Advice on this stone.. I think I've found it...

[CassiusNZ]

I just want to thank everyone for there assistance in my diamond buying journey and I didnt mean to cause a fuss. Bottom line is the extra $4-5k that I saved on this diamond will go towards our house we just bought and towards the wedding in 1-2years time.. and it was.. in the end hard for me to get to the 19-20k range in terms of price.

Also in terms of Buyback Joshua has matched the CBI Cash Buyback of 80%... which is very competitive of him and in good will. It shows me he believes in his product.. and although there is I'd say less than 1% chance that we'd ever have to use it (it'd have to be a castatrophic health problem ect ect or family health problem) it is nice to know its there.

And.. should the diamond not perform up to the standards I am expecting I am free to return and once again go down the CBI/WF ACA route. So to me its Win/Win.

I've learnt SO much over the past 2months and in the end I couldnt justify the additional $$ for the smaller lower color/clarity offerings in the super ideals.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Cass, you have nothing to explain. You chose a very nice diamond! There is satisfaction for some people in getting "the best" of something. But most of us can't have the absolute best of everything, so we have to balance things out! Your stone is better than most you'll ever come across, and I said that earlier. So relax and wait and see the stone in person. I am sure it will be gorgeous!

 

[kb1gra]

This is my own personal opinion, but I buy pieces because I like them, not for their potential resale value. No luxury item is an investment, generally.

I think this is probably a nice diamond, but I can appreciate the point made above. However, it's not about the money. If you like what you're looking at, great. I have seen a few CZs that, in their clean showroom state, immediately appealed to me more than my diamond. But my diamond is mine, so it's still better. All relative.

**edited by moderator for inappropriate comments*

Joshua,

I wasn't criticizing you, or the poster. I was simply commenting on the treatment of an engagement ring as some sort of investment vehicle when the sentimental value alone would generally preclude it from being such.

As an aside, I do agree with diamondseeker...your most recent posts in this thread are putting me off potentially purchasing from you. I appreciate integrity in my vendors and I have nothing against you, but your defensiveness here and accusations against others have piqued my radar. Nobody was trying to talk this customer out of the stone. Many were confused because the OP had multiple threads...I don't want to call it bragging, but openly stating that he only buys the best for himself and he wanted the best. For us, here on pricescope, that means a superideal. To then post that the final winner was NOT a superideal, and discussing infinitely the price savings, was confusing to those who had read the previous 5+ threads. That's all.

As a further aside, as a customer I also find the cut grading on your site a bit confusing. It should really be clearer that the only cuts that are actually graded as ideal, are rounds.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

kb1gra,

Please quantify for me what superideal means?

Also GIA only rates up to Excellent, anything that says Cut Score and Ideal is rated by us.

Also I was only explaining my thesis on what modern diamond consumers should expect and demand from the modern diamond dealer.

 

[JulieN]

cflutist is a gemologist who doesn't work as a gemologist.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

cflutist is a gemologist who doesn't work as a gemologist.

Ah I see, Ive never heard of that before so I guess it threw me off you learn something new everyday!

Had my New York based "skeptical radar" going off like crazy...

 

[cflutist]

cflutist is a gemologist who doesn't work as a gemologist.

That is exactly true. I earned a Gemologist Diploma from the GIA but did not work in the industry.
Instead I enjoyed a 32-year career in Software Engineering and retired as a VP from a Fortune 50 company.
I have proof of both of these and can scan my last business card and send to Ella/Andrey if needed. I am a consumer who just loves jewelry like others on PS but decided to take it a step further to become educated way before PS existed.

What I don't appreciate is a vendor calling me a liar when I posted my observations of my CBI diamond that I purchased from another PS vendor. That sir Joshua is really uncalled for.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="kb1gra|


As a further aside, as a customer I also find the cut grading on your site a bit confusing. It should really be clearer that the only cuts that are actually graded as ideal, are rounds.[/quote]


Yup!... Imagine if every vendor having their own grading system...

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

cflutist is a gemologist who doesn't work as a gemologist.

That is exactly true. I earned a Gemologist Diploma from the GIA but did not work in the industry.
Instead I enjoyed a 32-year career in Software Engineering and retired as a VP from a Fortune 50 company.
I have proof of both of these and can scan my last business card and send to Ella/Andrey if needed. I am a consumer who just loves jewelry like others on PS but decided to take it a step further to become educated way before PS existed.

What I don't appreciate is a vendor calling me a liar when I posted my observations of my CBI diamond that I purchased from another PS vendor. That sir Joshua is really uncalled for.

Thats awesome congratulations on your lengthy career in software engineering... And I apologize for being such a skeptic, you have yourself listed as a gemologist (and dont mention that you arent a practicing gemologist), so I assumed you're in the trade. I think that would be a great idea, for all prosumers to send a verification of their identity as someone who isnt in the trade, though I suppose even that can be faked...

I too am a software engineer, though I dont consider myself a software engineer more than a diamond dealer and jeweler... I guess we all get to pick what we call ourselves... Also you were stating your observations as facts which I found to be irregular behavior for a gemologist.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

[quote="kb1gra|


As a further aside, as a customer I also find the cut grading on your site a bit confusing. It should really be clearer that the only cuts that are actually graded as ideal, are rounds.

Yup!... Imagine if every vendor having their own grading system... [/quote]

Many vendors do have their own grading system though... Actually each and everyone that Ive come across on PS has their own.

 

[CassiusNZ]

Just as an FYI to everyone I switched my stone to this one -

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Round/GIA-Certified-1,5-Carat-G-Color-VS1-Clarity-Diamond-GLS5GK

Reasons -

Lower Depth - 61.2% vs 62%
No Fluro vs Faint
Video of actual diamond showing no visible inclusions on Table
HCA still of 1.3

An additional $500 but seeing the diamond in person gives me some peace of mind. In terms of proportions everything seems in line with ideals from people who have posted on PS as well as Niceice and other forums.

Please let me know..

 

[sweet_jane]

@cass - congratulations on your purchase! You have spent a lot of time and energy searching for the "perfect" diamond to gift your future bride...she is a lucky to girl to have someone so thoughtful

I am a newbie to the site and apologize in advance for any ignorance on my part, but it seems reasonable to say that everyone on this site has a different idea of what constitutes the perfect stone, prioritize all the C's (carat, cut, color, clarity, cost, and certification) in differing order, not to mention preferences to branded products or non-branded. What I find most confusing in this thread- from a consumer's perspective - is the comparison of GIA to AGS when they are two different entities with two different grading criteria. Is there a way to describe the light performance of a GIA diamond without referencing AGS? When GIA certs are described using AGS grading terms this is how my mind follows the discussion: some GIA xxx could be graded AGSO, all AGS0 would would be graded GIA xxx, if the diamond were worthy of an AGS0 it most likely would have been sent to AGS, but the diamond was sent to GIA and referencing AGS grading is purely speculation. If my logic is correct, would it be considered misleading for a seller to reference AGS grading on GIA certed diamond to a consumer?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

diamondseeker,

I appreciate you considering us - but I just dont see how a gemologist (cflutist) isnt a member of the trade and I was not referring to Brian of B2C Jewels, who from my understanding, has a misunderstanding of how the AGS Parameters are found by my polisher, and is not just violating forum rules, but also misleading the OP.

Also Ill quote a PS user who visited us earlier today:

"USA (Maple Grove, MN) #4221: I see you posts over on PS and I like your no BS this is how it is approach...so i want to ask you to see if you can find the kind of diamond I want for cheaper than what I paid. We talked the other day about a diamond I had purchased from [OTHER PS VENDORS NAME REDACTED] that you might be able to find something similar for cheaper..."

I just cant stand people being misled, call it defensiveness, but the only person Im defending is the consumer.

Also as a born and bread New Yorker, I apologize if my "attitude" comes of brash... In the big city we just have a low tolerance for misinformation.

Thank you! I am from the South, so that probably explains our difference in communication style. I am willing to start over if you are.

I see that the misunderstanding about cflutist has been cleared up. You'd be surprised but several members here over the years have taken GIA courses because they are very serious about their hobby! Some have crossed over into working in the industry, too.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

diamondseeker,

Brian of B2C Jewels, who from my understanding, has a misunderstanding of how the AGS Parameters are found by my polisher, and is not just violating forum rules, but also misleading the OP.

Joshua,

Just to be clear. Here is what you termed my 'misunderstanding of how AGS Parameters' are found by your polisher:

One note to your polishers. This isn’t an “AGS Cut Grade.” That software calculates performance parameters but the user manually enters his or her polish & symmetry estimates. In this case 0-0 was probably punched in (we do it too since the goal is to check light-performance). No big deal, but technically those finish evaluations remain subjective and AGS uses different terms and standards. So while the scan shows 0 light performance the polishers should not promote it as an “AGS Cut Grade” unless it went to AGSL.

I did not speak of 'parameters' except in reference to the software. The software takes the user's polish and symmetry estimates upon entry and estimates the AGS rating. This cannot, technically, be called an AGS Cut Grade. The ONLY diamonds that have an AGS Cut Grade are, in fact, diamonds which have been evaluated by AGSL. Full Stop. At B2C we also enter parameters to determine light performance but to call them an "AGS Cut Grade" is - frankly - inaccurate.

 

[JulieN]

Many vendors do have their own grading system though... Actually each and everyone that Ive come across on PS has their own.

Every other vendor has a qualitative grading system. Yours is the only system that is quantitative. It is very confusing.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

@cass - congratulations on your purchase! You have spent a lot of time and energy searching for the "perfect" diamond to gift your future bride...she is a lucky to girl to have someone so thoughtful

I am a newbie to the site and apologize in advance for any ignorance on my part, but it seems reasonable to say that everyone on this site has a different idea of what constitutes the perfect stone, prioritize all the C's (carat, cut, color, clarity, cost, and certification) in differing order, not to mention preferences to branded products or non-branded. What I find most confusing in this thread- from a consumer's perspective - is the comparison of GIA to AGS when they are two different entities with two different grading criteria. Is there a way to describe the light performance of a GIA diamond without referencing AGS? When GIA certs are described using AGS grading terms this is how my mind follows the discussion: some GIA xxx could be graded AGSO, all AGS0 would would be graded GIA xxx, if the diamond were worthy of an AGS0 it most likely would have been sent to AGS, but the diamond was sent to GIA and referencing AGS grading is purely speculation. If my logic is correct, would it be considered misleading for a seller to reference AGS grading on GIA certed diamond to a consumer?

No, the bolded is not true. The vast majority of diamonds are graded by GIA. While some vendors have stones cut for their inventory and use AGS, other vendors such as GOG often have GIA superideals listed on their sites as well as having some cut for them. Using GOG again and even in this instance with the first ED stone, you can use AGS software to evaluate if the stone would fall into AGS 0 parameters. Not to mention, reflector images such as idealscope help confirm the cut. In other words, there are superideal and ideal cut stones graded by both labs. You just have to have the information to assess it.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Sweet Jane!

Best of luck on your diamond search, but Id like to clarify that when polishers have access to the right Sarine Equipment they too can get a reading of AGS Cut Parameter scoring. As the OP will tell you, I never stated that the diamond came AGS certified or graded but rather the polisher has the software that AGS uses to get to their Cut Grade so they are able to cut diamonds to AGS 000 specs... This is using the same hardware AGS would use when grading their diamond cut (not for color and clarity)...

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Many vendors do have their own grading system though... Actually each and everyone that Ive come across on PS has their own.

Every other vendor has a qualitative grading system. Yours is the only system that is quantitative. It is very confusing.

Yes its very high tech and the concept is new but we've researched it in depth and are very confident in saying its highly accurate.

Our cut score is algorithmic just FYI.

100% of our clients have been satisfied with the results of the cut score tech we have.

Also, our company is engineering driven. Our CTO was the lead engineer on a very widely used 3D surgical simulator which doctors use to practice robotic surgery on (in 3D)... Half of our team of 14 people are engineers.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Just as an FYI to everyone I switched my stone to this one -

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Round/GIA-Certified-1,5-Carat-G-Color-VS1-Clarity-Diamond-GLS5GK

Reasons -

Lower Depth - 61.2% vs 62%
No Fluro vs Faint
Video of actual diamond showing no visible inclusions on Table
HCA still of 1.3

An additional $500 but seeing the diamond in person gives me some peace of mind. In terms of proportions everything seems in line with ideals from people who have posted on PS as well as Niceice and other forums.

Please let me know..

Very beautiful stone and one I would definitely feel comfortable choosing for myself! The images Joshua posted are great!

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

diamondseeker,

Brian of B2C Jewels, who from my understanding, has a misunderstanding of how the AGS Parameters are found by my polisher, and is not just violating forum rules, but also misleading the OP.

Joshua,

Just to be clear. Here is what you termed my 'misunderstanding of how AGS Parameters' are found by your polisher:

One note to your polishers. This isn’t an “AGS Cut Grade.” That software calculates performance parameters but the user manually enters his or her polish & symmetry estimates. In this case 0-0 was probably punched in (we do it too since the goal is to check light-performance). No big deal, but technically those finish evaluations remain subjective and AGS uses different terms and standards. So while the scan shows 0 light performance the polishers should not promote it as an “AGS Cut Grade” unless it went to AGSL.

I did not speak of 'parameters' except in reference to the software. The software takes the user's polish and symmetry estimates upon entry and estimates the AGS rating. This cannot, technically, be called an AGS Cut Grade. The ONLY diamonds that have an AGS Cut Grade are, in fact, diamonds which have been evaluated by AGSL. Full Stop. At B2C we also enter parameters to determine light performance but to call them an "AGS Cut Grade" is - frankly - inaccurate.

They are using the same Sarine hardware AGS uses to measure... So they arent manually entering anything... They are measuring.

So yes if B2C enters the parameters in, I would advise they purchase the right equipment to give accurate AGS metrics... So consumers can benefit from accurate information instead of these supposed AGS numbers you give out (if Im understanding your practice correctly)

I never said the diamond was AGS Graded or Certified. Ask the OP.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

diamondseeker,

I appreciate you considering us - but I just dont see how a gemologist (cflutist) isnt a member of the trade and I was not referring to Brian of B2C Jewels, who from my understanding, has a misunderstanding of how the AGS Parameters are found by my polisher, and is not just violating forum rules, but also misleading the OP.

Also Ill quote a PS user who visited us earlier today:

"USA (Maple Grove, MN) #4221: I see you posts over on PS and I like your no BS this is how it is approach...so i want to ask you to see if you can find the kind of diamond I want for cheaper than what I paid. We talked the other day about a diamond I had purchased from [OTHER PS VENDORS NAME REDACTED] that you might be able to find something similar for cheaper..."

I just cant stand people being misled, call it defensiveness, but the only person Im defending is the consumer.

Also as a born and bread New Yorker, I apologize if my "attitude" comes of brash... In the big city we just have a low tolerance for misinformation.

Thank you! I am from the South, so that probably explains our difference in communication style. I am willing to start over if you are.

I see that the misunderstanding about cflutist has been cleared up. You'd be surprised but several members here over the years have taken GIA courses because they are very serious about their hobby! Some have crossed over into working in the industry, too.

My first time in the south (Tennessee) I went to a camping based music festival... And a random gentleman (now my friend) saw me struggling with all of my gear on a 100 degree day... Offered me assistance and helped me move hundreds of pounds worth of gear... I was so confused... I hadnt ever been on the receiving end of that much kindness from a stranger... He helped me setup my camp and the whole nine yards... The whole time I thought the guy was trying to pull a fast one on me... My camp site was "next to his" and the whole time I thought he was just trying to pull one over on me so I was standing guard by all my stuff lol...

Low and behold his whole family and all his friends show up (and then I realize he was just a nice Southern gentleman and I was a paranoid New Yorker)...

They ended up being the nicest sweetest people on earth and now very good friends of mine - and broke all sorts of stereotypes and misunderstandings I had of the South!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh, that is a great story! I am glad you were shown true southern hospitality!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have followed this thread with interest.
Joshua it would be interesting to know the algorithms of your system.
or at least the underlying basis.
I have worked in this space for a long time and claim that my system is a predictor of potential only. And my associates (whose scanners the supplier of the first stone use) after more than a decade of hard work in the field would love to be able to make this claim you make. One day we hope to.
The fact you do not seem to fully understand the AGS grading process is a bit of a worry though.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Garry, I need to ask you a diamond-related question but don't want to derail this thread. Suggestion of how or where to do that, please?

 

[CassiusNZ]

Well to me anyway those ASETS and Idealoscope images look great.. look forward to seeing it!

 

[CassiusNZ]

Oh and just an FYI to everyone Joshua never said it was AGS Graded or Certified.. just that it had similar properties

 

[JulieN]

Good luck, cassius

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

Josh,

This was what I responded to:

Well its bought.. is also AGS0 Ideal which will come with the Diamond... looking forward to getting it!

That is why I posted the first comments RE AGS0.

And you stated:

JoshuaNiamehr » 25 Jan 2015 00:23
AGS Cut Grade was provided by the polisher to us.

Now you state:

I never said the diamond was AGS Graded or Certified. Ask the OP.

But you did state "AGS Cut Grade." And you have continued to assert things in-error.

I feel you may not know the components of AGS grading (not sure if you're a gemologist?).

I truly wish to help:

1. Light performance: Ray tracing returns values. This can be repeatable when measured by software like Sarine. Thus this component can be predicted by your software.

2. Polish: This is a subjective human evaluation. It's not done by Sarine and even if it was done it might not match the evaluation at AGS. It's not repeatable. It's subjective. Therefore only AGS can provide it under the umbrella of "AGS Cut Grade."

3. Symmetry: Again, supposedly a human measurement (although tech like Sarine, OGI and Helium have become reliable and are in-use at some labs). Nevertheless, like polish, only the lab can provide it under the umbrella of "AGS Cut Grade."

So one can say "this diamond has AGS0 light performance." But one cannot say it has an "AGS Cut Grade" of 0 or AGS Ideal since 2 of the 3 components cannot be presumed outside the lab.

Does that clarify?
'
In a broader context we all have to understand that the value in having an AGS graded diamond is that it is, truly and exclusively, graded at AGSL. AGS understands that people want to be reassured that the parameters determined by the Sarine scan (and in-person evaluation) would likely result in an AGS cut-grade of 0, but they would make themselves irrelevant if there was not the premium still placed on an actual AGS grading report. This is why B2C, and I assume why ED (among others) value the software. But diamonds without evaluation by AGSL should never claim an AGS Cut Grade.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Gary, my understanding is that the polisher uses the DiaMension HD: http://sarine.com/products/diamension-hd/ to measure. After which the diamonds measurements are used to theorize based on predictable light performance using a cut grade: http://sarine.com/products/ags-cut-grading/....... Also it is my understanding the Cut Grade is derived with a combination of hardware and software analysis, including diamonds graded by AGSL.

So I dont see any manual entry of data or assumptions by the polisher as Brian of B2C Jewels is stating.

Did you develop the DiaMension hardware?

I forget which device they are using, it could be the higher end version: http://sarine.com/products/diamension-axiom/#category6

Our cut score is a theoretical algorithm that has honed accuracy based on thousands of real ASETs and IdealScopes images. So we started with a theory and then tested it and improved its accuracy with Machine Learning + Computer Vision. While I would love to divulge how to develop an algorithm like ours, I dont think my investors and wholesalers/dealers (people use our cut score in the trade to make buying decisions) would be very happy with that...

But your reputation precedes you and it would be an honor to collaborate somewhere down the line.

Much of our work is only possible because of the groundbreaking research of giants such as yourself have done!!

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

So I dont see any manual entry of data or assumptions by the polisher as Brian of B2C Jewels is stating.

Hello again,

The usual AGS PGS interface takes any 3D scan (Sarin, Helium, OGI) to assess light performance. But requires the user to enter values for polish and symmetry. It was developed for AGS CGA and ICGA appraisers.

Sarine might very well work in some assessment of symmetry based on that local scan, but it can still be over-ridden at the lab, as can polish (per my last post).

AGSL maintains very strict standards (stricter that GIA) for evaluation of symmetry and polish which may, or may not, agree with your in-house evaluations. This is why the 'AGS Cut Grade 0' should only be applied to diamonds that have accompanying documents from AGS.