Guns Rarely Used to Kill Criminals ... 1 vs. 112

[packrat]

And we can't ignore borders and all the other things mentioned. I said and have said a hundred times, it ALL has to be taken into account. ALL of it. All. Not one part. All. That means the whole shebang. B/c by ignoring one thing, you're allowing by default, thousands of other things to happen or have the potential to happen. If you ignore borders and the weapons being brought across borders--that solves nothing. If you ignore gang crime, that solves nothing. If you ignore drugs, that solves nothing. It's all tied together. If it's not ok for one kid to be shot, then it's not ok for any of them to be shot and we need to figure out where the guns are that are shooting the kids and find a way to stop it. Not find a way to stop one kid from being shot at the expense of other kids. If 5000 kids are shot in gang related gun crimes during a year, and we focus on 20 kids who are shot in let's say domestics, that sends the message that the 5000 are not as important as the 20. They're all important. But for whatever reason, our focus continues to be on the 20, rather than the 5000 *AND* 20. We think that making the 20 not happen means the 5000 won't happen. And that's not going to work.

 

[packrat]

I've never understood why the focus is on say...my husband and I, as a group of people who are "addicted" to their guns and don't want them taken away. Or my mom and dad. But yet...the gang members who attack each other and shoot each other and do drive by's and plenty of innocent people are shot daily, drug dealers who carry, people in like, the freaking mafia, nobody mentions that they kill people too. And you'd have a hard time taking them away from them. And yeah, if you have $34k to spend on a gun, you quite very possibly could be a part of those groups I just mentioned, and quite able to spend that kind of money on a gun, and quite willing and able to use the gun against another human. It's not like making a gun thousands of dollars prevents shit from happening--there's always going to be someone willing to sell it cheaper under the table to someone willing to buy it under the table. Smuggling will continue. And probably the response would be then is "omg he bought a gun illegally and is now out shooting clay pigeons omg omg omg he broke the law" rather than the cry of "omg he bought a gun illegally and is being used in gang wars and has killed two people"

That's what I mean by the focus.

My focus is not on the good responsible folks.
The criminals and nutjobs are the ones who must find it MUCH more difficult or impossible to get guns.
Cutting them off means cutting everyone off.
Sorry.

Again, it is the bad gun owners who who are going to ruin it for everyone.

And that's fine-but 99% of what I hear about isn't about the criminals and nutjobs, or the drug dealers or the ones smuggling or anything else-it's centered on a certain group of people, and it's centered around that certain group of people having a certain mindset. There's no cry of "take guns away from criminals" there's a cry of "you ignorant asses and your gun addiction are getting people killed". *my* guns aren't the ones out killing people. But that's where everyone looks-at me, suzy homemaker, who owns a gun. Much the same as I've posted about before, not one person talks about the kids who are killed every year in drive by's by people who own guns illegally. Or the people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get shot by people who have illegal weapons. The focus is always on the legally obtained firearms. Or the fact that "hey this guy broke into so and so's house and stole a gun and shot someone." ok..so the focus is on the gun, not the fact that if'n he'd not have broken into my home in the first place, nobody would've gotten shot. It's was begotten illegally-from someone who had it legally. That doesn't make the one who owned it legally at fault or the root of all evil or the cause of the problems. Focus.

The only way to keep guns out of the bad hands is to keep them out of all hands.

And so we need to find a way to do that. Which entails a whole lotta thinkin and smartness on both sides, and it entails a whole lotta work on both sides--b/c there's a whole lotta people who have them illegally that can just say what who me? nah, I don't have any guns. and smile and walk away. Borders. Smuggling. Drugs. It's all tied in together. The focus will need to be on finding away to accomplish this. And that's not where the focus is, from what I've seen. There is no magic wand, Jeanie isn't coming out of her bottle to say yes master and blink and it's done. Very few people are willing and able to discuss actual "doing" of anything in a calm and rational manner.

 

[Loves Vintage]

I have a friend, she had 3 sons, all good young men.. the middle one got in trouble at his school for helping out another classmate, his intentions were the best, he was 15. School calls Dad, Dad goes ballistic, son goes into Dad's room, unlocks Dad and Mom's guns, goes outside and shoots himself.

I'll take border problems, I'll take my chances on a robbery in my house, I'll take my chances period, if I could just have prevented this one death by a child.. a child who was such a high achiever, a beautiful human being, a sweet boy.. yes he may have killed himself anyway, but studies show that people who commit suicide over the course of minutes and have access to guns are more prone to die than those who do not have access to firearms.

A family destroyed, a life cut off.. a real shame. a tragedy. This triggering event led to his running for the gun. very very painful. I'm for a serious halt of gun sales in the USA, licensing, training.. and for parents/caregivers training on the signs of depression in kids.

Tekate - That is so sad. I mourn in my heart upon reading of such a tragic loss. I mourn in my heart daily when I read similar stories in the news. For a long time (for years, when I was younger), I had myself on a news fast to avoid encountering such sadness, but now, I allow myself to feel it. For every victim I learn of. I don't know why other law-abiding, sane-seeming others don't realize or acknowledge that the same could have to them, within their decent law-abiding families. The constant deaths, whether self-inflicted, inflicted by a madman, a drug dealer or a sane person who loses it for just a moment. A moment that can never be taken back. This is the tragedy of America. It is the sadness that we so often don't allow ourselves to feel or even acknowledge, and I guess that's part of why it continues. That and the NRA. And I agree with you, telephone89, it will continue for at least another generation.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I've never understood why the focus is on say...my husband and I, as a group of people who are "addicted" to their guns and don't want them taken away. Or my mom and dad. But yet...the gang members who attack each other and shoot each other and do drive by's and plenty of innocent people are shot daily, drug dealers who carry, people in like, the freaking mafia, nobody mentions that they kill people too. And you'd have a hard time taking them away from them. And yeah, if you have $34k to spend on a gun, you quite very possibly could be a part of those groups I just mentioned, and quite able to spend that kind of money on a gun, and quite willing and able to use the gun against another human. It's not like making a gun thousands of dollars prevents shit from happening--there's always going to be someone willing to sell it cheaper under the table to someone willing to buy it under the table. Smuggling will continue. And probably the response would be then is "omg he bought a gun illegally and is now out shooting clay pigeons omg omg omg he broke the law" rather than the cry of "omg he bought a gun illegally and is being used in gang wars and has killed two people"

That's what I mean by the focus.

My focus is not on the good responsible folks.
The criminals and nutjobs are the ones who must find it MUCH more difficult or impossible to get guns.
Cutting them off means cutting everyone off.
Sorry.

Again, it is the bad gun owners who who are going to ruin it for everyone.

And that's fine-but 99% of what I hear about isn't about the criminals and nutjobs, or the drug dealers or the ones smuggling or anything else-it's centered on a certain group of people, and it's centered around that certain group of people having a certain mindset. There's no cry of "take guns away from criminals" there's a cry of "you ignorant asses and your gun addiction are getting people killed". *my* guns aren't the ones out killing people. But that's where everyone looks-at me, suzy homemaker, who owns a gun. Much the same as I've posted about before, not one person talks about the kids who are killed every year in drive by's by people who own guns illegally. Or the people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get shot by people who have illegal weapons. The focus is always on the legally obtained firearms. Or the fact that "hey this guy broke into so and so's house and stole a gun and shot someone." ok..so the focus is on the gun, not the fact that if'n he'd not have broken into my home in the first place, nobody would've gotten shot. It's was begotten illegally-from someone who had it legally. That doesn't make the one who owned it legally at fault or the root of all evil or the cause of the problems. Focus.

This is exactly what my post talked about, on page one I think. I work in Brooklyn, it's illegal to carry a weapon here unless you are an officer and people are killed in my neighborhood weekly. Usually innocent bystanders. A man has been riding around Flatbush Brooklyn for a few weeks now on a freaking bicycle with a handgun and robbing people. These are the people IM concerned with. This is why I would rather see no guns. Students who attended my school have a high likely hood to be shot or arrested with a gun before they are 18. We had 12 year olds hiding guns across the street from the school in people's garden's to go after some other kid after school. It's insane. And this is WITH the incredibly strict NY gun laws. Unless the laws are the same across the country people just buy them at Walmart in some other state and drive them in. I keep my fingers crossed everyday walking to my car.

 

[Sha]

I've never understood why the focus is on say...my husband and I, as a group of people who are "addicted" to their guns and don't want them taken away. Or my mom and dad. But yet...the gang members who attack each other and shoot each other and do drive by's and plenty of innocent people are shot daily, drug dealers who carry, people in like, the freaking mafia, nobody mentions that they kill people too. And you'd have a hard time taking them away from them. And yeah, if you have $34k to spend on a gun, you quite very possibly could be a part of those groups I just mentioned, and quite able to spend that kind of money on a gun, and quite willing and able to use the gun against another human. It's not like making a gun thousands of dollars prevents shit from happening--there's always going to be someone willing to sell it cheaper under the table to someone willing to buy it under the table. Smuggling will continue. And probably the response would be then is "omg he bought a gun illegally and is now out shooting clay pigeons omg omg omg he broke the law" rather than the cry of "omg he bought a gun illegally and is being used in gang wars and has killed two people"

That's what I mean by the focus.

My focus is not on the good responsible folks.
The criminals and nutjobs are the ones who must find it MUCH more difficult or impossible to get guns.
Cutting them off means cutting everyone off.
Sorry.

Again, it is the bad gun owners who who are going to ruin it for everyone.

And that's fine-but 99% of what I hear about isn't about the criminals and nutjobs, or the drug dealers or the ones smuggling or anything else-it's centered on a certain group of people, and it's centered around that certain group of people having a certain mindset. There's no cry of "take guns away from criminals" there's a cry of "you ignorant asses and your gun addiction are getting people killed". *my* guns aren't the ones out killing people. But that's where everyone looks-at me, suzy homemaker, who owns a gun. Much the same as I've posted about before, not one person talks about the kids who are killed every year in drive by's by people who own guns illegally. Or the people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get shot by people who have illegal weapons. The focus is always on the legally obtained firearms. Or the fact that "hey this guy broke into so and so's house and stole a gun and shot someone." ok..so the focus is on the gun, not the fact that if'n he'd not have broken into my home in the first place, nobody would've gotten shot. It's was begotten illegally-from someone who had it legally. That doesn't make the one who owned it legally at fault or the root of all evil or the cause of the problems. Focus.

Legal firearms do a lot of damage too, as in the recent Charleston shooting. And of course, illegal firearms probably do more. I don't know if you can really separate the 'good guns' (meaning legal firearms) from the 'bad guns'. I look at it in a holistic way - in my opinion, all guns are very dangerous and should be restricted -whether they're owned by Mrs. Suzy Homemaker or the Baddest Criminal out there. Every gun has the potential to do serious harm, including Suzy Homemaker's gun (think of the story one poster just shared of a teen who shot himself with his Dad's gun.. also children playing with them and being killed, spouses killing each other during arguments, teens finding the gun and carrying it to school..?) There was a story on Yahoo today of a man who killed himself, his wife, and their two children on Father's Day too... .

Also, I'm pretty sure the 'good gun' market affects the 'bad gun' market. The relatively high number of legal guns and the ease with which they can be obtained (compared to other countries) means that many of these guns will easily (and cheaply?) find their way to the black market, across the Borders, and into other countries around the world. I don't think you can separate the legal market from the illegal market. The relatively free access to guns in the U.S muddies the water everywhere- which brings us back to the whole point we started at. I really think the issue lies with the 2nd amendment, but being that things are so far gone, I agree that it will be challenging to dial things back. But generally, I think that if guns were a lot harder to get then it would make it harder/more expensive for everyone, including criminals...but not impossible, of course.

 

[House Cat]

I am not sure that I am focused on the law abiding gun owners, although it would seem that way on this thread. I do think that it seems that we focus on the law abiding because they tend to be the advocates for gun ownership. I haven't had the opportunity to debate gun ownership with a gang member/ illegal gun owner yet, but I certainly welcome such an event!

 

[jordyonbass]

This thread has opened my eyes about the cycle of the gun protection mentality for many US citizens; everyone has guns therefore everyone needs guns to protect themselves from everyone else...because they have guns. I also find it perculiar that many in the US seem to think they need their guns for protection from criminals, this may sound condescending but I genuinely wonder if they know that criminals also exist outside the US as well. The regular, suburban couple or family just doesn't have any need for a gun IMO.

Maybe it's just the Australian culture ingrained in me, but not once have I thought about having a gun for protection from a person, the thought of that scares me - I'd rather be robbed of my cash and phone than shoot someone to be honest. The only killer in Australia that would make me want to carry a gun is a croc - and even then I'd be very apprehensive about using a gun. Just like with criminals, if you miss your shot then you've got bigger problems than when you started. A tense situation may just turn into a lethal situation.

 

[arkieb1]

There needs to be not only, a whole lot of thinking but a whole lot of resources thrown at the problem. That is the second part of the problem - not only is it unpopular so politicians leave it alone but it's going to be super expensive to start policing the boarders, to start taking guns away from gangs and criminals over and over and over again until they become much much harder to get and to have a national register of all the good gun owners.

Tax payers and politicians don't want to spend the money needed to created more jails, to create teams and task forces to stop rings of drug dealers and what will become gun runners bring guns over the boarder, and to provide more police in general on the street to monitor the situation. But if you keep confiscating guns from criminals and make them much harder and much more expensive to obtain both legally and illegally then eventually it's going to have an impact. Even then you are never going to remove all guns you are just going to remove some of the guns because compared to Australia you have so many of them, and a country right next door that facilitates illegal smuggling. But rather than saying it is impossible, surely getting rid of a lot of guns, and making them much harder to access is going be better than getting rid of none at all....

It's going to be a slow expensive process but if no one does anything in the next 5 to 10 years then think of how much worse and more difficult it will become. The argument that it is easier to do nothing than to do something is not going to fix anything.

 

[distracts]

I have a friend, she had 3 sons, all good young men.. the middle one got in trouble at his school for helping out another classmate, his intentions were the best, he was 15. School calls Dad, Dad goes ballistic, son goes into Dad's room, unlocks Dad and Mom's guns, goes outside and shoots himself.

I'll take border problems, I'll take my chances on a robbery in my house, I'll take my chances period, if I could just have prevented this one death by a child.. a child who was such a high achiever, a beautiful human being, a sweet boy.. yes he may have killed himself anyway, but studies show that people who commit suicide over the course of minutes and have access to guns are more prone to die than those who do not have access to firearms.

A family destroyed, a life cut off.. a real shame. a tragedy. This triggering event led to his running for the gun. very very painful. I'm for a serious halt of gun sales in the USA, licensing, training.. and for parents/caregivers training on the signs of depression in kids.

Thank you for being the one person other than me to really address suicide. As I said in my post, I know from my personal experiences that it is so often just a momentary madness, and blocking access to the easiest way to kill yourself will result in many lives saved. I think losing the one justifiable homicide in defense of self or others is worth it for all the lives that could be saved by preventing suicide, accidental deaths, and legal-firearm murders. I'm very sorry for your friend's loss.

This thread has opened my eyes about the cycle of the gun protection mentality for many US citizens; everyone has guns therefore everyone needs guns to protect themselves from everyone else...because they have guns. I also find it perculiar that many in the US seem to think they need their guns for protection from criminals, this may sound condescending but I genuinely wonder if they know that criminals also exist outside the US as well. The regular, suburban couple or family just doesn't have any need for a gun IMO.

The other funny thing is that the people the criminals are killing are mostly other criminals, or people they socially associate with who are aware of their criminality. The average citizen has about as much of a chance of dying in a gang-related shooting, or whatever, as they do of being caught out in one of these white-kid-snapped mass-murder scenarios. And if you can prevent one of those and not the other... why not prevent the one you can?

 

[kenny]

Maybe it's just the Australian culture ingrained in me, but not once have I thought about having a gun for protection from a person, the thought of that scares me - I'd rather be robbed of my cash and phone than shoot someone to be honest. .

I'm a proud patriotic American, and a veteran, and feel exactly as you do.

 

[Tekate]

LovesVintage, thank you, it was such a tragedy.. his ability to access guns allowed him to do what he did. I wish no one has to ever experience the pain, my friend has never been the same.. a shadow.

 

[Tekate]

Distracts, I agree wholeheartedly with all you say.. Without access to guns it is more difficult to commit suicide, my friends son was so ashamed to get into trouble at school, he was momentarily insane.. a very very high achiever.. he may have been depressed before and this culminated in previous thoughts of suicide but his mom had never heard him or see him being depressed.. such a loss.

I wish for America to be safe, happy, grow and all those good things, I want our police to be safe, and I think limited guns is a good start.

Peace.

 

[jordyonbass]

Maybe it's just the Australian culture ingrained in me, but not once have I thought about having a gun for protection from a person, the thought of that scares me - I'd rather be robbed of my cash and phone than shoot someone to be honest. .

I'm a proud patriotic American, and a veteran, and feel exactly as you do.

First of all Kenny, despite being from a different country, let me first commend and thank you for your service to your country. Anyone who is willing to embark on a battlefield and potentially risk their life for the greater good of those around them is a much braver person than I am and the servicemen like yourself and my grandfather here in Australia helped build the countries to what they are now.

Would you agree that 'the punishment does not fit the crime' when it comes to shooting and potentially killing someone for robbing/mugging you? As much as that person committing the crime is a violation of your rights as a citizen, I do not feel that killing the person is a justified reaction.

I've been an avid outdoorsman my whole life and been in precarious situations with wild, dangerous animals that could have gone very wrong and didn't. For example, snorkeling in the ocean and filming a Marlin as a 700lb Mako shark swims within 3 feet of my head, mouth open to attack the Marlin. Or fishing in a creek in Cape york with only a small climbing path out and a crocodile 15 foot long lying only 10 feet off the bank, eyeing me off and starting to come closer. Or a deadly, venomous snake that has made it's way into my house and won't let me grab him to get him out of the laundry without having a bite at me.
Those situations scared me more than any person ever has and I didn't need a gun to deal with any of it. In fact, we never had a gun in any of those situations. The only protection we had against the animals were our knives and we didn't need them.

 

[kenny]

I don't own a gun, and wouldn't.
No reason to.

 

[jordyonbass]

Distracts, I agree wholeheartedly with all you say.. Without access to guns it is more difficult to commit suicide, my friends son was so ashamed to get into trouble at school, he was momentarily insane.. a very very high achiever.. he may have been depressed before and this culminated in previous thoughts of suicide but his mom had never heard him or see him being depressed.. such a loss.

I wish for America to be safe, happy, grow and all those good things, I want our police to be safe, and I think limited guns is a good start.

Peace.

As I previously mentioned, Australian gun laws are the way forward for the USA in my humble opinion. Guns aren't illegal here, it's more that the procedure and red tape that is involved in getting one is so rigorous and frustrating to deal with that the vast majority of the population decided that it just isn't worth the stuffing around to go eradicate pests. You can still do that with hunting dogs and knives.

 

[Maria D]

Distracts and Tekate, in a different thread on this same topic (probably started after the American tragedy du jour, I can't remember) the discussion came around to an opinion that suicide by gun deaths needs to be addressed as suicide, not a gun control issue, because a suicidal person would just find some other way to kill themself. This opinion is common and so mistaken. At the time I posted a link to this article, it's worth the read. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/

Distracts, I'm glad you are taking care of your mental health.

 

[arkieb1]

Distracts, I agree wholeheartedly with all you say.. Without access to guns it is more difficult to commit suicide, my friends son was so ashamed to get into trouble at school, he was momentarily insane.. a very very high achiever.. he may have been depressed before and this culminated in previous thoughts of suicide but his mom had never heard him or see him being depressed.. such a loss.

I wish for America to be safe, happy, grow and all those good things, I want our police to be safe, and I think limited guns is a good start.

Peace.

As I previously mentioned, Australian gun laws are the way forward for the USA in my humble opinion. Guns aren't illegal here, it's more that the procedure and red tape that is involved in getting one is so rigorous and frustrating to deal with that the vast majority of the population decided that it just isn't worth the stuffing around to go eradicate pests. You can still do that with hunting dogs and knives.

This is all true but you cannot over simplify the situation nor is it exactly fair to compare the US to Australia either. When new regulations were passed here, we had far far less guns here per head of population, we had less of a gun culture to start with and we as everyone else has pointed out are a big Island with a better than average boarder patrol and a better than average policing system. The US has none of that and a much wider, much more difficult task than we ever did. I believe like you do they need to do something but it's never going to be a quick or an easy solution and I don't think they are ever going to achieve what we did here, certainly not in the next few years. They have higher unemployment rates, more crime overall, a broken welfare system, overflowing jails and a heap of other demographic and endemic social problems and differences to other countries that mean it's both harder to fix and more of a political hand grenade.

Don't get me wrong I still firmly believe it's better to do something than do nothing at all, and I am a very vocal advocate for gun control, but it's naive to think they can just adopt what we did here. Like our gun Amnesty for example - how many people do you think would actually do that in the US with the us versus everyone else (who is out to get us) mentality and the "we need guns for self defence" I just don't think that works in the US, certainly not the way it did here.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Ugh, I did not want to come back into this thread, but it's killing me to see the crux of the problem only lightly touched on in this thread. I don't mean to sound cliche, but yanking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens and stripping them of (like it or not) their constitutional right is on par with banning spoons to keep people from being fat. I realize it may work in Australia, but as it was pointed out, our country shares a lot of border with the home of many major drug cartels with no regard for their own or our laws. Unless a wall is built as deep in the ground as it is high, and appropriate resources put in place to guard that border, there is no stopping the flow of illegal firearms into our country. Why? Demand.

Demand for what? Drugs. So long as there is demand for drugs in our country, there will be people who demand money to distribute and deal those drugs, and it's a big business, albeit illegal. Just like we take out insurance to protect our homes, guns are cartels' insurance to protect their investment, so they happily supply them to make sure the product gets where it needs to. Think I'm wrong? Try walking into any Walmart, Dick's, or locally owned gun store and buying an AK47 or fully automatic weapon. You won't, you can't. The red tape to legally purchase one of these firearms is so complex, and the costs to purchase one so high, that only a proportionate "handful" of people have one (e.g., collectors, and they aren't the ones shooting up schools, churches and theaters) ... Except the gangs, who have tons of them. So, if you want to curb illegal demand for guns, you need to get to the source of one of the problems - demand for drugs. And how long have we had a "war on drugs"? Yea, exactly ... and now we legalize pot. Way to go America! I give it 10 years till you can pick up an eight ball at 7-11.

Now, there is another side to gun debate related to the media-sensationalized mass murders you see on TV. With the exception of terrorists (Ft Hood, Boston marathon, beheadings), every single one of them seen in recent years is tied to one thing - mental illness. The Newtown school shooter, Charleston, Columbine kids, workplace slayings, and the list goes on and on. But why is nothing done about this? Because all plausible solutions would compromise the rights of those suffering with mental illness. Why aren't compromises made in THAT department? Why aren't people with documented cases of mental illness mandated to be on a national registry, attend mandated frequent psychological counseling, etc. Why aren't there mandatory screenings for all Americans to detect those who pose a danger to themselves and others, and add them to said "list" to be monitored? Isn't stripping that group of its rights worth the life of one child? Because it compromises their rights to privacy? If THAT is not open to compromise, then I don't see why my right to protect myself against those possible threats IS open to compromise. I am a law abiding citizen, veteran, and gun owner who has taken the time and expense to attend training, ensure my firearms ARE legally acquired, and registered locally and with the BATF. The odds are good that people like me and my partner aren't going on a mass killing spree anytime soon.

My Partner is also in law enforcement, and it is horrifying the number of people in our country with complete disregard for others' lives - whether it be due to criminal mentality or mental health issues (and by that, I don't mean to imply that every person suffering with mental health issues is plotting a mass killing spree). But you cannot think for a second that stripping law abiding citizens of their firearms will solve the problem without tackling the other two, which ARE the source of the problem. And so long as our elected officials require armed guards to protect them and their kids, I deserve NO less the same right to defend myself and my family from those same threats, and no, I don't accept taking a knife to a gun fight as a plausible means of self defense, nor peeing on myself to thwart an attacker.

Lastly, the Second Amendment is NOT about hunting. It was specifically crafted to allow citizens the right to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. And whether you agree or not, it is my belief we are in the midst of that very vision our forefathers established the 2A for. Admittedly, I am not up to snuff on my Australian history, but I agree it is far from an apples to apples comparison with the U.S. in terms of origin, evolution, and political influence. And make no mistake, our liberal government does NOT care about guns, mass murders, etc as a result of guns. If it did, it had prime opportunity to do something about it the first two years our President was in office with the support of a liberal Congress and Senate. They could have passed any law they wanted, and they didn't. He could establish an executive order like he has so many other nonsensical things, and he doesn't. Why? MONEY! Their pockets are as lined if not more than their conservative counterparts to keep the very laws and bans proposed in this thread from ever seeing the light of day, because it doesn't take as much to sway a conservative to honor constitutional rights.

Just to clarify, and again answer HC's question - no, I do NOT want to see any innocent life lost at the hands of ANY weapon or person - be them a terrorist, someone suffering from mental illness, a drunk driver, crackhead, cartel, etc. And that is why I choose to protect my family to the extent possible within the limits of the law. But taking away the firearms of law abiding citizens WITHOUT FIRST addressing the perpetrators of crime is only serving you a security blanket that is so very far from bulletproof. You deal with the source of the problems, and you will see far less demand for guns illegally coming into this country, and a significant reduction in the CNN & Fox News Alerts reporting mass shootings.

 

[arkieb1]

We might sit on different sides of the fence, but I agree with you JoCoJenn - no govt on either side of politics in your country is willing to commit the financial/economic resources to tackle let alone fix the problems we are all listing, or the deeper layers of problems that exist hand in hand with guns, crime and the lack of resources for the mentally ill. The thing that is most disturbing from an outsider's perspective is it can only get worse. Ignoring the underlying problems are not going to make them go away.

We have a lot of illegal drugs here too, Ice in particular is destroying some rural communities I can think of, but we have way less gun related crimes irrespective of the drugs because guns are much harder to access here.

 

[packrat]

JoCoJenn-might you be up for a wee bit of canoodling later? Thank you for your post.

Arkie, you get it. There's so much to look at and work on.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Packrat - you got it! but only if you let me try on your beautiful 3 stone ring, to which I am planning an "inspired by" ring of my very own. I totally lust over that gorgeous, pretty sparkly!

Okay, back on topic ... Believe me, I sincerely wish we lived in a world closer to that which I grew up, where kids could play outside safely till dark and didn't need to be on a leash, where we could leave our house and car doors unlocked at night, where we knew our neighbors because we spent time outside as well talking with them, where the person defending the flag was a bigger hero than the guy trampling it because it's his "right", when people had common sense and understood consequences and integrity, and didn't play the blame game when they faced one because of a lack of the other. And say what you will, but the further we stray from the fundamentals and ideals for which this country was founded, it will only continue to spiral further and further out of control until "Old Glory is nothing but a tattered dust rag. I just hope I don't live to see *that* America, and fear for my daughter and her kids who will have to endure it.

 

[packrat]

You're on!

 

[Tekate]

Maria: Thank you so much, it was a very interesting read and an eye opener. One moment (or a few minutes) of being ashamed or very upset and a young life ends. I understand about police, safety etc. But I really wish laws were much much stricter. Again, thank you so much for the pointer to the article.

Distracts and Tekate, in a different thread on this same topic (probably started after the American tragedy du jour, I can't remember) the discussion came around to an opinion that suicide by gun deaths needs to be addressed as suicide, not a gun control issue, because a suicidal person would just find some other way to kill themself. This opinion is common and so mistaken. At the time I posted a link to this article, it's worth the read. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/

Distracts, I'm glad you are taking care of your mental health.

 

[packrat]

I wish a lot of laws were stricter-not just w/guns. Across the board full stop, there are things that need to be stricter. For instance, there should never ever ever be a time where you read that someone has had multiple OWI's. Ever. But there's people that have them up in the double digits! People are literally allowed to get away w/murder, you know? It makes my head spin. Our rights, at times, prevent the good from happening, I feel. We're "right"ed ourselves into a bit of a pickle.

 

[telephone89]

I wish a lot of laws were stricter-not just w/guns. Across the board full stop, there are things that need to be stricter. For instance, there should never ever ever be a time where you read that someone has had multiple OWI's. Ever. But there's people that have them up in the double digits! People are literally allowed to get away w/murder, you know? It makes my head spin. Our rights, at times, prevent the good from happening, I feel. We're "right"ed ourselves into a bit of a pickle.

One thing I do like about the american justice system is how (in general) they treat murder/killing offences. Real jail time. I love Canada, but I really hate how light our justice system is in some aspects. For example, there was a woman who strangled her 14y/o child to death, she got probation. Drunk driver plowed into a crowd of people and killed someone, got a year of jail. It makes me sick that people can commit such henious crimes and get away with minimal affect on their life. Especially while someone else lost theirs, and their family and friends will have a much longer lasting gash.

 

[House Cat]

Ugh, I did not want to come back into this thread, but it's killing me to see the crux of the problem only lightly touched on in this thread. I don't mean to sound cliche, but yanking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens and stripping them of (like it or not) their constitutional right is on par with banning spoons to keep people from being fat. I realize it may work in Australia, but as it was pointed out, our country shares a lot of border with the home of many major drug cartels with no regard for their own or our laws. Unless a wall is built as deep in the ground as it is high, and appropriate resources put in place to guard that border, there is no stopping the flow of illegal firearms into our country. Why? Demand.

Demand for what? Drugs. So long as there is demand for drugs in our country, there will be people who demand money to distribute and deal those drugs, and it's a big business, albeit illegal. Just like we take out insurance to protect our homes, guns are cartels' insurance to protect their investment, so they happily supply them to make sure the product gets where it needs to. Think I'm wrong? Try walking into any Walmart, Dick's, or locally owned gun store and buying an AK47 or fully automatic weapon. You won't, you can't. The red tape to legally purchase one of these firearms is so complex, and the costs to purchase one so high, that only a proportionate "handful" of people have one (e.g., collectors, and they aren't the ones shooting up schools, churches and theaters) ... Except the gangs, who have tons of them. So, if you want to curb illegal demand for guns, you need to get to the source of one of the problems - demand for drugs. And how long have we had a "war on drugs"? Yea, exactly ... and now we legalize pot. Way to go America! I give it 10 years till you can pick up an eight ball at 7-11.

Now, there is another side to gun debate related to the media-sensationalized mass murders you see on TV. With the exception of terrorists (Ft Hood, Boston marathon, beheadings), every single one of them seen in recent years is tied to one thing - mental illness. The Newtown school shooter, Charleston, Columbine kids, workplace slayings, and the list goes on and on. But why is nothing done about this? Because all plausible solutions would compromise the rights of those suffering with mental illness. Why aren't compromises made in THAT department? Why aren't people with documented cases of mental illness mandated to be on a national registry, attend mandated frequent psychological counseling, etc. Why aren't there mandatory screenings for all Americans to detect those who pose a danger to themselves and others, and add them to said "list" to be monitored? Isn't stripping that group of its rights worth the life of one child? Because it compromises their rights to privacy? If THAT is not open to compromise, then I don't see why my right to protect myself against those possible threats IS open to compromise. I am a law abiding citizen, veteran, and gun owner who has taken the time and expense to attend training, ensure my firearms ARE legally acquired, and registered locally and with the BATF. The odds are good that people like me and my partner aren't going on a mass killing spree anytime soon.

My Partner is also in law enforcement, and it is horrifying the number of people in our country with complete disregard for others' lives - whether it be due to criminal mentality or mental health issues (and by that, I don't mean to imply that every person suffering with mental health issues is plotting a mass killing spree). But you cannot think for a second that stripping law abiding citizens of their firearms will solve the problem without tackling the other two, which ARE the source of the problem. And so long as our elected officials require armed guards to protect them and their kids, I deserve NO less the same right to defend myself and my family from those same threats, and no, I don't accept taking a knife to a gun fight as a plausible means of self defense, nor peeing on myself to thwart an attacker.

Lastly, the Second Amendment is NOT about hunting. It was specifically crafted to allow citizens the right to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. And whether you agree or not, it is my belief we are in the midst of that very vision our forefathers established the 2A for. Admittedly, I am not up to snuff on my Australian history, but I agree it is far from an apples to apples comparison with the U.S. in terms of origin, evolution, and political influence. And make no mistake, our liberal government does NOT care about guns, mass murders, etc as a result of guns. If it did, it had prime opportunity to do something about it the first two years our President was in office with the support of a liberal Congress and Senate. They could have passed any law they wanted, and they didn't. He could establish an executive order like he has so many other nonsensical things, and he doesn't. Why? MONEY! Their pockets are as lined if not more than their conservative counterparts to keep the very laws and bans proposed in this thread from ever seeing the light of day, because it doesn't take as much to sway a conservative to honor constitutional rights.

Just to clarify, and again answer HC's question - no, I do NOT want to see any innocent life lost at the hands of ANY weapon or person - be them a terrorist, someone suffering from mental illness, a drunk driver, crackhead, cartel, etc. And that is why I choose to protect my family to the extent possible within the limits of the law. But taking away the firearms of law abiding citizens WITHOUT FIRST addressing the perpetrators of crime is only serving you a security blanket that is so very far from bulletproof. You deal with the source of the problems, and you will see far less demand for guns illegally coming into this country, and a significant reduction in the CNN & Fox News Alerts reporting mass shootings.

I agree with most everything you have said here, which proves that even though I am over on the side for more gun reform, my beliefs are pretty much in line with those who believe in their right to bear arms.

I agree that if we *just* pull guns off the streets, a huge black market for firearms will open up like we have never seen. Sigh.

The root, those who perpetrate crime, is a HUGE issue that no one really wants to touch...it seems. Our society is full of sickness of the soul, which I believe leads to the desperation to commit crime. Our country/politics is too divided to really effect real change for the suffering.

So here we sit, on the opposite sides of WANTING guns and I think it maybe boils down to personal experience. I have a step dad who committed suicide four years ago with a .45. The bullet went through him and through a window, then it hit the neighbor's house. The damage to their house was just 2 - 3 inches from their living room window. In other words, he could have killed an innocent person too. My mom was in the house at the time. She was crossing her own living room and walking toward their master bedroom/bathroom combo to where he was when she heard the gun fire. I remember that awful time, the numbing shock we walked in for almost two years, and me, just wanting one more minute from God. One more minute, even thirty seconds would have given my step dad back to us because my mom would have walked into that bathroom and stopped him. I begged God to take us back and give us that minute. But instead we didn't get that minute and that gun took my step dad in less than a second.

And that is why I can't like guns. The wounds they inflict are instant and finite. There is no second chance. And maybe that is why some people LIKE guns, but for me it is the very reason why I hate them.

 

[packrat]

Telephone, you'd be surprised at the number of people who have committed some horrendous crimes, who might be sitting next to you at a restaurant here...while someone who ran a stop sign sits in jail. You can rape, kill, mess w/little kids, and you can very easily not do any real jail time. Anymore it seems like a Russian roulette type deal. You'll either get in trouble or you won't..and for some, the possibility that they won't get into trouble or get into minor trouble, is worth the crime.

HC, notice how those of us who are able to see both sides, who can talk about things...when it comes right down to it, we're the *last* people who anyone really wants to hear from and the *last* people that anyone will listen to? Far as I'm concerned, it's what the extremes on both sides want. It's the only way to skirt the issues and make it so nothing ever gets done and so neither side really has to make an effort at working toward a solution. Divert the attention from the calm/rational people to the extreme edges.