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WHAT SOME DIAMOND SELLERS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW.

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
49
I am a Graduate Gemologist from GIA.

I would like to preface this post by saying there are many honest people in the diamond industry. They are forthcoming with the truth and willing to back up what they say with facts.

Now, that all having been said let me say this. There are many people in the trade that will do several things to confuse or disorient you from knowing what is really the truth about diamonds they sell. Here is one of the worst things that people are victimized by.
Some trades people will use inferior labs for many reasons. One of which is they are more generous about grading than GIA.
But know this, the most important diamonds in the world are all graded by GIA and anyone cutting, selling or buying any significant stone is going to have it graded by GIA. GIA (and this is important) CREATED THE DIAMOND GRADING SCALE and characteristics of diamond grading. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying. That is why you should always buy a GIA certified diamond. They created the process of grading diamonds. But I digress.

What many people do is buy stones that they know very well are not the quality that they are purported to be. Then they sell them as though they were what they should be, instead of what they actually are. Meaning they know perhaps that the cut on a diamond is not very good but it has decent color and clarity so they sell it as though the cut matched the other stats on the stone. They use other labs that will give them higher color grades or higher clarity ratings OR CUT GRADES and then use those false statistics to sell the diamond.

I know of one corporation that preys on military people through targeted advertising. They use inferior labs and information to confuse, and tell people they are as accurate as GIA which is not true. Then they call the managers Gemologist when all they have done is take a test from the company that tells them they are a Gemologist. Which I thought was a riot myself. But they could not certify a diamond in a court of law. And a GIA certified Gemologist CAN. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

It is always best to go to GIA for grading because they are considered by the entire world to be the one place that has the highest standards for the grading of diamonds. Graff has their diamonds graded by GIA, as does Tiffany's, Harry Winston, and every other famous important jewelry house in the world. And most not so famous vendors also use GIA to maintain one standard for everyone.
So use that information for what it's worth. Do you want to believe someone that uses labs to camouflage the truth about a stone or do you go to the leading lab in the world that CREATED DIAMOND GRADING ?

Sometimes people just try to baffle you with BS until you just give in and buy it. And that is pretty easy to do since most people are not well informed about diamonds because they don't plan to buy many. That is an easy one to pull on people. They use pretty charts and photos in fluorescence to impress you when all you need to know is how to read a GIA cert and understand how the numbers work together to create a stone that does what it should.

Most good Gemologists can buy a diamond from a cert using the width and depth you can tell how much fire a diamond is going to have, unless the other facets are way off from a good depth to width ratio. Which happens to be 2% or less difference in depth to width.

Or they will tell you that market trends are changing for this reason or another. The whole point of using GIA is to have ONE STANDARD
for the whole world so that the rules remain the same at all times instead of having some labs use sliding scales to alter the one standard or another.

You should always be careful when you are spending a lot of money on anything as well as diamonds. If your easy to take advantage of then it's hard to feel sorry for you if you let yourself be vulnerable to the point of being gullible.

Most stores have diamonds that are GIA certified and then other stones that are not. Interestingly the GIA diamonds are always more expensive, because they know they are certified by GIA. So your first flag is who or what lab graded the stone ?

Some people sell diamonds that are not graded at all. At that point you would just have to take the sales person word for what that diamond is. And that, I would caution is a very dangerous place to be. It costs $100.00 per carat to have GIA grade a diamond. For a purchase that costs thousands you have to ask yourself WHY would someone sell a diamond that wasn't graded ? And also you should ask yourself why would someone use another lab ? When GIA created the standard for diamond grading ? That is a very good question.

I would never buy a diamond unless it was graded by GIA, that is just me, in the case of smaller diamonds like a one carat I would suppose that it is not a pressing issue, however most people that buy diamonds ARE looking for about a carat stone. So you have to ask yourself why wouldn't someone have it graded if it only costs $100.00 per carat and your spending thousands ? Which is another flag !
I can't think of a reason they wouldn't have GIA grade a diamond.

You can always go to Rapaport news to find some kind of value of diamonds with particular characteristics, but they again use GIA standards on their diamonds to evaluate their worth, and also you have to keep in mind that diamond buyers get considerable discounts from the Rapaport value of diamonds especially if they are big buyers and purchase a lot of stones. So you can get a ball park idea of what a diamond is worth but buyers don't pay those prices for stones either. It is just a guideline for reference.

I always ask why it wasn't graded by GIA ? If they say the other labs are just as good. I know from that point on they are lying. It's a good test to ask someone that question. You can't do something better than the business that created the system. It's just not possible. Anyone that tells you anything different has an agenda of one kind or another. Another thing you can do is tell a seller that you will buy the diamond if they send it to GIA and it comes back with the same stats as the other labs. The dishonest ones will balk at this and hem and haw about why that wouldn't make a difference. The people on this site that are telling you that other labs are as good as GIA are simply lying to you and what's more they know it.

So ask yourself these few questions when your thinking of buying a diamond.

Why isn't the diamond graded by GIA (since they created the diamond grading scale)

Why isn't a diamond graded at all.... ( very important question ) and this situation leaves you completely vulnerable to what ever the sales person wants to tell you... NOT GOOD

And IF they used another lab why would they do that ? What stat on the diamond are they trying to mask with a more generous grading lab ?

After those questions are answered you need to learn what makes a diamond have fire and sparkle, what characteristic of the grading allows this to happen and what characteristic is keeping it FROM happening if it isn't . A diamond should have so much light refraction that the rainbows in the stone actually make it difficult to see the pavilion facets. If this phenomenon does not occur then why and which graded element is keeping it from happening. Proper cutting is what makes this happen unless it is heavily included.

A diamond should not look like a piece of glass that you can see down into easily.
It should be cut so well that the light goes into the stone passes across the pavilion facets and bounces back out the top of the stone.
If it does not do that, there is something wrong. It is your job to find out why and to find a stone that does refract light correctly.
Even brown diamonds refract rainbows if they are cut properly. It is the refractive index of diamonds that makes them beautiful.
It is the sparkle of diamonds that has lured mankind to desire them.

Many of these people trying to sell diamonds know this they are just grateful that you don't know this. There are always in any business the few that give the honest people a bad name by not being honest.

The long and short of it is that if a diamond has 2% or less in depth to width ratio (and providing that the other numbers are not way off from what they should be) it is going to have a lot of light bouncing out the top of the stone in the form of rainbow colored refraction.

Don't be anyone's fool for any reason. If your spending a lot of money, i.e. >more than 10 thousand dollars then you should dig in and learn what you need to know to get value in your diamond. You wouldn't let someone sell you a Volkswagon and tell you it's a Mercedes would you ? Pay attention. And if your spending a lot of money, look around you... if everyone that buys magnificent diamonds has them graded by GIA then who do you think you should have your diamond graded by ?

Don't take anyones word for anything, make them prove it with a GIA cert. Don't let these few babblers throw you off of your focus !
They love to babble & hear their own voices make exceptions for the truth, and make excuses for why they aren't doing what they should.... look around you, and do what smart people do when they are buying a diamond.

No matter what anyone says or how much they babble be logical, and follow what most intelligent people do when they are buying a diamond. It's your money, if you don't care then there are many people ready to take advantage of you. The truth is most honest jewelers will tell you what I have said and they will be happy to get you a GIA certified diamond. It's the other people you should be worried about. I know many honest jewelers and they will tell you exactly what I have written here. And they would be happy to get you a GIA certified diamond of your choice.

If they start trying to tell you that the other labs are the same, you should be cautious from that point on. Ask any of the finest jewelers in the world and they would all agree.
Please be aware of anyone that tells you anything different. The most important people in diamonds are not all wrong.
Be wise, be alert and don't trust anyone that deviates from the norms. If they do there is a reason. Find out what it is.
Jamiegems G. G.
 

24caratsequin

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
39
I'm no expert, but one point I wished to make is that I believe Tiffany diamonds are graded in-house rather than by GIA. Image attached is a screenshot from their site.



As for the rest, I look forward to hearing feedback from more experienced forum members than I.

imageuploadedbytapatalk1425292273.jpg
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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24caratsequin

This is a quote from Melvyn Kirtley WHO IS THE HEAD OF TIFFANY GEMOLOGICAL LABORATORY IN THE UK
HE IS A GIA EDUCATED GRADUATE GEMOLOGIST. JUST LIKE MYSELF, SO YOUR POST ISN'T REALLY VALID.

Melvyn Kirtley (MK): I don’t really agree with that — it’s an interesting combination. My interest for gems was initially sparked off when I started working for Tiffany & Co. I then decided to pursue this interest further on a more professional level, and went to the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) to learn more about the field.

Please try to be accurate when posting on the site because remarks like that can mislead people into thinking what you saying is true when it isn't. GIA rules the world in diamond grading and there isn't an equal to their lab. The people that come on this site are asking for honest help and your inference would mislead people who are not aware of the facts.

Tiffany before their own lab, in the past, have always used GIA and they NOW are using GIA Gemologists in their own lab. In the past they have always used G VVs diamonds < that is using the GIA diamond grading scale. And as you can see from the quote of the head of their lab they are GIA Graduate Gemologists.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
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24caratsequin|1425292205|3840623 said:
I'm no expert, but one point I wished to make is that I believe Tiffany diamonds are graded in-house rather than by GIA.
Correct. They use GIA nomenclature, but grade their diamonds internally.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Jaimiegems,
I am not sure who you think you are lecturing to here, but there are many, many knowledgeable consumers and prosumers reading this board. It is also not necessary to scream in all caps.

You seem to intent on spreading alot of fear along with a hefty portion of misinformation.

Do yourself a favor and dial down the histrionics a notch or two.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
49
John Pollard

They do use the system of GIA but they also are GIA trained Gemologist, which I think I made quite clear in the earlier post.

I even quoted the Head of Tiffany Gemological Labs in which he stated that he was trained and Graduated from GIA.

Obviously you didn't really take the time to read what was there. They do grade their gems internally by GIA Graduate Gemologists.

jamiegems G. G.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
49
Texas Leaguer

You should probably be more concerned in people learning the truth instead of trying to father someone's caps lock. And if your that knowledgeable you wouldn't find any half truths. Some of the trades people on here are more opinion that facts.
I haven't said anything that wasn't the truth and if you had all the education that you think you have you would know that.

Just because someone sells jewelry and gemstones for a long period of time does not give them the education in the field. It means they sell things. If some of these people were REAL Gemologists instead of opinionated people there would be a lot more truth on here and a lot fewer opinions from uneducated babblers.

So if you some of you could tone down your opinions and back them up with facts the people that come on here would get a much better education that involves the truth no opinions.

And stroking egos by telling uneducated people they are knowledgable isn't honest. I don't see any G. G after you name either. Just more opinions from a trade person.

jamiegems G. G.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems|1425347409|3840958 said:
Texas Leaguer

You should probably be more concerned in people learning the truth instead of trying to father someone's caps lock. And if your that knowledgeable you wouldn't find any half truths. Some of the trades people on here are more opinion that facts.
I haven't said anything that wasn't the truth and if you had all the education that you think you have you would know that.

Just because someone sells jewelry and gemstones for a long period of time does not give them the education in the field. It means they sell things. If some of these people were REAL Gemologists instead of opinionated people there would be a lot more truth on here and a lot fewer opinions from uneducated babblers.

So if you some of you could tone down your opinions and back them up with facts the people that come on here would get a much better education that involves the truth no opinions.

And stroking egos by telling uneducated people they are knowledgable isn't honest. I don't see any G. G after you name either. Just more opinions from a trade person.

jamiegems G. G.
Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but you are not going to get far with hostility.

You have already been challenged by experts on several material facts and you have not yet had a coherent response (much less a rational/respectful one).

If your intent is to flame out before you even get started here, you are taking exactly the right approach.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems:

In your original post you said:
Jamiegems said:
Graff has their diamonds graded by GIA, as does Tiffany's...
Sorry but Tiffany's does not send their diamonds to be "graded by GIA."

Of course Tiffany's diamond graders are GIA trained. The diamond graders in many places are GIA trained. I am GIA trained... But that does not make me "GIA." And it does not make Tiffany's grading floor "GIA" either.

I hope this helps.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
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John Pollard

And the Gemologists at Tiffany are not GIA trained (as you call it) They are Graduate Gemologists the jewelry sales program is not quiet the same. More smoke and mirrors less facts.


If you were GIA trained you would be responding differently unless all you did was go to the jewelry sales program which is NOT the same as being a Graduate Gemologist and if you were you would say so.

The jewelry sales program is for sales people and a very minor part of what GIA does.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
49
Texas Leaguer

Challenged by whom and with what credentials are you speaking. Challenging someone and being able to back it up with facts are two different things. Unless your a Graduate Gemologist from GIA you don't have the knowledge to challenge me in any, jewelry or gemstone arena. Just more opinions from people that sell things but are uneducated in the field that you keep saying your an expert in ?

From where does your expertise eminate ? The sales floor ?

Jamiegems G. G.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems said:
John Pollard

If you were GIA trained you would be responding differently unless all you did was go to the jewelry sales program which is NOT the same as being a Graduate Gemologist and if you were you would say so.

The jewelry sales program is for sales people and a very minor part of what GIA does.
Hi Jamiegems,

You're right. I'm one course short of my GG. I do have university diplomas in Science, Education and Music, but was a professional teacher for 17 years before joining the diamond trade. The gemology studies came since then. I really should fetch that last class.

Can you tell me (sincerely): How do you think my response would change after one more course?

(By the way: Texas Leaguer is a GG... FYI)
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
49
I am here to educate and enlighten people that need HONEST help.... but I bet the two of you both sell things to people and use the forum to gather customers. And I knew when I told the truth about the labs and sales tactics people use it would ruffle feathers but I really don't care to watch people being taken advantage of by uneducated people with a very limited knowledge base to work with.

jamegems G. G.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
49
I am not here to play games with any of you.

But the truth is that many of the trades people on here misguide people and lure them into believing half truths and vague opinions about, what a diamond is and how it should be graded and the importance of certain aspects of the diamond industry. Stroking people egos instead of teaching them the truth are worlds apart.

If either of you were being honest you would admit what I said about the GIA lab was correct. GIA has instruments they paid 10s of millions of dollars for that are patented and other labs can't even buy them IF they even had the money and tell people that other labs are the same is an out right lie. And people should know that because all of the important diamonds in the world are graded by them.
If you don't agree your just misinformed. It's just that simple.

And Pollard watch out for that last class. To become a Graduate Gemologist you can't even make one mistake you don't Graduate.

I am not going to mislead people for posters on here that are not armed with the proper education to teach others about Jewelry and Gemstones. I did my work and passed my exams the first time. Thank you.

I'm sorry that the truth bothers some of you so much but I am not going to play sales games and gather the innocent people into your lair's to be lied to and taken advantage of on here. I knew I would get this response, but I would rather be honest with people than have the respect of sales people that mislead innocent people on here that are looking for guidance. If you don't uphold the integrity of the industry then your nothing more than part of the problem that jewelers have in keeping our reputation in tact.
If you don't like it that is just too bad.

Jamiegems G. G.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems|1425351271|3840992 said:
I am here to educate and enlighten people that need HONEST help.... but I bet the two of you both sell things to people and use the forum to gather customers. And I knew when I told the truth about the labs and sales tactics people use it would ruffle feathers but I really don't care to watch people being taken advantage of by uneducated people with a very limited knowledge base to work with.

jamegems G. G.
Jamiegems, that's a worthy goal.

I started my gemological journey as a consumer. In researching diamonds (background in Science) I developed a love for technical aspects of diamond cutting and science. Eventually I was asked to join the business by some of the contacts I made. I didn't at first. But over time my excitement about the trade - especially the global nature of it - convinced me to make the leap.

As a career teacher I'm all about education. This forum is a great place to share knowledge. And it's a great place to expand your own horizons.

You seem to have a concern about labs other than GIA. No worries, your concern is shared. The recent position Rapaport has taken relative to EGL is something that is long needed. However as it relates to AGS in Las Vegas (founded by Robert Shipley just like GIA), it's a boutique lab that many on this forum acknowledge because of their cut-grading metric and strict standards. Did you know that GIA is one of the prime supporters of the AGS Conclave? The principals of GIA attend it each year... And AGS is one of the prime supporters of the GIA Symposium. The two labs are extremely close. I have great respect for both - and many friends at both including the Yanzter brothers (Peter works for AGS, Phil works for GIA).

And Pollard watch out for that last class. To become a Graduate Gemologist you can't even make one mistake you don't Graduate.
Understood. As I said, I was a teacher for 17 years. I have a great love for diamonds and gemstones, and plenty of intrinsic motivation. I just need the time in the schedule to knock that class out.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
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49
Yes I am ware of AGS and I've no doubt that they are valid. And I do not wish to speak for GIA in any official capacity, on the other hand GIA maintains a working relationship with people that grow their own diamonds as well. In fact while I was in school in Carlsbad they even had them in for a class and lecture, but they were not worried about them being any sort of threat to the industry as well since it is so costly to create diamonds, it is actually cheaper to buy a real one.
We were told that as students of the GIA base school in Carlsbad that we were were expected to be exceptional in all aspects of our diamond industry positions.
It is easy to be gracious when your on top.
That is to say that GIA has nothing to worry about with AGS because in reality they are not ever going to be a threat to the institution of GIA and it's place in the world of diamond grading.

But as far as this site goes I am infuriated when I see someone trying to back another person that is selling a 3 carat N colored diamond for 30 thousand dollars and then that person has found other better deals and is a little confused but being led to the slaughter by some of these trades people, I am on fire ! All I said was it would be wise to look around, and all I got for my honesty was verbally backhanded by several trades people obviously for throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Some of these people on here are looking for honest guidance and help and when I see a vulture zeroing in on them I get angry.

I stand by everything I have posted. And I will continue to tell these people the truth every chance I get. And the truth is in this day and age it behooves everyone to be aware at all times when someone has a vested interest in their motives while dealing with people that have little or no knowledge base to work with. On this site we should be the social workers of the uneducated and uninformed and I am not going to lead people astray for anyone's benefit.

And thank you Pollard for being kind enough to tone down this attack on me for being honest.

I am used to selling pieces for hundreds of thousands of dollars and I, when working, am always honest with my customers. I tell them what is good about their diamond and what is bad or questionable and offer to find a better stone if they are willing to pay more for it. I never leave them in the dark about spending a lot of their money. They deserve that, everyone does.
The integrity of our industry relies upon our honesty.
jamiegems G. G.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Jamiegems|1425354720|3841022 said:
Yes I am ware of AGS and I've no doubt that they are valid. And I do not wish to speak for GIA in any official capacity, on the other hand GIA maintains a working relationship with people that grow their own diamonds as well. In fact while I was in school in Carlsbad they even had them in for a class and lecture, but they were not worried about them being any sort of threat to the industry as well since it is so costly to create diamonds, it is actually cheaper to buy a real one. We were told that as students of the GIA base school that were were expected to be exceptional in all aspects of our diamond industry positions.
It is easy to be gracious when your on top.
That is to say that GIA has nothing to worry about with AGS because in reality they are not ever going to be a threat to the institution of GIA and it's place in the world of Diamond grading.

But as far as this site goes I am infuriated when I see someone trying to back another person that is selling a 3 carat N colored diamond for 30 thousand dollars and then person has found other better deals and is a little confused but being led to the slaughter by some of these trades people, I am on fire ! All I said was it would be wise to look around, and all I got for my honesty was verbally backhanded by several trades people obviously for throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Some of these people on here are looking for honest guidance and help and when I see a vulture zeroing in on them I get angry.

I stand by everything I have posted. And I will continue to tell these people the truth every chance I get. And the truth is in this day and age it behooves everyone to be aware at all times when someone has a vested interest in their motives while dealing with people that have little or no knowledge base to work with. On this site we should be the social workers of the uneducated and uninformed and I am not going to lead people astray for anyone's benefit.

And thank you Pollard for being kind enough to tone down this attack on me for being honest.

I am used to selling pieces for hundreds of thousands of dollars and I, when working am always honest with my customers. They deserve that. Everyone does. The integrity of our industry relies upon our honesty.
jamiegems G. G.
Nobody is attacking you Jamiegems. It seems to be quite the other way around. People are remarking about some of the curious things you are saying and asking you to simply calm down and explain yourself.

It is wonderful that you are coming to the rescue of all those who "are being led to slaughter". I've always said that all this forum lacks is a "social worker of the uneducated and uninformed". It seems we finally have one.

I applaud you for being such a staunch advocate for GIA. However, I am not entirely sure they knew what kind of ambassador they were getting when they awarded you a credential.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems|1425354720|3841022 said:
That is to say that GIA has nothing to worry about with AGS because in reality they are not ever going to be a threat to the institution of GIA and it's place in the world of diamond grading.
100% correct. AGS doesn't try to be a threat. They hover at around 2% of market share. Their niche is in-depth optics / cut-quality assessment, which is predictably appealing in an e-commerce situation.

But as far as this site goes I am infuriated when I see someone trying to back another person that is selling a 3 carat N colored diamond for 30 thousand dollars and then that person has found other better deals and is a little confused but being led to the slaughter by some of these trades people, I am on fire ! All I said was it would be wise to look around, and all I got for my honesty was verbally backhanded by several trades people obviously for throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Some of these people on here are looking for honest guidance and help and when I see a vulture zeroing in on them I get angry.
I didn't see the thread. Do know that the majority of posters here are consumer enthusiasts. On the whole they honestly work to help and have a vast knowledge base. Logically, they are also accustomed-to and recommend only the sellers they have personally used. It's a double-edged sword. The consumers here are quite knowledgeable as a collective. But it's important for experienced pros to offer opinions as well.

If I may: One thing I noticed in another thread is you citing a 2% depth to width ratio rule, as it relates to optical performance. It may help to know that this place is like a convention of surgeons when it comes to cut-quality. Top minds in the trade contribute here. Some of us have invested years in-collaboration and consultation with the major labs on this topic. So, as it relates to the 2% rule I'd like to hear what you're referencing and have an open discussion. Can you elaborate?

And thank you Pollard for being kind enough to tone down this attack on me for being honest.
You may call me John. And no problem. I honestly don't think there's an intent to attack, although I understand how one could get that impression. There are strong opinions here, and honest ones. With new shoppers, hobbyists, salespeople, appraisers, manufacturers, researchers (and of course spammers) all contributing from different perspectives - comments can seem alien or loaded. At the end of the day, even after many years of contributing here, I find myself learning just as much as teaching.

The integrity of our industry relies upon our honesty.
Absolutely. It's also a fundamental principal of education.
 

Jamiegems

Rough_Rock
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John
the 2% rule is something that I learned even before I went to GIA. I was being groomed to work at a very high end jewelry store.
The buyers would never buy any diamond unless the depth (the entire depth) and the width of the crown were within 2%. It sets the stage for optimum refraction. However even at GIA when we discussed it they agreed but said, and I agree, also that the variables that are in play here are so many, such as, crown depth and angle does the pavilion set perfectly at the bottom of the stone. Is the table the proper width, are the facets altered (any of them) so it only applies to a stone that is within the almost perfect cutting range. But I tend to only care about diamonds in that range. I am not and never have been a person that looks for what can be tolerated in a stone. It also applies to other cuts but you have to know what the tolerances are for that particular cut. And as you know many fancy cuts are bottom heavy or barrels on the bottom for weight retention.

I go for as good as I can find. If any angle or placement is very far off I won't consider selling or buying a stone like that. What my instructors told me at GIA was there is leeway in certain things i.e. if the crown is off in certain aspect you can adjust others to compensate but when you start playing that game you give up the search for perfection. At that point your juggling concepts about what you have to change to compensate for this flaw or that instead of staying within the rules of the game. It's not something I think anyone should start doing because you have to be a mathematician to play that game and also you have to be able to prove it.... There were certain things they told us that you could compensate for in other areas but they didn't go into great detail about too many of them. Because it is the object of a proper cut to stay within the rules. But the rule does stand if you look at a diamond within 2% of depth to width you will find that it refracts so much light you can hardly see the pavilion facets. However saying that means that the rest of the stone has to also be very close to perfect dimensions. Try it sometime and you will see that if all the other rules are followed in the cut and the depth to width ratio is within 2% the diamond will almost glow with refraction. In all beautiful diamonds, you really can't see the pavilion facets in incandescent & natural light. I realize that most people are not willing to buy a diamond like that but it is the goal of cutter to achieve this.
In the final analysis what matters is does the stone sparkle so much that you can barely see the pavilion facets in incandescent and natural light. The very best diamonds all do it. You can only see that in person you can't do it with photos. You have to see the diamond. Check certain places out sometimes like Blue nile and the rule works there. I just did it a couple of nights ago. The most expensive diamonds they had were within 2 or 3 % of the depth to width ratio and they were also the most expensive. That is why they possess the fire. Go to Blue nile right now and look at the stones they have, go to " find a diamond" G or better. 10carats > and at least one V in the clarity.... the rules stands.
I can pick a diamond from a cert. The cutters know this, so does Graff and Tiffany cutters. All of the important cutters know this. Graff is where I go to look at huge perfectly cut diamonds. I was going to work for them once in Las Vegas but didn't want to live there.
The manager gave me the job but I left the city instead. That is why I said in one of my posts that if the arrows and hearts are there
it is all that is necessary, they don't have to be perfect if the other rules are followed. And of course the Chinese that started polishing the hearts and arrows lent a great deal to the diamond world by proving that polish matters.
 

Jamiegems

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And JOHN

What ever part of your life you in, if you can afford to do it Stop move to Carlsbad, for six months, go get you GG at the Institute. You get things when you go there that you don't get at any of the other schools. Significant people in the Industry just drop by they will actually stop things and let some of those people give a lecture. People that are Graduates and sell significant jewels drop in and show them to classes.

And you learn more from being there than any of the other places they teach classes, even New York doesn't get the special traffic
the institute gets, and they have the library and museum as well. It's an amazing place to learn.

Just a thought but someone with your education would enjoy it very much. Knowledge is power.

Jamiegems G. G.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jamiegems
can you please give me an example of your 2% depth to width rule?... :confused:
 

MollyMalone

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Dancing Fire|1425369840|3841107 said:
Jamiegems
can you please give me an example of your 2% depth to width rule?... :confused:
Yes, a concrete example would be very helpful.
 

Jamiegems

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The entire depth of the stone + the entire width of the crown. On most diamonds you see them being close but if you adhere to the
rule or better yet exactly the same, even the 2% veers away from perfect math, what your doing really is creating a perfect box mathematically to start with. Which makes the other angles and and tolerances to have a mathematical base to work with. That is how the original ideal cut was achieved was with math. That is how fire in a stone is achieved by mathematical calculations. and if you start with a base that is a perfect square then the other calculations become more relevant in a math calculation. Is it not true that we are dealing with math here ? All of the facets are math. so if you start with a perfect box then the other angles make more sense. The other angles and degrees of angles are all math.

That is how the ideal cut was born.

Thus, if you know how to force light into the stone (by way of table & crown facets,) can you not then direct it back out again with the math it takes to control the light once it's inside the stone ? I say yes it's all math not hit or miss. The ideal cut was created by math
and it is by mathematical calculations that the light is controlled into the stone around IN the stone and back out again.
 

24caratsequin

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Do you have an example of a diamond that adheres to that rule?
 

MollyMalone

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Jamiegems|1425370902|3841109 said:
The entire depth of the stone X the entire width of the crown.
I think you mistyped? multiplying the depth times the width doesn't result in a percentage
 

Jamiegems

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That is how a Gemologist can pick a diamond from a cert. it's math, Just look at the cert and then ask yourself are you starting with a perfect box,( or even close to a perfect box) meaning are the width and depth the same, then follow the light. The ideal cut was designed by this method. After you have decided that you have started with a perfect box then it goes without saying that you can in fact
place the light into the stone, so then can you control it while it is in the stone and can you make exit where you want ?
 

Jamiegems

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I didn't say that it did, I said if your working on exactly the same width and depth you have the measurements of a perfect box.
And I didn't say anything about multiplying anything.


Sorry. I didn't mean that X to mean multiply I meant you take the exact width and the exact hight of the stone.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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24caratsequin|1425371216|3841110 said:
Do you have an example of a diamond that adheres to that rule?
Still waiting for an example... :confused: Please post a GIA report.
 

Jamiegems

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If the width and depth match perfectly you have created a perfect box to begin the math meaning if a diamond is (as an example)
60.04 depth 60.04 width then mathematically have you not created a perfect box to begin the calculation ?
From there all other angles relate in a mathematical way.
 

Jamiegems

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Dancing Fire I don't have a GIA report that has those exact measurements, but look at ANY cert and see how close to a perfect box they begin with. Meaning how close is the depth to width. Any cert will do.... what i'm saying is that the closer the depth to width ratio is
the better the fire will be, assuming that the other angles and cuts are where they should be.

The ideal cut was created by math not helter skelter by a "oh lets try this .... there is a reason why when it is cut properly that the light comes back out the top of the stone, and the answer is math.
 
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