What's your opinion on minimum wages going up to $15?

[Gypsy]

At 15 dollars an hour for doing a repetitive remedial task they may become unemployed. That's my concern.

Most people I know WANT to work. They don't want to sit on unemployment getting depressed day after day. They want to be active.

And you can't sit on unemployment indefinitely. That's just BS. You have to LOOK for work. There are conditions for it. And it expires.

I agree with azstone.

The business owners will find ways to offset or eliminate these costs. Automation and fewer workers are surely in their future plans. Both mean fewer jobs.

Okay so. You just flip flopped.

First you said that you were against it because you think it will encourage people to sit on unemployment. Then when confronted with reality you flipped to say that employers are the problem, and that they will find a way to make their profits (a very liberal POV) no matter what.

I thought you were a die hard Rightie Joe. Or are you just playing with us?

 

[Mesma]

I'm European, though engaged to a US citizen and I've spent an accumulated 5 years over the last 10 in the US. My future children will probably be raised in the states so I follow US politics very closely. I hold a degree in economics, but received that from a European university (one in a country with a very healthy economy), so it was more in regards to our economies than the US ones. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

I don't know if a 15$ minimum wage is the best for each and every region of the US, but overall, it appears to be much needed. An increasing amount of people are pushed into living in poverty, sometimes due to fault of their own, but sometimes also due to circumstances that are out of their own control (debt over medical bills, just being unlucky to be born into a poor family). In the US being poor is pretty expensive, both in the short and long term - credit ratings are checked not only by banks and businesses that might approve loans, but also prospective landlords and employers, and living in a poor neighborhood without a proper grocery store ("food deserts") and reliable transportation will have a negative impact on health and live expectancy. A quick google search shows that almost 47 million Americans live in poverty and one in five children receive food stamps. The number of Americans that rely on food banks has gone up by 30% since 2007, despite, as of April 1st, a consecutive 73 months of private sector job growth. So this isn't a "welfare state people don't want to work" issue, this is something that effects people that DO work.

The argument that minimum wage jobs are meant as stepping stone jobs is completely moot. It doesn't matter what they are "meant to" be (who decided that anyway??), in many regions minimum wage jobs are the only kind of employment available not only to unskilled, but also to moderately skilled workers. Just check your local craigslist job listings if you don't believe me. Besides, how is a job that people literally cannot live on supposed to work as a stepping stone? Have you tried getting an education if you get evicted because you can't pay rent? Have you tried getting job training if you can't buy enough food to sustain yourself? We are not talking about people owning three bedroom homes and sending their kids to college on a minimum wage, we're talking about bare bone basic necessities like a roof over the head and sustenance!

Now, no one's asking more affluent Americans to graciously allow their compatriots a half-way dignified life out of the goodness of their heart. Increased wages actually effect the overall economy positively! A minimum wage worker barely scraping by will put any salary increase they receive right back into the economy by buying more food, clothes, cars and other necessities. Trickle down economics honestly don't work in a world where rich business owners ship their money off to illegal off-shore accounts (panama papers...) or invest in new factories in China and Cambodia, rather than in the US.
Even companies benefit from increasing their wages, which is why McDonald's are voluntarily increasing their entry level Wage starting July 1st of this year! They did this as a response to an increase in productivity in locations where this was trialed, which lead to an increase in sales and thus profit (much needed in an industry such as fast food that has hugely fallen out of favor with the health food movement of the last 15 years). If anyone's thinking about those self-service counters that are slowly popping up now, think no further. We've had them in Europe in most McD's for well over a decade. Sure, we have a higher minimum wage here on average, but a value meal also costs around 7$. I can promise you, these machines will come regardless of whether minimum wage gets increased or not.

Edit: oh right, to that person that asked whether they were still expected to tip waiters after the minimum wage increase: Waiters are usually payed far less than minimum wage as they are "expected" to be tipped. My fiance worked in the hospitality industry for several years and started out making something like 2$/hour in an area where the minimum wage is about 9$/hour.

 

[Gypsy]

Mesma,
I agree with your post.

One little piece of information:
A lot of the more affluent areas (well, those in liberal states anyway) already have 'living wage' laws for food servers in restaurants. For example, here in the Bay Area, most food servers already make above the federal minimum wage hourly, not including tips. I know that we have those in the Bay Area. And they still get tipped. Most people are unaware of this.

But yes, in most areas of the US food servers are exempted from the minimum wage laws.

I am appalled at the question though. Really? Tipping is going to make or break you? And what part of MINIMUM wage are you missing? Like the people serving your food are sub-human and don't deserve to make more than the bare minimum needed to survive.

 

[hay joe]

At 15 dollars an hour for doing a repetitive remedial task they may become unemployed. That's my concern.

Most people I know WANT to work. They don't want to sit on unemployment getting depressed day after day. They want to be active.

And you can't sit on unemployment indefinitely. That's just BS. You have to LOOK for work. There are conditions for it. And it expires.

I agree with azstone.

The business owners will find ways to offset or eliminate these costs. Automation and fewer workers are surely in their future plans. Both mean fewer jobs.

Okay so. You just flip flopped.

First you said that you were against it because you think it will encourage people to sit on unemployment. Then when confronted with reality you flipped to say that employers are the problem, and that they will find a way to make their profits (a very liberal POV) no matter what.


I thought you were a die hard Rightie Joe. Or are you just playing with us?

You are adding words to what I wrote.

"First you said that you were against it because you think it will encourage people to sit on unemployment."
No. Not set on unemployment, get layed off, get unemployed. Their position being eliminated. That's my concern.

"Then when confronted with reality you flipped to say that employers are the problem, and that they will find a way to make their profits (a very liberal POV) no matter what.
Employers are not the problem, they are the answer to this problem. The more employers there are the more competition there is for workers. As the demand for workers increases, the value of the needed worker increases. That's how and why a person gets paid more for the same services they provided previously. Employers are people/business' that offer jobs, a good thing. Profits are a good thing. That's the reason business' exist. Profits are great, that's how a business succeeds. They use profit to expand, add workers, pay more for/to employees, save for lean times, pay share holders, ect. All of which are good things.

"confronted with reality"
What I just wrote explains my reality.

Me having a "(a very liberal POV)" or "You just flip flopped".
No.

Me not explaining my position clear enough.
Obviously, sorry for the confusion.

 

[ame]

Good or bad for our economy?
IMO they should raise the minimum in Ca. and NY. to $10.50 now and then slowly towards $15 in 8 yrs.

EXCELLENT for the economy. And long overdue. Needs to be done in nearly every part of the country, and needed to be done years ago. You can't live on even $10/hr in most parts of the country, let alone $15 in CA and NY. If most people weren't so anti-Union and would realize what most Unions do for people in terms of protecting wages for the most vulnerable, people would make a living wage already. Further, Unions and great wages are actually great for business. If you pay your people and provide them with great benefits--not your CEOs, your ACTUAL workforce, they will not only not be in debt, they'll want to work for you, want to spend money on your f'ing products, therefore you will make money. It's the way the cycle works. If you pay them less, or employ less people, they have less to spend, therefore you make less money and less profits. It's pretty f'ing obvious.

 

[hay joe]

If $15 per hour in 4 years or so is a good thing, why delay it? Why not $18 in 2 years? Why not $20 this year? Inflation, lay offs, business closing? If it is so good and it will have just minor or no negative effects why not now? An election year promise/give away now and suffer the impact after the election? Another ACA type promise? Another "look at what the government did for you" line? If you are an employer and think this is a good idea, did you give your employees a 50% raise yesterday? What's the hold up? They will just buy more stuff from you. It's just that easy.

 

[liaerfbv]

If $15 per hour in 4 years or so is a good thing, why delay it? Why not $18 in 2 years? Why not $20 this year? Inflation, lay offs, business closing? If it is so good and it will have just minor or no negative effects why not now? An election year promise/give away now and suffer the impact after the election? Another ACA type promise? Another "look at what the government did for you" line? If you are an employer and think this is a good idea, did you give your employees a 50% raise yesterday? What's the hold up? They will just buy more stuff from you. It's just that easy.

Clearly your post signature is not really in line with your beliefs.

Sad that you think paying employees a living wage for work done is a "give away."

 

[hay joe]

Liaerfbv,
I am not sure I have heard the definition of or have seen a dollar amount that clarifies the term "living wage", so I will guess. The thought that any and all services rendered have a dollar value that can support one person is absurd, unless you devalue others.

An hourly wage should be stated or rendered through a negotiation between an employer and an employee or bargaining unit before hire. Not mandated by the government.

Do you look upon the government as a charitable organization? A Robin Hood with prisons, take from one and give to another under the threat of incarceration? Make commitments to some for others to keep. With debt that is hard to imagine, does it appear to you they are they good at making financial decisions?

A free economy allows some to more than prosper. Good for them. Others are not so lucky. Me, I crawl around on my grease stained hands and knees under trucks and am grateful to do it.

We should all help the needy, lift each other up, help them help themselves. Because it's the right thing to do, not need to be made to do it.

So if you look upon a person making a low wage as a case for charity, do you give to them? Or is that for others to do?

 

[liaerfbv]

Liaerfbv,
I am not sure I have heard the definition of or have seen a dollar amount that clarifies the term "living wage", so I will guess. The thought that any and all services rendered have a dollar value that can support one person is absurd, unless you devalue others.

An hourly wage should be stated or rendered through a negotiation between an employer and an employee or bargaining unit before hire. Not mandated by the government.

Do you look upon the government as a charitable organization? A Robin Hood with prisons, take from one and give to another under the threat of incarceration? Make commitments to some for others to keep. With debt that is hard to imagine, does it appear to you they are they good at making financial decisions?

A free economy allows some to more than prosper. Good for them. Others are not so lucky. Me, I crawl around on my grease stained hands and knees under trucks and am grateful to do it.

We should all help the needy, lift each other up, help them help themselves. Because it's the right thing to do, not need to be made to do it.

So if you look upon a person making a low wage as a case for charity, do you give to them? Or is that for others to do?

It would be nice if we lived in a world where we all do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. In my opinion, doing the right thing in this scenario is paying employees a wage that working a 40 hour work week, they are able to support themselves taking into consideration the cost of living in their area. The problem is that we have corporations, the Taco Bell's and McDonald's, etc., that find it more important to pay their CEOs millions than support their employees with a wage that they can afford to live in a home not in squalor and provide food for themselves. I do not think that those working at these places deserve charity, or deserve to make the same wage as a skilled worker. I am a paralegal, and I make far far less than the attorneys I work for. They are higher skilled workers than I am. But I support the notion that a government can step in and say, we have a responsibility to our citizens to ensure they are able to live on the money they are earning. Do I think raising minimum wage to $15 immediately accomplishes this? No, but I think it's a good first step. I support the notion that non-skilled workers deserve to live a life free from never-ending poverty. Should we allow corporate greed to run unchecked at the expense of our citizens because you don't like the idea of government oversight?

 

[Queenie60]

We are in Silicon Valley where cost of living is very expensive. My husband and I employ about 30 people around the bay area - they manage our real estate, maintain the landscape and do various other things so that we can be a profitable business. If not for these very valuable employees (most of them not highly educated) we would not be where we are today. So in summary, I believe in paying employees livable wages - we pay our employees very well, provide lower cost housing for them; continue to pay for their rising medical benefits (no thanks to the ACA) and have very little turnover in the past 20+ years. Turnover of employees can be very expensive, so if you treat them properly you can eliminate most of that expense. These are people that are honored to work for my husband because he treats them with dignity and respect. If we, the small business owner can do this then I can't understand why the very large corporations are not willing to do this.

I do agree, especially in California and New York - we need to have a higher minimum wage for these workers.

 

[packrat]

GREED. The end.

 

[amc80]

I am appalled at the question though. Really? Tipping is going to make or break you? And what part of MINIMUM wage are you missing? Like the people serving your food are sub-human and don't deserve to make more than the bare minimum needed to survive.

But the argument for tipping servers was they made below minimum wage. By your statement, do we need to be tipping all workers who make minimum age?

 

[Tekate]

problem is, for many it did become their forever, life time job. In Europe waiters are forever, full time jobs, and they are paid a livable wage, it's considered a career. I'm for paying people a living wage.

 

[Tekate]

I think you are absolutely right on all counts. I read in the NYTimes that airlines are running out of pilots.. and the regional carriers are being hit the worst.. airlines cut to the bone.. profit... low pay for regional pilots - I mean like 22k a year has allowed the low paid pilots to move up to national airlines, so who's going to fly your regional flites? they cannot keep up with the training.. Imagine going to medical school and incurring 150K of loans and getting out of school and the only job you qualify for is a 17K job flying caskets? way to go America.

If people think that fast food employees are all high schoolers I say that isn't true anymore.

The dumbing down of the USA shows so keenly in the election this year.. Very scary.

No one I went to high school with held jobs at McDonald's. We babysat, worked at gas stations or small stores or in our parents' businesses. Mowed lawns. The people working at McDonald's were part timers who were moms or men who'd been to prison and that was the best job they could find.

Today, the workers I see at McDonald's are adults, not high school students.

This "high school student" justification for slave wages/no benefits is BS.

And besides, how is working long hours every week in fast food a good use of time for high school students or college students, or really ANYONE? Ya got the rest of your life to work a $#itty job for $#itty pay in sweat shop conditions. As has been pointed out, there is no "next level skill set" to be acquired in fast food. I'd much rather see a high school or college student apply themselves to their education rather than shoving garbage-level food out a window to fat diabetics who can well afford to pay REAL MONEY for real food but just don't.

Honestly, I find Americans exhausting on this subject. You want to live in a society where only a fraction have medical insurance? Hey, you're the BEST, way to be compassionate and in line with your church dogma. You want to live in a society where the quality of medical care has plummeted because we don't educate our citizens at the right time in their lives, so while you lay on your butt in the assisted living facility expect bedsores and infections and unchanged diapers and bad food and rough handling because really, that's what you receive when the overworked immigrant or undereducated person assigned to you has been treated by society this way along the way. Expect that your air conditioner, your plumbing, your electrical, your gas, your car, your refrigerator, WHATEVER cannot be fixed because we are now a nation of numbskulls because everyone worshipped at the COLLEGE COLLEGE COLLEGE altar and vocational education and training went out the window. Whole city blocks blow up because of the idiot worker who backhoes where they should not, or the gas company gave up on maintenance because "it costs too much." Same thing for the infrastructure of the US---roads, bridges and the like. No complaining from you when the bridge crumbles from beneath you. You want low taxes and less government. Well you got it now, baby.

Because, hey, buying cheap shit at a constant rate is worth more to you than a healthy, educated and competent society.

I'm so sick of people who think they will be untouched by the have-nots and the dumbed down society the US has become. So sure, let's have LESS government (you love those airbags that kill you with shrapnel, highly contaminated drinking water, unbreathable air, bad roads, uninspected food sources and drugs, etc.).

And has been said already over on the Millenial threat, GET OFF MY LAWN YOU KIDS!

 

[Dancing Fire]

If $15 per hour in 4 years or so is a good thing, why delay it? Why not $18 in 2 years? Why not $20 this year? Inflation, lay offs, business closing? If it is so good and it will have just minor or no negative effects why not now? An election year promise/give away now and suffer the impact after the election? Another ACA type promise? Another "look at what the government did for you" line? If you are an employer and think this is a good idea, did you give your employees a 50% raise yesterday? What's the hold up? They will just buy more stuff from you. It's just that easy.

Yup, That is the negative side of this topic, b/c a lot of businesses will close its doors if we raise the minimum wage too high and too quick.

 

[Gypsy]

I am appalled at the question though. Really? Tipping is going to make or break you? And what part of MINIMUM wage are you missing? Like the people serving your food are sub-human and don't deserve to make more than the bare minimum needed to survive.

But the argument for tipping servers was they made below minimum wage. By your statement, do we need to be tipping all workers who make minimum age?

No. We don't need to do that. I actually don't like the whole tipping thing at all and think it's getting out of hand, frankly. So most of the time DH and I don't go out to places that require tipping or eat in. But the tipping is an institution in the US and while the living wage laws to give servers more than 2 bucks an hour they still, in these areas, depend for tips for a large part of their salaries. And unless you want to walk around asking people "what is your hourly wage" every time you go to a restaurant then adjusting your tip according to what you thought they deserve in light of that, and dealing with the flack that ensues, it would need to be changed at an institutional level.

When I was much younger I took a trip to Paris. I ate at a lovely expensive restaurant one night and tipped them 20%. The waiter ran me down to give me my money back. Telling me that in France you don't tip like you do in the US. And he was PROUD of that. I thought it was great too. His employer actually paid his salary. *GASP*.

I don't like having to tip for every little thing. It's one of the reasons I detest going to Manhattan. Everyone has their hand out for tips. From the minute you set foot on that island no matter who you talk to, you have to tip them. It's ridiculous.

I will tip the people who do my personal hygiene and also will tip servers at restaurants because it MY CHOICE to use their services; knowing a tip is expected. But would I rejoice if it was all changed and their employers actually paid them directly? Yes, I think I would. That said, just because I don't like tipping doesn't mean I get to opt out of it when I chose to use the services of someone who, by the standards of their industry, expects a tip.

 

[ame]

We are in Silicon Valley where cost of living is very expensive. My husband and I employ about 30 people around the bay area - they manage our real estate, maintain the landscape and do various other things so that we can be a profitable business. If not for these very valuable employees (most of them not highly educated) we would not be where we are today. So in summary, I believe in paying employees livable wages - we pay our employees very well, provide lower cost housing for them; continue to pay for their rising medical benefits (no thanks to the ACA) and have very little turnover in the past 20+ years. Turnover of employees can be very expensive, so if you treat them properly you can eliminate most of that expense. These are people that are honored to work for my husband because he treats them with dignity and respect. If we, the small business owner can do this then I can't understand why the very large corporations are not willing to do this.

I do agree, especially in California and New York - we need to have a higher minimum wage for these workers.

Why aren't they? Because some CEO needs a big mcmansion, a yacht and a bigger bonus for doing little to nothing in his corner office while everyone below him does all the work.

No one I went to high school with held jobs at McDonald's. We babysat, worked at gas stations or small stores or in our parents' businesses. Mowed lawns. The people working at McDonald's were part timers who were moms or men who'd been to prison and that was the best job they could find.

Today, the workers I see at McDonald's are adults, not high school students.

This "high school student" justification for slave wages/no benefits is BS.

And besides, how is working long hours every week in fast food a good use of time for high school students or college students, or really ANYONE? Ya got the rest of your life to work a $#itty job for $#itty pay in sweat shop conditions. As has been pointed out, there is no "next level skill set" to be acquired in fast food. I'd much rather see a high school or college student apply themselves to their education rather than shoving garbage-level food out a window to fat diabetics who can well afford to pay REAL MONEY for real food but just don't.

Honestly, I find Americans exhausting on this subject. You want to live in a society where only a fraction have medical insurance? Hey, you're the BEST, way to be compassionate and in line with your church dogma. You want to live in a society where the quality of medical care has plummeted because we don't educate our citizens at the right time in their lives, so while you lay on your butt in the assisted living facility expect bedsores and infections and unchanged diapers and bad food and rough handling because really, that's what you receive when the overworked immigrant or undereducated person assigned to you has been treated by society this way along the way. Expect that your air conditioner, your plumbing, your electrical, your gas, your car, your refrigerator, WHATEVER cannot be fixed because we are now a nation of numbskulls because everyone worshipped at the COLLEGE COLLEGE COLLEGE altar and vocational education and training went out the window. Whole city blocks blow up because of the idiot worker who backhoes where they should not, or the gas company gave up on maintenance because "it costs too much." Same thing for the infrastructure of the US---roads, bridges and the like. No complaining from you when the bridge crumbles from beneath you. You want low taxes and less government. Well you got it now, baby.

Because, hey, buying cheap shit at a constant rate is worth more to you than a healthy, educated and competent society.

I'm so sick of people who think they will be untouched by the have-nots and the dumbed down society the US has become. So sure, let's have LESS government (you love those airbags that kill you with shrapnel, highly contaminated drinking water, unbreathable air, bad roads, uninspected food sources and drugs, etc.).

And has been said already over on the Millenial threat, GET OFF MY LAWN YOU KIDS!

You nailed it.

Our society has lost respect for the blue collar worker. I see it daily, especially in the environment where I live, The Silicon Valley. Everyone is programmed to believe that they need to be a CEO, Doctor, Lawyer, etc. We have lost sight of the trades, the electricians, plumbers, gardeners, etc. All of these jobs are quite important - we need to rethink these things. When I was growing up we had auto body shop, wood working, home making, "tradesman" type skills taught at the high school level. This allowed the not so academic student to find something they could do for a livable wage. These kids are now lost in the academic system and have no where to turn as adults but the minimum wage jobs. I'm not sure what the answer is - most people I know want to work. The cost of living has been rising steadily so maybe it's time to raise the minimum wage.

Despite the need for trained tradesmen, kids just are not going into them, because most kids don't want manual labor, even at those wages, and the trades are dying off along with skilled workers to repair the equipment/buildings that stood for decades. Skilled tradesmen are retiring and/or having to find other work to supplement. It used to be that a plumber or a laborer or a bricklayer or a painter could put in their day's work, go home and crack open a beer and know they broke their back for a fair wage.

Some in society don't believe that wage was fair though, because many of those craftsmen were in a Union that made sure they got that fair wage, and benefits, and that benefit and wage package took care of that guy and his family through his working years, and him and his wife til they died. He earned that money. But now as time has passed, government groups and contractor associations have broken Unions because they've gotten greedy and in turn lowered wages and raided those earned pensions--THEIR MONEY THAT WAS STOLEN--leaving these people with nothing to retire on, and nowhere to turn but to get another job, likely making minimum wage.

 

[Sky56]

I'm for it. Many people spend their lifetimes working hard at minimum wage jobs. I am an American who is in business and I pay lots of taxes. I'm part of the 1%. I think that anybody who works hard and full-time should be paid a fair wage. I don't worry about myself and the possibility of paying more taxes and higher prices. I think it is obscene that people can work like dogs and have low wages, no sick or vacation time and have no or minimal health insurance.

 

[ericad]

Lack of compassion and empathy is what will be the death of this country, not entitlements. That much is clear from the posts on this thread, and from the current state of politics. Work full time yet live in poverty? Abhorrent, and a shameful reflection on this country. We are no longer great - we are a disgrace until we fix these most basic of problems.

 

[CJ2008]

Corporations will find a way to not have to pay higher wages...

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/13/wendy-s-response-to-minimum-wage-hike-replace-staff-with-machin/21376951/