"Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only...

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

pfunk, the problems started with the first post and people had questions about ED (a new vendor) and their attitude toward customers about PS and the tools we use and recommend to assess light performance. Once people had doubts, then it did drift into another territory that seemed possible but apparently was coincidence and not true at all. I messaged the moderator a few hours ago to alert them to the page 3 posts and to ask them to consider deleting them.

In the other case you mentioned, the vendor is very well known and respected here and would never purposely misrepresent anything on this forum. When he checked into the stone further, he came back and corrected his earlier statement, as I recall. In any event, it was not a negative or excessive kind of painting. Two very different scenarios.

I have dealt with Joshua personally, and would agree that he uses casual speech in his dealings with customers. Some here feel it's unprofessional and have stated so, while I tend to be ok with it as it feels "real" or genuine to me. I prefer people to come out and say how it is, but that is just me. He seems the type that states his opinions openly and defends his reasons for why he feels the way he does. Nothing wrong with that, but it will no doubt ruffle some feathers and hopefully he can deal with the backlash. This thread seems to hint that he can. I would agree there was no harm in questioning him about SI diamonds and eye cleanliness, as his experience seems to be out of line with the rest of the trade. But the rest was over the top IMO, and the eagerness of some people to jump on board with the fraudulent business is what I find unacceptable.

Yes, the other vendor is well respected and for good reason. I agree they would never intentionally mislead someone, but intentional or not there was misinformation given and thankfully people here caught it and he eventually got a lot of great info from the vendor. I found your response to that particular thread interesting. The title asked if the diamond was painted or dug out, and you touted the diamond for how beautiful it would be without answering what the poster was asking. It doesn't matter if the painting or digging was excessive or detrimental. They asked if it was painted or dug out and that is what should be answered. The effects of such a cut could then be explained to them.

Seems like this new vendor to PS has really been under the microscope in several threads since they arrived here, and this thread really gives enchanted a bad rap for an unfounded reason. Sure, you can delete the posts that link them to a fraudulent company, but everyone who has read this topic (a lot) have already seen it and may not come back to find out the two should NOT have been linked. I think people need to start making sure of themselves before they post implied, accusatory statements about vendors. On a medium like this, it can have very detrimental effects and certainly all the regulars here know that.

Just to respond to a couple of things, as we agree on many things.

I did not reply to the question of whether that stone it was painted because... A) I did not know, B) to my knowledge WF had not ordered "New Line" stones cut with slight painting for several years (and it was never to a negative degree in the first place as I think John Pollard had written about...some people requested and preferred them), and 3) I thought it might be a photography issue. The stone looked absolutely perfectly cut to me, it had a nice red idealscope image, and it looked like a fine ACA to me (and it is!). That was my opinion of the images. I figured if the thread was bumped up, eventually an a gemologist/jeweler would come along, preferably someone like Bryan or John P. I would imagine that Bryan was also caught off guard because they do not order stones cut like that and probably have not since he came to WF, so I can see why he would assume it wasn't until he further checked on the stone itself. He made the correction and there was an interesting discussion on the thread, I thought.

I tried to help Joshua in an earlier thread and gave him some suggestions about how to survive here, and he has done exceptionally well on the forum! I have no problem of him expressing his opinion to his customers on diamonds, light performance, etc. However, if he intends to advertise on PS, it would probably be a good idea to not say that PS people don't know what they are talking about in regard to diamond recommendations (although that does sometimes happen), that all stones that have certain numbers will look exactly the same, and idealscope images are not needed or important, etc. Of course, that is his perogative if that is the way he feels. I say what I think, too! I want to like him, actually. But, if what he honestly believes is that we are just stupid and know nothing about diamonds (and idealscope is pushed by one of the PS owners for financial reasons, etc) and continues to tell customers that, I think he won't have many of us who care to recommend his stones on the forum, either.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

Just to be clear I never said PS'ers dont know what they are talking about - I was talking about misinformation on the web....

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

Just to be clear I never said PS'ers dont know what they are talking about - I was talking about misinformation on the web....

Okay, that would be a better way to say it!

 

[TrakHack]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

I'm late to this party, but had a similar experience in a chat with Enchanted Diamonds last week.

I was researching step cuts and have a specific L/W ratio that I am interested in, in addition to table and depth parameters. When I saw that ED has "cut scores" for fancies, I was intrigued, knowing that that such shapes do not have established ideal cut scores.

My search parameters usually returned stones with scores between 85 and 100, but I was curious to know what variables are included in the calculation and how they were weighted. Since my parameters included L/W ratios of 1.1 - 1.2, which is not considered ideal for either Asscher or Emerald cuts, I didn't know if this may be lowering the scores.

I initiated a chat, and while I didn't take screen shots or get the option to have a transcript emailed to me, the conversation went like this:
Me - could you tell me what variables are included and how they are weighted in the cut score for step cuts?
Diamond Expert - we cannot tell you our secrets, but anything over 90 will be a great diamond
Me - is L/W ratio one of the variables included in the calculation? The ratio I prefer is not considered ideal, and I don't know if this would be lowering the score.
Diamond Expert - L/W is personal preference, but we determine the ideal measurements for each L/W ratio
Me - one last question, do you have ASET images?
Diamond Export - no, but if you stick with stones with a score over 90 you will be sure to get a great stone.

There was a bit more back and forth than that, but that's an accurate summary of the exchange.

If I had had a bit more free time I would have done a regression analysis to determine the formula, but it wasn't that difficult to change search parameters to see which variables were influencing the "score". I requested photos of a few stones, some with scores of less than 90, and received an email with links to photos of other stones, not those I had requested, with a note saying "We only recommend 90+ for the cut score, what do you think of these...." Well, if I knew how that cut score was calculated it might help.

I had thought about starting a thread here about vendor transparency in cut scores, but since it is well-documented in these forums that buying fancies by the numbers doesn't work, I didn't think it worthwhile.

Anyway, since I know you cannot buy step cuts off the numbers or images, I have spent a great deal of time watching GOG's videos on step cuts looking at the photos of the JA inventory. ED does have a ring design I particularly like, but I feel like trying to find the right stone from them and getting my questions answered will be an uphill battle.

If ED would care to share the cut score formulae used for non-round cuts, I would be happy to keep them in the running for my purchase.

Hi!

**edited by moderator, please re read our policies**

My formula is my secret sauce - I prefer to keep it that way. Does Coca Cola release it formula? Does In-n-Out tell you how they make their burgers so darn tasty?

They do not **edited by moderator, please re read our policies**

There are people in the B2B side who use our technology (paid use) to algorithmically trade diamonds and they would be very upset if I open sourced it.

Im almost certain it was me you chatted with, and if my brain was still working (I talk to over 200 people some days) I would have/should have pointed you to:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-round
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-princess
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-emerald-radiant
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-marquis-pear-oval-heart

I think David Atlas does a great job here - really great way to search without our cut score.

I tried to find our conversation by searching for what you say you said and we said, and could not find anything... And we do have ASETs, but maybe not for a particular diamond? Also its very likely the supplier's you requested us to request photos from didnt have the proper equipment to handle your request, and that we tried our best to give you other options? Im very curious as Im unable to find anything matching the above quotes, and my search engine is fierce.

Also Ill add our algorithm is fine tuned with Computer Vision (based on ASET's and IdealScopes) and Machine learning, AND HAS OUR PERSONAL TASTE AND TOLERANCES BUILT IN.

**edited by moderator, please re read our policies**

**edited by moderator, please re read our policies**

I hope this clears up any misconceptions/misinformation about ASETs + Enchanted Diamonds. Please dont ever hesitate to reach out to me personally for assistance.

Thanks for the response, Josh. I did reference Dave's charts (*many* thanks, Dave!), and using those parameters the stones I found on your site consistently had high scores, although not all in the 90+ range. This is why I was wondering if my own unconventional L/W ratio preference might have been causing the cut score to be less than 90.

Searching on "variable" or "variables", "weighted" or "weighting", "L/W ratio" or "length/width ratio", and "ASET" should find the chat we had.

I do think for most buyers your cut score approach is helpful and takes much of the leg work out of researching "ideal" parameters for different shapes.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

Thanks for reaching back out!

We support a wide and interesting range of ratio preferences, but its based on our taste as well as degradation of light performance from research we've conducted.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

pfunk, the problems started with the first post and people had questions about ED (a new vendor) and their attitude toward customers about PS and the tools we use and recommend to assess light performance. Once people had doubts, then it did drift into another territory that seemed possible but apparently was coincidence and not true at all. I messaged the moderator a few hours ago to alert them to the page 3 posts and to ask them to consider deleting them.

In the other case you mentioned, the vendor is very well known and respected here and would never purposely misrepresent anything on this forum. When he checked into the stone further, he came back and corrected his earlier statement, as I recall. In any event, it was not a negative or excessive kind of painting. Two very different scenarios.

I have dealt with Joshua personally, and would agree that he uses casual speech in his dealings with customers. Some here feel it's unprofessional and have stated so, while I tend to be ok with it as it feels "real" or genuine to me. I prefer people to come out and say how it is, but that is just me. He seems the type that states his opinions openly and defends his reasons for why he feels the way he does. Nothing wrong with that, but it will no doubt ruffle some feathers and hopefully he can deal with the backlash. This thread seems to hint that he can. I would agree there was no harm in questioning him about SI diamonds and eye cleanliness, as his experience seems to be out of line with the rest of the trade. But the rest was over the top IMO, and the eagerness of some people to jump on board with the fraudulent business is what I find unacceptable.

Yes, the other vendor is well respected and for good reason. I agree they would never intentionally mislead someone, but intentional or not there was misinformation given and thankfully people here caught it and he eventually got a lot of great info from the vendor. I found your response to that particular thread interesting. The title asked if the diamond was painted or dug out, and you touted the diamond for how beautiful it would be without answering what the poster was asking. It doesn't matter if the painting or digging was excessive or detrimental. They asked if it was painted or dug out and that is what should be answered. The effects of such a cut could then be explained to them.

Seems like this new vendor to PS has really been under the microscope in several threads since they arrived here, and this thread really gives enchanted a bad rap for an unfounded reason. Sure, you can delete the posts that link them to a fraudulent company, but everyone who has read this topic (a lot) have already seen it and may not come back to find out the two should NOT have been linked. I think people need to start making sure of themselves before they post implied, accusatory statements about vendors. On a medium like this, it can have very detrimental effects and certainly all the regulars here know that.

pfunk,
I respect you for standing up for what you see as an injustice. I do regret that Joshua was unfairly associated with a scam thread, and especially any role I played in furthering that part of the discussion. Having said that, I do believe a new vendor is normally given extra scrutiny, especially at first before a body of work established. The community and especially the prosumers here have a very protective instinct. And their radar goes up when they hear things they don't like regarding how consumers are being treated, or when they hear dubious information coming from a vendor. This goes with the territory of being a new vendor. And putting vendors under the microscope (loupe?) is not necessarily a bad thing. Prosumers naturally err on the side of the consumer, not on the side of the vendor.

I think it is a very good strategy for new vendors to spend some time reading pricescope and getting to know the community before doing alot of posting. It's not that they need to conform, it's just that they need to be sensitive. Joshua admitted that he is "a work in progress" and that is a good realization on his part. Humility is a virtue.

I was with Whiteflash for a couple of years, lurking on pricescope and learning, before becoming a regular poster. I don't think a new vendor has to be on that slow of a track but I believe they need to invest time to study the forum. For instance, there is a very available article in the Pricescope knowledge base on the topic of "eye-clean" where many different vendors state their criteria for this very important aspect of communication with remote diamond buyers. If Joshua had read this article his postings on the forum may have been different and he may not have raised so many eyebrows. Not sure, but the point is that there is alot to learn in terms of the way people share ideas and information on this site.

I know that the community here will keep an open mind and cut a new vendor some slack in the early going. A vendor's success will ultimately be determined by their particular value proposition, the information they provide, how well they follow through for customers on a day to day basis, and the service they provide after the sale. And it is not easy to do all this well.

We all make mistakes (as you pointed out re the painting thread). No amount of emphasis on perfection, ISO 9000 certification, or other construct will prevent all errors. We are all human and need the chance to redeem ourselves from time to time.

I think the community and the prosumers here want to embrace new vendors (diamondseeker is clearly one of them). It means more options and a wider range of goods to choose from. But listing diamonds for sale is the easy part. Communicating with customers, building the jewelry, meeting expectations, hitting delivery times, proper follow up, etc is really where the rubber meets the road.

 

[pfunk]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

pfunk, the problems started with the first post and people had questions about ED (a new vendor) and their attitude toward customers about PS and the tools we use and recommend to assess light performance. Once people had doubts, then it did drift into another territory that seemed possible but apparently was coincidence and not true at all. I messaged the moderator a few hours ago to alert them to the page 3 posts and to ask them to consider deleting them.

In the other case you mentioned, the vendor is very well known and respected here and would never purposely misrepresent anything on this forum. When he checked into the stone further, he came back and corrected his earlier statement, as I recall. In any event, it was not a negative or excessive kind of painting. Two very different scenarios.

I have dealt with Joshua personally, and would agree that he uses casual speech in his dealings with customers. Some here feel it's unprofessional and have stated so, while I tend to be ok with it as it feels "real" or genuine to me. I prefer people to come out and say how it is, but that is just me. He seems the type that states his opinions openly and defends his reasons for why he feels the way he does. Nothing wrong with that, but it will no doubt ruffle some feathers and hopefully he can deal with the backlash. This thread seems to hint that he can. I would agree there was no harm in questioning him about SI diamonds and eye cleanliness, as his experience seems to be out of line with the rest of the trade. But the rest was over the top IMO, and the eagerness of some people to jump on board with the fraudulent business is what I find unacceptable.

Yes, the other vendor is well respected and for good reason. I agree they would never intentionally mislead someone, but intentional or not there was misinformation given and thankfully people here caught it and he eventually got a lot of great info from the vendor. I found your response to that particular thread interesting. The title asked if the diamond was painted or dug out, and you touted the diamond for how beautiful it would be without answering what the poster was asking. It doesn't matter if the painting or digging was excessive or detrimental. They asked if it was painted or dug out and that is what should be answered. The effects of such a cut could then be explained to them.

Seems like this new vendor to PS has really been under the microscope in several threads since they arrived here, and this thread really gives enchanted a bad rap for an unfounded reason. Sure, you can delete the posts that link them to a fraudulent company, but everyone who has read this topic (a lot) have already seen it and may not come back to find out the two should NOT have been linked. I think people need to start making sure of themselves before they post implied, accusatory statements about vendors. On a medium like this, it can have very detrimental effects and certainly all the regulars here know that.

pfunk,
I respect you for standing up for what you see as an injustice. I do regret that Joshua was unfairly associated with a scam thread, and especially any role I played in furthering that part of the discussion. Having said that, I do believe a new vendor is normally given extra scrutiny, especially at first before a body of work established. The community and especially the prosumers here have a very protective instinct. And their radar goes up when they hear things they don't like regarding how consumers are being treated, or when they hear dubious information coming from a vendor. This goes with the territory of being a new vendor. And putting vendors under the microscope (loupe?) is not necessarily a bad thing. Prosumers naturally err on the side of the consumer, not on the side of the vendor.

I think it is a very good strategy for new vendors to spend some time reading pricescope and getting to know the community before doing alot of posting. It's not that they need to conform, it's just that they need to be sensitive. Joshua admitted that he is "a work in progress" and that is a good realization on his part. Humility is a virtue.

I was with Whiteflash for a couple of years, lurking on pricescope and learning, before becoming a regular poster. I don't think a new vendor has to be on that slow of a track but I believe they need to invest time to study the forum. For instance, there is a very available article in the Pricescope knowledge base on the topic of "eye-clean" where many different vendors state their criteria for this very important aspect of communication with remote diamond buyers. If Joshua had read this article his postings on the forum may have been different and he may not have raised so many eyebrows. Not sure, but the point is that there is alot to learn in terms of the way people share ideas and information on this site.

I know that the community here will keep an open mind and cut a new vendor some slack in the early going. A vendor's success will ultimately be determined by their particular value proposition, the information they provide, how well they follow through for customers on a day to day basis, and the service they provide after the sale. And it is not easy to do all this well.

We all make mistakes (as you pointed out re the painting thread). No amount of emphasis on perfection, ISO 9000 certification, or other construct will prevent all errors. We are all human and need the chance to redeem ourselves from time to time.

I think the community and the prosumers here want to embrace new vendors (diamondseeker is clearly one of them). It means more options and a wider range of goods to choose from. But listing diamonds for sale is the easy part. Communicating with customers, building the jewelry, meeting expectations, hitting delivery times, proper follow up, etc is really where the rubber meets the road.

Absolutely agree with you TL. Well said.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

This has been a very interesting discussion.
It has raised certain issues which, from my perspective, are not resolved. I suspect that's why others have questioned Joshua.
For example: cut grading- this is a forum where the most minute details of cut take center stage. A "Secret Sauce Cut grade" really goes against the grain of how cut is discussed here.
Joshua, you're claiming that dealers are using your system to buy blind, and paying you for that privelidge.
Based on my knowledge of the NY wholesale B2B diamond market, such a claim will raise questions.
Where is this service advertised?
How much is it?
None of the dealers I know would ever consider using such a system- because to be a dealer, and actually buy diamonds, one needs to understand cut. Of course there's plenty of NY dealers I don't know, but the concept sounds unworkable based on the realities of the B2B diamond business.

The parts about clarity indicate a lack of familiarity with diamond grading.
That's all fine- one does not need to be an expert on grading or cut to post- however, acting as though one is expert, when they are not really experienced on the fine points is an issue.

ETA- Joshua I hope you do give a call and stop up so we can meet. You're obviously passionate and we may even be related- my grandma spoke La Dino

 

[teobdl]

Re: "Diamond expert" told me to stick to measurements only..

It sounds like the holy grail of any business: proprietary IP (or at least very secret); zero inventory but ability to satisfy each customer need; smooth, reliable, and trustworthy supply chain; and off the charts customer satisfaction. I hope that you have great success and are able to ride out your advantages for both your own and your customers' benefit.

I am not totally sure of the eye clean SI1 claim though: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R129-HUSWQ9

Would you discourage a customer from buying a diamond such as this from your inventory? As you say, it is a big cost just to bring that diamond in and inspect it. Or would you ask the supplier to verify that it is eye clean before they ship it?