Quick question about sapphire / AGL vs GIA

[mochiko42]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

 

[eastjavaman]

it is simple, all the gems comes from all parts of the world where GRS and GIA exist there, where AGL is exclusively in USA. So if a gem dealer happens to be in Sri Lanka and the gem is of Sri Lanka origin, it will be strange to send it across the world to USA and back.

that being said, if you have a Pad that is 2ct and to get this extensive report will cost a couple hundred, please check the respective website for their costing. I understand that AGL is a reliable lab, thus, you have to think whether it is worth to spend that kind of extra money, since you have a good vendor and good lab, unless you suspect one of them and would like to get a second opinion.
Origin is a pedigree, but it would not matter if the stone does not have the look. e.g. I would not buy a stone just because it is "Kashmir" or "Mogok, Burma". But origin will matter once you start talking about collector piece, 10+ ct plus Ruby, with exceptional clarity and color then you can start to add the origin as an added value.

Hope this helps.

 

[chrono]

It depends on the quality and your intent. Why are you considering an additional report when you have a perfectly good report? If the colouration is superb, then it might benefit from a comprehensive report should you desire to sell it. I recall that you are currently in Asia, so GIA is probably more widely known and accepted if you need to sell it.

 

[mochiko42]

Thank you very much eastjavaman and Chrono. The additional report would likely be for insurance/appraisal purposes (or for selling should I decide to resell one day) and also because I'm paying for the padparadscha label (otherwise I'd prefer to consider pink sapphires instead at a cheaper price), I'd feel better to have a full report with origin even if the stone is heated. The stone was described as pink orange by AGL but the photos and video look more pink, I can't see the orange color very well on my computer. Since intl shipping is complicated and costly I'm trying to ask as many questions before committing.
Also, does it mean that it's heat only and no diffusion etc if the AGL gem brief states "enhancement: standard- heat only; additional - none".

It's funny, I've bought quite a few CS since joining PS but all were under $1k so I don't have any experience with lab reports for CS, esp for stones that are above $5k.. Whew... Diamonds are a doddle compared with my crash course on CS grading.. [emoji23] [emoji16]

 

[T L]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

 

[pregcurious]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

This is not true. I have a padparadscha with a full AGL prestige report stating it as an unheated "Padparadscha" from Madagascar.

Mochiko: Your AGL brief is sufficient for an appraisal, unless it is exceptionally cut and exceptionally clean and you think that it would warrant the highest grade from AGL on its Prestige report (very few do) and therefore influence its value on an appraisal. The AGL brief is clear on treatment and you need nothing further in that regard (you are correct in your reading that it means it has been heated but in AGL's opinion, it has had no additional treatment). But something you said gave me pause: does the AGL brief state its a padparadscha sapphire or just a pink orange sapphire? I say this because there is a difference. Recently I saw a reputable vendor with a stone that he has had for a long time labeled as a padparadscha sapphire. He now has an AGL brief for it, but AGL did not find it to be a padparadscha sapphire, simply a brownish pink instead. Unfortunately, the vendor is still calling it a padparadscha, which is not, imo, truthful.

Eastjavaman, GIA has offices in Bangkok as well as in the US, so it is internationally recognized.

 

[T L]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

Just to clarify my earlier comments in my reply to you . . .

Some dealers do not consider it a padparadscha if it's not from Sri Lanka, but AGL and others will not use origin as a basis for determining the padparadscha status. That being said, one will pay a premium if the stone IS from Sri Lanka, as African padparadschas (and from other locations) are less per carat, as you have noted yourself. If the stone is expensive, or sold as Sri Lankan, then I would most certainly want origin. It's kind of like Kashmir sapphire, you are paying for that origin, so you want to be sure.

 

[mochiko42]

Hi TL and minous, thanks for chiming in. This is all extremely helpful to my decision-making process. The seller is reputable, and the gem is originally from Pala and represented as Sri Lankan. The Agl sapphire brief does not specify origin, but it says pink-orange and the magic "pad" word. Having said all that, in the photos and video it looks mostly pink/dusty purple to me (I'm not getting the orange which makes it the sunset/salmon), but the vendor is adamant it is 50/50 orange/pink and no purple and no brown - I believe the vendor but with photos and vids showing something different it's difficult for me to judge. It's about $3. 5k/ct and precision cut... I'm wondering if it's worth the $100 intl shipping fee to inspect it upfront even before getting the report.. If I see it as mainly pink then I could get a nice heated pink sapphire for much less per ct.. Actually from this description some of you might guess which stone I'm talking about [emoji51].

 

[eastjavaman]

Eastjavaman, GIA has offices in Bangkok as well as in the US, so it is internationally recognized.

Absolutely Minou, in fact, I would say that AGL is not as widely recognized in this part of the world: Asia, because I have seen a lot of the stones, and most of them either has either GRS, GIA, AIGS, Gubelin, or local lab, but I have yet to see one with AGL report, and the common people that I ask just roll their eyes when I start mentioning AGL.

 

[mochiko42]

Eastjavaman, GIA has offices in Bangkok as well as in the US, so it is internationally recognized.

Absolutely Minou, in fact, I would say that AGL is not as widely recognized in this part of the world: Asia, because I have seen a lot of the stones, and most of them either has either GRS, GIA, AIGS, Gubelin, or local lab, but I have yet to see one with AGL report, and the common people that I ask just roll their eyes when I start mentioning AGL.

that is my observation too. Also, I have seen some gems with Japanese labs reports here. GIA has a campus and grading lab here so you overwhelmingly see GIA stones, unless the stone was evaluated in Europe, Japan or elsewhere.

 

[minousbijoux]

Eastjavaman, GIA has offices in Bangkok as well as in the US, so it is internationally recognized.

Absolutely Minou, in fact, I would say that AGL is not as widely recognized in this part of the world: Asia, because I have seen a lot of the stones, and most of them either has either GRS, GIA, AIGS, Gubelin, or local lab, but I have yet to see one with AGL report, and the common people that I ask just roll their eyes when I start mentioning AGL.

I am so sorry! I got it backwards, as you were very clear in saying that it was GIA which is internationally recognized and AGL which, from your experience, is not. I guess I should read a bit more closely. Sorry.

 

[mochiko42]

Hi all, thank you so much for the input. I don't want to turn this into the PS version of the white/gold - blue/black dress, but when I look at the photos and videos, I still see a primarily pink stone with maybe purple but no orange. i'm still getting a handle on how to interpret gemstone colors in photos and videos, so let me know what you think.., whether it is worth approx $3k/ct for a AGL "pad" even though it is not the lighter tone salmon/sunset color? Vendor says it is 50%-50% pink-orange, and AGL brief says Orange-Pink and "pad" designation. I believe the vendor description, but I hesitate to pull the trigger based on the photo and video, esp since I would require at least a AGL prestige origin report and once you factor in I could be out up to $200 in shipping just to view the stone.. Regular PSers will probably know which vendor this is. Thoughts and opinions much welcome!

Vendor photo


Stills from the video ..

 

[chrono]

Up to a certain point, you just have to bite the bullet and see the stone in person. I believe this to the case for this sapphire.

 

[T L]

Hi all, thank you so much for the input. I don't want to turn this into the PS version of the white/gold - blue/black dress, but when I look at the photos and videos, I still see a primarily pink stone with maybe purple but no orange. i'm still getting a handle on how to interpret gemstone colors in photos and videos, so let me know what you think.., whether it is worth approx $3k/ct for a AGL "pad" even though it is not the lighter tone salmon/sunset color? Vendor says it is 50%-50% pink-orange, and AGL brief says Orange-Pink and "pad" designation. I believe the vendor description, but I hesitate to pull the trigger based on the photo and video, esp since I would require at least a AGL prestige origin report and once you factor in I could be out up to $200 in shipping just to view the stone.. Regular PSers will probably know which vendor this is. Thoughts and opinions much welcome!

Vendor photo


Stills from the video ..

This is another padparadscha that looks like a dead ringer for a spinel. There are some padparadscha colors that spinels cannot attain, but this isn't one of them. Maybe you need to see it in person, but honestly, I don't think the color is exceptional for a padparadscha.

It is nicely cut though, but for that money/cut, I'd be looking at spinels.

 

[pregcurious]

I am not sure why he did not get an origin report, except to save money. In this case, it doesn't make sense when you are marketing a stone as a pad.

CS buying is expensive, but sometimes you just have to see a stone in person and return it if you don't like it. If you do this, please post pictures so we can learn how accurate this vendor's pictures are. If you get him to agree to a full refund and paying for the Origin Report if it is not from Sri Lanka, I would consider buying this.

I bought a Grade A jadeite from a vendor with the agreement that he would send it to GIA, and if it came back as untreated, I would buy it with the regular return policy. (If I returned it because I did not like the color, I would pay for the gem report and shipping.) If it did not come back as untreated, I would not pay anything. I put a down payment on the gemstone to show that I was a serious buyer before it was sent to GIA. I prefer to have the vendor send the stone before I buy it because there are no issues about the time for return, or if stone is damaged/lost somehow in the shipping process to a lab.

 

[T L]

What about this spinel on gemfix's website? It's far less expensive per carat and you don't have to worry about treatment as much.

I understand the pedigree of owning a padparadscha, but I just don't understand the prices paid for some colors when you can have the same exact look in a spinel.

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

Just to clarify my earlier comments in my reply to you . . .

Some dealers do not consider it a padparadscha if it's not from Sri Lanka, but AGL and others will not use origin as a basis for determining the padparadscha status. That being said, one will pay a premium if the stone IS from Sri Lanka, as African padparadschas (and from other locations) are less per carat, as you have noted yourself. If the stone is expensive, or sold as Sri Lankan, then I would most certainly want origin. It's kind of like Kashmir sapphire, you are paying for that origin, so you want to be sure.

So I've thought about whether I should respond and decided it would be a good idea to offer some further clarification. I agree that an origin stating Sri Lankan material would be beneficial. But we have had this same kind of discussion surrounding blue sapphires and I think all concurred that origin was no guarantee of quality, that all things being equal, the coveted origin will have greater value. I cringe when we start making blanket statements like "one from x origin will always command a higher price per carat than from y origin" because there are exceptions. Generally speaking, I agree, but if you have a very good quality stone from another location, it could be worth more per carat than a stone from the coveted origin, predicated on quality. (My disclaimer is that this is one race in which a horse of mine is running so I'm not totally free of bias! )

 

[T L]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

Just to clarify my earlier comments in my reply to you . . .

Some dealers do not consider it a padparadscha if it's not from Sri Lanka, but AGL and others will not use origin as a basis for determining the padparadscha status. That being said, one will pay a premium if the stone IS from Sri Lanka, as African padparadschas (and from other locations) are less per carat, as you have noted yourself. If the stone is expensive, or sold as Sri Lankan, then I would most certainly want origin. It's kind of like Kashmir sapphire, you are paying for that origin, so you want to be sure.

So I've thought about whether I should respond and decided it would be a good idea to offer some further clarification. I agree that an origin stating Sri Lankan material would be beneficial. But we have had this same kind of discussion surrounding blue sapphires and I think all concurred that origin was no guarantee of quality, that all things being equal, the coveted origin will have greater value. I cringe when we start making blanket statements like "one from x origin will always command a higher price per carat than from y origin" because there are exceptions. Generally speaking, I agree, but if you have a very good quality stone from another location, it could be worth more per carat than a stone from the coveted origin, predicated on quality. (My disclaimer is that this is one race in which a horse of mine is running so I'm not totally free of bias! )

What I should have further clarified is that if all else is equal, as you mentioned above, a stone from Sri Lanka will be worth more than one from elsewhere. However, I do feel in some instances, origin is blown out of proportion, and there are some ugly stones from prime locations. I've seen gorgeous blue sapphires from Tanzania, and ugly ones from Kashmir, but that Kashmir pedigree is used to command a higher price, as unfortunate as it is. Yes, there are beautiful padparadschas from Africa, and ugly ones from Sri Lanka, but if you're paying a high price, and the stone is being sold as Sri Lankan, then getting an origin report is important IMO.

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi all, quick question. I'm looking at a 2ct sapphire that has been certified as a pad on its AGL gem brief. The seller represents it as being of Sri Lankan origin. I'm considering getting the more comprehensive AGL origin or GIA origin report - is there any difference between the two? I know AGL is very well regarded but most CS over here tend to be GIA or GRS certed, not AGL.

Also, if the gem is from a reputable vendor and is heated, do you think it's worth to get the additional report or is the AGL gem brief sufficient (ie is origin really only that important for unheated pads?)

I've seen prices all over the place for heated vs unheated pads so it's a bit confusing..

Thanks in advance for any advice/input!!

Origin is extremely important when it comes to padparadschas, as many in the trade only consider a true padparadscha as coming from Sri Lanka. Many come from Africa and can be sold in Sri Lanka, so be careful. Origin has a premium associated with it in the case of this gem. Any vendor can be duped, even a reputable one, so I would go for the origin report, especially if it was an expensive purchase.

+1 It would not be considered a pad if it is not from Sri Lanka. I have a peach/pink from the Umba Valley, but I did not pay a pad price.

Just to clarify my earlier comments in my reply to you . . .

Some dealers do not consider it a padparadscha if it's not from Sri Lanka, but AGL and others will not use origin as a basis for determining the padparadscha status. That being said, one will pay a premium if the stone IS from Sri Lanka, as African padparadschas (and from other locations) are less per carat, as you have noted yourself. If the stone is expensive, or sold as Sri Lankan, then I would most certainly want origin. It's kind of like Kashmir sapphire, you are paying for that origin, so you want to be sure.

So I've thought about whether I should respond and decided it would be a good idea to offer some further clarification. I agree that an origin stating Sri Lankan material would be beneficial. But we have had this same kind of discussion surrounding blue sapphires and I think all concurred that origin was no guarantee of quality, that all things being equal, the coveted origin will have greater value. I cringe when we start making blanket statements like "one from x origin will always command a higher price per carat than from y origin" because there are exceptions. Generally speaking, I agree, but if you have a very good quality stone from another location, it could be worth more per carat than a stone from the coveted origin, predicated on quality. (My disclaimer is that this is one race in which a horse of mine is running so I'm not totally free of bias! )

What I should have further clarified is that if all else is equal, as you mentioned above, a stone from Sri Lanka will be worth more than one from elsewhere. However, I do feel in some instances, origin is blown out of proportion, and there are some ugly stones from prime locations. I've seen gorgeous blue sapphires from Tanzania, and ugly ones from Kashmir, but that Kashmir pedigree is used to command a higher price, as unfortunate as it is. Yes, there are beautiful padparadschas from Africa, and ugly ones from Sri Lanka, but if you're paying a high price, and the stone is being sold as Sri Lankan, then getting an origin report is important IMO.

Well said and I agree!

 

[mochiko42]

Thank you everybody for the advice. Based on the current price point (just over $3k/ ct) I need to mull over my options a little further. I received some further videos and photos which are swaying me slightly (I do see the orange now but not as much as I'd like, which may be a limitation of the photography/computer monitor, there's still something, je ne sais quoi dire, maybe the brightness/vibrancy isn't quite coming through, I would have to see it in person, it does look quite close to the popular color of pad in Japan which is a bit more reddish than the sunset/salmon color popular in the US), but I wonder now if I should exercise patience, since I will go to Japan in a few weeks (and have been already scoping out Japanese vendors..knowing Japanese is really coming in handy.) and also the June gem show in HK is not that far off. I guess I should look at more pads in person first, though many of the ones I saw at the Sept show last year in HK had quite a bit of brown.

My preference is to see this type of stone in person and with GIA origin report (not that I don't trust AGL, just the reality over here is that it is not as useful as GIA for my purpose), and preferably without having to tie up that much in cash just to view the stone. In this case, I think I will hold off until after I have gone to Japan and after the June show in HK. If it's still available after then, I will reassess (if I haven't made another purchase by then).

I thought buying OEC vs RB diamonds online was hard. This is so much more difficult. Decisions, decisions.. though I know it's such a first-world problem.
Thank you everyone!

edited to add: Just want to add that the vendor (since I'm temporarily not considering the stone, I will share the name, Jim McCormick, but I bet most of you already guessed it from the pics) has been incredibly helpful & informative as I considered this pad. He was also extremely gracious and understanding when, after all my questions, I told him that I decided to hold off for now. So I have no concerns about buying from this vendor per se.

 

[minousbijoux]

I think you are making a wise call. With those options soon to be upon you, it would be silly to jump at a stone unless you were absolutely smitten with it. Since you are not, as you say, it makes more sense to hold off and have the opportunity to see many when you are there.

Also, you have probably been in contact with her already, but there is a PSer who seems to live in Japan and has a jeweler that seems to have a wide variety of colored stones. It would be great if you could go to that jeweler as well. I think the user name of the PSer is GemandJewelryLover or something like that.