Protection Trained Dog or Handgun?

[Calliecake]

My husband also believes in having a gun. Like Mom Happy, the gun is stored properly and my husband is well trained in using it. He goes to the gun range often. We do not have children.

I have been told by law enforcement that if someone is determined to do you harm or steal from you, they will find a way to make it happen. No matter what you do, they will find a way if they are determined to do so.

All guns should be locked in a safe with the bullets stored elsewhere for safety sake. If someone breaks into your home do you really feel it would be easy to get both the gun, the bullets and load them in the gun quickly? You also better be trained well in using the gun and visit the gun range frequently. The gun is not going to do you much good if you can't hit your target.

My vote would be for a security system and a dog with a very loud bark as Wink suggested. I have a small dog with a loud bark that will not shut up if someone comes to the door. She has also been known to fly out of bed in the middle of the night, barking her little head off if she hears a noise outside. I think guns give people a false sense of security unless you plan to have the gun on your body 24 hours a day. My husband feels differently.

You noted a house in the neighborhood was broken into. The criminals probably knew the owners were not at home. Criminals take precautions as well.

Years ago someone broke into my home when I was asleep with the intent to do bodily harm. I did not wake up until he was standing over me. A gun would not of helped unless it was loaded and under my pillow. Even then I think it would have probably been used on me.

I would have no problem shooting someone who broke into my home. And heaven help anyone who broke into my house and hurt my dog.

 

[Autumnovember]

I don't know if this helps but if you do go the dog route, there are facilities that do train police dogs and FBI dogs. I boarded my dog for obedience training at one of these facilities and got good results. A couple people did bring up good points with the dog being around children. My dog is fine and I have not had any issues around kids or anyone for that matter but it is an animal and no matter how well trained the dog is, you never know. It's a risk just like a gun. I saw someone mentioned a 5k cost, that's right on point. However, some places offer a lifetime of free training sessions after completion. I spent countless hours with mine at his training facility. The entire family will have to participate, no question there. Every person in the house will need to be on the same page.

 

[VapidLapid]

Bullet Bras!!

 

[AGBF]

Pepper Spray, Bear Strength is also good, but it really ruins a room if you have to use it inside. It will make the user just as incapacitated as the usee in a closed space. Nasty, nasty stuff!

Still, better than actually dying. It only makes you wish you were dead for a while...

Wink

Funny you should mention that. This is exactly what I bought! I had to buy it by mail although it is legal in my state. Two canisters of it (one for me and one for my daughter). To use while walking our Newfoundland, Griffin. It never occurred to me it could be used in the house. Griffin looks like a bear and deters people, except all the schoolchildren who know him by name and run up to him when we walk him! But stupid dogs sometimes want to attack him. Our vet has reassured my daughter that if push came to shove he would defend himself and also that he would be very hard to kill because dogs have to latch on to something and he is protected by fur and huge amounts of skin everywhere (including at the throat). But my daughter worries that some tiny dog might kill him because he is so gentle!

Deb/AGBF

 

[House Cat]

I see some very good points about the dangers in having a protection trained dog. I have thought about many of them and they would all be brought up with the training facility, IF I were to go that route. They are actually much more expensive than $5,000. I haven't seen anything under $10,000 that is fully trained. I actually saw one dog that was $55,000. I have a friend who trained her Doberman herself by taking the dog to classes. She spent over $15,000. I know this will be very expensive.

I have entertained the idea of getting a big ole German Shepherd Dog as *just* a pet. She would probably be enough to make someone think twice. Sometimes I think people put too much faith in their pets. I think if the dog isn't trained to protect, it probably won't. I have two wonderful dogs now, a chihuahua mix and a border collie mix. They bark but boy do they LOVE everyone,especially the big dog! Some guy came into my yard once to read our electricity meter and you would have thought my big dog had met her new best friend!

I am really glad that I brought this to the forum. I knew I would be given a lot to think about.

For the gun proponents, how do you get over the emotional hurdle of having a loaded gun in the home with children present? For me, a safe CAN provide some security, but it isn't fail proof. Sometimes, I think that gun safes lull people into a sense of false security and that is where people make mistakes with gun safety.

I watched a 20/20 episode on gun safety. There was a family where all of the children were taught how to use and respect firearms from a very young age. One of the boys still ended up shot and killed by accident. Teaching them young isn't a fail safe. All that being said, my 9 year old is learning safety with pellet guns and BB guns and is going actual hunting this fall.

I forgot to tell all of you, the lady across the street who was robbed had a dog. He is a heeler mix. They broke her sliding glass door, walked into the house, and locked the dog in the bathroom. I was kind of hoping for a dog that wouldn't go with a stranger so easily.

 

[House Cat]

Pepper Spray, Bear Strength is also good, but it really ruins a room if you have to use it inside. It will make the user just as incapacitated as the usee in a closed space. Nasty, nasty stuff!

Still, better than actually dying. It only makes you wish you were dead for a while...

Wink

Funny you should mention that. This is exactly what I bought! I had to buy it by mail although it is legal in my state. Two canisters of it (one for me and one for my daughter). To use while walking our Newfoundland, Griffin. It never occurred to me it could be used in the house. Griffin looks like a bear and deters people, except all the schoolchildren who know him by name and run up to him when we walk him! But stupid dogs sometimes want to attack him. Our vet has reassured my daughter that if push came to shove he would defend himself and also that he would be very hard to kill because dogs have to latch on to something and he is protected by fur and huge amounts of skin everywhere (including at the throat). But my daughter worries that some tiny dog might kill him because he is so gentle!

Deb/AGBF

How far does the pepper spray shoot? Is it a stream of spray?

You gave me the mental picture of a chihuahua trying to attack a Newfie! Thanks LOL!!

 

[Autumnovember]

House cat, where are you from? I'm curious if geography has anything to do with cost for training. After my dog finished his training we had spent a total of 8k and the facility is in central New Jersey. Maybe the advanced training was more, not sure.

 

[WinkHPD]

Pepper Spray, Bear Strength is also good, but it really ruins a room if you have to use it inside. It will make the user just as incapacitated as the usee in a closed space. Nasty, nasty stuff!

Still, better than actually dying. It only makes you wish you were dead for a while...

Wink

Funny you should mention that. This is exactly what I bought! I had to buy it by mail although it is legal in my state. Two canisters of it (one for me and one for my daughter). To use while walking our Newfoundland, Griffin. It never occurred to me it could be used in the house. Griffin looks like a bear and deters people, except all the schoolchildren who know him by name and run up to him when we walk him! But stupid dogs sometimes want to attack him. Our vet has reassured my daughter that if push came to shove he would defend himself and also that he would be very hard to kill because dogs have to latch on to something and he is protected by fur and huge amounts of skin everywhere (including at the throat). But my daughter worries that some tiny dog might kill him because he is so gentle!

Deb/AGBF

How far does the pepper spray shoot? Is it a stream of spray?

You gave me the mental picture of a chihuahua trying to attack a Newfie! Thanks LOL!!

It is a stream of spray, varying products will shoot more or less distance, and some are more incapacitating than others. I was taught to shoot center mass, just like my rifle or pistol, as the spray turns to gas quickly and keeps rising into the mouth and nose area and continues to "annoy" the now victim until he/she decides to lay down and wish for death. Even if you "miss" and only brush a shoulder, it is very effective, where as if you miss the head shot, it can be detrimental to your continued health. Fortunately, as a spray, you can easily correct your aim and direct it to the right spot, long before you have discharged the entire canister. It is always best not to shoot into the wind, but you may or may not have time to worry about that if you actually need your spray out of doors. At worst, you can lay down and be sick alongside your attacker, it is still better than letting him/her attack at will. Oh, be sure to practice getting the spray out and "firing" quickly (do not actually fire, just have it ready to fire). Do this often so that in a real emergency you do not grab it in a panic and shoot yourself in the eyes.

If it is legal in your state, go to a local gun store and talk with someone there who knows about the sprays, they can answer your questions more properly.

I used to give pepper spray to my employees to use in event of emergency and I still keep a small canister in my belly drawer. Every six months or so I go dig it out of the clutter in the drawer and put it back in the front of the drawer where I can actually reach it. It has no value in the back of the drawer if I can not reach it nearly instantly if needed. This conversation just prompted me to make it only three months and it is now back where I shall, hopefully, never actually need it.

By the way, given the choice, I will spray you rather than shoot you if you come after me. I will have been just as "excited" during the event, but I will not need another two or three lifetimes to erase the stain from my soul of having had to kill you. It is NOT like the movies, and you do NOT just go on with being normal after such an event.

Like many vets, I do not do war movies. Nearly 50 years after my tour, I can not stand to think on it much. I will do what it takes to protect my family, but my property I try to protect with non lethal means if given the choice. If not given the choice, then I will have to decide if I want to face the horror of killing or not. Actually, without a family member at risk, it will not be an easy choice to make. It IS that hard.

Wink

 

[partgypsy]

Yes, having a gun for protection means you have to be willing to shoot to kill.

My father was in both the Greek CIA and in the US army, and was a trained sharpshooter. Extremely good shot. He enjoys going to the target range sometimes and keeping in practice, but was explicit about not having a gun in the house growing up. He allowed my little brother to practice target shooting with a bow and arrow, but not guns, because again, if you have a gun in your home you have to be willing to shoot to kill. The other deterrent, my parents in law growing up in WV, many break ins were for the purpose of stealing guns. Might as well eliminate that reason to break in my house.

I do want to take another course in self defense, and take it with my daughter. They are effective. I was mugged by a guy with a knife and was able to get away. Obviously with a gun it would have been different, but I'm not a gun person.

I am considering getting one of those shocker thingies where they shoot out wires, but I need to research what is legal in my state.

My belief is bottom line, if someone really wants to kill you they probably can, you just want to discourage them from attempting in the first place. Other than my husband and children, don't have anything in my house I am willing to kill over.

 

[sonnyjane]

For the gun proponents, how do you get over the emotional hurdle of having a loaded gun in the home with children present? For me, a safe CAN provide some security, but it isn't fail proof. Sometimes, I think that gun safes lull people into a sense of false security and that is where people make mistakes with gun safety.

I watched a 20/20 episode on gun safety. There was a family where all of the children were taught how to use and respect firearms from a very young age. One of the boys still ended up shot and killed by accident. Teaching them young isn't a fail safe.

Get a biometric safe. My friend has one that opens with fingerprints and they have a 2 year old. It might behoove you to speak to an arms instructor to get another perspective. Curious, what happens if you buy a $20,000 guard dog and it gets cancer or in an accident or something. Do they have an insurance policy? That's a lot of money.

 

[AGBF]

You gave me the mental picture of a chihuahua trying to attack a Newfie! Thanks LOL!!

Ironically, or maybe not (Newfies are enormously strong dogs...they are just not aggressive dogs), Griffin's best playmate was a 1 year-old Pit Bull puppy until we had an incident just before Thanksgiving. They were perfectly matched for strength although the puppy had tons more energy. I adored that puppy! (He is still alive and fine, don't worry!) I won't threadjack anymore, though. I will go dig up Griffin's thread to tell the story.

Deb

 

[Karl_K]

I see some very good points about the dangers in having a protection trained dog. I have thought about many of them and they would all be brought up with the training facility, IF I were to go that route. They are actually much more expensive than $5,000. I haven't seen anything under $10,000 that is fully trained. I actually saw one dog that was $55,000. I have a friend who trained her Doberman herself by taking the dog to classes. She spent over $15,000. I know this will be very expensive.

They could have went up since the last time I looked.
Level 1 was around 5k and level 2 was around 10k-15k and level 3 went up to 50k
Add a few thousand for those that were trained in Germany.
$55k would likely be one that is drug and explosive trained as well as protection trained(level 3) in Germany.

 

[Karl_K]

Something else to consider is many areas don't have an exception for protection dogs in their vicious dog laws and they may end up putting your dog down for defending you.
There also have been cases where children sicked trained dogs on other children with horrible results.
A trained dog is a weapon that has to be treated with the same respect as a firearm.

 

[partgypsy]

As far as the dog, depends on what you want it to do for you. My friend has two very large mixed breed dogs, who are as typical, protective of her house. She lives in a borderline neighborhood, hasn't had any issues. Same thing with our dog. Mixed breed, but as bonded with our family is protective of homestead and is on alert, barks if someone unfamiliar approaches either door. Cost is close to 0. If you went this route, a part german shephard or chow would be better than say a lab.

You could do training yourself. My greatgrandparents had 2 german shepherds as guard dogs, to roam the fenced yard. I believe they trained them, themselves. Unfortunately they were not used as pets, and were not considered safe around children.

 

[Jambalaya]

I vote for a dog. As others have pointed out, even with the best training there are nasty accidents with family members and guns. Unless you live in a really swish mansion (so that the bad guys think there are real gains to be made) a dog will be a great deterrent and, in most cases, I'd think the burglars would just go for an easier target, particularly if the dog is combined with other sensible methods like security lights, excellent locks, no hiding places and a burglar alarm connected to the police station. You could also have some pepper spray in the house if it makes you feel better. But all those things I just listed, that's a lot of deterrent. I doubt you're going to be in a situation where someone wants to kill or rob you, particularly, so bad that they won't just move on to a target with less hassle.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="House Cat|1421419660|3817372........ I was kind of hoping for a dog that wouldn't go with a stranger so easily.[/quote]

re dogs going with strangers: many robbers just bring along some raw meat to feed the dog........in other cases they put poison in the raw meat.

 

[ponder]

I'm not going to weigh in on which is better for you but this thread reminded me that your homeowners insurance may penalize you with increased rates or deny you coverage if you choose to have a trained guard dog. My homeowners insurance always asks about pets and dog breeds owned when we have started a new policy. These questions are always with the questions about trampolines and ATV's on the property. I guess they are used in assessing risk.

I have never been asked about guns.

 

[TooPatient]

Guns with a kid in the house:

Get a biometric safe that will only open for your husband's fingerprints. Try it out to be sure only his work.

Put a lock on your bedroom door and lock it when you are gone (or even in a different part of the house).

If you want an extra layer, you can put the gun safe in a locking cupboard/nightstand.

Also, talk to the kid as you feel appropriate. Don't scare them over the bad gun in your room. Just talk about how guns are tools that have to be used just right or people can get hurt. Let them know that it is NEVER okay to touch one until after they take a special class when they are older (how old is your call and could even mean you wait until they are adults and choose to do so).


Oh! There was also talk on a gun board about special fingerprint trigger locks so basically the gun only shoots for the person who it is programmed for. Not too familiar with these or even sure where you get them if they are out yet.

 

[AGBF]

As far as the dog, depends on what you want it to do for you. My friend has two very large mixed breed dogs, who are as typical, protective of her house. She lives in a borderline neighborhood, hasn't had any issues. Same thing with our dog. Mixed breed, but as bonded with our family is protective of homestead and is on alert, barks if someone unfamiliar approaches either door. Cost is close to 0. If you went this route, a part german shephard or chow would be better than say a lab.

My 110 pound Lab bit anyone who came onto our front porch. RIP, Biscuit*!

AGBF

*Link to thread in which Biscuit is discussed...[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/good-family-dogs.151478/page-4']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/good-family-dogs.151478/page-4[/URL]

 

[packrat]

We're getting a biometric safe. I would feel better, personally, having a gun rather than a trained attack dog. That's my opinion.

 

[telephone89]

I feel like this is such a typical american question haha. This question does not come up often in Canada (or at least where I live, and I used to live in a pretty sketchy part of town).

Personally, I would never own a gun. That is just that. No if ands or buts. However, when we did live in a sketchy neighborhood, both of my neighbors were broken into (one was actually twice). I think the only reason that we didn't was because we had dogs. Not trained dogs by any means, but they were noisy. Someone knocked on the door, they barked. A leaf flew by, they barked. It would be very difficult for an intruder to come in unnoticed when our dogs were so noisy. Really, in theory our neighbors probably just block out the barking and wouldn't have done much because it happens so often, but I can see how it would startle an intruder.

So, overall, I would go with a dog. But I hate the thought of someone buying an animal as a weapon, rather than a pet/part of the family. But to each their own.

 

[NTave]

I really think you need both. Guns are not helpful in people who are not very familiar with them, so I don't think average Joe or Jane should use them as protection, it's not safe. but your husband is trained in safety and is obviously comfortable with them. Guns are cheaper than dogs in the long run, but dogs pick up on things that we as humans don't. I really love having a dog that lets me know when someone is nearby, even if they are 200 yards away. One is not the substitute for the other.

 

[House Cat]

I have pretty much decided that I will have pet dogs but no one will be protection trained. The idea that my dog might be put down after doing her job is just devastating. I will look for a gentle, yet protective breed because there are many wrestling matches in this home!

We will be looking at biometric safes very soon.

Thank you everyone for giving me so much to think about.


And Wink, thank you for your service.

 

[Maria D]

I feel like this is such a typical american question haha. This question does not come up often in Canada (or at least where I live, and I used to live in a pretty sketchy part of town).

Personally, I would never own a gun. That is just that. No if ands or buts. However, when we did live in a sketchy neighborhood, both of my neighbors were broken into (one was actually twice). I think the only reason that we didn't was because we had dogs. Not trained dogs by any means, but they were noisy. Someone knocked on the door, they barked. A leaf flew by, they barked. It would be very difficult for an intruder to come in unnoticed when our dogs were so noisy. Really, in theory our neighbors probably just block out the barking and wouldn't have done much because it happens so often, but I can see how it would startle an intruder.

So, overall, I would go with a dog. But I hate the thought of someone buying an animal as a weapon, rather than a pet/part of the family. But to each their own.

Yep, definitely an American question!

I don't understand the point of having an unloaded gun in a safe with the ammunition stored in another part of your house if you are using the gun for protection. If one is living in fear that can only be mitigated by the assurance that she will be able to shoot dead a home intruder, it only makes sense to keep the gun loaded and nearby. According to this Forbes article http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcwebertobias/2012/07/27/unsafe-gun-safes-can-be-opened-by-a-three-year-old/,, it's not that difficult for a child to open a gun safe anyway, so might as well skip the safe.

It doesn't matter to a large group of Americans that keeping a gun in the home creates more problems than it solves, but others may be interested in this article http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262.html?hp=m1#.VLqed8aqCMi

 

[packrat]

A smart and responsible gun owner would never skip the gun safe b/c kids may be able to get into it. That's irresponsible and asking for problems. Even if the kids could get into the gun safe-a smart and responsible gun owner would store their weapons unloaded and with ammunition elsewhere also under lock and key. Sometimes things work both ways. Nobody is going to break into a home for firearms if they're hard to get to, and take the chance that the homeowner is sitting there with a loaded gun. Who knows tho, criminals aren't always the smartest apples.

 

[zoebartlett]

I'd get a dog, hands down. Guns make me nervous, and the dog would be a great family companion in addition to providing protection.

 

[House Cat]

I feel like this is such a typical american question haha. This question does not come up often in Canada (or at least where I live, and I used to live in a pretty sketchy part of town).

Personally, I would never own a gun. That is just that. No if ands or buts. However, when we did live in a sketchy neighborhood, both of my neighbors were broken into (one was actually twice). I think the only reason that we didn't was because we had dogs. Not trained dogs by any means, but they were noisy. Someone knocked on the door, they barked. A leaf flew by, they barked. It would be very difficult for an intruder to come in unnoticed when our dogs were so noisy. Really, in theory our neighbors probably just block out the barking and wouldn't have done much because it happens so often, but I can see how it would startle an intruder.

So, overall, I would go with a dog. But I hate the thought of someone buying an animal as a weapon, rather than a pet/part of the family. But to each their own.

Yep, definitely an American question!

I don't understand the point of having an unloaded gun in a safe with the ammunition stored in another part of your house if you are using the gun for protection. If one is living in fear that can only be mitigated by the assurance that she will be able to shoot dead a home intruder, it only makes sense to keep the gun loaded and nearby. According to this Forbes article http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcwebertobias/2012/07/27/unsafe-gun-safes-can-be-opened-by-a-three-year-old/,,,, it's not that difficult for a child to open a gun safe anyway, so might as well skip the safe.

It doesn't matter to a large group of Americans that keeping a gun in the home creates more problems than it solves, but others may be interested in this article http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262.html?hp=m1#.VLqed8aqCMi

Thank you for the article on the gun safes. This wouldn't be a purchase I would skimp on. We have a local safe maker nearby, I will be interested in grilling them on the safety of their products.

Our firearms are stored in a safe and away from the ammunition because they are used for hunting, not home protection.

Eta: even a firearm used for home protection would be unloaded in a safe with ammo very well hidden nearby

 

[Maria D]

Thank you for the article on the gun safes. This wouldn't be a purchase I would skimp on. We have a local safe maker nearby, I will be interested in grilling them on the safety of their products.

Our firearms are stored in a safe and away from the ammunition because they are used for hunting, not home protection.

Eta: even a firearm used for home protection would be unloaded in a safe with ammo very well hidden nearby

You're welcome. I'm not a gun owner but know many hunters and that's how they store their guns too. While it is of course safer to store guns in this fashion regardless of the intended use, a gun that's not loaded and accessible is not going to offer much protection against a home invasion. Wasn't that the point of the thread?

I went back and read your first post and see that wrote "dangerous situation" not home invasion. I just equated the two, but maybe you are talking about a situation that's dangerous but you are not caught off guard. It's hard for me to relate because I live in a very safe area. If I were truly worried about "dangerous situations" in my home that required shooting someone dead, I'd move. If that was impossible, or if everywhere was equally dangerous, I'd get a gun, learn to use it, and keep it loaded and nearby at all times.

 

[partgypsy]

We actually get a discount on our house insurance because we have a dog, because it is considered an alarm.

There may be a way for you to look into your house insurance before you make any changes.

 

[Karl_K]

According to this Forbes article http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcwebertobias/2012/07/27/unsafe-gun-safes-can-be-opened-by-a-three-year-old/,,, it's not that difficult for a child to open a gun safe anyway, so might as well skip the safe.

There are some junk "safes" out there and many of those in the article were recalled that is not a good reason not to have one.