POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Affair?

[D_]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Thanks, Perry. Wishing you success here too.

When we bend over backwards to justify actions like that, it..I'm not sure how to explain it. It lessens the meaning of marriage in general. If we have no respect for marriage as a whole, it lessens the value of it.

We seem to have such a lack of respect for many things, and we seem to have such a knack for justifying that lack of respect.

+1
And hence why the divorce rate is high.
Granted there are some legit reasons for divorce: e.g. if one partner becomes abusive and the other partner could not have known about this before marriage.
For most other reasons, well, we made our decision, consciously, without a gun pointed to our head. If we can't respect our own decision, who will? Although I concur, it's more appealing to play victim.

Some get divorced because they say people change, some say because people don't. So which one is it?
For the latter, we don't go into marriage thinking that we are so special we have the power to change other people.
We can hope, we can try, but we'll also need to be prepared to live with the scenario if he/she doesn't.
Otherwise we get out of the relationship before we get married, not after.
For the former, is the change 180 degree? Can we work through it?
Some society put a lot of emphasis on duty, some on individuality and pursuit of happiness.
When someone gets married, regardless of culture, religion etc. even though it's important to be able to grow and be happy individually, the emphasis needs to shift from 100% me me me to at least 50% of WE (including the children).
I blame it on Disney movies that make a lot of people believe growing up that love stories end with happily ever after, so people bail at the first sign of trouble.
We don't (see caveat above), we buckle down and we try our damnest to make it work.
Wedding is (relatively) easy, marriage is not.
If marriage can be dissolved so easily why not remain as boyfriend/girlfriend and save the wedding $$$, prenup stress etc?

Going into a marriage knowing we can always get out of it if and when things go wrong is different from going into it thinking this is it - it's like buying a diamond w/ no return policy. We'll be much much more careful in purchasing one. Although, it will undoubtedly cause a lot of people to be to scared to purchase one, especially since we are so used to having vendors offering generous return policy. Don't like 'em? Not completely satisfied? Just ship it back and find another one, there are still plenty others.

 

[perry]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't understand why a person would get married, and vow to be faithful to someone for the rest of their life, if they want to be w/other people. If you think you are not capable of staying faithful, don't get married. Don't be in a "serious" relationship. Unless the status quo in that marriage/relationship, for *both* partners, is to be w/other people. (again tho, um, der? why bother?) An affair is in no way shape or form a mistake. It is a conscious decision. I'm not going to walk into my house and say "Oh holy hell JD, I had the craziest day today-I was driving home and then suddenly my car was in the parking lot of the hotel! Then, like...wow this is so strange..I was inside the room! Okay, so THEN, all of a sudden, I was naked, on the BED! Then this guy came outa nowhere and had sex with me!" A mistake is reading an 8 as a 3 on the digital clock. Not inserting or having inserted into your vagina, a penis. A mistake is forgetting to dump the dehumidifier tub and it overflows. Not actively seeking out emotional contact/intimacy from someone who is not your partner.

If you are not having a need met at home, and you value the relationship AND THE PERSON at home, then you work on it at home, not rutting around in the backseat of a car w/someone else.

It's not a mistake, it's a conscious decision. Calling it a mistake is justification.

I am with you packrat and in fact was having this very discussion with my dh the other day. Why bother getting married or staying married if you feel this way. It is not fair to the other person in the marriage. Unless you are on the same page i.e. open marriage but then no cheating is happening. Everything is open and above board.

People who behave like this disgust me. The behavior is so selfish so piggish and so wrong. Yes I am going to judge here because this behavior is bad behavior and without judgment (about some things) there is anarchy.

Packrat & Missy:

In many cases it was not intentional and the people involved fully intended to be faithful when they got married. In many cases people do not really know themselves or their partner - and do not understand how they will react in the future under certain situations. If there was a hard pledge for faithfulness many people feel that they cannot even discuss it with their spouse (especially if something actually happened) no matter how much they want to resolve issues.

In some cases, people do not have access to their spouse to discuss the situation in advance.

A very big key is to at least be willing to ask and investigate "why"; along with a communication to your spouse that you are open to discussing any issue related to fidelity if needed (That does not mean that you promise to stay - but, that they have a chance if there is a good reason why and they want to save the marriage).

Here is part of my story that illustrates how complicated things can get:

OK, I have previously stated that Princess and I agreed up front that there were some pre-approved exceptions to sexual fidelity: Survival situations (do what is needed to survive the best you can); and the other one preapproved was long term unavailability (what happens if one of us goes into a coma, or disappears, etc - for years.... are we supposed to suddenly become asexual, are we supposed to divorce our incapacitated or missing spouse - which happens, etc.).

I note that both of these cases are situation where you would not be able to communicate with your spouse due to how unexpected these situations develop. Then we discussed and set expectations concerning fidelity (and other things); with the acknowledgement that we would discuss any issues (very much preferably in advance; but after the fact is necessary). We discussed that problems in the fidelity area could seriously jeopardize the marriage and would in most cases immediately put us into marriage counseling.

A year into the marriage we have a major issue (nothing to do with fidelity). Part of the issue involves sexuality (it is amazing how much sexuality affects many things). None of our vows or expectations have been challenged; but major conflict to the point of potential separation. This despite reading The 5 Love Languages and other books prior to marriage...

We go into counseling. Now years ago on this forum I posted the fact that in my early 20's I was suicidal and almost committed suicide due to problems grappling with my sexuality and the standards I had been taught (the point issue of the day was: If I was going to marry a virgin - then I should also be virgin; and my body was saying differently..., and there were other aspects as well).

Anyone who has ever been in the black hole of suicidal depression and worked their way out of it knows... that you never ever even want to get close to doing that again. So, while I worked out a new set of sexual standards that allowed me to function normally and have girlfriends from my mid 20's; I also build a large safety zone on my permissible actions and situations because certain aspects of those original issues were never resolved and are walled off in my head (which is quite normal as few issues are ever totally resolved; you just find a major patch that allows you to live and move forward, and the mind naturally represses that situation unless it is forced to deal with it again). It would still be dangerous to enter some of those issues even today (and two different psyc's indicated I had done very well with my solution 30+ years earlier and agreed it would very dangerous to reopen the issues from my 20's to try to find a better solution).

That large safety zone interfered with my ability to appropriately respond to certain needs that some woman have, including in this case my wife. I was able to reduce substantially the size of that safety zone so I can do things in the missing area, and my wife understands why I have a limit in one area. That was not the only issue related to sexuality (I think there were at least 3 different "sub-issues" that involved human sexuality).

Overall, there were a least a half dozen different areas where either my wife or I had to learn about ourselves and the other person as both my wife and I have pasts with traumatic events in them where we had developed methods of dealing with them; and cultural differences.

When we were done with the counseling we knew a lot more about who we were as a person, and a lot more about who our spouse was as a person. Some of our expectations we had set up front prior to the marriage had to be revised based on what we found out about who we were. The counselor told me that a good portion of couples who come to her had problems based in the fact that the people did not know who they really were and how they would respond in certain situations. How valid are vows in those conditions?

Changing to what can unexpectedly happen:

Sexual fantasies can be dangerous. What are your and your partners sexual fantasies? What happens if either of you find yourself in a situation that matches those fantasies. Statistics are really good that many people will complete the fantasy regardless of vows. You have played it in your head so many times that your brain sees it as acceptable within the marriage. How many people have discussed with their spouse what their sexual fantasies are (all of them) and how you will handle as a couple it if it ever plays out in real life? I actually believe that this is in a number of cases why the first event happens; what happens after that depends if a person has open permission from their spouse to talk about it - or not (i.e. its an "I'm dead if I even mention it" in their mind).

In once I had what I consider a dangerous sexual fantasy (since my teenager years); and recognized just how dangerous it could be about a decade ago. It took about 3-4 years of effort to replace from "active" playing with a more safe fantasy (but that fantasy is still buried in my mind; and the longer it stay buried the better. But, put me into the wrong environment - especially for a length of time - it could pop up again).

I work in an industry where people have lost their six figure jobs because one of their "friends" decided to serve (or add) pot laced food items. Fail the drug test and you are fired; and banned from the industry typically for at least 5 years. No appeals. I know one person who instantly reported the incident before he returned to the work site; and he avoided being fired but had to enter a drug program and was on PTO (or unpaid time off) for 2 months; and then was on a multi-year increased monitoring program.

I remember when people spiked drinks at parties with other chemicals (late 60's early 70's) and know a number of people who were unsuspectingly fed LSD, and other mind altering drugs, as a teenager (and a few who willingly imbibed). Lets just say that their actions were not what they intended.

At what I consider the extreme end I know of a case where a guy divorced his wife because she had sex with another by being rapped. Like that was her choice? Was she supposed to die first, or kill herself?

So I think asking what happened and why is very important before jumping to any conclusions. In some cases it may take time to dig to the roots to find out why it happened. It is not always that a person overtly decided to do something that would affect their partner, don't want to bother talking with their spouse about it, and/or don't respect their spouse. Often there are reasons that neither they nor their spouse had a conscious understanding of behind what happened and why. That is the overall lesson I learned from 6 months of counseling (for many issues).

Now, it is quite OK with me to decide that "I'm out of here" after you figure out the reason(s).

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[LLJsmom]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I think people need to be way, way, way more careful about how well they know their partner and themselves BEFORE they get married.

 

[missy]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Perry thank you for going into that detailed explanation. I agree sometimes there are extreme circumstances but for the most part I agree with LLJsmom.

I think people need to be way, way, way more careful about how well they know their partner and themselves BEFORE they get married.

I am not saying there is one way that works for everyone but I feel a lot of problems would be avoided or nipped in the proverbial bud if people knew their partners better before they got married. My dh and I dated for 5 years (because of my reluctance to ever get married) and I have to say it really made me feel more confident and comfortable to marry him because of it. We really knew each other and had discussed almost every potential issue/problem we could think of before marrying. Also we had discussed if any problem arises during our marriage we would discuss it with each other before it became a huge issue. Open and honest communication always is key for us. Of course YMMV and there is no one right way for everyone but for the most part I feel the more you know someone before you commit to a long term relationship like marriage the better.

 

[packrat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I agree people should know each other better-and don't stop communicating after marriage either. It's no different in that aspect than any other relationship-you need to communicate.

I don't think people go into marriages thinking they'll cheat, or looking at it like oh well, if I'm not getting what I want, I'll go sleep w/someone else...(well, most people I don't think feel that way!) but I feel like as an adult, the onus is on you to own up to your own thoughts and feelings, and if you're feeling you're going to stray, then you need to look at the relationship and decide if you want to continue it or not before messing around. Wieners aren't going to self destruct if they don't get used until a divorce happens, and vaginas won't grow shut. I see it as massive justification of basically not wanting to act like an adult.

 

[amc80]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Some of the reply's here really sadden me.

Would I want to know- oh heck yeah. If my husband ever cheated on me (emotionally or physically) we would be done. There would be no forgiveness, no nothing- it would be over. Like I said before it saddens me that people think it is ok, even if it happened long ago. There seems to be an underlining current in society that it is ok to cheat as long as it isn't long term and forgiveness should be given so the family stays together- hey men wander it is their nature .

My greatest fear in life is that my daughter grows up thinking it is ok. I have never in the 13 years I have been with my husband cheated on him or wanted too, and he has been gone much of that 13 years. We have trust, love and respect for one another. I want my daughter to have the same thing. When a person cheats on their spouse it is a conscious decision - not a mistake. A mistake is when you forget to pick up milk at the grocery store on the way home. May I raise my son and daughter to love and respect their SO's, to truly treat them as the other half of their soul. And should they be cheated on, may their spouse watch out because they will breathe fire because forgiveness won't happen

Why do the replies sadden you? Just because you would make a different choice doesn't mean someone else can't make a different one. I don't think one person said that it was "okay" just because it was long ago. I don't think cheating is every okay. It's very, very wrong, and there's really no excuse for it. Sometimes, though, ignorance is bliss. If I have a happy life, why would I want that interrupted just because my husband was a huge idiot one time?

 

[telephone89]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

This is a very interesting thread.

Perry - you do not have to answer, but I am curious - how long does your spouse have to be missing before you/she moves on? Totally non judgemental, I'm honestly wondering what the 'correct' amount of time is. That is something I had not thought of as far as 'cheating' goes. TBH I wouldn't consider it cheating, but I guess that depends on the amount of time. So I was jw what you had set, or if you have a defined date.

 

[packrat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

If JD went missing or was in a coma I would just get another cat. Or..two..three maybe.

 

[perry]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

This is a very interesting thread.

Perry - you do not have to answer, but I am curious - how long does your spouse have to be missing before you/she moves on? Totally non judgemental, I'm honestly wondering what the 'correct' amount of time is. That is something I had not thought of as far as 'cheating' goes. TBH I wouldn't consider it cheating, but I guess that depends on the amount of time. So I was jw what you had set, or if you have a defined date.

I am not going to tell you what we decided on for a time period. But, we did discuss a wide range of "periods" (short to long) and the pro's and con's of each for each of us. We did agree to an exact time period that we would have to wait (or it would be cheating) Also, the term we used for the situation is "sexual unavailability (for any reason)"; as that covers all the possibilities.

My other comment is that the areas I described above in this thread should be rare events, if they occur at all (that may not be the case; but it should be). Even then, there are some rules about the other intimate friends. Its not a free for all.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[missy]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

If JD went missing or was in a coma I would just get another cat. Or..two..three maybe.

Hahaha love this packrat and I shared it with my dh who fully supports this idea. LOL.

 

[House Cat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

If JD went missing or was in a coma I would just get another cat. Or..two..three maybe.

All of your posts on this thread are spot on.

 

[iLander]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I'm kind of mystified by the concept that someone can't live without sex.

I think that's a bit silly.

I don't know about anyone else, but if DH were to have an accident or something, I'd be fine with never having sex again, for the rest of my days. We've talked about it, and he's fine with it too. What's the big deal?

I guess, to me, sex is 99% emotional, I can't enjoy it "just for fun" or with someone I'm not committed to. Come to think of it, that's probably why I don't look at others in a sexual way; because I have no emotional attachment to them, and don't see them in that way. At all.

Sex is not like breathing, it's optional.

 

[House Cat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't understand why a person would get married, and vow to be faithful to someone for the rest of their life, if they want to be w/other people. If you think you are not capable of staying faithful, don't get married. Don't be in a "serious" relationship. Unless the status quo in that marriage/relationship, for *both* partners, is to be w/other people. (again tho, um, der? why bother?) An affair is in no way shape or form a mistake. It is a conscious decision. I'm not going to walk into my house and say "Oh holy hell JD, I had the craziest day today-I was driving home and then suddenly my car was in the parking lot of the hotel! Then, like...wow this is so strange..I was inside the room! Okay, so THEN, all of a sudden, I was naked, on the BED! Then this guy came outa nowhere and had sex with me!" A mistake is reading an 8 as a 3 on the digital clock. Not inserting or having inserted into your vagina, a penis. A mistake is forgetting to dump the dehumidifier tub and it overflows. Not actively seeking out emotional contact/intimacy from someone who is not your partner.

If you are not having a need met at home, and you value the relationship AND THE PERSON at home, then you work on it at home, not rutting around in the backseat of a car w/someone else.

It's not a mistake, it's a conscious decision. Calling it a mistake is justification.

I am with you packrat and in fact was having this very discussion with my dh the other day. Why bother getting married or staying married if you feel this way. It is not fair to the other person in the marriage. Unless you are on the same page i.e. open marriage but then no cheating is happening. Everything is open and above board.

People who behave like this disgust me. The behavior is so selfish so piggish and so wrong. Yes I am going to judge here because this behavior is bad behavior and without judgment (about some things) there is anarchy.

Packrat & Missy:

In many cases it was not intentional and the people involved fully intended to be faithful when they got married. In many cases people do not really know themselves or their partner - and do not understand how they will react in the future under certain situations. If there was a hard pledge for faithfulness many people feel that they cannot even discuss it with their spouse (especially if something actually happened) no matter how much they want to resolve issues.

In some cases, people do not have access to their spouse to discuss the situation in advance.

A very big key is to at least be willing to ask and investigate "why"; along with a communication to your spouse that you are open to discussing any issue related to fidelity if needed (That does not mean that you promise to stay - but, that they have a chance if there is a good reason why and they want to save the marriage).

Here is part of my story that illustrates how complicated things can get:

OK, I have previously stated that Princess and I agreed up front that there were some pre-approved exceptions to sexual fidelity: Survival situations (do what is needed to survive the best you can); and the other one preapproved was long term unavailability (what happens if one of us goes into a coma, or disappears, etc - for years.... are we supposed to suddenly become asexual, are we supposed to divorce our incapacitated or missing spouse - which happens, etc.).

I note that both of these cases are situation where you would not be able to communicate with your spouse due to how unexpected these situations develop. Then we discussed and set expectations concerning fidelity (and other things); with the acknowledgement that we would discuss any issues (very much preferably in advance; but after the fact is necessary). We discussed that problems in the fidelity area could seriously jeopardize the marriage and would in most cases immediately put us into marriage counseling.

A year into the marriage we have a major issue (nothing to do with fidelity). Part of the issue involves sexuality (it is amazing how much sexuality affects many things). None of our vows or expectations have been challenged; but major conflict to the point of potential separation. This despite reading The 5 Love Languages and other books prior to marriage...

We go into counseling. Now years ago on this forum I posted the fact that in my early 20's I was suicidal and almost committed suicide due to problems grappling with my sexuality and the standards I had been taught (the point issue of the day was: If I was going to marry a virgin - then I should also be virgin; and my body was saying differently..., and there were other aspects as well).

Anyone who has ever been in the black hole of suicidal depression and worked their way out of it knows... that you never ever even want to get close to doing that again. So, while I worked out a new set of sexual standards that allowed me to function normally and have girlfriends from my mid 20's; I also build a large safety zone on my permissible actions and situations because certain aspects of those original issues were never resolved and are walled off in my head (which is quite normal as few issues are ever totally resolved; you just find a major patch that allows you to live and move forward, and the mind naturally represses that situation unless it is forced to deal with it again). It would still be dangerous to enter some of those issues even today (and two different psyc's indicated I had done very well with my solution 30+ years earlier and agreed it would very dangerous to reopen the issues from my 20's to try to find a better solution).

That large safety zone interfered with my ability to appropriately respond to certain needs that some woman have, including in this case my wife. I was able to reduce substantially the size of that safety zone so I can do things in the missing area, and my wife understands why I have a limit in one area. That was not the only issue related to sexuality (I think there were at least 3 different "sub-issues" that involved human sexuality).

Overall, there were a least a half dozen different areas where either my wife or I had to learn about ourselves and the other person as both my wife and I have pasts with traumatic events in them where we had developed methods of dealing with them; and cultural differences.

When we were done with the counseling we knew a lot more about who we were as a person, and a lot more about who our spouse was as a person. Some of our expectations we had set up front prior to the marriage had to be revised based on what we found out about who we were. The counselor told me that a good portion of couples who come to her had problems based in the fact that the people did not know who they really were and how they would respond in certain situations. How valid are vows in those conditions?

Changing to what can unexpectedly happen:

Sexual fantasies can be dangerous. What are your and your partners sexual fantasies? What happens if either of you find yourself in a situation that matches those fantasies. Statistics are really good that many people will complete the fantasy regardless of vows. You have played it in your head so many times that your brain sees it as acceptable within the marriage. How many people have discussed with their spouse what their sexual fantasies are (all of them) and how you will handle as a couple it if it ever plays out in real life? I actually believe that this is in a number of cases why the first event happens; what happens after that depends if a person has open permission from their spouse to talk about it - or not (i.e. its an "I'm dead if I even mention it" in their mind).

In once I had what I consider a dangerous sexual fantasy (since my teenager years); and recognized just how dangerous it could be about a decade ago. It took about 3-4 years of effort to replace from "active" playing with a more safe fantasy (but that fantasy is still buried in my mind; and the longer it stay buried the better. But, put me into the wrong environment - especially for a length of time - it could pop up again).

I work in an industry where people have lost their six figure jobs because one of their "friends" decided to serve (or add) pot laced food items. Fail the drug test and you are fired; and banned from the industry typically for at least 5 years. No appeals. I know one person who instantly reported the incident before he returned to the work site; and he avoided being fired but had to enter a drug program and was on PTO (or unpaid time off) for 2 months; and then was on a multi-year increased monitoring program.

I remember when people spiked drinks at parties with other chemicals (late 60's early 70's) and know a number of people who were unsuspectingly fed LSD, and other mind altering drugs, as a teenager (and a few who willingly imbibed). Lets just say that their actions were not what they intended.

At what I consider the extreme end I know of a case where a guy divorced his wife because she had sex with another by being rapped. Like that was her choice? Was she supposed to die first, or kill herself?

So I think asking what happened and why is very important before jumping to any conclusions. In some cases it may take time to dig to the roots to find out why it happened. It is not always that a person overtly decided to do something that would affect their partner, don't want to bother talking with their spouse about it, and/or don't respect their spouse. Often there are reasons that neither they nor their spouse had a conscious understanding of behind what happened and why. That is the overall lesson I learned from 6 months of counseling (for many issues).

Now, it is quite OK with me to decide that "I'm out of here" after you figure out the reason(s).

Have a great day,

Perry

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are lacking sensitivity because you are a man and so it wouldn't occur to you how a woman might view the way you've put things in this post. I do hope this is the case. If so, consider this an education in sensitivity. Rape is always a very touchy subject for many, many women. It would probably be best that you put some distance between the subject of rape and your dangerous fantasies whenever you are speaking to ANYONE if you would like to maintain normal relationships with others.

 

[packrat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't consider being raped, "cheating". I have issues w/people who say "Oh, I was drunk, I slept w/that guy/girl, but I didn't mean to". If you're adult enough to put yourself in adult situations, then yeah, you mean to. It wasn't an accident, it was a stupid consequence of intoxication. It's not like "that cat ran right in front of me and I hit it w/my car"...there's no "That penis was right in front of me and I had to sit on it" or "I was just minding my own business and suddenly outa nowhere this vagina was around my penis". If you're given something on the sly and don't realize it, that's hard to fault--and I'd be looking for a better class of friends or hang outs. I don't consider when I am trying to get to sleep and my mind wanders to Norman Reedus to be cheating. There's a whole lotta justification w/people who don't want to take ownership of their actions.

 

[perry]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are lacking sensitivity because you are a man and so it wouldn't occur to you how a woman might view the way you've put things in this post. I do hope this is the case. If so, consider this an education in sensitivity. Rape is always a very touchy subject for many, many women. It would probably be best that you put some distance between the subject of rape and your dangerous fantasies whenever you are speaking to ANYONE if you would like to maintain normal relationships with others.

Where did I ever hint that my fantasy involved rape? Non-consensual sex is personally abhorrent (and in my case I need more than that - I need active participation by my partner - not just laying there and allowing it).

As for what I saw with drugs... I did not see any non-consensual activities; nor did I say in my post that such things occurred. But, people (both female and male) did things they would not have done if they were not under the effects of drugs; and I question if a person can be held responsible for doing something under the influence of drugs that they did not knowingly take.

One of the problems of discussing sexuality at all is that people easily misinterpret things based on their own personal expectations. Actually, that happens on many topics.

I posted the section on sexual fantasies because I am not sure how aware people are of how they can take over your actual life if you ever find yourself in that scenario in real life.

My dangerous fantasy had nothing to do with rape or any kinds of non-consent. But, it could be dangerous to me in other ways (danger being more broadly defined a significant negative effect on my life). Ask yourself this: What are the potential consequences if your fantasy occurs and becomes public knowledge. Is it easily accepted by most people and a relatively non-event; or could it really have significant negative effects on your life?

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[House Cat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are lacking sensitivity because you are a man and so it wouldn't occur to you how a woman might view the way you've put things in this post. I do hope this is the case. If so, consider this an education in sensitivity. Rape is always a very touchy subject for many, many women. It would probably be best that you put some distance between the subject of rape and your dangerous fantasies whenever you are speaking to ANYONE if you would like to maintain normal relationships with others.

Where did I ever hint that my fantasy involved rape? Non-consensual sex is personally abhorrent (and in my case I need more than that - I need active participation by my partner - not just laying there and allowing it).

As for what I saw with drugs... I did not see any non-consensual activities; nor did I say in my post that such things occurred. But, people (both female and male) did things they would not have done if they were not under the effects of drugs; and I question if a person can be held responsible for doing something under the influence of drugs that they did not knowingly take.

One of the problems of discussing sexuality at all is that people easily misinterpret things based on their own personal expectations. Actually, that happens on many topics.

I posted the section on sexual fantasies because I am not sure how aware people are of how they can take over your actual life if you ever find yourself in that scenario in real life.

My dangerous fantasy had nothing to do with rape or any kinds of non-consent. But, it could be dangerous to me in other ways (danger being more broadly defined a significant negative effect on my life). Ask yourself this: What are the potential consequences if your fantasy occurs and becomes public knowledge. Is it easily accepted by most people and a relatively non-event; or could it really have significant negative effects on your life?

Have a great day,

Perry

Wow Perry. Did you read what I said?

Or are you going to throw things back at me and learn NOTHING?

I said nothing about you hinting toward rape. What I did say is that your message was alarming due to the order in which it was written and the fact that you go RIGHT FROM your dangerous fantasy INTO drugging people and rape.

I didn't write your message. YOU DID.

Furthermore, I am not misinterpreting anything according to my own expectations.

 

[Calliecake]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't understand why a person would get married, and vow to be faithful to someone for the rest of their life, if they want to be w/other people. If you think you are not capable of staying faithful, don't get married. Don't be in a "serious" relationship. Unless the status quo in that marriage/relationship, for *both* partners, is to be w/other people. (again tho, um, der? why bother?) An affair is in no way shape or form a mistake. It is a conscious decision. I'm not going to walk into my house and say "Oh holy hell JD, I had the craziest day today-I was driving home and then suddenly my car was in the parking lot of the hotel! Then, like...wow this is so strange..I was inside the room! Okay, so THEN, all of a sudden, I was naked, on the BED! Then this guy came outa nowhere and had sex with me!" A mistake is reading an 8 as a 3 on the digital clock. Not inserting or having inserted into your vagina, a penis. A mistake is forgetting to dump the dehumidifier tub and it overflows. Not actively seeking out emotional contact/intimacy from someone who is not your partner.

If you are not having a need met at home, and you value the relationship AND THE PERSON at home, then you work on it at home, not rutting around in the backseat of a car w/someone else.

It's not a mistake, it's a conscious decision. Calling it a mistake is justification.

I am with you packrat and in fact was having this very discussion with my dh the other day. Why bother getting married or staying married if you feel this way. It is not fair to the other person in the marriage. Unless you are on the same page i.e. open marriage but then no cheating is happening. Everything is open and above board.

People who behave like this disgust me. The behavior is so selfish so piggish and so wrong. Yes I am going to judge here because this behavior is bad behavior and without judgment (about some things) there is anarchy.

Packrat & Missy:

In many cases it was not intentional and the people involved fully intended to be faithful when they got married. In many cases people do not really know themselves or their partner - and do not understand how they will react in the future under certain situations. If there was a hard pledge for faithfulness many people feel that they cannot even discuss it with their spouse (especially if something actually happened) no matter how much they want to resolve issues.

In some cases, people do not have access to their spouse to discuss the situation in advance.

A very big key is to at least be willing to ask and investigate "why"; along with a communication to your spouse that you are open to discussing any issue related to fidelity if needed (That does not mean that you promise to stay - but, that they have a chance if there is a good reason why and they want to save the marriage).

Here is part of my story that illustrates how complicated things can get:

OK, I have previously stated that Princess and I agreed up front that there were some pre-approved exceptions to sexual fidelity: Survival situations (do what is needed to survive the best you can); and the other one preapproved was long term unavailability (what happens if one of us goes into a coma, or disappears, etc - for years.... are we supposed to suddenly become asexual, are we supposed to divorce our incapacitated or missing spouse - which happens, etc.).

I note that both of these cases are situation where you would not be able to communicate with your spouse due to how unexpected these situations develop. Then we discussed and set expectations concerning fidelity (and other things); with the acknowledgement that we would discuss any issues (very much preferably in advance; but after the fact is necessary). We discussed that problems in the fidelity area could seriously jeopardize the marriage and would in most cases immediately put us into marriage counseling.

A year into the marriage we have a major issue (nothing to do with fidelity). Part of the issue involves sexuality (it is amazing how much sexuality affects many things). None of our vows or expectations have been challenged; but major conflict to the point of potential separation. This despite reading The 5 Love Languages and other books prior to marriage...

We go into counseling. Now years ago on this forum I posted the fact that in my early 20's I was suicidal and almost committed suicide due to problems grappling with my sexuality and the standards I had been taught (the point issue of the day was: If I was going to marry a virgin - then I should also be virgin; and my body was saying differently..., and there were other aspects as well).

Anyone who has ever been in the black hole of suicidal depression and worked their way out of it knows... that you never ever even want to get close to doing that again. So, while I worked out a new set of sexual standards that allowed me to function normally and have girlfriends from my mid 20's; I also build a large safety zone on my permissible actions and situations because certain aspects of those original issues were never resolved and are walled off in my head (which is quite normal as few issues are ever totally resolved; you just find a major patch that allows you to live and move forward, and the mind naturally represses that situation unless it is forced to deal with it again). It would still be dangerous to enter some of those issues even today (and two different psyc's indicated I had done very well with my solution 30+ years earlier and agreed it would very dangerous to reopen the issues from my 20's to try to find a better solution).

That large safety zone interfered with my ability to appropriately respond to certain needs that some woman have, including in this case my wife. I was able to reduce substantially the size of that safety zone so I can do things in the missing area, and my wife understands why I have a limit in one area. That was not the only issue related to sexuality (I think there were at least 3 different "sub-issues" that involved human sexuality).

Overall, there were a least a half dozen different areas where either my wife or I had to learn about ourselves and the other person as both my wife and I have pasts with traumatic events in them where we had developed methods of dealing with them; and cultural differences.

When we were done with the counseling we knew a lot more about who we were as a person, and a lot more about who our spouse was as a person. Some of our expectations we had set up front prior to the marriage had to be revised based on what we found out about who we were. The counselor told me that a good portion of couples who come to her had problems based in the fact that the people did not know who they really were and how they would respond in certain situations. How valid are vows in those conditions?

Changing to what can unexpectedly happen:

Sexual fantasies can be dangerous. What are your and your partners sexual fantasies? What happens if either of you find yourself in a situation that matches those fantasies. Statistics are really good that many people will complete the fantasy regardless of vows. You have played it in your head so many times that your brain sees it as acceptable within the marriage. How many people have discussed with their spouse what their sexual fantasies are (all of them) and how you will handle as a couple it if it ever plays out in real life? I actually believe that this is in a number of cases why the first event happens; what happens after that depends if a person has open permission from their spouse to talk about it - or not (i.e. its an "I'm dead if I even mention it" in their mind).

In once I had what I consider a dangerous sexual fantasy (since my teenager years); and recognized just how dangerous it could be about a decade ago. It took about 3-4 years of effort to replace from "active" playing with a more safe fantasy (but that fantasy is still buried in my mind; and the longer it stay buried the better. But, put me into the wrong environment - especially for a length of time - it could pop up again).

I work in an industry where people have lost their six figure jobs because one of their "friends" decided to serve (or add) pot laced food items. Fail the drug test and you are fired; and banned from the industry typically for at least 5 years. No appeals. I know one person who instantly reported the incident before he returned to the work site; and he avoided being fired but had to enter a drug program and was on PTO (or unpaid time off) for 2 months; and then was on a multi-year increased monitoring program.

I remember when people spiked drinks at parties with other chemicals (late 60's early 70's) and know a number of people who were unsuspectingly fed LSD, and other mind altering drugs, as a teenager (and a few who willingly imbibed). Lets just say that their actions were not what they intended.

At what I consider the extreme end I know of a case where a guy divorced his wife because she had sex with another by being rapped. Like that was her choice? Was she supposed to die first, or kill herself?

So I think asking what happened and why is very important before jumping to any conclusions. In some cases it may take time to dig to the roots to find out why it happened. It is not always that a person overtly decided to do something that would affect their partner, don't want to bother talking with their spouse about it, and/or don't respect their spouse. Often there are reasons that neither they nor their spouse had a conscious understanding of behind what happened and why. That is the overall lesson I learned from 6 months of counseling (for many issues).

Now, it is quite OK with me to decide that "I'm out of here" after you figure out the reason(s).

Have a great day,

Perry

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are lacking sensitivity because you are a man and so it wouldn't occur to you how a woman might view the way you've put things in this post. I do hope this is the case. If so, consider this an education in sensitivity. Rape is always a very touchy subject for many, many women. It would probably be best that you put some distance between the subject of rape and your dangerous fantasies whenever you are speaking to ANYONE if you would like to maintain normal relationships with others.

You were not alone House Cat. This post also bothered me the past few days.

 

[House Cat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't understand why a person would get married, and vow to be faithful to someone for the rest of their life, if they want to be w/other people. If you think you are not capable of staying faithful, don't get married. Don't be in a "serious" relationship. Unless the status quo in that marriage/relationship, for *both* partners, is to be w/other people. (again tho, um, der? why bother?) An affair is in no way shape or form a mistake. It is a conscious decision. I'm not going to walk into my house and say "Oh holy hell JD, I had the craziest day today-I was driving home and then suddenly my car was in the parking lot of the hotel! Then, like...wow this is so strange..I was inside the room! Okay, so THEN, all of a sudden, I was naked, on the BED! Then this guy came outa nowhere and had sex with me!" A mistake is reading an 8 as a 3 on the digital clock. Not inserting or having inserted into your vagina, a penis. A mistake is forgetting to dump the dehumidifier tub and it overflows. Not actively seeking out emotional contact/intimacy from someone who is not your partner.

If you are not having a need met at home, and you value the relationship AND THE PERSON at home, then you work on it at home, not rutting around in the backseat of a car w/someone else.

It's not a mistake, it's a conscious decision. Calling it a mistake is justification.

I am with you packrat and in fact was having this very discussion with my dh the other day. Why bother getting married or staying married if you feel this way. It is not fair to the other person in the marriage. Unless you are on the same page i.e. open marriage but then no cheating is happening. Everything is open and above board.

People who behave like this disgust me. The behavior is so selfish so piggish and so wrong. Yes I am going to judge here because this behavior is bad behavior and without judgment (about some things) there is anarchy.

Packrat & Missy:

In many cases it was not intentional and the people involved fully intended to be faithful when they got married. In many cases people do not really know themselves or their partner - and do not understand how they will react in the future under certain situations. If there was a hard pledge for faithfulness many people feel that they cannot even discuss it with their spouse (especially if something actually happened) no matter how much they want to resolve issues.

In some cases, people do not have access to their spouse to discuss the situation in advance.

A very big key is to at least be willing to ask and investigate "why"; along with a communication to your spouse that you are open to discussing any issue related to fidelity if needed (That does not mean that you promise to stay - but, that they have a chance if there is a good reason why and they want to save the marriage).

Here is part of my story that illustrates how complicated things can get:

OK, I have previously stated that Princess and I agreed up front that there were some pre-approved exceptions to sexual fidelity: Survival situations (do what is needed to survive the best you can); and the other one preapproved was long term unavailability (what happens if one of us goes into a coma, or disappears, etc - for years.... are we supposed to suddenly become asexual, are we supposed to divorce our incapacitated or missing spouse - which happens, etc.).

I note that both of these cases are situation where you would not be able to communicate with your spouse due to how unexpected these situations develop. Then we discussed and set expectations concerning fidelity (and other things); with the acknowledgement that we would discuss any issues (very much preferably in advance; but after the fact is necessary). We discussed that problems in the fidelity area could seriously jeopardize the marriage and would in most cases immediately put us into marriage counseling.

A year into the marriage we have a major issue (nothing to do with fidelity). Part of the issue involves sexuality (it is amazing how much sexuality affects many things). None of our vows or expectations have been challenged; but major conflict to the point of potential separation. This despite reading The 5 Love Languages and other books prior to marriage...

We go into counseling. Now years ago on this forum I posted the fact that in my early 20's I was suicidal and almost committed suicide due to problems grappling with my sexuality and the standards I had been taught (the point issue of the day was: If I was going to marry a virgin - then I should also be virgin; and my body was saying differently..., and there were other aspects as well).

Anyone who has ever been in the black hole of suicidal depression and worked their way out of it knows... that you never ever even want to get close to doing that again. So, while I worked out a new set of sexual standards that allowed me to function normally and have girlfriends from my mid 20's; I also build a large safety zone on my permissible actions and situations because certain aspects of those original issues were never resolved and are walled off in my head (which is quite normal as few issues are ever totally resolved; you just find a major patch that allows you to live and move forward, and the mind naturally represses that situation unless it is forced to deal with it again). It would still be dangerous to enter some of those issues even today (and two different psyc's indicated I had done very well with my solution 30+ years earlier and agreed it would very dangerous to reopen the issues from my 20's to try to find a better solution).

That large safety zone interfered with my ability to appropriately respond to certain needs that some woman have, including in this case my wife. I was able to reduce substantially the size of that safety zone so I can do things in the missing area, and my wife understands why I have a limit in one area. That was not the only issue related to sexuality (I think there were at least 3 different "sub-issues" that involved human sexuality).

Overall, there were a least a half dozen different areas where either my wife or I had to learn about ourselves and the other person as both my wife and I have pasts with traumatic events in them where we had developed methods of dealing with them; and cultural differences.

When we were done with the counseling we knew a lot more about who we were as a person, and a lot more about who our spouse was as a person. Some of our expectations we had set up front prior to the marriage had to be revised based on what we found out about who we were. The counselor told me that a good portion of couples who come to her had problems based in the fact that the people did not know who they really were and how they would respond in certain situations. How valid are vows in those conditions?

Changing to what can unexpectedly happen:

Sexual fantasies can be dangerous. What are your and your partners sexual fantasies? What happens if either of you find yourself in a situation that matches those fantasies. Statistics are really good that many people will complete the fantasy regardless of vows. You have played it in your head so many times that your brain sees it as acceptable within the marriage. How many people have discussed with their spouse what their sexual fantasies are (all of them) and how you will handle as a couple it if it ever plays out in real life? I actually believe that this is in a number of cases why the first event happens; what happens after that depends if a person has open permission from their spouse to talk about it - or not (i.e. its an "I'm dead if I even mention it" in their mind).

In once I had what I consider a dangerous sexual fantasy (since my teenager years); and recognized just how dangerous it could be about a decade ago. It took about 3-4 years of effort to replace from "active" playing with a more safe fantasy (but that fantasy is still buried in my mind; and the longer it stay buried the better. But, put me into the wrong environment - especially for a length of time - it could pop up again).

I work in an industry where people have lost their six figure jobs because one of their "friends" decided to serve (or add) pot laced food items. Fail the drug test and you are fired; and banned from the industry typically for at least 5 years. No appeals. I know one person who instantly reported the incident before he returned to the work site; and he avoided being fired but had to enter a drug program and was on PTO (or unpaid time off) for 2 months; and then was on a multi-year increased monitoring program.

I remember when people spiked drinks at parties with other chemicals (late 60's early 70's) and know a number of people who were unsuspectingly fed LSD, and other mind altering drugs, as a teenager (and a few who willingly imbibed). Lets just say that their actions were not what they intended.

At what I consider the extreme end I know of a case where a guy divorced his wife because she had sex with another by being rapped. Like that was her choice? Was she supposed to die first, or kill herself?

So I think asking what happened and why is very important before jumping to any conclusions. In some cases it may take time to dig to the roots to find out why it happened. It is not always that a person overtly decided to do something that would affect their partner, don't want to bother talking with their spouse about it, and/or don't respect their spouse. Often there are reasons that neither they nor their spouse had a conscious understanding of behind what happened and why. That is the overall lesson I learned from 6 months of counseling (for many issues).

Now, it is quite OK with me to decide that "I'm out of here" after you figure out the reason(s).

Have a great day,

Perry

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you are lacking sensitivity because you are a man and so it wouldn't occur to you how a woman might view the way you've put things in this post. I do hope this is the case. If so, consider this an education in sensitivity. Rape is always a very touchy subject for many, many women. It would probably be best that you put some distance between the subject of rape and your dangerous fantasies whenever you are speaking to ANYONE if you would like to maintain normal relationships with others.

You were not alone House Cat. The post also bothered me the past few days.

Thank you. I really needed to hear this. <3

 

[Calliecake]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Thank you for responding. I was wondering if no one else found the comments disturbing.

 

[chrono]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I chalk it up to coincidence that one was written after another, especially after reading Perry's latest post.

 

[iLander]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't consider being raped, "cheating". I have issues w/people who say "Oh, I was drunk, I slept w/that guy/girl, but I didn't mean to". If you're adult enough to put yourself in adult situations, then yeah, you mean to. It wasn't an accident, it was a stupid consequence of intoxication. It's not like "that cat ran right in front of me and I hit it w/my car"...there's no "That penis was right in front of me and I had to sit on it" or "I was just minding my own business and suddenly outa nowhere this vagina was around my penis". If you're given something on the sly and don't realize it, that's hard to fault--and I'd be looking for a better class of friends or hang outs. I don't consider when I am trying to get to sleep and my mind wanders to Norman Reedus to be cheating. There's a whole lotta justification w/people who don't want to take ownership of their actions.

OMG, I laughed and laughed, packrat!!

But it's true, that's such bull when people say "I didn't mean for it to happen, it just happened." Oh bull$hit. There are about 10,000 points when you can stop yourself. The idea that your thoughts, your brain, your body, your self, are things you have no control over; that's nonsense. We're not animals, we're humans with the ability to reason and act upon that reasoning.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

[quote="House Cat|

This post has been bothering me for days.

Perry, I am not sure if you are aware....

You speak of fantasy. Then you vaguely speak of your own "dangerous" fantasy, where if you were put in the wrong environment, it could pop up again and then you segue right into people being drugged and raped.

People "like me" find posts like these very alarming.

[/quote]



And you ladies thought I was dangerous...

 

[House Cat]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I chalk it up to coincidence that one was written after another, especially after reading Perry's latest post.

Yes. I was pretty sure that was the case, although I find it offensive that he would try to ping it back to me, stating that I am interpreting his post incorrectly according to my own personal expectations, instead of admitting a certain level of insensitivity on his part.


I also felt it best to point out how his post could be interpreted, rather than leave it hanging on the net for others to interpret it incorrectly.

 

[Calliecake]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I have no idea why rape was ever brought up in this thread. Rape is not consensual sex and to suggest otherwise is sickening.

 

[iLander]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I have no idea why rape was ever brought up in this thread. Rape is not consensual sex and to suggest otherwise is sickening.

+1

 

[D_]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I don't consider being raped, "cheating". I have issues w/people who say "Oh, I was drunk, I slept w/that guy/girl, but I didn't mean to". If you're adult enough to put yourself in adult situations, then yeah, you mean to. It wasn't an accident, it was a stupid consequence of intoxication. It's not like "that cat ran right in front of me and I hit it w/my car"...there's no "That penis was right in front of me and I had to sit on it" or "I was just minding my own business and suddenly outa nowhere this vagina was around my penis". If you're given something on the sly and don't realize it, that's hard to fault--and I'd be looking for a better class of friends or hang outs.

This.
I'm also having a hard time understanding occurrences where "he/she suddenly kissed me".
If it's truly "sudden", your lips will have swells or blisters to show for it, due to speed needed for it to constitute a "sudden" movement.
In most cases you can see and smell it from a miles away (OK, maybe more like a couple of feet away), but there will be enough time to see it coming and dodge, unless, you know, your brain just takes longer to process things than most people. But it's nice to see things happen according to our (albeit secret) wish without having to take responsibility for it, right?

But it's true, that's such bull when people say "I didn't mean for it to happen, it just happened." Oh bull$hit. There are about 10,000 points when you can stop yourself. The idea that your thoughts, your brain, your body, your self, are things you have no control over; that's nonsense. We're not animals, we're humans with the ability to reason and act upon that reasoning.

So true.
Difficult to expect people to respect someone who cannot respect/own up to his/her own action and decision.

 

[azstonie]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Thank you for responding. I was wondering if no one else found the comments disturbing.

+1 and adding in creepy. Creepy, disturbing, way TMI. If we were all sitting at a table at, say, Starbucks, and the fantasy sex/disturbing sex/scenarios around which to have same, well that would clear the table of its PS occupants in about 2 seconds flat. Crickets ensue.

 

[D_]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

Wow Perry. Did you read what I said?

Or are you going to throw things back at me and learn NOTHING?

Somehow this sounds a bit harsh...
Maybe I'm missing something/unable to comprehend some of what you or Perry had written.
Granted it's a bit TMI, but we could let him know nicely since it's possible that he didn't know...

Perry, your posts may have been too case specific and the content/order of content may have made some people uncomfortable.
May be time to move on (from this topic I mean).

 

[missy]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I have no idea why rape was ever brought up in this thread. Rape is not consensual sex and to suggest otherwise is sickening.

Ugh, I don't know how I missed this but OMG that is unbelievably upsetting. How anyone can think that being raped is cheating on your spouse is beyond rational and I would go as far as to say anyone who thinks this way is an incredibly mentally ill individual.

 

[Rhea]

Re: POLL Would You Want To Know If Your SO Was Having An Aff

I'm also having a hard time understanding occurrences where "he/she suddenly kissed me".
If it's truly "sudden", your lips will have swells or blisters to show for it, due to speed needed for it to constitute a "sudden" movement.
In most cases you can see and smell it from a miles away (OK, maybe more like a couple of feet away), but there will be enough time to see it coming and dodge, unless, you know, your brain just takes longer to process things than most people. But it's nice to see things happen according to our (albeit secret) wish without having to take responsibility for it, right?

This reminds me a funny situation right after college. I was out with a group of friends and truly was suddenly kissed while standing at a pub ordering my first drink. The guy cracked a joke, I laughed, turned my head away to check where the bar keeper was, turned back and the guy kissed me. My not kissing back and looking shocked did the trick. He finally picked up on social cues that just because a woman laughs at a funny comment doesn't mean she wants to be kissed. Stranger things than an socially awkward person not picking up on cues has happened. No swelling, no blistering; he wasn't violent and at a packed pub I couldn't easily move. I didn't see it coming from feet away. Luckily my then boyfriend, now husband just showed concern about my well being and not if I did anything to deserve it. I process information at a fairly standard rate.