In the market for a vinatage cushion cut ~$30k

[Sluggo94]

My girlfriend picked out a diamond and retailer that she loves.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/3ct-n-vs2-august-vintage-cushion-diamond.html
https://www.pricescope.com/diamond/51f76144f6ad02dc28bd84904c0b0042

She loves the cut, the size, and the warmer color. And this diamond doesn't have any visible flaws - we looked at it in the store. She recommended that I check here to make me feel more confident before purchasing. Using the search tool I cannot find any comps for a 3 carat N vs2 with a vintage cut.

I see, however, that I can purchase a 3.62 J vs2 modern cushion for the same price - about $31k. I also see that modern cushions between 3.0 to 3.1 carat, L to N color, and vs1 to vs2 clarity range in price from $12k to $15k. So it seems I would be paying double the price for this truly amazing cut, including the chunky facets. I am concerned about the lack of market data, and I do not want to overpay.

Is there a very small market for these kind of diamonds? With modern technology, shouldn’t cut be the least expensive of the four Cs? Can anyone point me to better comps?

Any advice or opinions on this diamond or other similar diamonds would be appreciated.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Typically cut is the most important and expensive part of a diamond that is hard to understand bc most often you have to start with a larger rough diamond to yield a precision cut. So even though two diamonds are both 1 carat the original rough for the ideal cut diamond was most likely larger than the one for the poorly cut diamond thus making the precision stone more expensive.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Personally I would spend that money on an actual antique http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...ue-cushion-cut-diamond-gia-n-si1#.VPJVzvnF98E

 

[Sluggo94]

Asscherhalo_lover,

Both of your replies are VERY helpful. Thank you!

 

[arkieb1]

There is a relatively small market for these stones mainly for people that can understand and appreciate the cut of them. In this case you have to weigh up if you like the stone enough to want something like that and I personally would also be thinking about the colour, it is in a colour range that will restrict resale even further unless of course you trade it back in at Good Old Gold.

So basically I guess what I am saying is if you appreciate the cut and both of you are never going to want to sell it or upgrade it anywhere other than where you purchased it then it is worth it to you. If you do think you might upgrade or sell one day then very few buyers want a stone that colour even a well cut one and this will limit how much you get back for it and possibly the number of potential buyers. But you can use GOGs upgrade policy....

I personally would be going for a smaller slightly higher coloured AVC from either GOG or from Victor Canera because it will have I think, a better resale value, if you seek a perfectly cut Antique cushion. Or as another member has suggested if you like this style of cushion contact Grace at Jewels by Grace, Erica at Love Affair Diamonds and phone Adam at Old World Diamonds and ask them what they have and what they can find for you. Buying a genuine Antique cushion will be cheaper.

 

[Sluggo94]

arkieb1, thank you for your very helpful reply!

 

[treasurehunter]

different cuts have different wastage of rough...!

modern cushions are based around weight retention of rough - between different cushions there are different prices due to the cutting style, Crushed ice - cushion brilliant 68+ pavilion depth are cut for price
Cushion modified brilliants can be 20 % more expensive

cutting an antique cushion requires cutting one diamond out of the rough when potentially they could have got two !
so of course its a different price .

real antique cuts unfortunately have generally symmetry and polish issues as well as the angles are not cut with the same precision of AVC cusion , Leon mege or victor canera antique style modern antique cushion cuts.

Both real antique cushions or modern cushions will not compare at all to one of these cuts and your gf will be dissapointed.

 

[RandG]

I agree with Treasurehunter. Pricescope is just littered with countless examples of antique cushions with "issues" that would simply never compare to a modern reproduction precision cut stone sold at an excessive premium over Rap.

I'm sure many women would be "disappointed" in the lovely, bigger, more cost appropriate, GIA certified true old cut posted by Asscherhalo.

 

[ccuheartnurse]

That cushion Assherhalo posted is simply GORGEOUS. Not only a lot bigger but a lot less money too without compromising on quality. It is GIA certed as well. If I wasn't so colour sensitive, I would bring this baby home. LOL

Just an FYI from personal experience....dont put too much emphasis on the trade up issue...for any vendor. I would seriously consider the stone posted. Do you think you would go higher than 4.20 ct in future? Bezel or halo it for a larger look, it will be massive. And if you did want to upgrade to a bigger one, can you imagine the jump in cost even with a trade in? Things to consider.

Edited to add: The 4.20ct stone is definitely a cushion but the shape is a bit more rounded than the 3ct one. Your future wife might want a cushion today & in a cushion setting, the stone would look like a cushion. But say in 10yrs she might decide she would like a change to a round stone. The stone is such you can play it up to emphasize its roundness. I recently tried on a cushion with a similar shape. What was fun about it was that while it did look like a cushion, the possibility was there should I want to make it look more rounded. I do like the round shape in a cushion halo kind of idea but this way, the stone would just come off round in a round setting. Does this make sense? LOL

All the best in your decision.

 

[pyramid]

I like the fire in the 4 carater but could not live with N color, would rather a 1.5 carat G or H for the same price.

 

[Travelgal]

a couple of questions: how many stones has your girlfriend seen in person? Has she been hunting for a while and now found her dream stone or is she fairly new in the process? I ask, because while I love AVC stones, I do think that's a lot to spend on an N colored stone.

Is your girlfriend open to actual antique stones? I like the other one posted. Here is another that is very similar in size (dimensions) and two color grades better and significantly less. http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/loose-diamond-2-01cts-and-larger#.VPNaakc76K0

$30k is a very healthy budget and while I don't want to influence you one way or another (especially if she's found her dream stone), it does seem like a lot for the stone you posted. (Please don't rip me to shreds PSer's- I know there was a lot of development into the cut of the stone, loss, etc that makes it a more costly stone cut, just wondering if she is open to other stones).

 

[Rhino]

Greetings Sluggo,

It was a pleasure to meet you in the store the other day. Your fiance was wise in suggesting to post. Always bear in mind people tend to inject personal bias' when offering opinions but there is some misinformation being shared in this thread that I am compelled to address.

Jamiegem states:

In the final analysis what matters the most is how much she loves it. How ever that having been said, I would say it is very expensive for what you could get. N colored diamonds are very warm in color meaning it has a great deal of yellow.
I am a graduate Gemologist from GIA (class of 0 I would say look around more.

This suggestion begs the question ... How many times has this "gemologist" taken rough or even a finished stone of considerably heavier weight to cut a diamond that has perfect Optical Symmetry coupled with AGS Ideal polish, symmetry, proportion factors and light performance? If however you prefer a commercially cut diamond cut for weight, non ideal optics, non ideal anything similar to others being offered, that is actually much easier to attain or acquire and if that is what your lady desires we are happy to serve in that capacity.

It is a very pretty diamond to look at and I am sure she does like it, and the cut I would say is very nice because of the symmetry it has when I looked at it face up in the photo. And it is true that modern cut cushions are better because techniques are so much better now.
They are basing the price of this diamond on the Vs clarity.

1/4 true. Clarity is only 1 of 4 factors contributing to the value. **edited by moderator, please comply with our policies** The fact of the matter is if we were not able to cut this product and price it competitively in relation to ideal cuts on the market we would have never went forward with the AVC line. **edited by moderator, please comply with our policies**
Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[Sluggo94]

Thanks to all for your responses.

My primary concern was that I didn’t want to overpay for the cut. My main take away from the responses is that, assuming comparable carat, color and clarity, the remarkable cut of the GOG stone does merit a significant price premium over both modern cushions and actual antiques. From there it’s a matter of personal preference. Seeing the antique cushion from Jewels by Grace was very helpful. We can go up in size and spend 20% less at the expense of having visible asymmetry and a cluster of inclusions near the center. There is no obvious right or wrong answer.

As for color, we have consciously decided to stay in the L to N range because we’re going to set it in yellow gold, and the price effect of going down from whiter stones is pretty transparent. So I think we’re eyes wide open there.

Again, thanks to everyone. I feel much more informed.

 

[heididdl]

Love the GOG stone as well as the response fromm GOG.....Not a fan of the shape of the 4 carat stones. if you are firm with the N-L color then I would go with GOG....They are very well respected (so is Grace) but I would love to own a diamond from GOG

 

[arkieb1]

Maybe what you need to do is actually take your girlfriend, and both go and see some decent cut antique cushions somewhere like Old World Diamonds, Singlestone or with Grace. There are numerous debates on here the purists (particularly those with vested interests selling and marketing them) saying that the new Old cuts are so much better and on the flip side a bunch of people who appreciate Antiques as unique pieces more than the new cut stones as well. I personally have a great issue with vendors and others stating all genuine old cuts must be automatically lacking performance wise by comparison.

While on the one hand there probably aren't a heap of dog stones AVCS and AVRs out there other than the odd clarity enhanced one and the odd one full of inclusions and there are plenty of dog cut genuine vintage cushions, BUT, there are stunning genuine antique cut ones available as well. I've owned both an AVC and a vintage cushion and I personally preferred the light performance (shock horror I know) the larger crown height and the over all non conformity of the Antique stone. But we are all different, a lot of people like AVCs better. AVCs are really safe bets for people who don't know how to find a decent cut elsewhere.

I admit AVCs and AVRs are glorious in larger sizes because you get to appreciate the uniform facet pattern, if that is what does it for you.

If it were me I would keep an open mind try on as much as possible and if nothing you find compares to the AVC or that is the only thing she really really ends up liking then you can walk away knowing for sure you got the best possible stone for you. None of our opinions matter she needs to try on a heap of things and work out which one is best for both of you.

 

[treasurehunter]

Dear Rhino ,

What kind of price difference in percentage more or less is there between the AVC cushion and a standard modern crushed ice if assuming all other factors are equal - clarity , color etc

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Response removed...

 

[Jamiegems]

Sluggo94

Be careful of people in the trade that will say anything to make a sale. Usually when they try to dissect a Gemologist statements it means that they are a sales person not a qualified Gemologist.
Why you would want to take heed is because a Gemologist isn't necessarily in the trade as a sales person. We are trained to grade diamonds.
People that have an axe to grind or in this case a sale to make will say many things to discount the truth. So be careful about buying something from someone who is always trying to find fault with another poster.
Sometimes people that have been sales people for a long time think they know more than they actually do, much of the time.
I trust you are smart enough to be ever vigilant when buying anything that is expensive. You have a great deal of money to spend and you should get value for your dollar.

These type diamonds are considered CAPE diamonds they are not white and they don't have enough color to be considered fancy yellow
or brown (trades people call brown diamonds champagne ) AT GIA they are graded as brown diamonds. So they are in a range that trade people call cape diamonds.

The truth is there is no reason not to look around and be sure before you buy any stone. A GIA Graduate Gemologist is trained to be able to look at a cert and tell you many things about a diamond. People that sell diamonds will say almost anything to make a sale. I have nothing to gain or lose from telling you the truth. On the other hand this person has 30K to gain by swaying your uneducated opinion their way...(do you catch my drift here ?)

Here is one way to test the value of a diamond...
First, make sure you have a return policy in which you will get your money fully returned in cash, not just store credit. And get this In writing, not just a casual "sure we will type response."
Then take the stone to a gemologist any GIA Graduate Gemologist or a diamond buyer and ask them what they would give you for it. And you will find out very fast what the actual value of a diamond is.
It's a lifetime purchase so you want to be sure when make you final decision that you have done well. Your spending a great deal of money, so make sure your getting value for your dollars.

And you don't over pay for a cut, you pay for the quality of the diamond and that is all you pay for. If you tried to sell a diamond no one is going to say to you this is an expensive cut, they are going to say it's an N colored stone which lowers it's value considerably and they are going to look at the cert to find any reason to lower the value since they are considering buying it from you. So get a buyers view so you have both sides of the picture. And Sluggo94 it would not be wise to go to someone that was suggested by the person trying to sell you the stone.
Be careful no matter what your buying for that kind of money. You have some time so I still say look around and see what is out there. NO reason to rush. The market for N colored diamonds is not very big since most people are trying to for D > G colored diamonds. As far as I am concerned your in the drivers seat here not the sales person. They wouldn't necessarily want you to know that N colored diamonds are not very popular.
Hope this helps you.
jamiegems G. G.

 

[MollyMalone]

Jamiegems, I'm wondering why you declare "the actual value" of a stone just purchased by a consumer is determined by what a diamond buyer will buy it for? I would be surprised if anyone who deals in diamonds were to pay more than the wholesale price for any diamond -- that's not truly unique/of rare provenance -- when they can easily get a comparable stone for the wholesale price & then flip it for greater profit than if they buy the consumer's stone at a higher-than-wholesale price. (And if were I the buyer, I imagine I'd offer less than wholesale because I'd figure the person wants quick money, and s/he is unlikely to be a future customer.)

Someone not in the trade should not expect, however, to be able to turn around & promptly purchase an equivalent stone, from an established vendor who can be counted on to honor a decent refund policy, for a wholesale-or-lower price. So your yardstick doesn't seem useful to us consumers.

 

[Jamiegems]

The diamond wasn't purchased he is still looking first of all. And the point of selling something is to make a fair profit, not fleece the buyer. Unless maybe you think that's ok. And if so fine. I prefer not to be taken advantage of when I buy anything.
The point is Molly that a buyer is going to give you as little as possible not even the wholesale price for a diamond. The point of the post was to say that a decent profit is what an honest dealer would sell it for but many try to get many times more than that and it doesn't seem really fair to the consumer does it ? If it does to you then I suppose you get what ever happens to you when you go out to buy a diamond. You should be able to expect to get value for your money not just pay multiple times for something that just isn't worth it.
If you want to pay a lot more than you should for a diamond then fine it's your money. Most people would like to get value for their dollar not be a victim. Of course that's your choice. I prefer a diamond that has value that's in alignment with what I paid for it.

 

[emmebee]

You should also ask Mark at ERD/BE (Brilliantly Engaged) to see what he can find that is an ideal cut antique cushion in lower colors.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Sluggo, this might be a different scenario if your girlfriend had not gone and personally picked out that diamond. But she did. I didn't read through all the posts, but this is NOT like you are surprising her with a stone that she has never seen or expressed a desire for. I'd never recommend N color for someone who hasn't seen it, but I love the contrast of a lower color antique cushion with a halo. If she ever changes her mind later, it can be traded in for a different stone, which is a great policy!

My answer to your question is that it is an outstanding diamond, very rare because it's light performance is likely unsurpassed (definitely better cut than most other newly cut antique stones) and worth it, in my opinion. Few people in the world have a diamond like this. As you can see in my avatar picture, I have an AVR which is definitely priced a little more than an antique OEC. But you know what? It is gorgeous and perfect and I LOVE it! My friend m2b actually has a 5 ct J color AVC in a halo and it is one of the most beautiful diamond rings I have ever seen! You just can't even compare a modern cushion. I really would have zero desire for one of those regardless of price.

Your girlfriend picked out that diamond and I assume you can afford it. I hope it might be going in a halo to accentuate the color of the stone. We can help you with the setting if that isn't decided.

Congratulations on a great choice!!!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Sluggo94

Be careful of people in the trade that will say anything to make a sale. Usually when they try to dissect a Gemologist statements it means that they are a sales person not a qualified Gemologist.
Why you would want to take heed is because a Gemologist isn't necessarily in the trade as a sales person. We are trained to grade diamonds.
People that have an axe to grind or in this case a sale to make will say many things to discount the truth. So be careful about buying something from someone who is always trying to find fault with another poster.
Sometimes people that have been sales people for a long time think they know more than they actually do, much of the time.
I trust you are smart enough to be ever vigilant when buying anything that is expensive. You have a great deal of money to spend and you should get value for your dollar.

These type diamonds are considered CAPE diamonds they are not white and they don't have enough color to be considered fancy yellow
or brown (trades people call brown diamonds champagne ) AT GIA they are graded as brown diamonds. So they are in a range that trade people call cape diamonds.

The truth is there is no reason not to look around and be sure before you buy any stone. A GIA Graduate Gemologist is trained to be able to look at a cert and tell you many things about a diamond. People that sell diamonds will say almost anything to make a sale. I have nothing to gain or lose from telling you the truth. On the other hand this person has 30K to gain by swaying your uneducated opinion their way...(do you catch my drift here ?)

Here is one way to test the value of a diamond...
First, make sure you have a return policy in which you will get your money fully returned in cash, not just store credit. And get this In writing, not just a casual "sure we will type response."
Then take the stone to a gemologist any GIA Graduate Gemologist or a diamond buyer and ask them what they would give you for it. And you will find out very fast what the actual value of a diamond is.
It's a lifetime purchase so you want to be sure when make you final decision that you have done well. Your spending a great deal of money, so make sure your getting value for your dollars.

And you don't over pay for a cut, you pay for the quality of the diamond and that is all you pay for. If you tried to sell a diamond no one is going to say to you this is an expensive cut, they are going to say it's an N colored stone which lowers it's value considerably and they are going to look at the cert to find any reason to lower the value since they are considering buying it from you. So get a buyers view so you have both sides of the picture. And Sluggo94 it would not be wise to go to someone that was suggested by the person trying to sell you the stone.
Be careful no matter what your buying for that kind of money. You have some time so I still say look around and see what is out there. NO reason to rush. The market for N colored diamonds is not very big since most people are trying to for D > G colored diamonds. As far as I am concerned your in the drivers seat here not the sales person. They wouldn't necessarily want you to know that N colored diamonds are not very popular.
Hope this helps you.
jamiegems G. G.

Jamie, welcome! I can tell that you are very new to PS! People here are not afraid of lower colors and sometimes actually prefer them greatly over colorless stones. They also have diverse preferences, but a LOT of people here love both old and newly cut antique style stones. These stones, both antique and new, are resold with little problem by members here. People are always watching for them as little discounts are always nice. We have access to some very rare and outstanding diamonds that do command a price premium, yet not necessarily as much as heavily advertised brands such as Hearts on Fire, for example. So I might suggest that you stick around and get to know the forum a little better before coming to conclusions that perhaps are absolutely not true here on PS.

 

[luvsdmb]

http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/3-36ct-antique-cushion-cut-diamond-in-halo-egl-k-vs2/

I am not sure if the diamond could be removed from the setting, you could always check.

 

[emmebee]

You should also ask Mark at ERD/BE (Brilliantly Engaged) to see what he can find that is an ideal cut antique cushion in lower colors.

My suggestion was only made so that you can price compare.. not disagreeing with the diamond you selected at all.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You should also ask Mark at ERD/BE (Brilliantly Engaged) to see what he can find that is an ideal cut antique cushion in lower colors.

My suggestion was only made so that you can price compare.. not disagreeing with the diamond you selected at all.

The only thing is, I do not believe they sell ideal cut antique cushions. They do sell newly cut antique cushions, but they are not comparable to AVC's in terms of cut/light performance and are not graded ideal cut. So they aren't quite apples to apples.

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Diamond seeker, that's really quite your own personal opinion, not fact. We should not be misleading the newbies. BE can & does obtain beautiful stones. The method of interpreting that data is quite subjective.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Diamond seeker, that's really quite your own personal opinion, not fact. We should not be misleading the newbies. BE can & does obtain beautiful stones. The method of interpreting that data is quite subjective.

CCheartnurse, I don't think I commented on the beauty of their stones. I said cut quality was not ideal, as in graded as ideal cut by AGS labs. Personal preference is subjective, but ideal cut is graded by a well regarded lab and is not subjective. It is more expensive to cut ideal cut stones due to not cutting for weight retention. Also, it generally takes a lot more time to cut an ideal cut stone, which is part of the reason the price is more.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Diamond seeker, that's really quite your own personal opinion, not fact. We should not be misleading the newbies. BE can & does obtain beautiful stones. The method of interpreting that data is quite subjective.

Great discussion!
cc- you've hit upon a very important point- the terminology used by AGSL is designed to sell diamonds.
They use the term "Ideal Light Performance"- hence sellers repeating this name.
Now, it's a scientifically designed and measured grade- does that make it "better" than a "regular" non ideal cushion?
Of course not.
The grade will provide a consistent benchmark, so the stones tend to look alike.
However if one does not love that look, who cares?
The terminology is really the issue-
"Ideal optics" is a term designed to sell a given type of stone- Leakage is an AGS term used to insult another type of stone.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sluggo94

Be careful of people in the trade that will say anything to make a sale. Usually when they try to dissect a Gemologist statements it means that they are a sales person not a qualified Gemologist.
Why you would want to take heed is because a Gemologist isn't necessarily in the trade as a sales person. We are trained to grade diamonds.
People that have an axe to grind or in this case a sale to make will say many things to discount the truth. So be careful about buying something from someone who is always trying to find fault with another poster.
Sometimes people that have been sales people for a long time think they know more than they actually do, much of the time.
I trust you are smart enough to be ever vigilant when buying anything that is expensive. You have a great deal of money to spend and you should get value for your dollar.

These type diamonds are considered CAPE diamonds they are not white and they don't have enough color to be considered fancy yellow
or brown (trades people call brown diamonds champagne ) AT GIA they are graded as brown diamonds. So they are in a range that trade people call cape diamonds.

The truth is there is no reason not to look around and be sure before you buy any stone. A GIA Graduate Gemologist is trained to be able to look at a cert and tell you many things about a diamond. People that sell diamonds will say almost anything to make a sale. I have nothing to gain or lose from telling you the truth. On the other hand this person has 30K to gain by swaying your uneducated opinion their way...(do you catch my drift here ?)

Here is one way to test the value of a diamond...
First, make sure you have a return policy in which you will get your money fully returned in cash, not just store credit. And get this In writing, not just a casual "sure we will type response."
Then take the stone to a gemologist any GIA Graduate Gemologist or a diamond buyer and ask them what they would give you for it. And you will find out very fast what the actual value of a diamond is.
It's a lifetime purchase so you want to be sure when make you final decision that you have done well. Your spending a great deal of money, so make sure your getting value for your dollars.

And you don't over pay for a cut, you pay for the quality of the diamond and that is all you pay for. If you tried to sell a diamond no one is going to say to you this is an expensive cut, they are going to say it's an N colored stone which lowers it's value considerably and they are going to look at the cert to find any reason to lower the value since they are considering buying it from you. So get a buyers view so you have both sides of the picture. And Sluggo94 it would not be wise to go to someone that was suggested by the person trying to sell you the stone.
Be careful no matter what your buying for that kind of money. You have some time so I still say look around and see what is out there. NO reason to rush. The market for N colored diamonds is not very big since most people are trying to for D > G colored diamonds. As far as I am concerned your in the drivers seat here not the sales person. They wouldn't necessarily want you to know that N colored diamonds are not very popular.
Hope this helps you.
jamiegems G. G.

Hi Jamiegems,
I agree that many people who are selling diamonds will say anything to make a sale- however I would also never say that because a person has a GG they have all the answers.
My experience is that a GG diploma is truly a first step in understanding diamonds, and diamond grading. A baby step as it were.
Without a lot of trade experience, a GG can not evaluate a diamond in terms of market value. It takes a lot of buying and selling to know what a given diamond is worth on the market.
Part of what one learns is that consumers can never get the same price when they sell as a highly regarded seller. If a guy is standing outside Tiffany ( or on Craig's list) trying to sell the exact same stone they bought a moment earlier inside Tiffany's the price drop would be monumental. That does not make people unwise for shopping at Tiffany's- they are buying a service and merchandise.
Even the grading of the stone- it takes a lot more than a GG diploma to accurately grade diamonds. It used to be one had to grade 24 diamonds to obtain a GG- is that still the case?
Cut is a SUPER important factor in assessing the value of any diamond- yes, dealers and consumers pay for cut.
An N colored diamond is not automatically graded as brown by GIA.
It's true that there's far less buyers for an N as compared to a G. So what?
Most diamond buyers are not nearly as educated as the average PS participant- so no one here is looking for "average"
N colored stones can be quite lovely.