POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which setting

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I personally would not be happy flanking any stone (a transitional, in your case) with sidestones that are the same shape (round) but perform visibly differently - whether or not MRBs would perform "visibly differently" will depend on the faceting and proportions your particular specimen boasts. I think when sidestones are differently outlined (round center and pear sides, etc.) the eye just expects differences in performance, but when stones are the same shape we intuitively expect them to perform similarly. Do you have any close-up photos that show its patterning?

Creating a multi-stone with RBs and creating one with old cuts are two very different undertakings! I personally have an MRB multi-stone (fivestone) and an MRB eternity band, and never wear them together on the same finger. I do enjoy wearing them "together" with one on each hand How big are the stones in your eternity?

Pairing your heirloom transitional with a suite of old cut sidestones has two advantages:
1. They're cheaper than MRBs, all else equal, and
2. They're much more forgiving - antiques were all cut by hand, and so slight variations in performance and faceting are not only "perfectly acceptable", they're expected.

Using old cuts has two distinct disadvantages:
1. They're harder to find, especially suites, and
2. They might take longer to find, especially suites.

Depending on your stone's faceting, vendor availability, etc., if you do decide to go the antiques route, I'd recommend contacting Grace (http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/) and asking if she has any recommendations. Both a five-stone and a three-stone using your stone as the center definitely seem feasibly in-budget (including setting)... I'm wondering if a three-stone using your stone as a side, finding it a mate, and finding a larger centerstone might also be within budget? Grace's bench does wonderful work so you can have the setting made in-house as well.

If you go the MRB route I recommend the trellis over the Uprong, as it spaces the stones out more (increases horizontal finger coverage). PSer FancyDiamonds posted a fantastic thread comparing her trellis and Uprong settings: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-perfect-5-stone-trellis-design-from-whiteflash.154045/?hilit=mum']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-perfect-5-stone-trellis-design-from-whiteflash.154045/?hilit=mum[/URL]

I made my mum a graduated five-stone with OECs (0.39, 0.45, 0.53, 0.47, 0.42, size 6.5). I sourced the OECs myself, and WF made the setting. The graduation is very slight, which I also prefer for stones in these sizes
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wf-made-my-mum-a-pressie-a-2-25ct-oec-five-stone.173503/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wf-made-my-mum-a-pressie-a-2-25ct-oec-five-stone.173503/[/URL]

ETA: Forgot to add - I agree, BGD's website is far better than WF's! It's easier to navigate and seems to have been more carefully thought out. I do, however, know from personal experience that the skills of their respective web designers do not in any way represent the skills/knowledge of their jewellery sales personnel, jewellery designers, CAD artists, and benches

 

[Niel]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I personally would not be happy flanking any stone (a transitional, in your case) with sidestones that are the same shape (round) but perform visibly differently - whether or not MRBs would perform "visibly differently" will depend on the faceting and proportions your particular specimen boasts. I think when sidestones are differently outlined (round center and pear sides, etc.) the eye just expects differences in performance, but when stones are the same shape we intuitively expect them to perform similarly. Do you have any close-up photos that show its patterning?

Creating a multi-stone with RBs and creating one with old cuts are two very different undertakings! I personally have an MRB multi-stone (fivestone) and an MRB eternity band, and never wear them together on the same finger. I do enjoy wearing them "together" with one on each hand How big are the stones in your eternity?

Pairing your heirloom transitional with a suite of old cut sidestones has two advantages:
1. They're cheaper than MRBs, all else equal, and
2. They're much more forgiving - antiques were all cut by hand, and so slight variations in performance and faceting are not only "perfectly acceptable", they're expected.

Using old cuts has two distinct disadvantages:
1. They're harder to find, especially suites, and
2. They might take longer to find, especially suites.

Depending on your stone's faceting, vendor availability, etc., if you do decide to go the antiques route, I'd recommend contacting Grace (http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/) and asking if she has any recommendations. Both a five-stone and a three-stone using your stone as the center definitely seem feasibly in-budget (including setting)... I'm wondering if a three-stone using your stone as a side, finding it a mate, and finding a larger centerstone might also be within budget? Grace's bench does wonderful work so you can have the setting made in-house as well.

If you go the MRB route I recommend the trellis over the Uprong, as it spaces the stones out more (increases horizontal finger coverage). PSer FancyDiamonds posted a fantastic thread comparing her trellis and Uprong settings: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-perfect-5-stone-trellis-design-from-whiteflash.154045/?hilit=mum']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-perfect-5-stone-trellis-design-from-whiteflash.154045/?hilit=mum[/URL]

I made my mum a graduated five-stone with OECs (0.39, 0.45, 0.53, 0.47, 0.42, size 6.5). I sourced the OECs myself, and WF made the setting. The graduation is very slight, which I also prefer for stones in these sizes
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wf-made-my-mum-a-pressie-a-2-25ct-oec-five-stone.173503/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wf-made-my-mum-a-pressie-a-2-25ct-oec-five-stone.173503/[/URL]

ETA: Forgot to add - I agree, BGD's website is far better than WF's! It's easier to navigate and seems to have been more carefully thought out. I do, however, know from personal experience that the skills of their respective web designers do not in any way represent the skills/knowledge of their jewellery sales personnel, jewellery designers, CAD artists, and benches

I didn't realize it was a transitional cut. I agree. I would not mix them.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

This is super helpful, thank you. I completely agree that pairing three of the same shape stones together naturally requires that all three stones are the same or at least similar. I absolutely don't want to pair my stone with any other shape (pears, etc) because I fear I would get tired of that look. I also agree that wearing my eternity band with this ring is not something I will do but I would like the option to wear them on separate hands at the same time. I believe my eternity band is comprised of 3 pointers.

I think the approach of contacting JBEG to see if she can source old cut stones for me is a great option. Ideally I'd like to source a new, slightly larger center stone with a matching side stone for a three stone ring. I was roughly thinking a center stone that's .75 with roughly .48 sides. I figure I could always add to it in the future if I wanted to. This might be harder to do and could take time but I'm it I any rush so that's fine.

As for the setting would you recommend also working with JBEG or could I still work with someone like BG or WF for the actual setting? I really love the crossed trellis setting but I'm not sure how the old cut diamonds and that setting would work together and wonder if I'd be better off finding a more vintage style setting that I loved. Ideally though I really want something like the trellis setting.

Here's a bad iPhone pic of my grandmas ring.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I love your moms ring, really beautiful. Did you design/customize the setting with WF? Basically you feel like a U prong setting works better with old cut diamonds while the trellis setting works better with MRB, correct.

Do you think a three stone with a larger center or something like your moms with minimal graduation between stones would give better finger coverage? If the three stone, what type of setting so you think would work best?

I think your rings are absolutely beautiful and the more I learn the more I want do make sure I get this right. I really appreciate all the help and guidance.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

Sorry one more question, can you mix a transitional cut and an OEC or does it depend on the stone?

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I have to laugh: one suggestion I decided against throwing out was to ask the antiques vendors if they had any old cut pears. I had a pair of old cut pears for a short time - very sweet little things, unique and charming, but ultimately not what I was looking for for that project. You seem to know what you want - and that is a Very Good Thing! - so no pears

A band with three pointers and a graduated fivestone starring 0.3ct+ might well not compete if worn on the same finger; my eternity has larger stones that overwhelm adjacent rings. You could certainly wear them on different hands without it looking 'too similar' or anything like that.

JbEG actually no longer exists - Grace and Erica have both started their own companies.
Erica: http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/
Grace: http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/
I have worked with Grace and she is a wonderful vendor and a lovely person, and her bench is doing some delicious work. I haven't worked with Erica but have had the pleasure of meeting her, and I am sure she is also fantastic to work with, so you really can't go wrong

I believe both WF and BGD have policies against working with outside stones without reports. If you've worked with either previously it might be worth calling to inquire about the details of those policies, though... if you are truly wedded to getting a setting from WF/BGD and they won't work with your stones you could have a setting made and have another vendor set the stones, but I strongly recommend against this - antiques can have wonky outlines, and you're taking a risk having a vendor cast a snug-fitting setting without having the stones in-hand to verify measurements for, and you've just introduced a third party to the liability list should something go wrong in the setting process.

There are definite advantages to working with a vendor who specialises in antiques, if you're dealing with antique stones. Antiques can have wonky shapes, uneven, flea-bitten, razor-thin girdles, structural issues... vendors who specialise in antiques use benches that are accustomed to working around these quirks.

I can't see the faceting in those photos, so I couldn't say whether MRBs might be good fits re. type of performance. You mentioned having an appraisal done soon? Your appraiser should have some master RBs on-hand that you might be able to look at, to get a better idea of which way you want to go.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I connected grace already so I will see what she says. I mentioned there are two options I'm considering (three-stone with larger center) or graduated five stone using my stone as the center and having little graduation between stones. I'm pretty confident that I would be extremely happy with either of these options.

If I do the five stone ring a u prong setting like your moms would be lovely. Did WF agree to set your moms bc you worked with them in the past? I've worked with ERD on my ering but I'm not sure I want to work with them again nor so I know if they're really the right vendor for the project.

What about the three stone trellis from SK? It might be totally out of my budget but I could see that working well with the old cut stones. Do you know of any other vendors that will work with stones without reports? Is it possible to get a lab report on my stone?

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

Edit - just saw your response, replying late:

Thank you!! Niel's ring is one of my favourites, as well - the graduation is just perfect to my eyes!

I wouldn't say that Uprongs work better with old cuts and trellises with MRBs... I'd say that trellises space the stones out more, whatever type they are (old cuts or MRBs), and so provide more finger coverage than shared-prong Uprongs. You mentioned that you wanted the stones to wrap around the top of your finger and I took that to mean that you'd prefer more finger coverage, but I definitely think either setting style could look beautiful with either type of stone!

I think a five-stone would give more finger coverage for the dollar than a three-stone with a larger center, but a three-stone with a larger center has the "centerstone with sides" aesthetic that you lose with more stones and less graduation. It really just depends on what you prefer (very helpful, I know)! For a three-stone I personally love the look of a trellis with the sides "tucked under" the center a bit. I'm very biased, though, as my original e-ring was a three-stone with the sides "tucked under" - others prefer all stones align at the girdle plane... For a five-stone with stones of similar size (small graduation) I prefer all stones align at the girdle plane, which I think is the norm with both these types of settings.

Re. mixing transitionals and other types of old cuts ("old european" cuts, "european" cuts, etc.)... again, I think this depends on your specific stone and what you're looking for. I happily mixed "transitionals" and "old european cuts" in my mum's ring, because the stones are small enough that the faceting differences don't stand out. The center is a textbook OEC, the first pair of sides are textbook transitionals, and the endstones are more OECs... In-person all you see is "line of sparkle", and the faceting distinctions aren't noticeable - but all the stones have the same "quality" of light return. I'm defining "quality" here to mean "when you line them up, do any stones stand out for some reason?" - I wouldn't have added MRBs to my suite of stones because in comparison MRBs are noticeably sharper and flashier, and MRB sparkle would have drowned my particular old cuts out. I do think matching faceting personality would be much more important w/ a three-stone w/ a larger center because now you're getting into sizes wherein facet pattern is noticeable at a glance - with smaller stones it's all just twinkle here, twinkle there

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

Sounds like a five stone might be easier to make because the stones are smaller so matching them might not be as tough and budget wise give me more finger coverage. I love the idea of a three stone ring but I might end up spending more and it might be harder to find a center stone that matches well. I'm slowly learning! For a five stone do you like trellis setting or so there another setting you think works better? I absolutely agree that Niels ring is beautiful and the both of you have been a gigantic help.

My next step is go back to the appraiser and have him look at it again and maybe he can make a few suggestions on the type of stones I should be looking for.

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I've worked with WF many times - but to be honest I'm not actually sure if they even had this policy at the time! I do think it's worth calling in to ask, though, that's definitely the best way to get reliable info on policy details. I've admired SB's OEC SK in-person and it's gorgeous, but having had wire-form settings both cast (by WF) and handforged (by DBL and VCanera) I don't think there's any real advantage to going handforged with this sort of all-metal setting, and I don't recommend paying extra for it.

It is certainly possible to get a lab report on your stone! Reputable labs in the US are GIA and AGSL - the stone will need to be sent loose, and it might take a few weeks. GIA is paintfully slow but you can drop the stone off yourself if you like; AGSL is much faster but you'll need a vendor to send it in for you. That said, what would your goal be? GIA is notorious for labelling old cut rounds "MRBs" with poor cut, but you get the universally respected colour and clarity statement. AGSL has a veritable alphabet soup of reports you can choose from; no doubt they have one that would suit the "want colour and clarity but not cut grade" purpose. An independent appraiser could give you the same, much faster, and (probably) for less money, depending on where you'd be shipping from, but an appraiser's opinion doesn't hold the weight of a GIA or AGSL report - especially if you're looking to sell one day.

- If you're comfortable letting your vendor find those matching stones the main purpose the appraisal serves is to establish what condition your stone is in. Some vendors may require this appraisal and/or proof of insurance before working with your stone.

- If you want to be able to match stones yourself then your appraiser's expert opinion on what colour, clarity, proportions, and faceting to target becomes much more valuable. Matching stones yourself is a time-consuming, headache-inducing process that can be very rewarding - after it's successfully finished! If you're looking to do this project in any sort of timely fashion... I don't recommend it.

Please let us know what Grace responds with!

ETA: I love the idea of a trellis, or a Uprong, for a graduated five stone But I would request your vendor's opinion once you've got all the stones together

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I've reached out to BG and WF requiring their policy and if I need a lab report for loose stones. I remember when I worked with ERD that they wanted to see my report but I never actually got around to sending it and they didn't ask again. I guess I will see what WF and BG have to say because that will definitely impact things. I'm assuming WF and BG don't source old cut diamonds, correct?

I agree hand forged is not worth the extra money so I will stick with a cast ring so I can stay within my budget. In terms of reporting I guess GIA would be the best even though it takes a long time. If I had an independent appraiser do it I wonder if that would be enough for WF or BG. I don't intend on selling it anytime soon so an independent appraiser would probably be the easiest assuming that's enough documentation. If the time comes that I want to sell it I could always get a GIA or AGSL appraisal.

I'm comfortable having a vendor source the stones for me. While I would love to do it myself I don't have the time or expertise. I barely have the time to look with a 16 month baby boy running around around (keeps me on my toes).

I will absolutely let you know what Grace has to say. I'm assuming if she could source the stones and I has my stone appraised I could have everything sent to the vendor of my choice for placement in the setting.

Are their any other vendors besides grace that specialize in older cuts that I should reach out to?

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

A little update:

1.) I'm becoming slightly obessed with making this ring and learning everything I can about diamonds!!! Not sure this is a good thing.
2.) my budget is now $5k....more $$ is always a good thing
3.) Based on what I read on the WF site they will not accept outside diamonds that aren't lab certified. Still waiting for BG to get back to me but I'm sure they have the same policy

With that being the case I feel like I have a few options:
1.) send my stone in for a lab report
2.) have it appraised locally and work with appraiser to source stones from someone like Grace or OWC or Good Old Gold and then have a local jewelry store in Dallas set it for me

I'm still town been the graduated fove stone and a three stone but I'm confident I love the trellis setting. If I'm going to work locally I don't want of over complicate the setting.

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I've reached out to BG and WF requiring their policy and if I need a lab report for loose stones. I remember when I worked with ERD that they wanted to see my report but I never actually got around to sending it and they didn't ask again. I guess I will see what WF and BG have to say because that will definitely impact things.
I'm assuming WF and BG don't source old cut diamonds, correct?
Correct.

I agree hand forged is not worth the extra money so I will stick with a cast ring so I can stay within my budget.
Good call, IMO
In terms of reporting I guess GIA would be the best even though it takes a long time.
Either GIA or AGSL to buy or sell in the US. EGL is accepted for old cuts, largely because of GIA nomenclature ("old european cut", "circular brilliant", "round brilliant", etc.) and possible assignment of misleading cut grade, but EGL (EGL USA) doesn't have nearly the same prestige
If I had an independent appraiser do it I wonder if that would be enough for WF or BG. I don't intend on selling it anytime soon so an independent appraiser would probably be the easiest assuming that's enough documentation. If the time comes that I want to sell it I could always get a GIA or AGSL appraisal.
Neither GIA nor AGSL will issue reports for stones that aren't loose, so sending it in at a later time would mean unsetting and re-setting it. EGL will grade set stones.

To be honest... I don't see much value in getting a GIA report unless you feel strongly about it. Your stone is a half carat, it's not precision-cut, it's not a unique cut, it hasn't been freshly refurbished/polished, and it's not a D IF - it's just not going to command the "big bucks" on the secondary market, report or no report. Having the GIA's statement of colour and clarity is valuable, especially if it's important to you, but you'll have to weigh that against sending the stone off for several weeks. Likely the remainder of the report is at best unhelpful, and at worst detrimental to selling to a non-educated audience (a beautiful, weathered old cut is probably going to fare better sold as a beautiful, weathered old cut than a "fair cut" RB with "poor" symmetry/polish)... of course, if you do sell, you can always just sell without the report


I'm comfortable having a vendor source the stones for me. While I would love to do it myself I don't have the time or expertise. I barely have the time to look with a 16 month baby boy running around around (keeps me on my toes).

I will absolutely let you know what Grace has to say. I'm assuming if she could source the stones and I has my stone appraised I could have everything sent to the vendor of my choice for placement in the setting.

Are their any other vendors besides grace that specialize in older cuts that I should reach out to?
LAD, OWD, DBL, and GOG are also possibilities

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

A little update:

1.) I'm becoming slightly obessed with making this ring and learning everything I can about diamonds!!! Not sure this is a good thing.
2.) my budget is now $5k....more $$ is always a good thing
3.) Based on what I read on the WF site they will not accept outside diamonds that aren't lab certified. Still waiting for BG to get back to me but I'm sure they have the same policy

With that being the case I feel like I have a few options:
1.) send my stone in for a lab report
To work with any vendor who requires all outside stones have lab reports - this is not just true for your one stone, but the other two or four stones you acquire as well!
2.) have it appraised locally and work with appraiser to source stones from someone like Grace or OWC or Good Old Gold and then have a local jewelry store in Dallas set it for me
Is there a particular reason not to simply have the vendor who sources the side-stones also create the setting and set the stones?
A) You lose nothing on design and workmanship (all the vendors being discussed here - WF, BGD, JBG, DBL, LAD, OWD, GOG, etc. are more than capable of executing a trellis design beautifully)
B) You gain in a couple of ways - first, one vendor is responsible for sourcing the stones, casting the setting, and setting the stones, meaning that one vendor is liable for the entire process should something go wrong - as a consumer minimising the potential for finger-pointing in this scenario is a big bonus, and second, it's likely to be more cost-effective to keep it all under one roof. Some vendors charge "outside stone setting fees" to set stones they didn't source - another thing to ask about.

I'm still town been the graduated fove stone and a three stone but I'm confident I love the trellis setting. If I'm going to work locally I don't want of over complicate the setting.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I'm going to second the suggestion of seeing if one of the old cut vendors can source you stones. I sent pictures of my center OEC to Grace and she found 4 matching stones (2 pairs ) to complete my 5 stone. It was ridiculously easy on my end!

 

[Niel]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

Love affair diamonds sounds like she had a lot of smaller diamonds not on her website. I'd email her.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I agree that a lab report isn't worth it considering the size of my diamond and my best bet is to work with someone like Grace to source additional stones. Grace already responded saying she has many available stones. She also mentioned that a three or five stone ring could work and it's really a matter of preference. She said if I plan on stacking then a five stone might be better while a three stone is better on its own as a RHR. I'm leaning towards the five stone right because I think it will be easier to source the diamonds and I think it will give me more finger coverage and versatility.

Once I have the stones I'm a little confused who would set them since all of the vendors I've looked into require a lab report. I know a few local stores would set them but I'm not sure how great their work is. Plus, all of them have shown me stock rings from a catalog that required specific size diamonds that didn't excite me.

Would Grace or someone like a David Klass be an option?

 

[yssie]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I agree that a lab report isn't worth it considering the size of my diamond and my best bet is to work with someone like Grace to source additional stones. Grace already responded saying she has many available stones. She also mentioned that a three or five stone ring could work and it's really a matter of preference. She said if I plan on stacking then a five stone might be better while a three stone is better on its own as a RHR. I'm leaning towards the five stone right because I think it will be easier to source the diamonds and I think it will give me more finger coverage and versatility.

Once I have the stones I'm a little confused who would set them since all of the vendors I've looked into require a lab report. I know a few local stores would set them but I'm not sure how great their work is. Plus, all of them have shown me stock rings from a catalog that required specific size diamonds that didn't excite me.

Would Grace or someone like a David Klass be an option?

Definitely ask Grace. Her bench has done wonderful work the past several months, and her prices are very reasonable - and it really is so much easier to keep it all under one roof if at all possible.

I haven't worked with David Klass and I can't speak to his policies, but he seems to have a very satisfied client base and his custom designs look very nicely executed.

 

[livewithease]

Re: POLL: three stone OR graduated five stone and which sett

I love this five stone trellis ring.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/5-stone-graduated-trellis-from-bgd.170896/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/5-stone-graduated-trellis-from-bgd.170896/[/URL]

Clearly the stones are bigger but this is what I would love to make. Do you think if I sourced the stones from Grace and purchased the setting from BG and had someone locally set it I would run into trouble?

I'm also wondering how much I'm going to really save by using my grandmothers stone and if I'm better off just purchasing the setting and new stones from BG or WF in something like 0.15, 0.30, 0.60 or 0.20, 0.40, 0.60.