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The 294th mass shooting this year in the U.S.

Rhapsody

Shiny_Rock
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purplesparklies|1444155787|3935443 said:
Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

I think that guns in the hands of the right people could help in situations of mass shootings. People need to understand and acknowledge their abilities/inabilities with their weapon. The average person would likely do more harm than good as it is not going to be easy to quickly and accurately assess a situation and respond effectively while in the midst of those chaotic, stress filled and adrenaline charged moments. One also needs to be willing to accept the consequences and legal ramifications of acting. I could exercise my right to concealed carry but I choose not to as I recognize my limitations. The only reason I have my concealed carry is for safety leaving work at night. I teach fitness classes and exit into a dark and largely empty parking lot after evening classes.

I do, however, think there is an issue with large areas being pistol free zones. That makes is very easy for those who wish to perpetrate a crime to know they have little risk of being stopped. The possibility of someone else being able to take them out can be a powerful motivator to reconsider. Fear can be a healthy thing.

But what happens when there's multiple people who are armed and trying to "do the right thing"? It's just going to cause chaos. People will be shooting from all directions and no one will know what's going on. And the likelihood that anyone other than a professional would have the training to handle that and not do more harm than good is pretty slim. We all want to think about what would happen in the best case scenario if there was an armed "good guy" there, but we also need to really strongly think about whether the best case scenario is the most likely one or just what we hope would happen.

I sat through the news of both the Columbine and Aurora shootings just hoping no one I knew got hurt, glued to the radio and TV, but never once did I think that things would have been better if yet another person had had a gun in that situation because I assure you things were g*dd*mm crazy enough already
 

Karl_K

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Rhapsody|1444184405|3935638 said:
But what happens when there's multiple people who are armed and trying to "do the right thing"? It's just going to cause chaos. People will be shooting from all directions and no one will know what's going on. And the likelihood that anyone other than a professional would have the training to handle that and not do more harm than good is pretty slim. We all want to think about what would happen in the best case scenario if there was an armed "good guy" there, but we also need to really strongly think about whether the best case scenario is the most likely one or just what we hope would happen.
Heard about the school shooting in ND a few years back?
Went like this:
man pulls out gun on the school playground shouting he was going to kill everyone.
Bang
man dead, shot by a parent.
Police arrive and do paperwork.
Zero media coverage outside the local area.
 

GlamMosher

Shiny_Rock
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Karl_K|1444185687|3935642 said:
Heard about the school shooting in ND a few years back?
Went like this:
man pulls out gun on the school playground shouting he was going to kill everyone.
Bang
man dead, shot by a parent.
Police arrive and do paperwork.
Zero media coverage outside the local area.

And then another parent who had missed the first part walks around a corner, sees a parent shoot someone, draws his gun and shoots him!!

Bingo!

Let's just arm all of the gun totin' freaks and let them shoot the sh*t out of each other and then the world will be left with the ones without guns.

(I promised myself I would stay out of this one... :nono: )
 

packrat

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No, we'd be left w/guns. I can guarantee that. ;)) The idiots, those who look down the barrel etc, would hopefully be gone and you'd be left w/people like me and JD.

And the conclusion of that scenario, the other parent walking up and shooting the citizen shooter who shot the criminal shooter, no. That's not actually how it happened. Had it been, you'd'a heard allllllll about it, everywhere you looked b/c it would've been used against gun owners as yet another reason why we are "stupid". When guns are used by every day people to stop crimes from happening, that's not news. And d'ya know *why* that's not news? Cuz people who think we're stupid, such as some who post on these threads, don't want to hear about it b/c then they can pretend it "never" happens.

It's much easier to paint everyone w/the same broad stroke, I get it. For whatever reason, when it comes to firearms, many of us seem to forget the whole thing about not stereotyping and not believing one person sets the standard for a whole group. For some reason, it's acceptable to do that w/guns. (*coughandcopscough*)

We as a family are pretty well screwed and will never be able to catch a break. We listen to heavy metal, we are heavily tattooed, we enjoy guns and have several, and he's a cop. Oh and our next dog we're going back to the pit bull breed we love. :roll:

But guess what? We're not *******s/criminals/killers/mentally challenged, much as some would like to paint us as such.
 

GlamMosher

Shiny_Rock
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packrat|1444189577|3935655 said:
And the conclusion of that scenario, the other parent walking up and shooting the citizen shooter who shot the criminal shooter, no. That's not actually how it happened.

Erm no, you're right it didn't happen. I made it up. I was being facititous.

But it COULD happen, that was my point.

ETA - I'm not going to look at this thread anymore, so please don't be offended if I don't reply. I made the mistake of getting into gun arguments over Trayvon and promised myself not to get into it again!
 

Rhea

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Karl_K|1444185687|3935642 said:
Rhapsody|1444184405|3935638 said:
But what happens when there's multiple people who are armed and trying to "do the right thing"? It's just going to cause chaos. People will be shooting from all directions and no one will know what's going on. And the likelihood that anyone other than a professional would have the training to handle that and not do more harm than good is pretty slim. We all want to think about what would happen in the best case scenario if there was an armed "good guy" there, but we also need to really strongly think about whether the best case scenario is the most likely one or just what we hope would happen.
Heard about the school shooting in ND a few years back?
Went like this:
man pulls out gun on the school playground shouting he was going to kill everyone.
Bang
man dead, shot by a parent.
Police arrive and do paperwork.
Zero media coverage outside the local area.

How many times has this happened verus the amount of times that it's ended with lots of deaths? I get that there are good points, but what's wrong with restricting it so that guns are more strictly licensed? If both guns in your situation were legally obtained, the outcome would still be same. If they weren't legally obtained under stricter laws it may have been prevented in the first place.

No one, this Brit included, is saying ban everything right now. But tougher regulations do seem to be a necessity as the death toll keeps getting higher and higher and gun violence, including carrying unsafely to a child's playground, is the norm.

I say unsafely because if your gun is loaded and within reach of a child, as it must be to protect yourself, it is accessible to others including children and therefore unsafe. A child can undo a safety latch. A child can cock a gun. Let's revisit the stats on how many children kill children with guns in the US each year.
 

Laila619

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packrat|1444182289|3935630 said:
There have been instances of people stepping in and helping in situations or controlling a situation that is happening. Please don't act like that never happens.

And I don't think it's a "gun" problem. It's a human problem. A problem w/people's hearts and minds. You can have 50 million guns sitting there and they're never going to be used against a human except by another human, and if that is the case, there is a problem w/the *human*, not the *gun*.

Then it's seemingly a problem with only American humans, because other first world countries don't seem to have these problems.

My own personal theory is broken homes, lack of fathers, violent TV and video games, and permissive culture of do whatever makes you happy, screw right or wrong. Your personal happiness is the most important thing after all! But that's a whole other ball of wax.
 

AGBF

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packrat|1444189577|3935655 said:
We as a family are pretty well screwed and will never be able to catch a break. We listen to heavy metal, we are heavily tattooed, we enjoy guns and have several, and he's a cop. Oh and our next dog we're going back to the pit bull breed we love. :roll:

But guess what? We're not *******s/criminals/killers/mentally challenged, much as some would like to paint us as such.

I, also, have become a pit bull lover. But without too much of a threadjack, I have to say that I wish the breed were not used for fighting. And it is. Not only is it cruel to the dogs, but It turns some of the poor dogs aggressive from birth and, thus, puts them at risk. I wish the AKC would do here in the US what it did with Dobermans: breed the aggression out of the entire breed (not that every single American Doberman is now docile).

I was bitten on the face by my next door neighbor's one year old pit bull this year. Not out of malice. He got overstimulated playing with our huge Newfie, Griffin, for whom he was a great playmate/match. He was so excited to see me that he bit me. We couldn't let the boys play together anymore after that and the puppy had to have a trainer, but he was a honey. Just very high energy!

Deb
:wavey:
 

packrat

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Pits are not bred to be human aggressive and even those who fight them (and in no way shape or form would I ever ever ever in a million years condone that ever) will put them down if they show signs of human aggression. The tenacity was for a reason-when they're taking down other animals that are bigger and also aggressive, they can't give up. And the loyalty-good heavens, they'll wag their tails and lick the hands of those who abuse them in the most heinous ways. The good things about them are also the worst in that way. That's part of why they're used for fighting-they'll fight and fight and fight, and then turn and give the most vile piece of trash a dog kiss b/c that's what they do.

Sorry, I'm a huge pit bull advocate so I tend to get carried away.

We have a different culture here. Other countries probably expect certain things from people. Here, tho, you don't have to be expected to do anything, there's no standard, there's no expectations, no fault for anything you do. We're all victims in some manner and can not be held accountable regardless what we do. It's pretty pathetic and it breeds..just..it breeds disgusting behaviors. Heck, you don't even have to teach your kids anything, you can call them "behaviors" and then get them into a special education program and let the teachers handle it.
 

kenny

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packrat|1444259447|3935996 said:
We have a different culture here.

Where's 'here'?

Sorry, but I can't remember everything posted by every poster, even by every regular.

I try to not assume everyone remembers everything I posted so I try to mention So. California whenever referring to my location.
Even if 99% did remember there's always the new person, and the old farts with declining memory, to consider.

Thanks in advance, or TIA in textspeak. :wavey:
 

packrat

Super_Ideal_Rock
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United States. Sorry, we were talking about the goings on here, so I just made an assumption as I was typing.
 

katharath

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Saw some of the heartbreaking news footage of the baby girl that died after being shot in the car. So incredibly sad, she was a beautiful tiny innocent BABY. They played a 911 call and you could hear the mother crying - almost more like wailing - in the background. I cannot even imagine.

Just saw this story about a woman who tried to shoot a shoplifter at HomeDepot today. Good thing she was there, gun in hand! Way to save the day! :roll:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-woman-shoots-shoplifter-flees-store-152704977.html
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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katharath|1444260936|3936013 said:
Saw some of the heartbreaking news footage of the baby girl that died after being shot in the car. So incredibly sad, she was a beautiful tiny innocent BABY. They played a 911 call and you could hear the mother crying - almost more like wailing - in the background. I cannot even imagine.

Just saw this story about a woman who tried to shoot a shoplifter at HomeDepot today. Good thing she was there, gun in hand! Way to save the day! :roll:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-woman-shoots-shoplifter-flees-store-152704977.html

Rah Rah Rah for the 'Murican Constitution.
 

jordyonbass

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katharath|1444260936|3936013 said:
Saw some of the heartbreaking news footage of the baby girl that died after being shot in the car. So incredibly sad, she was a beautiful tiny innocent BABY. They played a 911 call and you could hear the mother crying - almost more like wailing - in the background. I cannot even imagine.

Just saw this story about a woman who tried to shoot a shoplifter at HomeDepot today. Good thing she was there, gun in hand! Way to save the day! :roll:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-woman-shoots-shoplifter-flees-store-152704977.html

I honestly wonder whether the woman at HomeDepot ensured her line of fire was clear before trying to shoot the guy. You'd also want to make sure that you're better at hitting a moving target than an Olympic trap shooter. Too many variables that can make the person trying to be a hero into an actual villain.

Why would you want to try and kill a shoplifter anyway? I agree it's wrong to steal, but does anyone here ACTUALLY think someone should pay for shoplifting with their life?
We have prison for that.
 

chrono

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So it's okay for the armed American citizens to play a police role with their guns now? :rolleyes:
 

aljdewey

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Can we please stop pandering to the red herring argument of "oh, people need guns to protect themselves?" like it's somehow the majority who ascribe to this?

Most people I know who have guns don't have them for self protection; they hunt, they're into marksmanship as a sport, they're collectors, etc. Arguing that we need to protect ourselves as a reason not to engage in better screening in determining who gets guns is just ridiculous.

This following article really gets to the heart of the problem that I think we need to address: http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/us/girl-killed-puppy-in-tennessee/index.html

Cliff's notes: 11-year-old boy asks neighboring 8-year old girl if he can see her puppy; she says no. He goes home, gets a shotgun from an unlocked closet, and fires at her from his house, killing her.

I agree with Erica's earlier contention in this thread - the owner who didn't have this gun properly secured should be held legally responsible. He should ALSO be charged with the girl's death.

With rights come responsibilities, and for the many responsible gun owners I know (who live in MA, one of the strictest states regarding firearm regulations), the tighter controls are not a problem. The death toll in my state has not risen as a result of gun owners unable to protect themselves with their weapons locked out of usable reach.....that just hasn't happened.

I am not a supporter of abolishing guns at all, but I do think we need to find a way to more effectively keep guns out of hands that shouldn't have them. This would include (but not necessarily be limited to) people suffering from depression, mental illness, or non-owners accessing others' firearms.

I'm always mystified when I hear the query "why is the U.S. the only first-world country who has this problem" and they really believe the answer is less guns. It occurs to me that all the other first-world countries provide much more access to needed health services than we do; why hasn't anyone made that connection? Two-thirds of gun-related deaths are from suicide (mental anguish/depression), as many point out here. Does it occur to anyone else that if we took better care of our citizens, and they felt that compassion with access to help, it might overcome the hopelessness that leads to killing one's self or others?
 

purplesparklies

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If you don't agree or your situation is not such that you feel the same way, the position of others is a red herring? No one said the majority feel that people need guns to protect themselves. That is only one possibility. It is absolutely the sole reason we own a gun. We do not hunt and we do not shoot as a hobby. There have been increasing instances of home invasions in our general area in recent years. An elderly neighbor had his garage broken into in the middle of the night. Nothing was stolen and there were marks on the door leading to the house but the perpetrator was not able to get in the house. Police think the individual(s) was startled by something or someone and simply left. Being forced to acknowledge that we would be absolutely powerless if someone broke into our home and that our rural location means the police would arrive only to deal with the aftermath, we did our research and made decisions with which we are comfortable.

Not everyone's situation is the same. Don't want a gun? Don't go through the process of obtaining one. Just because most people you know behave a certain way does not mean they represent the majority. Nor does the fact that the majority of people I know behave differently mean they represent the majority.

I have not heard a single person comment that they would be against better screening. Not one single person. We agree. Many have made the connection that this issue is directly related to failures in our health system, our communities and families. It has been stated several times in this thread. We agree again. Now, how to bring about change? That is the challenge.
 

aljdewey

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Purple, if you really want to play the wordsmithing game, we could. For instance, I did not say that the people I know are the majority as you imply. Nor did I say the protection is a red herring simply because my opinion differs. It's a red herring because it's simply not why most gun owners have guns (though it may be the reason you do).

However, I feel that getting all semantic over absolutes is a waste of energy and doesn't actually feed useful discussion, so I'll invest mine another way.

It saddens me that posters in this (and other related threads over several months) have asked why Americans feel so unsafe that they need to arm themselves. While it may be true that's why some people do (yourself included), their comments give me the impression they believe such fear is widespread in this country, which I feel is untrue. In my job, I travel pretty frequently to many different areas of the U.S.; when I do, there are always tons of people out and about, enjoying life - during the day and during the evening. Heck, there are still several states where it's commonplace for people not to even lock their front doors at night. It's not all zombie apocalypse here.

The very fact that several posts in this thread discuss multiple scenarios in which armed private citizens might use their firearms to protect themselves and others and the potential fallout from that leads me to *personally* feel like it's focusing on the wrong thing. "Let's all just shoot the sh$t out of each other" and "everyone needs guns to protect themselves", and hypothetical "this one shot that one, and then someone else shot him" is a much different target problem than addressing why mass shootings occur in my opinion.

I've put as many qualifiers as I possibly can to avoid overstating things, so I'm not going to further engage in the wordsmithing game. I I'm not trying to change anyone's mind by expressing mine, and if my comments don't apply to you/resonate with you, please feel free to skip by them. :)
 

purplesparklies

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Ah. One of the posters who wishes to post but not discuss. Duly noted.

I apologize if I misunderstood. A statement that one argument is a red herring and is not held by the majority and immediately followed by a statement about the people you know led me to believe that you felt they were more representative of a majority. My apologies. May I ask what it is that you base your statement on? I am curious as I have not seen any studies about why the majority choose to own guns.

I agree that there is not widespread fear in this country. I don't worry about going about daily life. I don't know anyone who does. If that is the impression given by my posts, then I have not been clear and I apologize.

I am also not trying to change anyone's mind. I respect the fact that people make different decisions based on their beliefs, lives and opinions. Perhaps I am unique in that I welcome healthy discourse and find that discussion of all of these various factors provides new perspectives and an opportunity for thoughtful consideration. If I post, I am choosing to be a part of the conversation. Participation is purely voluntary.
 

kenny

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Thanks for posting the poll info ... very interesting.
 

packrat

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We own for multiple reasons. We like to target shoot (not that I've done that in...forever, but JD does a lot), JD hunts, he traps and that is how he dispatches the animals. And zombies. We don't expect zombies but we have them if we need them.
 

kenny

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packrat|1444328533|3936352 said:
We don't expect zombies but we have them if we need them.

Oh, you silly billy.
Guns don't work on zombies.
They're already dead. :lol:
 

aljdewey

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purplesparklies|1444322683|3936312 said:
Ah. One of the posters who wishes to post but not discuss. Duly noted.

Purple, you are free to think what you wish.

For my part, I'm very interested in constructive discussions about the actual topics, but I don't have the energy or the interest to trade snarky, sarcastic quips like the one above. I'd rather pass and let others who do want that to play along.

The topic heading here is mass shootings. I'm very interested in discussion that can constructively observe recurrent patterns in such events and potential resolutions to them, and I'd prefer to just pass by anything else. No intent to offend; I just don't wanna play.
 

purplesparklies

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kenny said:
Thanks for posting the poll info ... very interesting.

You are most welcome, Kenny. I thought it was very eye opening. With many assumptions and grand statements about gun owners and their reasons for choosing to own a gun being tossed around, I grew curious as to whether there was any actual evidence to substantiate these claims. Knowledge is power.
 

packrat

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kenny|1444336351|3936399 said:
packrat|1444328533|3936352 said:
We don't expect zombies but we have them if we need them.

Oh, you silly billy.
Guns don't work on zombies.
They're already dead. :lol:

the brain, Kenny, gotta get them in the brain, *then* they're really dead.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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packrat|1444354227|3936489 said:
kenny|1444336351|3936399 said:
packrat|1444328533|3936352 said:
We don't expect zombies but we have them if we need them.

Oh, you silly billy.
Guns don't work on zombies.
They're already dead. :lol:

the brain, Kenny, gotta get them in the brain, *then* they're really dead.

So, do I have this straight? ... get the zombies in the brain, but get the vampires through the heart.

Gee, I gotta write this down. :lol:
 

packrat

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Kenny Kenny Kenny..vampires aren't real, silly!

But yes, zombies=brain, vampires=heart.

Republicans and Democrats, that I'm not sure about..they seem to have neither.
 

kenny

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packrat|1444356484|3936504 said:
Kenny Kenny Kenny..vampires aren't real, silly!


Two words ...
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