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HOA meeting and prayer that ends with "in Jesus' name"

NonieMarie

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ruby59|1454273389|3984764 said:
Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.
 

Jambalaya

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Maria, I'll try to explain further. In a situation such as the HOA, majority rule would usually be applied. Kenny is saying that the HOA prayers are so terrible that one of the basic tenets of democracy must be abandoned and everyone who wants the prayers is ignored, no matter how strong the majority. If someone was arguing in court their right to stop the prayers despite the wishes of many others to the contrary, the defense would be that the prayers cause them to feel very bad - perhaps intolerably left-out, marginalized, etc. In other words, suffering so intense that the customary, democratic way of dealing with these things - majority rule - should be suspended. I don't see how a few opening prayers can cause suffering so intense that democracy should be abandoned and the minority's wishes should be accommodated in this particular instance. Note that I am still talking about majority rule in the context of the HOA. I am well aware that there are limits in the wider world.

As to those sexy images you talked about, the two situations are not apples to apples. The prayers happen for a few minutes once a month. You are not surrounded by audio prayers all day, every day at work, like you are with the images. You have a choice, for those few minutes per month, not to listen to those prayers. You can put headphones on for a few minutes with no ill-effects. If you went around your work with a blindfold on in order not to see the images, then you would bump into things and hurt yourself, so not seeing the images is not an option. And the other engineers don't put them up once a month for a few minutes. They are there all the time. Sexy images are also objectifying the women in the office, reducing them and making fun of them, but the prayers do not objectify atheists or make fun of them. The images feature women. The prayers don't feature atheists. For these reasons, I don't think some opening prayers and sexy images of women in the workplace are on the same level of hostility, at all.
 

Maria D

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monarch64|1454277541|3984792 said:
Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it. :nono: :Up_to_something:

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal!

Wanna hear how it ended? Too late, I'm telling you anyway, haha!

So I was friends with two of the guys (they were young like me; we were all hired the same year) and they were counseling me to NOT go to HR with it, I would just look like a whiner. So true! An admin (female, in her 30s) heard us talking about it and was surprised. No one but engineers and technicians, who up until that time had always been male, had reason to go into this lab so she had never seen it. So we showed her, and feminist that was, she was as put-off as I was. She also knew that a few years back employees had been told they had to take down the pin-up girly calendars (these came courtesy of vendors of engineering products) in their cubicles after someone else had complained. Apparently, most of them ended up in this lab. We weren't offended because we were prudes, or didn't like men, or couldn't appreciate the beauty of a well endowed curvaceous woman. We were offended because it implies: this is a place for (certain types of) guys; you don't belong here.

Her solution was to adorn her own cubicle with these paper cutouts that she called "dick-o-rations." Like this picture, but penises instead of bats or ghosts. We all had a good laugh but management found out and made everything come down.

_36290.jpg
 

Jambalaya

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NonieMarie|1454278348|3984796 said:
ruby59|1454273389|3984764 said:
Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.


The way I read the bolded is that it was aimed at the subject of the thread - people who wanted to bring a lawsuit and withold payment of fees in order to stop the few minutes of prayers.

It's awful that Yenny's children are not given the opportunity to talk about Hannukah or allowed to make menorahs as their decorations. There should be a holiday party that embraces all religions represented in the class, or else no religion at all at the party. For the latter, there are plenty of seasonal themes - robins, snowflakes, snow scenes, log fires, party food, birds and animals in their winter coats.
 

monarch64

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:lol: I like your co-worker's style! "Dick-orations." Gonna have to remember that one.
 

Maria D

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Jambalaya|1454278514|3984797 said:
Maria, I'll try to explain further. In a situation such as the HOA, majority rule would usually be applied. Kenny is saying that the HOA prayers are so terrible that one of the basic tenets of democracy must be abandoned and everyone who wants the prayers is ignored, no matter how strong the majority. If someone was arguing in court their right to stop the prayers despite the wishes of many others to the contrary, the defense would be that the prayers cause them to feel very bad - perhaps intolerably left-out, marginalized, etc. In other words, suffering so intense that the customary, democratic way of dealing with these things - majority rule - should be suspended. I don't see how a few opening prayers can cause suffering so intense that democracy should be abandoned and the minority's wishes should be accommodated in this particular instance. Note that I am still talking about majority rule in the context of the HOA. I am well aware that there are limits in the wider world.

As to those sexy images you talked about, the two situations are not apples to apples. The prayers happen for a few minutes once a month. You are not surrounded by audio prayers all day, every day at work, like you are with the images. You have a choice, for those few minutes per month, not to listen to those prayers. You can put headphones on for a few minutes with no ill-effects. If you went around your work with a blindfold on in order not to see the images, then you would bump into things and hurt yourself, so not seeing the images is not an option. And the other engineers don't put them up once a month for a few minutes. They are there all the time. Sexy images are also objectifying the women in the office, reducing them and making fun of them, but the prayers do not objectify atheists or make fun of them. The images feature women. The prayers don't feature atheists. For these reasons, I don't think some opening prayers and sexy images of women in the workplace are on the same level of hostility, at all.

It's not a question of being hostile, it's a question of appropriateness. You may think it's not apples to apples today, in 2016, but believe me in the early '80s in a male dominated field it was ABSOLUTELY apples to apples. This was as NORMAL to them as you see this HOA prayer practice.

I find it kind of ridiculous that you are likening the simple request to not start a meeting that has absolutely nothing to do with religion with prayer to the abandonment of democracy.

edited to add: re-reading that sentence above, I now understand why my English teachers wrote "ROS" all over my papers! (run-on-sentence)
 

ruby59

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Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.
______________________________________________

Kids who cannot stand it if their teacher mentions something. What about teaching them tolerance, so they do not need safe rooms.
 

Jambalaya

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monarch64|1454277541|3984792 said:
Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it. :nono: :Up_to_something:

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal![/quote]

But I said that if more people wanted prayers than not, I would happily sit through Muslim prayers or prayers from any other kind of religion, and if I was atheist or agnostic again, I would sit through all prayers while I caught up on paying my bills or wrote my shopping list. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't take any prayers of any religion away in this example, because a few brief opening prayers once a month have a limited ability to cause harm, so the majority should decide. I agree with all religions in the room being represented in this instance, if requested, and if the majority wanted Muslim prayers only then Muslim prayers only it would be. If atheists wanted to wear 666 t-shirts and wear earplugs during the prayers, so be it. if the majority wanted only Zoroastrian prayers, fine. I'm not saying that everyone should go along with what's "normal", as you said above. :(sad It's just that I thought Kenny's solution of banning the prayers outright with no democratic vote was too draconian.
 

Amber St. Clare

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Jambalaya|1454279310|3984801 said:
NonieMarie|1454278348|3984796 said:
ruby59|1454273389|3984764 said:
Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.


The way I read the bolded is that it was aimed at the subject of the thread - people who wanted to bring a lawsuit and withold payment of fees in order to stop the few minutes of prayers.

It's awful that Yenny's children are not given the opportunity to talk about Hannukah or allowed to make menorahs as their decorations. There should be a holiday party that embraces all religions represented in the class, or else no religion at all at the party. For the latter, there are plenty of seasonal themes - robins, snowflakes, snow scenes, log fires, party food, birds and animals in their winter coats.

I am the originator of that particular post and it was induced by the subject of the thread itself. It was in NO WAY directed to Yenny or her children, I believe it was actually on page 2 BEFORE Yenny's post. And I stand by it. everything today is a lawsuit in waiting.
 

packrat

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dickorations bhahahahahahaha I like her style.

I'd've wanted to find pics of sexy guys to hang up so I could have something nice to look at during the day too.
 

NonieMarie

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ruby59|1454279842|3984807 said:
Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.
______________________________________________

Kids who cannot stand it if their teacher mentions something. What about teaching them tolerance, so they do not need safe rooms.

Tolerance goes both ways.
 

katharath

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ruby59|1454279842|3984807 said:
Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.
______________________________________________

Kids who cannot stand it if their teacher mentions something. What about teaching them tolerance, so they do not need safe rooms.


Please. You have no idea of what the circumstances were. In this case it was an extremely religious, Christian teacher, who repeatedly read books and showed cartoon movies about Jesus, the crucifixion, and the resurrection to a class of 3rd graders, in a PUBLIC school.

And for the record, my kids are two of the best behaved in their school. They are absolutely taught tolerance, but they're taught that their beliefs deserve to be respected too. They are smart kids and they know that it is ILLEGAL to do what that teacher did - but I guess I'm supposed to teach them to like it?? No thanks. ;-)
 

NonieMarie

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katharath|1454280667|3984813 said:
ruby59|1454279842|3984807 said:
Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.
______________________________________________

Kids who cannot stand it if their teacher mentions something. What about teaching them tolerance, so they do not need safe rooms.


Please. You have no idea of what the circumstances were. In this case it was an extremely religious, Christian teacher, who repeatedly read books and showed cartoon movies about Jesus, the crucifixion, and the resurrection to a class of 3rd graders, in a PUBLIC school.

And for the record, my kids are two of the best behaved in their school. They are absolutely taught tolerance, but they're taught that their beliefs deserve to be respected too. They are smart kids and they know that it is ILLEGAL to do what that teacher did - but I guess I'm supposed to teach them to like it?? No thanks. ;-)

:appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl:
 

missy

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Jambalaya|1454275145|3984781 said:
Missy wrote (quoting here so as not to get too messy): Some however can empathize better than others to be sure and are more sensitive that way.

I consider myself to be very empathetic to those who are suffering. I have more longterm patience than anyone I know with people who are bereaved. Very few people will accept or tolerate bereavement that goes for longer than six months max, let alone the person feeling sad on special days years later. And speaking of being sensitive, I don't know anyone else who notes down the date of a friend's bereavement in order to send them a card or be aware of their emotions when that time of year rolls round. In addition, I have seen people go through real suffering, like giving birth in a long labor to a baby that is full-term yet dead before the birth began.

Therefore, I do not consider having to listen to a few brief invocation prayers to cause suffering so intense that majority rule must be suspended.



Jambalaya, from my POV respectfully you are sensitive/show empathy to what you pick and choose and not across the board. That is how I see it. And I don't mean it in a mean way. Just stating my observation.


katharath said:
missy|1454274078|3984770 said:
Ellen, I like you and appreciate your posts and have no wish to be disrespectful of you or your beliefs. I hope you realize that and just because I don't share the same religious beliefs as you it doesn't make me like you any less and I hope vice versa. It's just that I don't believe in "J" and don't think he is our savior and that doesn't make me or anybody else with different beliefs or non beliefs for that matter a bad or a good person. Many other things make someone a bad or good person and believing in a specific religion is not one of the characteristics that does.

Missy, you sure said that a lot better than I ever could have. I really admire your style of posting, maybe someday I'll learn to be as thoughtful and tactful as you are!! :)

As a parent who is raising agnostic/possibly full on atheist children (my 11 year old cannot stand it when his teachers mention religion in a personal way at school, which happens quite a lot, actually!), I also get very irritated at the presumption that everyone believes the same thing, and if we don't, we are somehow the ones lacking...

Katharath, thank you. I meant every word. I also enjoy your posts and think they are very thoughtful and kind.


NonieMarie said:
ruby59|1454273389|3984764 said:
Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

Did you not read Yenny's post? Would you put her and her children in that group of "some people".
Yenny, thank you for sharing and putting a face on this discussion. My point in bringing up this topic was the idea of exclusion. The prayer excludes anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Big Kahuna.

Exactly. ::)

Jambalaya said:
monarch64|1454277541|3984792 said:
Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it. :nono: :Up_to_something:

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal![/quote]

But I said that if more people wanted prayers than not, I would happily sit through Muslim prayers or prayers from any other kind of religion, and if I was atheist or agnostic again, I would sit through all prayers while I caught up on paying my bills or wrote my shopping list. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't take any prayers of any religion away in this example, because a few brief opening prayers once a month have a limited ability to cause harm, so the majority should decide. I agree with all religions in the room being represented in this instance, if requested, and if the majority wanted Muslim prayers only then Muslim prayers only it would be. If atheists wanted to wear 666 t-shirts and wear earplugs during the prayers, so be it. if the majority wanted only Zoroastrian prayers, fine. I'm not saying that everyone should go along with what's "normal", as you said above. :(sad It's just that I thought Kenny's solution of banning the prayers outright with no democratic vote was too draconian.

Jambalaya, we are not talking about you. Great that you would do it. But this is not about you. It's about all those who do feel excluded, who are in the minority and who feel somehow less than because of their beliefs or non beliefs. And please remember this is not a religious meeting hall. It is an HOA meeting place.
 

Jambalaya

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Maria D|1454279575|3984805 said:
Jambalaya|1454278514|3984797 said:
Maria, I'll try to explain further. In a situation such as the HOA, majority rule would usually be applied. Kenny is saying that the HOA prayers are so terrible that one of the basic tenets of democracy must be abandoned and everyone who wants the prayers is ignored, no matter how strong the majority. If someone was arguing in court their right to stop the prayers despite the wishes of many others to the contrary, the defense would be that the prayers cause them to feel very bad - perhaps intolerably left-out, marginalized, etc. In other words, suffering so intense that the customary, democratic way of dealing with these things - majority rule - should be suspended. I don't see how a few opening prayers can cause suffering so intense that democracy should be abandoned and the minority's wishes should be accommodated in this particular instance. Note that I am still talking about majority rule in the context of the HOA. I am well aware that there are limits in the wider world.

As to those sexy images you talked about, the two situations are not apples to apples. The prayers happen for a few minutes once a month. You are not surrounded by audio prayers all day, every day at work, like you are with the images. You have a choice, for those few minutes per month, not to listen to those prayers. You can put headphones on for a few minutes with no ill-effects. If you went around your work with a blindfold on in order not to see the images, then you would bump into things and hurt yourself, so not seeing the images is not an option. And the other engineers don't put them up once a month for a few minutes. They are there all the time. Sexy images are also objectifying the women in the office, reducing them and making fun of them, but the prayers do not objectify atheists or make fun of them. The images feature women. The prayers don't feature atheists. For these reasons, I don't think some opening prayers and sexy images of women in the workplace are on the same level of hostility, at all.

It's not a question of being hostile, it's a question of appropriateness. You may think it's not apples to apples today, in 2016, but believe me in the early '80s in a male dominated field it was ABSOLUTELY apples to apples. This was as NORMAL to them as you see this HOA prayer practice.

I find it kind of ridiculous that you are likening the simple request to not start a meeting that has absolutely nothing to do with religion with prayer to the abandonment of democracy.

edited to add: re-reading that sentence above, I now understand why my English teachers wrote "ROS" all over my papers! (run-on-sentence)

Maria, Kenny was arguing strongly that the democratic process of majority rule to decide this question should be abandoned. He thinks there should be no vote about it. That's too draconian for me in this HOA example. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned abandoning democracy/democratic process.

I believe you about the workplace in the eighties, and I said that the images are a much more hostile thing than the HOA prayers for the following reasons: You have to see the pictures all the time but the prayers happen for a few minutes once a month. You are sitting for those few minutes and can safely cover your ears in order not to hear the prayers, but you cannot cover your eyes all day at work. The images feature, objectify and make fun of women, but the prayers do not feature, objectify, or make fun of atheists. For these reasons, sexy images at work are not comparable to the HOA prayers. The images are much worse, for the reasons I mentioned.
 

monarch64

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Jambalaya|1454280299|3984809 said:
monarch64|1454277541|3984792 said:
Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it. :nono: :Up_to_something:

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal![/quote]

But I said that if more people wanted prayers than not, I would happily sit through Muslim prayers or prayers from any other kind of religion, and if I was atheist or agnostic again, I would sit through all prayers while I caught up on paying my bills or wrote my shopping list. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't take any prayers of any religion away in this example, because a few brief opening prayers once a month have a limited ability to cause harm, so the majority should decide. I agree with all religions in the room being represented in this instance, if requested, and if the majority wanted Muslim prayers only then Muslim prayers only it would be. If atheists wanted to wear 666 t-shirts and wear earplugs during the prayers, so be it. if the majority wanted only Zoroastrian prayers, fine. I'm not saying that everyone should go along with what's "normal", as you said above. :(sad It's just that I thought Kenny's solution of banning the prayers outright with no democratic vote was too draconian.

Hmm. Well, I don't disagree with you really, BUT. I am fine with sitting through whatever type of prayers/invocations/stuff when it is for something other than a public meeting or a meeting not based on religious beliefs. I guess I don't understand why an HOA meeting has to start with a prayer. Like, we're making rules about how we want the neighborhood to run, is that something we need all that much strength for? I say pass around the coffee or Gatorade instead. Sheesh.

I know what you mean about just going along with and/or tolerating it, or tuning it out. I get it. In many cases that is what typically happens, but people who don't like it do have the right to disagree and make a stink about it. And that shouldn't surprise people who have just taken it for granted forever now that their way must be conceded to and that's just that. It is uncomfortable for others who do not expect to have to deal with religious activity and in those cases I think it's fair that a compromise is reached or the activity is removed altogether.
 

Ellen

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Missy, I appreciate your polite post. The only thing is, I never (as far as I can consciously see) insinuated anyone who didn't believe the same as me is bad. Especially from the post you quoted (which I did not quote as it gets lengthy). I am truly scratching my head. While I knew posting in here would be an uphill battle, when I get a post from someone who actually likes me, and they aren't getting what I am saying either, it's definitely time to exit left.

Take care. :wavey:
 

packrat

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Can those who want to pray beforehand, meet a few minutes earlier and pray? That way nobody has to sit and listen to it if they don't want to.
 

Jambalaya

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Missy wrote: "And please remember this is not a religious meeting hall. It is an HOA meeting place." I have written more than once on this thread that I agree with that, and that it's a hard argument to refute. I am flexible and I am not really guided by any particular dogma in these matters, just common sense and principles applicable to the situation at hand. In this case, as I said, the fact that the HOA is not a religious place is hard to argue with and I am very open to the view that prayers should not happen there, for that reason. Equally, those prayers seem to be a well-liked custom in that community, so perhaps there should be a vote instead of just banning them, in order to be fair to all. There is more than one way to see it, in my opinion, as I was explaining to Kenny.

Also: "...from my POV respectfully you are sensitive/show empathy to what you pick and choose and not across the board. That is how I see it. And I don't mean it in a mean way. Just stating my observation."

Why do you think that? After all, one could say that you aren't being empathetic to the general community who does like the HOA prayers. I point this out not to call you un-empathetic, at all, but only to demonstrate that you cannot support both sides of an opposing argument - one usually does weigh up a situation and decide which side of the argument he or she agrees on. That is normal thought process.

Or did you mean that I pick and choose in a general sense? I do think that's unfair, but I'm trying to examine whether that criticism is correct. Well, maybe. Not many of us probably see ourselves as we really are. I wasn't aware of that trait in myself. I'm trying to think. I support feminism, gay marriage, gay rights, animal rights, children's rights, cancer research, bereaved and terminally ill people, refugees, and the equality of all religions, and I report crime where I see it instead of looking the other way. In the case of the HOA prayers, I support the majority vote. If the majority didn't want the prayers, fine. At this level, these kinds of things usually are decided by that democratic process.

I'm sure I'm not perfect. One thing I don't do is go in much for showing my feelings verbally, so I don't write many notes to people on PS about how wonderful or nice or fantastic I think they are, even if I do, because I'm uncomfortable with giving or receiving those sentiments. So perhaps I come across negatively in that way. That doesn't make much sense relative to your criticism, but I'm just casting about to think why you might think such a negative thing of me that I do not show empathy across the board and I am not sensitive across the board. Possibly it's because I miss some threads or don't post in all of the sensitive ones, maybe due to just being busy, and that comes across as gaps in who I do or don't feel sorry for. But you know, as they say, what you think of me isn't my biz. :wavey:
 

missy

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Ellen|1454281923|3984825 said:
Missy, I appreciate your polite post. The only thing is, I never (as far as I can consciously see) insinuated anyone who didn't believe the same as me is bad. Especially from the post you quoted (which I did not quote as it gets lengthy). I am truly scratching my head. While I knew posting in here would be an uphill battle, when I get a post from someone who actually likes me, and they aren't getting what I am saying either, it's definitely time to exit left.

Take care. :wavey:

Ellen, I'm sorry I made you think that. I never thought you thought people who don't believe in christianity are bad.

I was just trying to explain that if some people don't want to hear religious prayers at a public meeting, public schools, that does not make them bad. When it comes down to it believing in "J" or not believing in him or whatever one's religious or non religious beliefs are is not what makes someone good or bad. And it is not right (IMO) or fair to think it is OK to make others have to tolerate religious prayer at non religious meetings. For too long people in the minorities have had to do just that.

I am not doing a good job of explaining what I am trying to say because I am not feeling well but I didn't want to leave your post without saying that is not what I meant. I know you don't think someone who doesn't agree with you re religion is bad. My bad (haha get it) for making you think so.
 

Jambalaya

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monarch64|1454281195|3984822 said:
Jambalaya|1454280299|3984809 said:
monarch64|1454277541|3984792 said:
Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it. :nono: :Up_to_something:

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal![/quote]

But I said that if more people wanted prayers than not, I would happily sit through Muslim prayers or prayers from any other kind of religion, and if I was atheist or agnostic again, I would sit through all prayers while I caught up on paying my bills or wrote my shopping list. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't take any prayers of any religion away in this example, because a few brief opening prayers once a month have a limited ability to cause harm, so the majority should decide. I agree with all religions in the room being represented in this instance, if requested, and if the majority wanted Muslim prayers only then Muslim prayers only it would be. If atheists wanted to wear 666 t-shirts and wear earplugs during the prayers, so be it. if the majority wanted only Zoroastrian prayers, fine. I'm not saying that everyone should go along with what's "normal", as you said above. :(sad It's just that I thought Kenny's solution of banning the prayers outright with no democratic vote was too draconian.

Hmm. Well, I don't disagree with you really, BUT. I am fine with sitting through whatever type of prayers/invocations/stuff when it is for something other than a public meeting or a meeting not based on religious beliefs. I guess I don't understand why an HOA meeting has to start with a prayer. Like, we're making rules about how we want the neighborhood to run, is that something we need all that much strength for? I say pass around the coffee or Gatorade instead. Sheesh.

I know what you mean about just going along with and/or tolerating it, or tuning it out. I get it. In many cases that is what typically happens, but people who don't like it do have the right to disagree and make a stink about it. And that shouldn't surprise people who have just taken it for granted forever now that their way must be conceded to and that's just that. It is uncomfortable for others who do not expect to have to deal with religious activity and in those cases I think it's fair that a compromise is reached or the activity is removed altogether.


First bolded: Hahaaaa! I don't know though, all those debates about flower beds!

Second bolded - (btw I am trying to bold the entire para from where the bolded starts until the end, and it just won't do it.) I do agree, which is why the prayer issue should be put to a majority vote. There is also a strong case for the HOA not being a place of prayer. But realistically, if most people like the prayers, they're not going to turn round off their own backs and say, "Hey, we like these prayers but I think we'll just stop because this is an HOA meeting". Someone needs to propose a motion for and against the prayers. If the majority vote against them, so be it.

You also mentioned compromises. Numerous ones were suggested throughout this thread but some posters still didn't like that idea.
 

missy

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Jambalaya, I don't know you. I just know what you post here and I stand by my perspective re (some of) your posts. You come across as sympathetic and empathetic when you agree with an issue and when you don't you don't. You agree it is OK to pray at an HOA meeting even if others don't feel comfortable. How empathetic is that?

You are not better or worse than anyone else because of this but I just point out what I see. I am not going to go through all your posts because I have neither the energy nor desire to do so but I recall more than once reading your posts and thinking that is not very tolerant. I remember when a discussion about immigrants came up you called some people stupid or something like that (sorry I cannot remember the exact word but I remember the feeling it invoked) and that was just OTT IMO. Insensitive at best. Now I am not saying you are insensitive and perhaps you got a little carried away as we all do from time to time.

Our posts don't define who we are but I think can go a long way in showing what we think and how we conduct our lives but only people who know us IRL probably can really know who we are.

So let's just agree to disagree and move on because we are different people and think and behave differently and that's OK. Neither of us have to change for the other nor have to agree with the other.
 

Maria D

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Jambalaya|1454280940|3984820 said:
Maria, Kenny was arguing strongly that the democratic process of majority rule to decide this question should be abandoned. He thinks there should be no vote about it. That's too draconian for me in this HOA example. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned abandoning democracy/democratic process.

I believe you about the workplace in the eighties, and I said that the images are a much more hostile thing than the HOA prayers for the following reasons: You have to see the pictures all the time but the prayers happen for a few minutes once a month. You are sitting for those few minutes and can safely cover your ears in order not to hear the prayers, but you cannot cover your eyes all day at work. The images feature, objectify and make fun of women, but the prayers do not feature, objectify, or make fun of atheists. For these reasons, sexy images at work are not comparable to the HOA prayers. The images are much worse, for the reasons I mentioned.


I was asking the engineers to take pictures down without voting on it. For good reason, I was way outnumbered and would have lost the vote! You may think that having girly pin-ups in the workplace is just plain wrong, but they didn't think so. All the things you are saying that people who don't want to hear the prayers should do, the older guys were telling me. I should focus on the task at hand in front of me and not pay attention to the pictures on the walls behind and to the side of me. As an engineer, I don't have to spend all day in the lab but the technicians do, and they enjoy the pictures. It's tradition. The pictures have been there for years and aren't hurting you; they have nothing to do with you. You're just one of those feminists who are offended by every little thing. Go ahead and put up pictures of guys if you want, we don't care.

You seem to think that only people of a different religion, or atheists, could possibly be put off by an HOA meeting starting with prayer. I know plenty of deeply religious people for whom the separation of church and secular matters is extremely important. And your suggestion of including even more religions is silly. Can you imagine? We can't talk about renewing the contract with the landscapers until we pray to jesus, allah, mother earth, zeus, spaghetti monster...what else you got?
 

Jambalaya

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packrat|1454282210|3984828 said:
Can those who want to pray beforehand, meet a few minutes earlier and pray? That way nobody has to sit and listen to it if they don't want to.

That is an excellent compromise, IMO.
 

Maria D

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packrat|1454282210|3984828 said:
Can those who want to pray beforehand, meet a few minutes earlier and pray? That way nobody has to sit and listen to it if they don't want to.

perfect!
 

Tacori E-ring

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As someone who is a religious minority, I hate the "tolerance goes both ways" argument. I actually don't know if I have ever heard a majority voice saying that. It is impossible to really know what being in the minority is until you have experienced it. If I was knowingly walking into a religious event, then of course, have at it. I would be shocked to hear a religious prayer (any religion) at a HOA meeting. Bottom line is that is inappropriate. I don't believe the minority POV should have to conform to the majority. I believe in being inclusive and comfortable for ALL the residents participating.
 

Jambalaya

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missy|1454283016|3984837 said:
Jambalaya, I don't know you. I just know what you post here and I stand by my perspective re (some of) your posts. You come across as sympathetic and empathetic when you agree with an issue and when you don't you don't. You agree it is OK to pray at an HOA meeting even if others don't feel comfortable. How empathetic is that?

You are not better or worse than anyone else because of this but I just point out what I see. I am not going to go through all your posts because I have neither the energy nor desire to do so but I recall more than once reading your posts and thinking that is not very tolerant. I remember when a discussion about immigrants came up you called some people stupid or something like that (sorry I cannot remember the exact word but I remember the feeling it invoked) and that was just OTT IMO. Insensitive at best. Now I am not saying you are insensitive and perhaps you got a little carried away as we all do from time to time.

Our posts don't define who we are but I think can go a long way in showing what we think and how we conduct our lives but only people who know us IRL probably can really know who we are.

So let's just agree to disagree and move on because we are different people and think and behave differently and that's OK. Neither of us have to change for the other nor have to agree with the other.

People in that discussion were being very intolerant of those poor refugees, and of the threat they may or may not pose, and I was sticking up for their rights. I didn't call anyone stupid. Also, I see PS as a fun place, not a political meeting, so perhaps I am not as careful in my posts as I would be, say, when speaking at work.

Anyway, as I said, what you think of me isn't my business.

You said you're feeling unwell. Hope you feel better soon! :wavey:
 

missy

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Tacori E-ring|1454283402|3984843 said:
As someone who is a religious minority, I hate the "tolerance goes both ways" argument. I actually don't know if I have ever heard a majority voice saying that. It is impossible to really know what being in the minority is until you have experienced it. If I was knowingly walking into a religious event, then of course, have at it. I would be shocked to hear a religious prayer (any religion) at a HOA meeting. Bottom line is that is inappropriate. I don't believe the minority POV should have to conform to the majority. I believe in being inclusive and comfortable for ALL the residents participating.

Exactly. I agree with your entire post Tacori.
 

Jambalaya

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Maria: "You seem to think that only people of a different religion, or atheists, could possibly be put off by an HOA meeting starting with prayer. I know plenty of deeply religious people for whom the separation of church and secular matters is extremely important."

I didn't think of that. Well, everyone would get the chance to express themselves in the vote.

And your suggestion of including even more religions is silly.

I didn't mean including all or any religions. I meant including all that were represented in the room and that had requested prayers. I think that's inclusive, not silly.

In general, I'm still of the opinion that opening prayers are in all likelihood not as harmful as sexual objectification at work in the form of those images, and also not as harmful as slavery and lack of emancipation for women and all the other things brought up here. I agree that prayers probably don't belong in an HOA but I still think there are much more serious things to fight for. It's a matter of degree, and also you have to apply some prioritization or you'll just be fighting all the time and treating all human-rights transgressions the same, whether major or minor.
 

Matata

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Jambalaya|1454285424|3984866 said:
It's a matter of degree, and also you have to apply some prioritization or you'll just be fighting all the time and treating all human-rights transgressions the same, whether major or minor.

Link to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. IMHO all human rights transgressions should be fought with equal intensity and commitment. There are no minor infractions of human rights.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
 
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