

ksinger

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hay joe|1463927338|4034758 said:
Kenny
"+1, I agree that hayjoe's posts in this thread are incoherent.

Hayjoe since you say it's not about religion please present support/reasoning for the positions you take in this thread.
(When someone gets their position from their religion reasoning, argument, debating just fly out the window.)


... then again, if you consider this request "letting the hating begin" as you bizarrely put it, well, don't bother and have a nice day.
________________________________________________

"letting the hating begin" I didn't put it that way. The hate starts when someone dares to disagree with the clique.

My position and thoughts on abortion and birth control did not come from the Church. You have positions and thoughts on the topic and you don't believe, correct?

I do butcher the English language. I don't give it much never mind in this environment.

Am I to assume then, that you disagree with the well publicized and unequivocal NO positions of your church, on both birth control (beyond abstinence) and abortion?
 

hay joe

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Niel wrote
"So besides just really, really wanting to say pro -abortion, why did you post hayjoe?

Arw you saying you're against it but you don't want laws preventing people from doing it?

And it's naive to say it's almost avoidable. Ignoring the obvious reason many get abortions, what is avoidable about someone getting pregnant and finding out their life is at risk? What's avoidable about a woman finding out her baby would die shortly after birth if taken to term?"
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I have no problem saying pro-abortion, some people are, most wont admit it, but they are free to use their own words for it.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"Arw you saying you're against it but you don't want laws preventing people from doing it?"
Yes. It being illegal and it not being done are two different things.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"And it's naive to say it's almost avoidable"
I wrote "My gosh! it's almost completely avoidable" Your not saying most people don't know how babies are made are you? How not to get pregnant are you?
_______________________________________________
"Ignoring the obvious reason many get abortions"
No I will not.
_________________________________________________
"....what is avoidable about someone getting pregnant and finding out their life is at risk?
Those cases are rare correct? that's why...."it's almost completely avoidable."
 

Niel

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hay joe|1463929621|4034778 said:
Niel wrote
"So besides just really, really wanting to say pro -abortion, why did you post hayjoe?

Arw you saying you're against it but you don't want laws preventing people from doing it?

And it's naive to say it's almost avoidable. Ignoring the obvious reason many get abortions, what is avoidable about someone getting pregnant and finding out their life is at risk? What's avoidable about a woman finding out her baby would die shortly after birth if taken to term?"
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I have no problem saying pro-abortion, some people are, most wont admit it, but they are free to use their own words for it.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"Arw you saying you're against it but you don't want laws preventing people from doing it?"
Yes. It being illegal and it not being done are two different things.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"And it's naive to say it's almost avoidable"
I wrote "My gosh! it's almost completely avoidable" Your not saying most people don't know how babies are made are you? How not to get pregnant are you?
_______________________________________________
"Ignoring the obvious reason many get abortions"
No I will not.
_________________________________________________
"....what is avoidable about someone getting pregnant and finding out their life is at risk?
Those cases are rare correct? that's why...."it's almost completely avoidable."


Maybe I'm not accustomed to the way you post on this forum, but I genuinely don't understand what your viewpoint is.

Yea, you can say anything you please. I choose to be pro-accuracy but you have the right to be anti accuracy if you so choose.

So you want people to be allowed to do it? You specifically don't like it but want people to have the right to do it? You're pro choice? Your statement seems pro choice.

And no, those cases are not rare, I can name 2 PSers alone who have had AND shared those experiences. And I don't care if they are one in one million, if it happens, a woman should have the right to terminate.

And I meant ignore the abortions just to terminate unwanted pregnancies for the purposes of my one post. But if you want to bring it up, then sure. Let's.

If one believes it's OK to terminate a pregnancy to save the mother's life or becuase of a birth defect- then you by definition are pro choice. You are saying, in some instances you're OK with it. Now, if you're OK with it sometimes you can't other times call it murder. It's murder or its not. Each of us has the right to determine what circumstances warrant a termination of their own pregnancy. Youve choose to draw the line before unwanted pregnancies, but that doesn't mean that the act is any different before or after that line you've drawn in your mind. Is the doctor performing the operation going to do it differently depending on how you ended up on her table? No. This is why people choice is important. Each woman has a line in their mind of when it is and is not OK to terminate her own pregnancy - up to the point of viability.

And do many people know how babies are made? With the far right pushing desperately to teach absorbance only - no. Sadly, a lot of people do not.
 

monarch64

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Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,143
Someone's butchering the English language is not something to which I object just on general principles. I believe that people should be free to express themselves as they wish in most situations. I have been having work done on my house and my contractor, who is extremely intelligent, says "don't" for "doesn't" routinely. Since he is so bright, I sometimes wonder why he continues to speak that way, but I keep my thoughts to myself. I actually enjoy listening to him speak, as it is almost a dialect (in my opinion).

However, when someone is trying to communicate with me and is deliberately sloppy in his writing, he is being deliberately sloppy in his thinking. Because one has to think things out in order to write clearly and, conversely, one can be very sloppy in one's thinking if one allows oneself to be sloppy in one's writing.

In order to write clearly, one must think clearly; that is why I insisted on clarity when I taught students to write papers for my classes.

I do not feel that I can have an intelligent, rational "conversation" with someone who does not write with clarity.

AGBF :read:
 

katharath

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,850
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.
 

JaneSmith

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Messages
1,589
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.
Ladies, I give you: Men Drawing Vaginas. (Vulvas).
https://mic.com/articles/106974/we-asked-men-to-draw-vaginas-to-prove-an-important-point#.Dlq6kt7a8
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
20,044
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

I don't think it's very simple. I look at it this way. If someone truly believes life begins at conception , then in their mind abortions are killing babies. Now, pretend that's true, even if you dont believe that it is. In that case, would it upset you? I think it would. You don't want dead babies and you dont want someone to be allowed to kill a baby. I'm talking about everyone here. As no one here wants to kill a baby. This is obvious. But the thing is the vast majority of people don't believe that. If they did, it wouldn't be 80%+ who are in favor of legal abortions to save the mother or because of medical issues. These are the people I don't understand. I understand the devout believers that think life begins at conception. Science and the majority of society disagrees with you, but I get why it's upsetting. If you're someone who thinks it's OK, but only in _____ circumstances - who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
18,030
JaneSmith|1463958387|4034921 said:
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.
Ladies, I give you: Men Drawing Vaginas. (Vulvas).
https://mic.com/articles/106974/we-asked-men-to-draw-vaginas-to-prove-an-important-point#.Dlq6kt7a8

From the bottom of that video linked by JaneSmith: The real takeaway? Funny as the video may be, our lawmakers' lack of knowledge about women's bodies shouldn't be laughed off. Clearly, and unfortunately, the average male doesn't know the first thing about a woman's body, and some are suffering the very real negative consequences of this ignorance. Need proof? In 2014 alone, approximately 75% of anti-choice bills — laws that legislate only a woman's autonomy — were sponsored by men.

While the outgoing 113th Congress is the most diverse in history, it's still an old boys club (more than 80% male, about 80% white and an average of 60 years old).

If this video teaches us anything, it's how hard we need to continue to work to change that.

I think this is an important point. WHY are men (who know nothing about women's bodies) making law to limit what we do with them!?
 

katharath

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,850
Niel|1463960910|4034931 said:
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

I don't think it's very simple. I look at it this way. If someone truly believes life begins at conception , then in their mind abortions are killing babies. Now, pretend that's true, even if you dont believe that it is. In that case, would it upset you? I think it would. You don't want dead babies and you dont want someone to be allowed to kill a baby. I'm talking about everyone here. As no one here wants to kill a baby. This is obvious. But the thing is the vast majority of people don't believe that. If they did, it wouldn't be 80%+ who are in favor of legal abortions to save the mother or because of medical issues. These are the people I don't understand. I understand the devout believers that think life begins at conception. Science and the majority of society disagrees with you, but I get why it's upsetting. If you're someone who thinks it's OK, but only in _____ circumstances - who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?

I understand what you're saying, so I guess I should rephrase - FOR ME, abortion is a simple issue. I think people who want to get an abortion should be able to, without judgement and obstacles being placed on them from others who have no business being involved.
 

katharath

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,850
lovedogs|1463961056|4034932 said:
JaneSmith|1463958387|4034921 said:
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.
Ladies, I give you: Men Drawing Vaginas. (Vulvas).
https://mic.com/articles/106974/we-asked-men-to-draw-vaginas-to-prove-an-important-point#.Dlq6kt7a8

From the bottom of that video linked by JaneSmith: The real takeaway? Funny as the video may be, our lawmakers' lack of knowledge about women's bodies shouldn't be laughed off. Clearly, and unfortunately, the average male doesn't know the first thing about a woman's body, and some are suffering the very real negative consequences of this ignorance. Need proof? In 2014 alone, approximately 75% of anti-choice bills — laws that legislate only a woman's autonomy — were sponsored by men.

While the outgoing 113th Congress is the most diverse in history, it's still an old boys club (more than 80% male, about 80% white and an average of 60 years old).

If this video teaches us anything, it's how hard we need to continue to work to change that.

I think this is an important point. WHY are men (who know nothing about women's bodies) making law to limit what we do with them!?

I hear you and fully agree.
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
20,044
katharath|1463961741|4034937 said:
Niel|1463960910|4034931 said:
katharath|1463956999|4034913 said:
monarch64|1463933141|4034793 said:
Niel, you're right--no, a lot of people do NOT know how babies are made. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this very forum who think that women have 2 holes and that urine comes out of the vagina. Oh, and that the word "vagina" encompasses the entire genital area. And other fun things like male circumcision being mandatory for hygiene purposes. There are people here who could explain the intricacies of diamond quality for hours on end who at the same time do not understand basic human anatomy. :???:

This is so sad but SO true. Out of curiosity, I've actually asked many of my guy friends and previous partners really basic questions on their knowledge re: female anatomy, and I'm not kidding, almost all of them thought this.

Abortion is very, very simple: if you don't want one, don't have one. Please keep your concern about what other women choose to do to yourself.

I don't think it's very simple. I look at it this way. If someone truly believes life begins at conception , then in their mind abortions are killing babies. Now, pretend that's true, even if you dont believe that it is. In that case, would it upset you? I think it would. You don't want dead babies and you dont want someone to be allowed to kill a baby. I'm talking about everyone here. As no one here wants to kill a baby. This is obvious. But the thing is the vast majority of people don't believe that. If they did, it wouldn't be 80%+ who are in favor of legal abortions to save the mother or because of medical issues. These are the people I don't understand. I understand the devout believers that think life begins at conception. Science and the majority of society disagrees with you, but I get why it's upsetting. If you're someone who thinks it's OK, but only in _____ circumstances - who are you to decide someone else's circumstances?

I understand what you're saying, so I guess I should rephrase - FOR ME, abortion is a simple issue. I think people who want to get an abortion should be able to, without judgement and obstacles being placed on them from others who have no business being involved.

And I totally agree with that ::)
 
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