How close should table and depth be to eachother for princes

[garek007]

Hi,

I'm using the chart from this page

http://www.lumeradiamonds.com/diamond-education/princess-cut-diamond

as a guide to find a great looking princess diamond. I already know what color, clarity etc I want, but what I want to know is how close the table and depth should be to each other?

For example, I'm finding a lot of diamonds that claim to be excellent or very good symmetry and polish, but the table and depth numbers are all over the map. Based on the chart at the link above, I know that they need to fall within a certain range, but what about the relationship to one another?

Many of the stones I'm finding are having numbers like 72% Depth 70% Table, or 75% Depth, 72% Table, but I just came across one that was 78% Depth and 61% Table, yet it claims to be an excellent cut! How can this be? (that diamond is below)
https://www.pricescope.com/diamond/f60091b732fb76e5eab5cbd589d07ed2

What I'm hoping you can tell me, is there some sort of closeness those two numbers should have? Is there some relationship between them? For the best diamond, will table always be just slightly less than Depth? Or is that irrelevant?

Please don't try to pick out diamonds for me, just help me understand this dilemma... Thank you!

 

[JulieN]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Shop by pictures, not numbers

 

[Gypsy]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

You can't buy a princess from the numbers.

This thread will tell you what you need to know: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/princess-cut-diamond-input-feedback-needed.200247/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/princess-cut-diamond-input-feedback-needed.200247/[/URL] Please read.

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Ok but if I'm buying online, pictures don't really do the stones justice do they? I've read on here that so many factors can affect the way the stone photographs, and I don't know what I'm looking for visually. I can shop buy numbers, but using my eyes I don't know what's what...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

HI Garek,
Very good questions.
For one thing, please disregard any chart that purports to classify a princess cut diamond based on table depth, etc.
And I mean disregard the chart ENTIRELY.

So how do you choose?
You can request, and post ASET images, and have other people tell you what they think.
If they understand ASET they may actually be able to glean info from the image, and then they will be able to pick a stone they like.
There's a number of issues with the method.
Mainly, it seems like you're getting some sort of concrete answer ( "oh that's a great ASET" or "that's a bad ASET) when you're simply getting someone's opinion.
I have seen many cases of stones being dismissed outright here based on ASET or numerical data where I don't agree with the assessment.
IN the case of princess cuts, there's a fairly wide range of stones that will be considered well cut- and there will be noticeable visual differences from one style to another.

AGSL does grade the cut of princess cut diamonds- however there's no broad acceptance that an AGSL 0 cut grade is necessarily cut "better" than a well cut stone with no AGSL cut grade.
There's a premium to pay for the AGSL stones, so making sure you love the look is very important.
Personally I prefer a "spreadier" stone- one that shows a good size for it's weight.
To try and simplify the differences between an AGSL 0 cut grade, and a well cut spready stone: with the spready stone you trade off some intensity of the flashes- in return you get a larger looking diamond, and far more sparkles, that are slightly less bright.
This might sound a bit confusing, but if you looked at two stones you'd either see it, or possibly not. Some of the differences discussed are subtle.

Personally, I do believe that many of the photos I see online are actually useful in giving a basic idea of how the stone looks to a "regular" consumer. There's no accepted method for assessing an ASET image.

Have you looked in person?

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Hey that helps a lot. What do you mean have I looked in person? These are online retailers, so how would i do that? Yes I've seen a diamond before. In fact, bought one before, but that didn't work out. The stone I bought was 1.5 carat, G, VVS1 and beautiful. I was nervous about getting a crappy stone online so I figured, if I bought high on the numbers then I couldn't possibly end up with a bad stone. There was also a rep at Union Diamond who compared a few and helped me select the best one. After seeing that stone and some other stones I realized I didn't need to go so high in the numbers. I realized H color would work, as would a lower clarity, but still, without seeing the stone in person for myself, how will I know for sure if a VS2 is "Eye Clean"??? This is one of the reasons I'm trying to rely on the numbers so much.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

By looking in person, I mean in jewelry stores.
Try finer ones that may have a good selection.
If you can find a store carrying both AGSL and well cut GIA graded princess cuts, so much the better.
I LOVE what you wrote about not needing to over-reach.
That's another big issue I notice in online and in store shopping.
When someone asks about a J color, they may be dismissed offhand. "Nobody likes those, J colors suck" - all the while pushing up your budget to an H color. In fact, some people actually prefer a J color to a D color.
IN terms of clarity, most VS2 princess cuts will be eye clean- but not all.
BUT- how about the fact that there's a percentage of SI2 diamonds that WILL be eye clean.
Knowing this may allow you to widen your search.

But the color and clarity are a bit of a separate issue from the cutting style.

I hope you can get to see a few in person......and report back to us!

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Ok you're suggesting I view in person, but won't prices in a B&M be much more expensive? Last time I purchased I was able to get a much higher quality stone for the same price as a lower quality stone at Robbins Bros.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Please understand that Rockdiamond's opinion is his and only his.

There are many things above that Rockdiamond says that many experts disagree with. There a dozens of threads on this board that show other experts disagreeing with Rockdiamond .

I can read an ASET. I own one actually. And can translate what the ASET means in terms of performance. And do have the objectivity to tell you what a nice princess looks like, regardless of my personal preferences.

The problem with Rockdiamond's advice is this: Jewelers lights can be very misleading when it comes to making stones look good that are otherwise poor performers. And most people, like yourself wouldn't know what a great princess looks like. So if a jeweler lines up a bunch of medicore stones. Sure you will be able to pick the best of what was offered. But will that be the best stone your budget can buy you? No.

So what is the solution. Well some online vendors like James Allen and Good Old Gold have videos AND ASETs that they offer. So you aren't relying on just a still image that may be doctored. And there are people, like me,who have the objectivity and the experienc3e on these boards to help you make the best choice for your budget. And you will get the online savings that way and a great stone.

Another solution is this. Tell us where you live and we may be able to recommend a good jeweler that will have your best interests at heart and will help you understand what you are seeing in person and so you can make an educated choice from a selection of nice stones. And yes, you might pay a bit more for this, but you will get the assurance of being able to select a diamond in person.

Either way, you win.

So just let us know which route you want to go, and I'll be happy to help you.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Garek- yes, in general a jewelry store is more expensive than online stores- but they may be able to offer you advantages that make up for it.
If you find a good jeweler, they already know this- and hopefully will invest a little time to try and earn your business. Ultimately you will decide where to buy, but seeing more stones in person will help you to develop your eye.
If Gypsy is correct and you can't tell what a well cut princess from a poorly cut one, then it makes no sense to spend for a well cut stone.
But again, my opinion is a bit different here. You most likely WILL be able to see differences in light performance, and certainly in spread.
I doubt you'd be swayed by high intensity lights- you'd probably ask the see the stone in different lighting ( you strike me as an intelligent person)

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

I"m looking at a stone under 1 carat, so I'm not sure I'll be able to see much difference in performace, mayb from a D to an I color and poor cut to ideal yeah, but probably not from a few stones that are very close. My biggest objective here is getting a good buy. When I overpay for something I tend to feel like I've been had. I don't want to pay for an SI1 stone when I can get VS2 or better for the same price. I guess I could go bigger with an SI1, but I'll always know I could have gotten a better quality stone online...

So I'm pretty set on buying online, unless a local jeweler can compete with the online prices. I'm willing to pay a touch more, but not 30% more. The last time I bought the person at Union Diamond helped me choose a great stone. I was not there to choose it in person, but when I got it, I was delighted and it was perfect. I'm happy to go through that process again and buy a stone sight unseen, because I'm confident I'll get good results again.

I honestly don't think I'd be able to tell subtle differences, and my girlfriend probably can't either.

Anyway, I'm in San Diego if you can recommend any good jewelers, maybe I'll see if they can come close to the online pricing. But I do still believe that if I at least start with the numbers, it's a good place to start. And actually Rocky, I probably would not have thought to take the stone away from the bright overhead lights...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Rocky. I love it.
Thank you.
It's actually my nickname in real life.


In any event.....My suggestion about going to view in person was more aimed at having you look at a few types of cuts, so you could prioritize- figure out the type of look you want, regardless of where you purchase.
I agree it's rare for a jewelry store to be able to compete on pricing with aggressive internet pricing.
A shame, because local jewelry stores are getting rarer and rarer.

About the AGSL stones- looking will either sell you the stone, or not.
If you love the look, they are well worth the money. And it is easier to make sure you get a really well cut stone, if you love the look of AGSL 0
Again, just my opinion.


If I can ask- now it's professional curiosity- you had a great experience with a well regarded seller- why not go back?

 

[Gypsy]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Numbers are a terrible place to start with princesses.

No one with any level of experience is going to tell you otherwise when it comes to princesses.

Why don't you tell me what you want. And how much you want to pay. And I'll find some nice stones for you to chose from.

Okay?

Then you need pictures and an ASET.

The numbers are meaningless. That lab report tells you NOTHING about how the diamond will perform.


Here is what I mean. Compare these two:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.00-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-295886
G color
VS2
Depth 76.3
Table 69
Ratio: 1.01
Excellent polish
Good Symmetry
Girdle Medium

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.00-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-283672
G color
VS2 clarity
Depth 76.2
Table 69.9
Ratio: 1.02
Very good polish
Very good symmetry
Girdle Thin to Slightly thick

Numbers are VERY close right? And the first one has a better girdle. And while the symmetry on the first one is only good, that's not a disqualifier with princeses.

Now look at the pictures. The first one is a VERY dark stone, and frankly a dog as far as princesses go. Second one is an AGS0 with ideal light return and is very bright, with just enough patterning to provide contrast.

In summary. YOU NEED AN ASET AND IMAGES and preferrably a video.

Also please go back and read this thread I posted for you: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/princess-cut-diamond-input-feedback-needed.200247/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/princess-cut-diamond-input-feedback-needed.200247/[/URL]

 

[FancyIntense]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Ok you're suggesting I view in person, but won't prices in a B&M be much more expensive? Last time I purchased I was able to get a much higher quality stone for the same price as a lower quality stone at Robbins Bros.

garek007, look at every princess cut you can in every store you can. Take pictures of the stones at the store even. This will give you experience in what you see and train your eye to notice more differences. Among the stones you look at, some will stand out in your mind as really good and others will look obviously bad to you.

When you get back online you will be able to determine more about what you are seeing. After you determine what you like most, then look at the numbers and see what they say. Likely, you have the same preference over and over.

High Performance Diamonds an online dealer and Pricescope vendor that carry Crafted by Infinity( known for superior optics in cut quality) carry high performance princess cuts, you can also compare there as well.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

I do not know of any jewelery stores in San Diego for princess cuts (just old cuts).

Sorry.

Please post your budget and what you want for it and I will be happy to search for nice princess cuts for you.

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Hey that helps a lot. What do you mean have I looked in person? These are online retailers, so how would i do that? Yes I've seen a diamond before. In fact, bought one before, but that didn't work out. The stone I bought was 1.5 carat, G, VVS1 and beautiful. I was nervous about getting a crappy stone online so I figured, if I bought high on the numbers then I couldn't possibly end up with a bad stone. There was also a rep at Union Diamond who compared a few and helped me select the best one. After seeing that stone and some other stones I realized I didn't need to go so high in the numbers. I realized H color would work, as would a lower clarity, but still, without seeing the stone in person for myself, how will I know for sure if a VS2 is "Eye Clean"??? This is one of the reasons I'm trying to rely on the numbers so much.

Secret to seeing in person is only to buy from people who will take the diamond back, without hassle, if you are not super happy with it when it comes in.

Most princess cuts are cut to retain extra weight and not so much to give you the beauty you deserve. This means you are likely to kiss a lot of Frogs before you find a prince, or princess, depending on your tastes.

You need to look at retails stores as much as possible to determine what you like, then be prepared to ask a lot of questions, and get a lot of answers, some of which will be better than others. NEVER, NEVER, EVER, Ever, NEVER buy a diamond of any shape on line without the right to return if for a full refund (usually minus postage) if you do not like it.

Wink

 

[FancyIntense]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGPrHtnnbs

Good old Gold on youtube.com is a great place to learn about diamond cut as well. Here is video on princess cuts just posted.

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

To answer some questions, I bought from Union Diamond in the past. Why not go back?... I may, but just exploring options, seeing if one of the other pricescope vendors might be better.

To answer your question ok, I'm looking at .5 - 1 carat for around 1k give or take. I'd prefer to stay above the SI, so VS2 or better and H color or better. I realize this will put me closer to the .5 carat range and I'm ok with that.

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Also, the reason I may not go with Union Diamond again is that I don't care for their settings. There's one at James Allen I really like, and a couple contenders at WF as well.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGPrHtnnbs

Good old Gold on youtube.com is a great place to learn about diamond cut as well. Here is video on princess cuts just posted.

Hi FancyIntense - nice name!!

I believe it's important to separate promotional material from educational material.
Basically, the video you posted is an advertisement for items that particular seller promotes. Its a nice ad- it's informative about what that seller sells. But not about diamond cut in general.
Using the term "Ideal optics" in this type of video is simply a sales slogan, made to sound like some sort of scientific fact.
When watching it I felt that the "non ideal" diamond looked better- which many people probably would.
Without the sales pitch it might be education in that regard. But with the narration, it's an advertisement, and decidedly NOT educational.

 

[tyty333]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Ok but if I'm buying online, pictures don't really do the stones justice do they? I've read on here that so many factors can affect the way the stone photographs, and I don't know what I'm looking for visually. I can shop buy numbers, but using my eyes I don't know what's what...

Then ask for help from PSers. We're happy to help. Numbers for princess cuts are NOT the way to go.

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

Ok here's a fun test. which one looks the best to you? I'm not going to buy any of them, they were sent by someone at WF while I was engaging in questions. But this is a good test for me to see if I know what to look for. I think the H color one on the right is the best combination of color, clarity and size and the ASET and IDEALSCOPE images look good to me. Am I right?

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=3244529,3244881,3244880

 

[garek007]

Re: How close should table and depth be to eachother for pri

no one? bueller?