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Buying based on diamond specs (4Cs, HCA) alone Bad idea?

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ghostm42

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I'm new to this forum, but I've been browsing for the last few months. I'm looking to get a diamond for an engagement ring and this is the first time I've ever bought a diamond, much less one of this expense and magnitude.

My question is, are there qualities to a diamond that is not captured by the specifications? If so, how can two identically spec'd diamonds differ?

For example, if I use the diamond search on this website and specify relatively narrow preferences (ie. 1.5ct, color G, VVS2, HCA excellent, GIA certified), then purchase the cheapest diamond that comes up that meets that criteria, is there a difference between this diamond and one that has identical specifications for $3000 more?

I ask this because I have no experience. If I buy one online, it'll arrive by mail and I'm sure it'll look great to my novice eyes. My sister has a ring with a 1.5ct, color I, non-GIA certification that I can compare it to, but I honestly doubt I can spot the difference; I couldn't even see the blemishes in her diamond with a magnifying glass and the certificate next to me. I can get it appraised, but I'm not sure what that really tells me (don't they all come back appraised for more?). Is there value in buying in-store where I can compare diamonds (I live in NYC) if I know the specs I want? No stores have an HCA rank and few have the GIA cert right next to the diamond, so I actually have less information when buying from a store.

Thanks. Any help is appreciated.
 

pfunk

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ghostm42|1427562268|3853769 said:
I'm new to this forum, but I've been browsing for the last few months. I'm looking to get a diamond for an engagement ring and this is the first time I've ever bought a diamond, much less one of this expense and magnitude.

My question is, are there qualities to a diamond that is not captured by the specifications? If so, how can two identically spec'd diamonds differ?

For example, if I use the diamond search on this website and specify relatively narrow preferences (ie. 1.5ct, color G, VVS2, HCA excellent, GIA certified), then purchase the cheapest diamond that comes up that meets that criteria, is there a difference between this diamond and one that has identical specifications for $3000 more?

I ask this because I have no experience. If I buy one online, it'll arrive by mail and I'm sure it'll look great to my novice eyes. My sister has a ring with a 1.5ct, color I, non-GIA certification that I can compare it to, but I honestly doubt I can spot the difference; I couldn't even see the blemishes in her diamond with a magnifying glass and the certificate next to me. I can get it appraised, but I'm not sure what that really tells me (don't they all come back appraised for more?). Is there value in buying in-store where I can compare diamonds (I live in NYC) if I know the specs I want? No stores have an HCA rank and few have the GIA cert right next to the diamond, so I actually have less information when buying from a store.

Thanks. Any help is appreciated.

Welcome Ghost. Glad you stumbled across the website, as you will quickly become much more informed than you were previously. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks around here eager to see you get the most bang for your buck.

There are certain qualities that may not be captured on a diamond grading report. An easy example to illustrate is milkiness caused by very stong fluorescence. Most of the time, fluorescence does not have a negative impact, but sometimes it can give the diamond an oily or milky look which will not be indicated on the report. Because of things like these, if there is a diamond that seems unreasonably low when compared to other similar diamonds there is usually a reason why. Because of this, if shopping online you need to pick a vendor you can trust and a vendor that inspects diamonds prior to sending them to you. It is also wise to only buy from vendors who have an unconditional, no questions asked return policy.

When it comes to cut, many here will tell you that GIA excellent grade is not good enough. There are certain GIA excellent stones that are cut to the center of ideal proportions that are going to outperform one cut to the edge of GIA excellent. This is where the HCA tool comes into play. By rejecting any stones that score over 2, you dramatically increase your chances of ending up with a wonderfully performing diamond.

With clarity, as you begin to get into the more included stones (Si1 and below) there can be differences that cause differences in price. Depending on what size of stone you are interested in, an SI1 stone and even more likely an SI2 stone may have inclusions that are visible to the naked eye at normal viewing distances or slightly closer than normal viewing distance. If these visible inclusions are present, the value of that stone will be lower than one that has the same clarity grade but does not have visible inclusions.

There is definitely value for being able to see the stones in person prior to purchasing. How much value you put into that is up to you. Many people will use jewelery stores to help figure out what they are looking for in a diamond as far as cut, color, and clarity go and they will then seek out a stone online where the prices are typically lower. If buying from a store, you can always ask to only see GIA or AGS graded diamonds, in which case they may have the reports on hand or you can record the report numbers and look them up online yourself. Neither is the right or wrong way to purchase diamonds, you just need to decide what your preference is.

Being that you are in New York, I would think there would be pretty competitive pricing as they have large diamond district. There are a few vendors from PS that I believe have storefronts in NYC. Enchanted diamonds and ID jeweley are two that come to mind. Good old Gold is also on Long Island I believe. A lot of the advantage to buying online is that you don't pay sales tax, but if you are from New York you won't get that added benefit, so buying in person may be even more appealing to you.

There is more value to an appraisal than just telling you what it is worth. They can further educate you on the quality of the stone that you have and also confirm, if buying online, that you have the actual stone in hand that you purchased online.

If you choose to buy online, stick around here and seek advice before making your purchase. We will make sure you get good bang for your buck and that you are buying from a vendor that is reputable.
 

ghostm42

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Thanks for the detailed reply, pfunk.

A few things based on what you mentioned...

Regarding the milkiness, can this be avoided by buying a diamond with faint fluorescence or less?

Regarding the cut, am I correct that there is no "Ideal" cut? I've been searching with HCA=excellent anyway. All the results are HCA < 2 and the results have GIA cut grade of excellent. Is there a good way to determine that the diamond I receive in the mail performs well? How do I know if it's a bad performer? The only diamond I can compare it to is my sister's engagement ring.

As for clarity, I'm probably going to stick to VVS1 or VVS2. This actually seems like it may be overkill, because I couldn't spot any blemishes with a magnifying glass on my sister's "I" diamond.

The taxes in NYC does make things quite a bit more expensive. I know you're supposed to report it on your taxes if you're out of state, but there's still quite a bit of value in deferring the upfront tax. Especially on a >$10K purchase. This may be ironic, but are there good non-NY stores for NYers to buy from?

As an example, I found this diamond through the search:
http://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/Results/D22473707
$13.6K, 1.58ct, GIA3x, HCA 1.8, color H, IF clarity, faint fluor, 30-day guarantee, non-NY seller (I think)
Pricewise, this costs the same as a $12.5K diamond from NY with tax.
Are there any red flags? Because I see $17K diamonds that are smaller and with worse clarity with 1.7HCA.

I have a year to buy a diamond, so I'm in no hurry. This is just one of the cheapest diamonds given the specs I plugged in. Because of it's low price, I can't tell if it's a good deal or if it has hidden faults.
 

WinkHPD

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ghostm42|1427567167|3853789 said:
Thanks for the detailed reply, pfunk.

A few things based on what you mentioned...

Regarding the milkiness, can this be avoided by buying a diamond with faint fluorescence or less?

Regarding the cut, am I correct that there is no "Ideal" cut? I've been searching with HCA=excellent anyway. All the results are HCA < 2 and the results have GIA cut grade of excellent. Is there a good way to determine that the diamond I receive in the mail performs well? How do I know if it's a bad performer? The only diamond I can compare it to is my sister's engagement ring.

As for clarity, I'm probably going to stick to VVS1 or VVS2. This actually seems like it may be overkill, because I couldn't spot any blemishes with a magnifying glass on my sister's "I" diamond.

The taxes in NYC does make things quite a bit more expensive. I know you're supposed to report it on your taxes if you're out of state, but there's still quite a bit of value in deferring the upfront tax. Especially on a >$10K purchase. This may be ironic, but are there good non-NY stores for NYers to buy from?

As an example, I found this diamond through the search:
http://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/Results/D22473707
$13.6K, 1.58ct, GIA3x, HCA 1.8, color H, IF clarity, faint fluor, 30-day guarantee, non-NY seller (I think)
Pricewise, this costs the same as a $12.5K diamond from NY with tax.
Are there any red flags? Because I see $17K diamonds that are smaller and with worse clarity with 1.7HCA.

I have a year to buy a diamond, so I'm in no hurry. This is just one of the cheapest diamonds given the specs I plugged in. Because of it's low price, I can't tell if it's a good deal or if it has hidden faults.

As a vendor I may not comment on the diamond that you are looking at by forum rules. (Which I agree with and support!)

I can tell you that yes, there are visible differences between one GIA XXX and another, often dramatic. A Chevy and a Maserati will both get you where you are going. One will be more exciting AND more expensive. That is also a quick and easy comparison. Diamonds tend to be more subtle in their differences, but over time, having that crisper and larger flash of sparkle and more visible fire seems to be what many are preferring.

These are choices that you need to make over the year that you are looking and actually taking some of that time to see, with YOUR eyes, different diamonds, and if possible to compare them beside each other at the same time. (Preferably not knowing which is which until YOUR eyes have told you which one YOU like.)

Since you are in New York, I think that you are perhaps not too far from several of the Pricescope vendors who post here. I think Jonathon at Good Old Gold is in your neighborhood or at least within a reasonable train ride. I know that he has "toys" galore to assist you in looking at the light performance of diamonds. I believe the people that Pfunk likes, Enchanted Diamond is in the New York area as well. (I live in Idaho and know next to nothing of the landscape in NY.)

I am sure that since you are not in a hurry, the good folks here will give you lots of names that you can talk to and visit. Then you can truly let your eyes do the walking and buy the diamond that fits your needs, and budget best.

Wink
 

pfunk

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Just so you have it, here is an actual photo of the diamond you are talking about. I plugged the GIA number into enchanted's cut score calculator and the diamond comes up as for sale. So this is the image of the exact diamond you are talking about.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R158-F7EDE7

It isn't a poor cut but it isn't great either, and it is certainly overkill for clarity. I think a lot of people do random searches of a wide range of diamonds and try to pick out the ones that seem unusually low price which seem to be a great value. That's not how I would go about it, and I wouldn't recommend you do it that way either. Rather I think it is better to figure out more specifically what it is you want and search with those narrow parameters for the best stone for you. I also don't like to use the pricescope search and limit it to only excellent for the HCA score. It is a quick way to search for promising stones, but a lot of stones don't have the information listed for the PS search to be able to calculate the HCA score. These stones will show n/a for HCA score, and a lot of them are going to be under 2 so you miss a large portion of possible stones.

Just a quick search with your budget and color requirements yields this stone on enchanted which I would prefer over the one you have listed. It is lower in clarity at VS2 which is going to have inclusions that you can not see without a loupe or microscope. To the naked eye, it will look the same as a vvs1 or vvs2. If you feel you want to stay that high in clarity, that is completely fine and is your choice, but you will be paying for something you can't see. Just want you to know that. The diamond is slightly larger and is cut to proportions that are safer than the stone you posted, which has a taller crown. This is just one stone that I found very quickly, and if you take plenty of time to watch the market and search, you can and will find better stones for you.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R160-23VY22

If you find a diamond you like, you can always check with a vendor from out of New York and see if you can purchase it through them. A lot of the diamonds you find when searching online will be available to many different vendors.
 

ghostm42

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Wow. Very useful info.

Does that mean that I should aim for an even lower HCA value than 1.8 (which is the sample diamond I posted and Enchanted gave a cut score of 94.4)? I plugged of few of the 100 cut scores from Enchanted into the HCA calculator and get values of 1.1 to 1.6 so far. Are these the ones that you'd consider great cuts?

The price differences still confuse me though. For example:
Here are two diamonds, both 1.5ct, color H, GIA certified, excellent polish/symmetry. Yet the cheaper one has a better cut score and clarity. I can't tell how the more expensive one is in any way better.
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R150-2J4527
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R150-CU9ZK1

It occurred to me that different vendors have access to the same diamonds, but I guess I never thought that through. Does that mean that I can buy a the same diamond I see in X store in NY by buying it through Y store in California and defer the tax payment until tax time? For example, the diamond I posted is available in both Adiamor and Enchanted, but I'd have to pay taxes upfront in Enchanted.
 

WinkHPD

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ghostm42|1427580737|3853851 said:
Wow. Very useful info.

Does that mean that I should aim for an even lower HCA value than 1.8 (which is the sample diamond I posted and Enchanted gave a cut score of 94.4)? I plugged of few of the 100 cut scores from Enchanted into the HCA calculator and get values of 1.1 to 1.6 so far. Are these the ones that you'd consider great cuts?

The price differences still confuse me though. For example:
Here are two diamonds, both 1.5ct, color H, GIA certified, excellent polish/symmetry. Yet the cheaper one has a better cut score and clarity. I can't tell how the more expensive one is in any way better.
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R150-2J4527
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R150-CU9ZK1

It occurred to me that different vendors have access to the same diamonds, but I guess I never thought that through. Does that mean that I can buy a the same diamond I see in X store in NY by buying it through Y store in California and defer the tax payment until tax time? For example, the diamond I posted is available in both Adiamor and Enchanted, but I'd have to pay taxes upfront in Enchanted.

Below a 2 is as far as you can go with the HCA. It is a rejection tool, not a selection tool. Below a 2 is worth looking further. You looked further, did not get what you wanted and moved on. Next.

Wink
 

pfunk

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Anything scoring under 2 on the HCA should be treated the same. A diamond scoring 0.8 should not be considered any better than one scoring 1.8 without getting more information such as an idealscope image. I treat the enchanted cut score much the same. I more or less use it to sort the diamonds so I can quickly pick out stones that are likely to perform well. I don't always think a stone scoring 100 is better than one scoring 97 for example. Ideally you make those differentiations using reflector images from tools like the idealscope or aset scope. You may find a stone that scores 95 but still has a very good looking idealscope. The reason for this is because the cut score goes off of numbers on the GIA report which are averaged and then rounded, so they don't always give the full perspective. They are making a best guess and it gives a better score to stones cut with "safer numbers". Does that make sense?

As far as the pricing goes, I really am not sure. I don't have a firm grasp on how all of that works and it would be a better question for the vendors. There may be something going on with the stone that the report doesn't show. The report is older, so maybe they are really trying to get that stone moved out of their inventory. It could just be a reflection of the price that the wholesaler is charging the vendor for the stone. One wholesaler has higher prices?

Regarding the last part on taxes and where you purchase the stone, it sounds like you have that correct. And you are always able to ask other vendors for price matches, as many of them offer that option.
 

RockyRacoon

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ghostm42|1427580737|3853851 said:
Wow. Very useful info.

Does that mean that I should aim for an even lower HCA value than 1.8 (which is the sample diamond I posted and Enchanted gave a cut score of 94.4)? I plugged of few of the 100 cut scores from Enchanted into the HCA calculator and get values of 1.1 to 1.6 so far. Are these the ones that you'd consider great cuts?

You can ignore their 'cut score' altogether. It is opaque and has a lot of other issues that render it minimally useful.

Read some reviews about recent experiences with Enchanted Diamonds here, prior to making any purchase.
 

pfunk

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RockyRacoon|1427594157|3853931 said:
ghostm42|1427580737|3853851 said:
Wow. Very useful info.

Does that mean that I should aim for an even lower HCA value than 1.8 (which is the sample diamond I posted and Enchanted gave a cut score of 94.4)? I plugged of few of the 100 cut scores from Enchanted into the HCA calculator and get values of 1.1 to 1.6 so far. Are these the ones that you'd consider great cuts?

You can ignore their 'cut score' altogether. It is opaque and has a lot of other issues that render it minimally useful.

Read some reviews about recent experiences with Enchanted Diamonds here, prior to making any purchase.

And you can ignore opinions like this. He doesn't find usefulness in it for him and refuses to see how it is useful to others. Doesn't mean you can't determine for yourself if you find it useful. If you're looking at round diamonds, as you can see, by looking at those diamonds scoring 100, you are looking at stones scoring under 2 on the HCA. This is confirmation, just like the HCA tool, that the proprtions are likely to lead to strong performance. I'd stick to scores of 97 or better and try to find stones that have ASET or idealscope images to confirm performance. The cut score serves as a very nice way to quickly weed out known poor performers.

I too would urge you to read reviews on any vendor you purchase from. I recently purchased through Enchanted and was perfectly happy with my exchanges. I ended up with a stone that my pricescope recommended independent appraiser confirmed as a really great buy. I checked out their ivouch reviews prior to purchasing and eveything looked good. I will say I think they need to work on their responsiveness to customer emails and inquiries. I had the best luck with the live chat on their web page.

Like I said before, if you see something you like, run it by the community here to see what everyone thinks. If you are ready to buy, make sure to try to keep the stones identity anonymous or have it on hold with the vendor so that lurkers don't snag it. If you aren't looking to purchase, but rather to learn, feel free to post links with your questions and folks here will help you along.
 

RockyRacoon

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pfunk|1427597549|3853947 said:
RockyRacoon|1427594157|3853931 said:
ghostm42|1427580737|3853851 said:
Wow. Very useful info.

Does that mean that I should aim for an even lower HCA value than 1.8 (which is the sample diamond I posted and Enchanted gave a cut score of 94.4)? I plugged of few of the 100 cut scores from Enchanted into the HCA calculator and get values of 1.1 to 1.6 so far. Are these the ones that you'd consider great cuts?

You can ignore their 'cut score' altogether. It is opaque and has a lot of other issues that render it minimally useful.

Read some reviews about recent experiences with Enchanted Diamonds here, prior to making any purchase.

And you can ignore opinions like this. He doesn't find usefulness in it for him and refuses to see how it is useful to others. Doesn't mean you can't determine for yourself if you find it useful. If you're looking at round diamonds, as you can see, by looking at those diamonds scoring 100, you are looking at stones scoring under 2 on the HCA. This is confirmation, just like the HCA tool, that the proprtions are likely to lead to strong performance. I'd stick to scores of 97 or better and try to find stones that have ASET or idealscope images to confirm performance. The cut score serves as a very nice way to quickly weed out known poor performers.

I too would urge you to read reviews on any vendor you purchase from. I recently purchased through Enchanted and was perfectly happy with my exchanges. I ended up with a stone that my pricescope recommended independent appraiser confirmed as a really great buy. I checked out their ivouch reviews prior to purchasing and eveything looked good. I will say I think they need to work on their responsiveness to customer emails and inquiries. I had the best luck with the live chat on their web page.

Like I said before, if you see something you like, run it by the community here to see what everyone thinks. If you are ready to buy, make sure to try to keep the stones identity anonymous or have it on hold with the vendor so that lurkers don't snag it. If you aren't looking to purchase, but rather to learn, feel free to post links with your questions and folks here will help you along.

That opinion is not held solely by me. Ask around.

pfunk - I understand your desire to self-validate your purchase (totally legitimate), but this is getting a little ridiculous.
 

pfunk

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Rocky, this has nothing to do with me. I am not self validating my purchase and have no clue how you come to such a conclusion. You don't like enchanted or their cut score. Fine. You take every opportunity you can to steer people away from them. Also fine. But they have satisfied customers, myself included, who have the same freedom to voice their satisfaction. I am trying to help the OP by educating them on the tools they have available. They can choose which they want to use and which they don't. But it's not my job to tell them what is useful to them. Throughout the entire thread I have been trying to offer helpful advice, even recommending they seek a vendor outside of NY if the tax benefit is appealing to them. So I'd appreciate if you didn't come into the thread calling what I have brought to the OP "ridiculous".

I'll leave it at that, as it isnt fair to have the OP's thread diminished to uselessness.
 

diamondseeker2006

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If you want to buy safely out of state and want the best cut diamonds, you can look at Whiteflash and High Performance Diamonds (Cut by Infinity). Those are very reputable vendors with superior super ideal cut stones in-house. They provide images and light performance testing. You might take a look at Victor Canera, as well. He is a master setting maker and also has a selection of hearts and arrows diamonds.

If you want excellent but not top cut quality, you can check out James Allen. They have a wide range of quality even within the range they call ideal. So there is some work narrowing down their stones. But they do offer magnified videos of the stones, and you can select three stones and ask for idealscope images for them. They do not have all stones in house as many of their stones are virtual.

Just to help you narrow things down prior to using HCA, these measurements will help you. (You do not need to use the HCA on AGS Ideal cut stones which WF and HPD will have because those stones have already been evaluate to have ideal light performance.)

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0

pavilion angle: 40.6-41.0

girdle: thin, medium, slightly thick (or combo of those)

If you want very clean, consider VS1. Those inclusions are hard to see with a loupe. That is my favorite ring clarity grade. I do go to VS2-SI1 for earrings. VS2 can be good, too. You have to evalute each stone, though.
 

ghostm42

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I went ahead an took one of the diamonds listed in Enchanted as 100 cut score with GIA cut grade excellent and googled the GIA number. I see the diamond being sold as a ring on Ebay India as:

http://www.ebay.in/itm/1-50-ct-H-VVS2-GIA-Round-Solitaire-Diamond-Engagement-Gold-Ring-2176526160-/400892081358

I take it they have access to the same set of diamonds, but thought it was odd that this ebay listing shows the cut as just being "Very Good". I'm guessing this is a mistake on the Indian seller's part since the GIA report says "Excellent," but is this a cause for concern? And is there a way to check search other websites for specific GIA numbers? Could I email specific vendors and ask what price they are asking for a particular diamond given its GIA number?
 

pfunk

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ghostm42|1427601112|3853967 said:
I went ahead an took one of the diamonds listed in Enchanted as 100 cut score with GIA cut grade excellent and googled the GIA number. I see the diamond being sold as a ring on Ebay India as:

http://www.ebay.in/itm/1-50-ct-H-VVS2-GIA-Round-Solitaire-Diamond-Engagement-Gold-Ring-2176526160-/400892081358

I take it they have access to the same set of diamonds, but thought it was odd that this ebay listing shows the cut as just being "Very Good". I'm guessing this is a mistake on the Indian seller's part since the GIA report says "Excellent," but is this a cause for concern? And is there a way to check search other websites for specific GIA numbers? Could I email specific vendors and ask what price they are asking for a particular diamond given its GIA number?


What the vendor over there calls it is not cause for concern. It is GIA excellent and it is cut towards the center of GIA excellent as opposed to the very edge. If it scores 100 on the cut score and passes the HCA it has proportions that are likely to perform well. As far as I know, you can't search vendors websites using GIA numbers. You would have to ask them if they can get a particular stone you are interested in and what their price would be.
 

ghostm42

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Many thanks to pfunk and others. I recognize some people have bad experience with various vendors or dislike particular vendor practices. I'll make sure to read reviews before committing on any particular vendor.

Perhaps the last item I was curious about is the last statement that pfunk made:
"It is GIA excellent and cut towards the center of GIA excellent as opposed to the very edge."

Just for my own clarification, that statement refers to the range of quality that gets the GIA "Excellent" label and that these HCA/cut scores help identify better diamonds within this range, correct?

Lastly, pfunk, how did you manage to find the first diamond I posted on Enchanted's website without a GIA number search functionality?

Thanks. That's probably all the questions I have for now. Great community you have here.
 

pfunk

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Correct. GIA excellent is a wide category. Some will perform better than others and the HCA and cut score help you pick those out. I typed the GIA report number into enchanted's cut score calculator. You can check a cut score on any GIA graded diamond by entering the report number. If the diamond happens to be for sale on enchanted diamonds website, it will tell you so and provide a link to the stone.
 

Chihuahua6

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RockyRacoon|1427597718|3853948 said:
That opinion is not held solely by me. Ask around.

pfunk - I understand your desire to self-validate your purchase (totally legitimate), but this is getting a little ridiculous.

Exactly. 90% of his posts are Enchanted Enchanted Enchanted. He was a newbie 3-4 months ago and now he's a diamond expert? Where are the pics of the diamond and the ring he purchased? Proposal story? Did she say yes? We dont' know. All we know is that Enchanted is the best. I don't know why the moderators let this go on. :rolleyes:
 

MissGotRocks

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Welcome to PS! There is a wealth of information to be found on this site from both consumers and professionals. In reading over your post, I'd like to add a couple of things:

-Two stones with completely identical specs won't have a 3k price difference. Color and clarity are just two parts of the stone; my guess regarding the price difference is cut quality. I say this because you have not linked the two stones that you are referring to.

-Most posters here are directing you to vendors that have top notch cut stones. Like most of us when we got started, you know very little about diamonds. You assume that you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. You would be surprised to find that you will be able to see a difference between a well cut and a mediocre cut stone. If you were to travel to Good Old Gold, they would be happy to show you the difference. You will be able to learn a lot about diamonds and their differences. I would strongly recommend a trip there since you are In NY.

-GIA triple excellent rated stones do have a much broader range in cut than AGS0 graded stones. My strong advice to you is to find and work with a trusted vendor on selecting a stone or post stones here for recommendation. While your first inclination in choosing a stone makes sense, it is not the way to purchase a diamond.

-As with most things in life, you generally get what you pay for. A G color stone usually represents a great value in terms of color. VVS clarity will generally be thought of as overkill - with the naked eye you will not usually see a difference between VVS and VS clarity although you will pay quite a premium for VVS clarity. Many people, myself included, have SI stones that are completely eye clean. It is a bit harder at times to find them but they are out there. In reading through and viewing diamonds in real life, you will be able to determine your preferences for color and clarity. Some people adjust those to bring down the price of a well cut stone; others want it all and are willing to pay for it. No one here will try to tell you how to spend your money but they will certainly want you to get the best and most well cut stone for your budget.

-Lastly, when considering advice, you can again in a general sense, know that there is truth in numbers. Click on a poster's posts and read through to find what they are saying and recommending. Some members here have been around a long time and have a wealth of knowledge and information to share. You don't want the one lone dissenter's opinion anymore than you want the cheapest stone to be found.

Hope this provides some food for thought. Diamonds are a large expense and you want to make the best choice you can for your money. It is always so wonderful when folks come here BEFORE they buy - saves them a lot of heartache in the end! Best of luck to you and let us know how we can help you!
 

pfunk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
770
Chihuahua6|1427632961|3854072 said:
RockyRacoon|1427597718|3853948 said:
That opinion is not held solely by me. Ask around.

pfunk - I understand your desire to self-validate your purchase (totally legitimate), but this is getting a little ridiculous.

Exactly. 90% of his posts are Enchanted Enchanted Enchanted. He was a newbie 3-4 months ago and now he's a diamond expert? Where are the pics of the diamond and the ring he purchased? Proposal story? Did she say yes? We dont' know. All we know is that Enchanted is the best. I don't know why the moderators let this go on. :rolleyes:

Wow. Another useful post for the OP. Did either you or Rocky even take time to read the thread before running your mouths? I told the OP to go ELSEWHERE to save on taxes. Even though I don't have to prove anything to you, I'll answer to your remarks.

1. Who said I was a diamond expert? Surely not me. I am not an expert and am happy to tell others exactly that. See here: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-and-comparison.211659/#post-3852631#p3852631

2. I am having trouble getting a picture uploaded but here is a link to a video I took of it. I am not entirely sure if I can link to youtube videos so if not, I apologize.

**edited by moderator, no links to personal videos or websites please**

3. The ring is not done yet and I don't think I can post links to the designers website, but I am sure with your investigative skills you can find Gabriel's website and the ring. Model number ER7225W44JJ.

4. What exactly is it that the moderators shouldn't be allowing? Is there some forum rule that I am not following that you have an issue with. Please elaborate.
 

BrownyJones

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
34
I have been following PS for about 4 months now and think that pfunk is actually one of the more thoughtful posters/commenters that can relate to the diamond novice average joe who come here seeking advice. His posts are usually balanced and informative. I think he uses Enchanted diamond frequently as an example of an alternative vendor that gives the consumer more information than Bluenile and other virtual inventory vendors. I have observed that there are two business models for online diamond vendors. The first one has very little information such as bluenile, zoara and others. They are similar to B&M stores that sell all sorts of diamonds, no particular emphasis on cut. There gimmick is that they will be less expensive than the B&M stores. The second business model is based on providing a lot of information and images to convince the consumer that they are getting the best of the best. Because of the internet, this business model works, otherwise, you couldnt have enough salespeople on minimum wage and time in the day for this model to be profitable. This model relies on nonscientific images to convince the avg consumer that they are paying for an italian sportscar that looks like a chevy and has few more sparkles if you know where to look. The problem with comparing diamonds with something functional like a car is that you cant drive a diamond and see how it performs. I was pointed to PS a few months a go who ended up buying a AGS000 superideal after being educated on PS. When we compared stones, mine was cleaner, whiter, same bling and brightness. But he paid 6k more for his, and my stone was much bigger. But I digress.

The attack here on pfunk is unfortunate because he hasnt drank the cool-aid and been brainwashed by the super-ideal mafia. His advice to diamond seekers is usually one that is rational and balanced. He advises the consumer to actually compromise on the 4 Cs while continuing to emphasize that cut is king.

Most PS commenters and posters are great and have been invaluable to the education of the diamond novice like myself. And then there are posters who not only drink the cool aid but also make it and sell it. Those are more comments are more comical than anything. For example, there is a long time member with thousands of posts. My gf and i play this game where every time he recommends a whiteflash diamond, we have to take a shot of whiskey. We finished 2 bottles last week. Since im from houston, my girlfriend thinks i should ask them if i can get a commission or at least a discount when i provide expert diamond advice to the average joe that steers them to a more expensive european sounding le chevelle.

And give josh from ED a break, the guy is in his 20s, who hasnt said something stupid when they were in their 20s. Dumb stereotypes and generalizations might be true but that doesnt mean they are cultural. And im 100% asian
 

pfunk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
770
Thanks Browny. Much appreciated. I am an honest Joe who is honestly here to give my unfiltered, unbiased opinion. It is funny because I actually told my girlfriend how impressed I was with this forum when I first found it and spent COUNTLESS hours reading on it... reading because I wanted to be well educated before I wasted anyones time here. I told her how impressive it was that, even when experts in the field debated, it always seemed to remain civil and very professional. After being here for several months, I see now that I was wrong.

I am a very patient person and put a lot of emphasis on being honest and open with people. The number of people who question my motives here has really tested my patience, and quite frankly makes me feel pretty crappy after taking a considerable amount of time out of my day to try to give helpful feedback.

It is obvious to me that there are a few very prolific posters around here who seem to have their favorite vendors. I don't question why. I don't question when they recommend their stones. What I question is why it is 'ridiculous' for me to do the same. I also see why some folks with different viewpoints around here don't post much. Presumably because they will be made out to be wrong and their opinions diminished. Folks like Rockdiamond and MelisendeDiamonds

Anyway, I don't want to carry on. Just wanted to thank you for seeing the genuine attempt to help others in my posts.
 

JoshuaNiamehr

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
196
ghostm42|1427601112|3853967 said:
I went ahead an took one of the diamonds listed in Enchanted as 100 cut score with GIA cut grade excellent and googled the GIA number. I see the diamond being sold as a ring on Ebay India as:

http://www.ebay.in/itm/1-50-ct-H-VVS2-GIA-Round-Solitaire-Diamond-Engagement-Gold-Ring-2176526160-/400892081358

I take it they have access to the same set of diamonds, but thought it was odd that this ebay listing shows the cut as just being "Very Good". I'm guessing this is a mistake on the Indian seller's part since the GIA report says "Excellent," but is this a cause for concern? And is there a way to check search other websites for specific GIA numbers? Could I email specific vendors and ask what price they are asking for a particular diamond given its GIA number?

You can look that up on the GIA website. The Diamond with GIA Report Number: 2176526160 is listed as Excellent Cut by the GIA.

Here is a link to the GIA Report Check: http://www.gia.edu/report-check-landing

Virtual inventory vendors often have overlapping listings.

Joshua
 

Chihuahua6

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
106
BrownyJones|1427677084|3854289 said:
And then there are posters who not only drink the cool aid but also make it and sell it. Those are more comments are more comical than anything. For example, there is a long time member with thousands of posts. My gf and i play this game where every time he recommends a whiteflash diamond, we have to take a shot of whiskey. We finished 2 bottles last week. Since im from houston, my girlfriend thinks i should ask them if i can get a commission or at least a discount when i provide expert diamond advice to the average joe that steers them to a more expensive european sounding le chevelle.

And give josh from ED a break, the guy is in his 20s, who hasnt said something stupid when they were in their 20s. Dumb stereotypes and generalizations might be true but that doesnt mean they are cultural. And im 100% asian

So people who appreciate the craftsmanship of a superior cut diamond are brainwashed? Interesting.

Cultural stereotypes? Who stereotyped anyone here?

The drinking game sounds like fun though. I should have thought of that one when I was in college, very creative. I'm a little older now so I think I'll just stick to Cool Aid and vodka shots ;))
 

pfunk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
770
Chihuahua6|1427722896|3854486 said:
BrownyJones|1427677084|3854289 said:
And then there are posters who not only drink the cool aid but also make it and sell it. Those are more comments are more comical than anything. For example, there is a long time member with thousands of posts. My gf and i play this game where every time he recommends a whiteflash diamond, we have to take a shot of whiskey. We finished 2 bottles last week. Since im from houston, my girlfriend thinks i should ask them if i can get a commission or at least a discount when i provide expert diamond advice to the average joe that steers them to a more expensive european sounding le chevelle.

And give josh from ED a break, the guy is in his 20s, who hasnt said something stupid when they were in their 20s. Dumb stereotypes and generalizations might be true but that doesnt mean they are cultural. And im 100% asian

So people who appreciate the craftsmanship of a superior cut diamond are brainwashed? Interesting.

Cultural stereotypes? Who stereotyped anyone here?

The drinking game sounds like fun though. I should have thought of that one when I was in college, very creative. I'm a little older now so I think I'll just stick to Cool Aid and vodka shots ;))

Care to address what it is that you feel the moderators should be stepping in for in regards to my posts Chihuahua? And have I provided enough info for you to stop questioning my legitimacy as a customer of Enchanted?
 

Diamond_Hawk

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
1,229
ghostm42|1427562268|3853769 said:
IFor example, if I use the diamond search on this website and specify relatively narrow preferences (ie. 1.5ct, color G, VVS2, HCA excellent, GIA certified), then purchase the cheapest diamond that comes up that meets that criteria, is there a difference between this diamond and one that has identical specifications for $3000 more?

Ghostm42,

In an attempt to bring this thread back to your original question.

NOT ONLY will you see, for the various reasons listed above, that diamonds with the same grading report grades will perform differently (in the broad sense of Color, Clarity, Carat, and Cut) but diamonds with the exact same specific numbers will perform differently.

Here's the reason:

I will start with the broad concept of the "grade"

Each of the 4C's are listed on the grading report: A clarity plot can help determine which diamond with the same clarity grade you may like better, so you will want to consider that - but this grade was reached by a consensus of graders in a laboratory who have seen and evaluated the diamond in person - it is very consistent. The carat weight is determined by scientific measure and color grading again by grader consensus. The cut grade, a function of numbers alone, however - is worth further examination:

The grading report will give you the cut grade - but If you think of this the same way you think of school grades you can see why there are differences. Just because someone is a "A" student does not mean they are destined for Harvard. You simply need more information.

Are they an "A" student, with a 104 average on a scale of 100, but also captain of the debate team, president of the band, a weekend waiter and volunteering 10 hours per week at the Homeless shelter?

Or are they an "A" student with a 91 average and no participation in social clubs, activities, or 'outside' responsibilities.

As an admissions coordinator which would you want? They can be graded, on their report, as an "A Student" but further investigation shows very different versions of the same grade.

This is, in a nut shell, why the light performance images (Ideal-Scope and / or ASET ) are so vital in making determinations between diamonds that have the same excellent cut grade. You simply do not know, without them, whether your diamond is headed to Harvard or Community College.

OK - I can see that, you might think, a broad range of cut proportions qualify for "Excellent".. but what about diamonds with exactly identical numbers - same Crown Angle, Pavilion Angle, Table, etc...

Back, again to performance images - they can tell you about performance beyond even identical numbers.

When GIA grades and measures a diamond, they give you several specifications - table size, crown angle, pavilion angle, etc.. many of these are the numbers you enter into the HCA to get your HCA score.

All of that is terrific - except - these are rounded averages of several measurements.

What does that mean?

There can be dramatic variations in percentages that will result in the same numbers on the certificates. A diamond, for example, that has lower girdle facets all measuring 73 will have a 75% lgf listed... but so will a diamond that measures all 77% - both 77 and 73 will be rounded to indicate a 75%lgf. But the optical performance of the two diamonds will be different. This is why the HCA says <2 is "worth further investigation" and not "buy it immediately!"

Here is a great example, posted by John Pollard earlier this year:



These are two light-performance images of diamonds that would show up with IDENTICAL specs on the grading report.

The performance of these two diamonds is very, very different - but the grades and the 'report card' are indentical.

In summary - even with identical grades, the diamonds are NOT identical. Even with identical numbers (rounded averages) the diamonds are NOT identical. How the proportions function relative to one another (and for many diamonds this is specifically and painstakingly planned by the cutter) determines the actual optical performance of the diamond. Great cut is rarely (never) a 'happy accident' but requires planning and meticulous consideration. Often times a cutter will sacrifice a good bit of 'excess' diamond that could be retained for weight in order to achieve spectacular proportions and thus, one reason you may see price differences between two 'identical' diamonds.

For reference:

If you are not familiar with Ideal-Scope and how to interpret them - you can read up on that here:

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

The original thread which contains the image above and delves into this concept much more deeply is posted here:

https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/experts-needed-on-diamond-proportions-t210439-30.html

59-611-410-355-80-45-tn-med.jpg
 
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