HOA meeting and prayer that ends with "in Jesus' name"

[LLJsmom]

I'm very reluctantly dipping my toe into this discussion.

Can there be a compromise? For the first five minutes of the meeting:

If you want to pray to God at the beginning, go to a corner of the room with other Christians to do so.

If you want to pray to Allah, go to another corner with other Muslims and do so.

If you don't want to pray at all and catch up on the Bachelor, go to another corner and do so.

Ooops!! Did we run out of corners yet?

No one gets forced into anything. People who want to pray get to pray. People who want to chill out and chat get to do that too. Could that work? No lawsuit needed...

 

[Amber St. Clare]

dickorations bhahahahahahaha I like her style.

I'd've wanted to find pics of sexy guys to hang up so I could have something nice to look at during the day too.

ay I respectfully suggest"

 

[Amber St. Clare]

n/m. I'm the only one who wouldn't mind another glimpse of him.

 

[Jambalaya]

Matata: I agree with what you said in an academic sense. There should be no violations. If the HOA prayers make someone feel really excluded, then that is awful and I feel sorry for them. However, I do not believe that the HOA prayers are on a par with other horrific human rights violations visited on people, like the things that happen to girls in some Middle Eastern countries, to name just one example. I just don't think, for the many reasons I've stated in this thread, that the prayers (or lack of) are so important as to warrant lawsuits, fee witholding, and draconian measures. I also don't think the HOA prayer issue is as serious as many human rights violations which do horrendous harm to people. Indeed, to see all violations as equal dismisses and disrespects the real suffering of the victims of serious human-rights crimes. I don't think you can compare the minor human-rights violation of the people in the HOA meeting who have to listen to the prayers, to those who suffer intensely from the human-rights crimes we are all aware of in certain parts of the world.

To try to put it shorter, I just don't think the HOA prayers are that important in the grand scheme of things and I do not believe that they hold a candle to serious human-rights transgressions. I am well aware that my opinion is in the minority in this thread and I'm good with that.

 

[Jambalaya]

Man, Pricescope is SO addictive! I've got hardly anything done since I was up half the night with Kenny. Am totally behind. But it's a very interesting discussion. I think people go into greater detail here about their thoughts than they might IRL.

I must get some other things done at some point today!!

 

[kenny]

Instead of bothering to believe in stuff without evidence I just go with what I know.
When I die I'm going to ................. be maggot food.

I guess if that not attractive or fluffy enough you could say or 'believe' I go back to what/where I was before I was born ......... nothing/nowhere.
IIRC that wasn't so bad.

Life is a 78-year long E-ticket ride ... so make it a nice ride.

 

[ruby59]

(my 11 year old cannot stand it when his teachers mention religion in a personal way at school, which happens quite a lot, actually!),
________________________________________________________________________

This is what you initially posted and what I responded to. We are all subject to situations we cannot stand but have to make due with.

And if what this teacher is doing is illegal, in your opinion, you should have gone to the Principal or the school board and complained.

 

[ruby59]

Tolerance goes both ways.

______________________________

Unless the teacher was trying to convert non believers, I do not see how discussing religion is intolerant, as long as it is not overdone and shows other ways as well.

And if this teacher is over the top, then you have a sit down with the school.

When my kids went to school, teachers covered it all - Christmas, Hanukkah, Quanzaa(sp) and that some people have no beliefs at all.

 

[ruby59]

Can those who want to pray beforehand, meet a few minutes earlier and pray? That way nobody has to sit and listen to it if they don't want to.
__________________________________________________________

Or those who do not believe can stand respectfully outside the hall for the few minutes it takes and then enter.

 

[OreoRosies86]

"Good afternoon fellow home owners! Before we all get going I'd like to remind everyone that once you die, you'll be dead. You will cease to exist and something else will take your place in this grand, rambling continuum. There is an ever expanding universe surrounding us, and we are a moss covered rock tumbling around. No one has the answers. No. One. Also, pick up your dog poo."

 

[kenny]

I'm very reluctantly dipping my toe into this discussion.

Can there be a compromise? For the first five minutes of the meeting:

If you want to pray to God at the beginning, go to a corner of the room with other Christians to do so.

If you want to pray to Allah, go to another corner with other Muslims and do so.

If you don't want to pray at all and catch up on the Bachelor, go to another corner and do so.

Ooops!! Did we run out of corners yet?

No one gets forced into anything. People who want to pray get to pray. People who want to chill out and chat get to do that too. Could that work? No lawsuit needed...

Which corner is for getting drunk and jerking off?

 

[packrat]

I think you need a circle for that, not a corner.

 

[Maria D]

Tolerance goes both ways.

______________________________

Unless the teacher was trying to convert non believers, I do not see how discussing religion is intolerant, as long as it is not overdone and shows other ways as well.

And if this teacher is over the top, then you have a sit down with the school.

When my kids went to school, teachers covered it all - Christmas, Hanukkah, Quanzaa(sp) and that some people have no beliefs at all.

That is hardly all. Did your kids get this coloring book?

 

[Maria D]

"Good afternoon fellow home owners! Before we all get going I'd like to remind everyone that once you die, you'll be dead. You will cease to exist and something else will take your place in this grand, rambling continuum. There is an ever expanding universe surrounding us, and we are a moss covered rock tumbling around. No one has the answers. No. One. Also, pick up your dog poo."

 

[kenny]

... once you die, you'll be dead. You will cease to exist and something else will take your place in this grand, rambling continuum. There is an ever expanding universe surrounding us, and we are a moss covered rock tumbling around. No one has the answers. No. One. Also, pick up your dog poo."

I agree with all that except, "we are a moss covered rock tumbling around" and "you will cease to exist".

Instead of ceasing to exist you will be maggot food.
Those maggots will poop.
Bacteria will consume the poop.
Something will consume the bacteria.
Something will consume that.
Something will consume that.
Something will consume that.
A human baby will consume that, thereby giving life that that human.

So ... actually ... we all DO have eternal life!

 

[ruby59]

That is hardly all. Did your kids get this coloring book?
______________________________________________

If they had, there would have been a long, long line of parents at the Principal's office demanding that that teacher be fired immediately.

In my children's schools, all religions, and those that did not believe, were always shown in a positive light.

 

[MollyMalone]

As someone who is a religious minority, I hate the "tolerance goes both ways" argument. I actually don't know if I have ever heard a majority voice saying that. It is impossible to really know what being in the minority is until you have experienced it. If I was knowingly walking into a religious event, then of course, have at it. I would be shocked to hear a religious prayer (any religion) at a HOA meeting. Bottom line is that is inappropriate. I don't believe the minority POV should have to conform to the majority. I believe in being inclusive and comfortable for ALL the residents participating.

I served for 10 years as the Sunday School Superintendent of my former church, was the adult leader for the church's teen group for a number of years, chaired the pastor-parish relations committee, sang in the choir, etc. And I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Jambalaya, as the president of my HOA's Board (but for just 4 more weeks, woohoo!), I can think of nothing more needlessly divisive of my condo community than putting the question of whether prayers should be a part of any HOA meeting (annual, board and/or committee) to a vote. It also would consume time and energy that people could put towards other endeavors that would benefit the condo community or the larger world in which we live.

There are countless matters that, as per the governing documents, the unit owners in our HOA do not vote on -- like the budget. This shouldn't be an issue on which a binding referendum is taken.

 

[Jambalaya]

Well, I've written at length here, Molly. To repeat for the fourth or fifth time, I agree that prayers probably don't belong in an HOA. However, if people like them I don't think it's a big issue because no one is forced to pray or listen. I also don't believe these prayers or lack of them are on a par with serious human rights violations, as posters suggested elsewhere. Numerous compromises were suggested in the first couple of pages, such as Gypsy's idea of a moment of silence or wishes for good health and fortune. However, any compromise was also off the table for some. I agree that a vote would be difficult, but people are so incredibly angry and upset about the idea of these HOA prayers (lawsuits, threats to withold fees, any compromise out of the question) that the only way to settle the matter would be a vote. When people are in such a rage and refuse to consider any compromise, and lawsuits and threats are involved, a vote is the fairest and most transparent solution for a situation like this.

To me, the prayers weren't a big deal because no one is forced to pray or listen. No one is forced to pray or listen.

It's others that were really angry about the idea of these prayers, not me. When I was an atheist, I was subjected to a few prayers in places that were not church or private home, and I simply couldn't imagine feeling such a level of anger and outrage about them even if somewhere is technically an odd place to have a prayer. I accepted that some people are religious, and I chose not to listen. No one forced me to. Other people's religion never bothered me - they were not hurting me or harming me in any way. I was an atheist for most of my life and I just cannot imagine taking other people's choice to be religious as such a personal affront. I thought, if people want to pray, let them. They might sound a little silly to me, but whatever, they sound happy. I have a free choice not to pray even of others near me are doing so. I remember being fully tolerant of others nearby who were praying. I didn't see what there was to be so red-hot angry about. I still don't.

 

[Maria D]

Well, I've written at length here, Molly. To repeat for the fourth or fifth time, I agree that prayers probably don't belong in an HOA. However, if people like them I don't think it's a big issue because no one is forced to pray or listen. I also don't believe these prayers or lack of them are on a par with serious human rights violations, as posters suggested elsewhere. Numerous compromises were suggested in the first couple of pages, such as Gypsy's idea of a moment of silence or wishes for good health and fortune. However, any compromise was also off the table for some. I agree that a vote would be difficult, but people are so incredibly angry and upset about the idea of these HOA prayers (lawsuits, threats to withold fees, any compromise out of the question) that the only way to settle the matter would be a vote. When people are in such a rage and refuse to consider any compromise, and lawsuits and threats are involved, a vote is the fairest and most transparent solution for a situation like this.

To me, the prayers weren't a big deal because no one is forced to pray or listen. No one is forced to pray or listen.

It's others that were really angry about the idea of these prayers, not me. When I was an atheist, I was subjected to a few prayers in places that were not church or private home, and I simply couldn't imagine feeling such a level of anger and outrage about them even if somewhere is technically an odd place to have a prayer. I accepted that some people are religious, and I chose not to listen. No one forced me to. I was an atheist for most of my life and I just cannot imagine taking other people's choice to be religious as such a personal affront. I thought, if people want to pray, let them. They might sound a little silly to me, but whatever. I have a free choice not to pray even of others near me are doing so. I didn't see what there was to be so red-hot angry about. I still don't.

Wow, I thought I was paying pretty close attention but I have no idea what you're talking about! Where is this red-hot anger? Withholding association dues hardly equates to rage. Where did someone suggest filing a lawsuit? A person who is not only religious but knows something about HOA associations tells you a vote would be divisive and pointless but you are digging your heels in with your opinion. That's fine - but you're the one that sounds very angry to me.

 

[Jambalaya]

Lawsuits were talked about in quite a few posts near the beginning of the thread, Maria. I have conceded the point about HOAs not being the obvious place for prayers and agreed that it's hard to refute that argument, and I've agreed with much that has been said, so I don't really agree that I've been digging my heels in. I do have an opinion that there are bigger things to worry about in terms of discrimination than HOA prayers, and I've maintained that part of my opinion. I don't think that holding an opinion, even in the face of great disagreement, adequately qualifies as digging your heels in, especially when you have written around the subject at great length, considered many views and conceded many points at various points in the discussion.

Lawsuits, threats to withold fees, and refusals to consider compromise seem pretty angry responses to me. Then, the thread deteriorated into jerking off, Satan, maggots, poop, and the opinion that there is nothing after, which is fine, but it was expressed aggressively with images of maggots and bacteria instead of saying politely "I don't believe in an afterlife." We have a huge lurker pool. Someone with terminal disease could be reading this thread and I'm not sure that the graphic descriptions of what happens to your body are helpful for someone in that situation. I am not complaining about any of this in the slightest - I am mentioning it only to answer your question to me that you asked. You wanted to know where the anger was. My answer to your question is, it's in those things I just described. I am not angry but I am surprised at the strength of feeling shown in the things I have described in this paragraph.

You say I'm the angry one but I thought I was saying the opposite: That back when I was an atheist, the prayers of others never bothered me and I was happy to let others have them, even if I privately thought they were a bit silly.

You also say that a person with HOA experience tells me that a vote would be divisive and pointless but that I dug my heels in. I said this in response to her advice: "I agree that a vote would be difficult, but people are so incredibly angry and upset about the idea of these HOA prayers (lawsuits, threats to withold fees, any compromise out of the question) that the only way to settle the matter would be a vote." (I should have said some people are incredibly angry.)

The vote idea was only due to the (theoretical) situation of unrest, not because it's always a good thing to have votes for everything. I saw her point immediately and said I agreed. I wouldn't randomly pick out the prayer issue and say "Let's have a vote on this." But when there is great unrest, don't people oftentimes have votes, when they can't agree? Of course, if the HOA was willing to make a unilateral decision on the prayers, then no vote needed either, but Molly didn't say what she'd do if faced with this decision. If she/the board decided there would be no prayers, period, then I'd have no problem with that either. She/they are the boss in that situation. (Except, according to the first responses here, Molly and her board would then be faced with lawsuits and fee-witholding.) Like I said, given that I have a free choice not to pray or listen, I don't get upset about it. I save that for situations where choices are taken away, like when women's abortions are stalled by making them see different doctors until they are past the date where you can have one.

I'm sorry you feel I'm angry. I've taken great pains in the thread to explain in detail and in a polite manner why I feel the way I do, and addressed whatever has been brought up with me in a calm manner. I've tried to be as straightforward as possible in my responses, to stick to the topic at hand, be non-combative, flexible as I can be while holding an opinion contrary to the thread majority, and avoid the disrespectful eyeroll icon, which I try hard to avoid anyway, as no one likes eyes rolled at them. I have also had someone say a negative thing about my personality and I addressed that politely too, considering if she might be right. I don't really know what else I can do. I'm not Perfect Pricescoper!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Instead of bothering to believe in stuff without evidence I just go with what I know.
When I die I'm going to .................

Diamond heaven

 

[Jambalaya]

Instead of bothering to believe in stuff without evidence I just go with what I know.
When I die I'm going to .................

Diamond heaven

To quote Kenicky in a song from Grease, "Keep talking, oh keep talking!"

 

[MollyMalone]

I live in an over 55 HOA community. They have monthly meetings that start with a prayer. I am uncomfortable with the end of it because it is a Christian prayer. The HOA is in Ca and consists of over 1000 homes. That is a lot of residents and I doubt that all are Christians. I am now on an advisory board and need to attend most meetings. Granted, a small percentage of residents attend these meetings but I wonder if someone could file a suit against the HOA. Does anyone know what the law is?

Does the HOA's attorney regularly attend these monthly homeowners meetings? I imagine not because s/he would bill the HOA for the time spent there, and perhaps travel time to-from as well, and that would quickly add up to a tidy sum. (Fiscal considerations are why our HOA attorney is always at the general Annual Meeting, but has been attending board meetings only when I ask him to be there; since I'm a lawyer, albeit in a different field, I can often act as an cost-saving conduit for board members' and owners' queries & his responses, but sometimes it really is more efficiently productive and beneficial for everyone if he meets with all of us board members face-to-face.)

My suggestion would be that you call the law office and ask him/her what they know about any such litigation there in CA. The reality is that anyone can file a lawsuit about anything -- assuming they can pay the filing fee, they won't be turned away from the courthouse door. But the HOA's goal should be to (a) minimize the likelihood of getting sued & the costs of defending against litigation, and (b) conduct itself so that if a lawsuit is filed, it will be dismissed early on. I assume there is "errors and omission" liability insurance coverage for the officers and directors & also the kind of other insurance policies that any similar HOA would have. But as with car insurance, the premiums -- and companies' willingness to underwrite the policies -- are affected by the history of claims.

The federal and state constitutions are not your HOA's only concern. HOAs fall within the ambit of various statutes, such as the federal Fair Housing Act and whatever anti-discrimination laws that the California and your local legislatures have enacted. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that your concerned query might prompt the HOA attorney to advise, purely as a legal matter, the officers and directors that the public prayers should no longer be a feature of these monthly meetings for all homeowners (or any other HOA meeting). It would be rash of your HOA officers-directors to ignore legal counsel.

The big advantage I see to posing the question of the lawyer (in addition to the fact that s/he should be more savvy about CA HOA case law and statutes than us Internet strangers) is that you'd only have to consider what you yourself might do (such as suggesting that the prayer convocation take place elsewhere before the meetings' start time, which is what I think should be happening) -- or not do -- only if the lawyer assures you that your concern re litigation is unfounded.

 

[MollyMalone]

P.S. Nonie, while you are speaking with the HOA attorney, be sure to get clarification as to whether you might be considered one of the HOA directors. Doesn't sound as if being a member of the smaller advisory board would render you subject to liability, but you and the others in your position should get that nailed down. And I'm hoping that your HOA officers and directors know about the pitfalls of inadequate insurance protection outlined in this article written by a California HOA insurance broker -- scary stuff!
http://www.hoainsurance.com/2012/directors-and-officers-insurance-liability-threatens-association-boards/

 

[missy]

Lawsuits were talked about in quite a few posts near the beginning of the thread, Maria. I have conceded the point about HOAs not being the obvious place for prayers and agreed that it's hard to refute that argument, and I've agreed with much that has been said, so I don't really agree that I've been digging my heels in. .

Jambalaya I agree with Maria and probably a few others reading this thread that yes you sure have been digging your heels in and repeating yourself. A lot. Reread your posts if you don't think so.

I do have an opinion that there are bigger things to worry about in terms of discrimination than HOA prayers, and I've maintained that part of my opinion.

What does that have to do with the price of gasoline? Meaning you are muddying the situation as no one is talking about the "bigger" issues like world hunger, war or poverty. We are talking about NonMarie's HOA meeting and examples that might relate to it. You keep interjecting with the fact there are bigger issues. Yeah, there sure are, and so what does that have to do with this specific issue? We could say that to anyone who is facing any issue. But that still doesn't mean a thing when discussing this specific issue.

I don't think that holding an opinion, even in the face of great disagreement, adequately qualifies as digging your heels in, especially when you have written around the subject at great length, considered many views and conceded many points at various points in the discussion.

Yes and you have repeatedly let us know your opinion. You have been successful in that mission but I wonder why you had to keep repeating that opinion over and over and over and over. I think that is where some PSers have felt you were angry because of the constant and strong responses where it almost felt like you were trying to strong arm some of us who did not agree. JMO of course. And for the record I am not angry at all with you or anyone here. I enjoy a good debate but honestly the sheer repetition of your responses did feel like you were trying to force it down our throats. Again not angry in any way shape or form just stating how your posts made me (and perhaps others) feel.

Lawsuits, threats to withold fees, and refusals to consider compromise seem pretty angry responses to me. Then, the thread deteriorated into jerking off, Satan, maggots, poop, and the opinion that there is nothing after, which is fine, but it was expressed aggressively with images of maggots and bacteria instead of saying politely "I don't believe in an afterlife." We have a huge lurker pool. Someone with terminal disease could be reading this thread and I'm not sure that the graphic descriptions of what happens to your body are helpful for someone in that situation. I am not complaining about any of this in the slightest - I am mentioning it only to answer your question to me that you asked. You wanted to know where the anger was. My answer to your question is, it's in those things I just described. I am not angry but I am surprised at the strength of feeling shown in the things I have described in this paragraph.

I think I addressed most of this already so won't repeat myself. Except to say we cannot worry with each thread and reply thinking of the lurker pool and what they are going through. I don't think someone's opinion would be that upsetting to someone who has a strong belief either way. And if so perhaps questioning their beliefs is a good thing don't you think?

You say I'm the angry one but I thought I was saying the opposite: That back when I was an atheist, the prayers of others never bothered me and I was happy to let others have them, even if I privately thought they were a bit silly.

Again that is your opinion. It doesn't bother *you*. As you can see it does bother many and that is why it is a topic of contention. Honestly Jambalaya we know it doesn't bother you because you have stated that fact probably a dozen times in this one thread. As someone already pointed out (thank you Yenny) that is because you are part of a majority and have never really felt that type of religious discrimination. But we get it. Doesn't bother you if others pray at public places where you have to listen to it. Point noted.

You also say that a person with HOA experience tells me that a vote would be divisive and pointless but that I dug my heels in. I said this in response to her advice: "I agree that a vote would be difficult, but people are so incredibly angry and upset about the idea of these HOA prayers (lawsuits, threats to withold fees, any compromise out of the question) that the only way to settle the matter would be a vote." (I should have said some people are incredibly angry.)

No one was talking about suing. NonMarie was/is concerned about the possibility she might be liable if someone else theoretically sued the HOA for praying at the meetings. That was where the lawsuit was brought up. And as for the other potential options they were mentioned during the conversation as things that could be done. Not that should be done.

The vote idea was only due to the (theoretical) situation of unrest, not because it's always a good thing to have votes for everything. I saw her point immediately and said I agreed. I wouldn't randomly pick out the prayer issue and say "Let's have a vote on this." But when there is great unrest, don't people oftentimes have votes, when they can't agree? Of course, if the HOA was willing to make a unilateral decision on the prayers, then no vote needed either, but Molly didn't say what she'd do if faced with this decision. If she/the board decided there would be no prayers, period, then I'd have no problem with that either. She/they are the boss in that situation. (Except, according to the first responses here, Molly and her board would then be faced with lawsuits and fee-witholding.) Like I said, given that I have a free choice not to pray or listen, I don't get upset about it. I save that for situations where choices are taken away, like when women's abortions are stalled by making them see different doctors until they are past the date where you can have one.

LOL Jambalaya, prayer has no place at an HOA meeting period. No need to take a vote. No prayer at HOA majority vote does NOT matter. Got it? If the majority of people don't want to take refugees into their country what would you say about that? I think examples of majority rules in some (many) cases is not a good one. Just because the majority thinks an idea is good doesn't always and should not always matter. Sometimes the "right" thing should matter more. Yanno?

I'm sorry you feel I'm angry. I've taken great pains in the thread to explain in detail and in a polite manner why I feel the way I do, and addressed whatever has been brought up with me in a calm manner. I've tried to be as straightforward as possible in my responses, to stick to the topic at hand, be non-combative, flexible as I can be while holding an opinion contrary to the thread majority, and avoid the disrespectful eyeroll icon, which I try hard to avoid anyway, as no one likes eyes rolled at them. I have also had someone say a negative thing about my personality and I addressed that politely too, considering if she might be right. I don't really know what else I can do. I'm not Perfect Pricescoper!

No one is claiming to be perfect don't worry. And this is just an online forum so don't take what others say to heart unless it does help you in terms of introspection and examination. That is always a good thing IMO. And as you say we are none of us perfect and it is always interesting to see what others think and if we can learn from different points of view all the better. For the record I am spiritual and while not religious I respect those who are and as long as they don't try to shove their religious beliefs down my throat we are good.

 

[MarionC]

What was a simple discussion on whether an expression of a specific religion is appropriate in a HOA meeting has evolved into a
discussion of personal beliefs, which is off-topic.

My comment is not aimed at any one PSer, it's just an observation that proves discussions involving religion are a can of worms.

 

[missy]

What was a simple discussion on whether an expression of a specific religion is appropriate in a HOA meeting has evolved into a
discussion of personal beliefs, which is off-topic.

My comment is not aimed at any one PSer, it's just an observation that proves discussions involving religion are a can of worms.

Jimmianne, sure discussing topics such as religion can be and often is difficult but a challenge that is worth it IMO. If we cannot discuss different views on hot topics how can we learn what and why people think how they do? Is this discussion so awful? I don't think so. I think talking about challenging and potential divisive topics can help us learn and grow and that goes a long way towards understanding differences and also shows how we are really all very similar.

 

[AGBF]

What was a simple discussion on whether an expression of a specific religion is appropriate in a HOA meeting has evolved into a
discussion of personal beliefs, which is off-topic.

There is a quotation which I cannot recall verbatim. It may be, "All politics is (are) local". I think all beliefs are personal.

What is the use of having any discussion if we do not express our positions, which means expressing our opinions, which reflect our beliefs?

 

[CJ2008]

I've stayed out of this thread because...well, I don't know why exactly.

I would cringe at having to sit through prayers at any meeting - DH was going to see a therapist a little while back that he really liked and I was considering going to him except that DH mentioned the therapist would mention God here and there. That was a real turn off for me, even though I realized I could have politely asked him if he could refrain from making those references, that they make me uncomfortable.

That said, I see nothing horrible about this discussion. Yeah, some wise cracks, etc., but a pretty civil discussion overall. I think it's wonderful for people of such different beliefs to have a platform through which to hear other opinions. It's probably the *only* place where these kinds of discussions can and do take place for most people and I think it should be cherished. And yes, the discussion will get derailed once in a while. When the issues are sensitive, that's going to happen. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying again.

 

[momhappy]

What was a simple discussion on whether an expression of a specific religion is appropriate in a HOA meeting has evolved into a
discussion of personal beliefs, which is off-topic.

My comment is not aimed at any one PSer, it's just an observation that proves discussions involving religion are a can of worms.

I agree and that's why I've pretty much stayed out of this discussion. It's not that it went horribly wrong, but it just goes to show how sensitive the subject matter can be and this just isn't the right platform for religious discussions IMO - not that there was anything wrong with OPs original question - I think her original question was valid and could have been answered without dipping too much into religion (focusing on the legal aspect, etc.).