Lack of material

[gingercurls]

I would like to preface this post by saying that I had originally posted this in Goldstein's thread but decided to remove it from that thread because it became a little nasty.

When I first started browsing PS, I was about 16 years old. Then, I did not have really any money to spend on colored stones and what I was able to afford was small, not top-color, and not precision cut. Although I wasn't able to purchase top quality stones at that time, a little under ten years ago, I distinctly remember a great deal of the following scenarios from that time:
-far more frequent drops being made by vendors
-drops with more material
-vendors offering larger stones
-vendors offering stones with great color, cut, and clarity
-more posts on PS about members acquiring stones that were large, great color, cut, and clarity

Now I feel that the following scenarios are more common:
-far fewer drops being made by vendors
-material that is available in larger sizes is not material that is not particularly popular or in high demand
-stones that are being offered frequently leave something to be desired (the cut will be great, for example, but the clarity or the color of the stone isn't top notch)

I will admit that I feel that there is currently a scarcity of high quality, especially in comparison to when I was first getting into colored stones and PS. I realize that some of this scarcity in certain cases, like with Mahenge spinel, is due to the fact that certain mines for certain material are just not producing stones. Part of me is curious to know what other factors are at play. I would love to get the perspectives and opinions of other PS members and our resident custom cutters!

 

[goldstein]

Completely agree with you.

 

[T L]

Prices have gone up a great deal on much material, and the really scarce material in high demand tends to be bought up by Eastern Asian collectors. The demand is just higher in certain markets, and unfortunately, not as much is offered to the West.

That doesn't mean you can't find anything beautiful, but you have to be more patient, educated in colored stones, and ask the right questions.

 

[gingercurls]

Thanks for your response TL! I agree with you. I feel like before it was very easy to find higher quality stones and it was not often always necessary to ask around and make special requests and inquiries to find exactly what you were looking for.

Just based off of my own observations and what I remember from when I was starting out on PS, I think that the following types of stones examples of material that is not readily available in larger sizes (2.5+carats) with top or close to top color or clarity:
-spinel of any type, but particularly Mahenge spinel and Luc Yen material
-mandarin Spessartite garnet
-Merelani mint garnet
-Tsavorite garnet

I feel that these are stones are examples of what is available in larger sizes with good color, cut, and clarity:
-blue zircon
-danburite
-Chrysoberyl

 

[T L]

Thanks for your response TL! I agree with you. I feel like before it was very easy to find higher quality stones and it was not often always necessary to ask around and make special requests and inquiries to find exactly what you were looking for.

Just based off of my own observations and what I remember from when I was starting out on PS, I think that the following types of stones examples of material that is not readily available in larger sizes (2.5+carats) with top or close to top color or clarity:
-spinel of any type, but particularly Mahenge spinel and Luc Yen material
-mandarin Spessartite garnet
-Merelani mint garnet
-Tsavorite garnet

I feel that these are stones are examples of what is available in larger sizes with good color, cut, and clarity:
-blue zircon
-danburite
-Chrysoberyl

A long time ago you could also get well saturated paraiba tourmaine for decent prices, but no longer. I still think spessartite pricing is all over the place, but higher quality material with saturated orange color is getting scarcer IMO.

Get your nice chrysoberyls while you can!!

 

[OTL]

Thanks for your response TL! I agree with you. I feel like before it was very easy to find higher quality stones and it was not often always necessary to ask around and make special requests and inquiries to find exactly what you were looking for.

Just based off of my own observations and what I remember from when I was starting out on PS, I think that the following types of stones examples of material that is not readily available in larger sizes (2.5+carats) with top or close to top color or clarity:
-spinel of any type, but particularly Mahenge spinel and Luc Yen material
-mandarin Spessartite garnet
-Merelani mint garnet
-Tsavorite garnet

I feel that these are stones are examples of what is available in larger sizes with good color, cut, and clarity:
-blue zircon
-danburite
-Chrysoberyl

Agreed

 

[movie zombie]

no disagreement from me re any of the comments in this thread.

I also think that as people get more educated they demand more.
and more people are getting educated.

also, more designers are working with colors tones which is driving up demand as well.

 

[Marlow]

Chrysoberyl is still underated.

Mahenge spinel was to cheap (YES!) for many years - incredible color in larger sizes - Ceylon material is often greyish - burmese much smaller and expensive. Luc Yen offers colors you can't get anywhere else. I keep all my Mahenge!!!

Tsavorite is difficult - fine qualities (color and cut) are rare. Demantoid is overpriced - except fine russian material - course most are ugly colored ( Namibia, Madagascar) - btw. I collect them... - imo.

Blue zircon is very interesting ( buy)

Danburite is dangerous - colorless o.k. but the rest ???? Like Topaze.

Underated is fine Rhodolite.

 

[liao]

you will not believe the demand made by the chinese collectors. I have been collecting rare stone (especially alexandrite and jadeite) for more than 50 years, and I lost more than 75% of my collection in less than 10 years. Why? because those chinese collectors are insane! insanely rich They keep giving me offers I cannot refuse. I believe you can figure out the rest of the story

Spinel was cheap, ruby like color, better clarity, and... huge! In chinese culture, red symbolized good fortune. if they cannot find a fine ruby, what will be the other alternative? Spinel!!!

 

[movie zombie]

I agree re fine rhodie being undervalued......but how much really fine rhodie does one see?!
not enough, imo, and soon that will go to the China as well.

 

[distracts]

Gingercurls - the factors at play in scarcity have been discussed numerous times on PS. A lot of the popular stones have mines that are declining in production. As well, emerging markets in China, etc, are snapping up stones and rough at a rapid clip, which leaves fewer stones available to American cutters - this is why a lot of American precision-cut stones now are recuts versus being cut from rough. As well, there has been increasing demand in America for colored gems. So basically, between a decade ago and now, there has been an increasing demand worldwide for colored gems, while the supply of the most in-demand gems has been decreasing or remaining static. So prices have gone up and availability has gone down. It's just the way the market works.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Threads like this always make me want to horde all my shinies, lol

 

[distracts]

Threads like this always make me want to horde all my shinies, lol

lol same

 

[Marlow]

I agree re fine rhodie being undervalued......but how much really fine rhodie does one see?!
not enough, imo, and soon that will go to the China as well.

But still enough fine material available, really nice tanzanian rhodolite. I am sure we will find enough the next years.

 

[T L]

I agree re fine rhodie being undervalued......but how much really fine rhodie does one see?!
not enough, imo, and soon that will go to the China as well.

But still enough fine material available, really nice tanzanian rhodolite. I am sure we will find enough the next years.

I haven't seen a nice rhodolite in eons. They're usually overly dark.

 

[LoversKites]

Fine bi coloured tourmaline also goes straight to Asian markets.

As TL said, material of all sorts IS available, just harder to find and more expensive, especially in the west (unsure about europe).

Fine, large tanzanite is still quite available but much more pricey than it was in the 80's , or so I have read.

Fine amethyst is also still affordable buy not too plentiful.

I think all garnets but few are becoming more and more expensive.

We are also seeing more treated spinels and garnets, another indication of higher demand.

In my short time involved with CS, alexandrite has seen the highest increase in price and decrease in good material. (At least in my eyes)

 

[T L]

you will not believe the demand made by the chinese collectors. I have been collecting rare stone (especially alexandrite and jadeite) for more than 50 years, and I lost more than 75% of my collection in less than 10 years. Why? because those chinese collectors are insane! insanely rich They keep giving me offers I cannot refuse. I believe you can figure out the rest of the story

Spinel was cheap, ruby like color, better clarity, and... huge! In chinese culture, red symbolized good fortune. if they cannot find a fine ruby, what will be the other alternative? Spinel!!!

Send some of them over to loupetroop!! LOL!

 

[T L]

Fine bi coloured tourmaline also goes straight to Asian markets.

As TL said, material of all sorts IS available, just harder to find and more expensive, especially in the west (unsure about europe).

Fine, large tanzanite is still quite available but much more pricey than it was in the 80's , or so I have read.

Fine amethyst is also still affordable buy not too plentiful.

I think all garnets but few are becoming more and more expensive.

We are also seeing more treated spinels and garnets, another indication of higher demand.

In my short time involved with CS, alexandrite has seen the highest increase in price and decrease in good material. (At least in my eyes)

Tanzanite is the one gem that I haven't seen go up as exponentially like fine spinel for example. It's still priced in the hundreds per carat for fine quality in large sizes, last I looked. The problem is that the shopping channels and the stores have too much of it, and the durability is poor, even though it is a beautiful color. Gem Shopping Network regularly sells very large and fine pieces for example, and the prices aren't too bad, even for a shopping channel. I'm also not sure if tanzanite is that in demand in the East, which is why its still plentiful in Western countries.

 

[LoversKites]

Thanks TL. Good to know.

 

[Edward Bristol]

I would add:

Hessonite: up and coming.

 

[mochiko42]

There was plenty of material (albeit pricey) available that I saw at the HK shows. I guess all your "missing" gems are in Asia! Time for a PS GTG here?? [emoji16]

 

[T L]

I would add:

Hessonite: up and coming.

Too brown.

If all we're left with are brown and grey gems, that's not saying much for the quality left out there.

 

[texaskj]

I may be way off base here, but it seems that a lot of gems are found in some of the most dangerous/unstable parts of the world.

 

[liao]

chinese demand is the root of this problem. When I went to Burma last month, you will not believe the scenery of chinese buyers flooding every available vendors. These people are buying untreated to highly treated gem as if burma will stop producing gem on the next day

When I visited one of my favorite dealer in Bangkok, I cannot believe that they will no longer deal with retail customers like me (I bought at least 10 gems every year from this dealer, and I have been dealing for more than 20 years with this dealer). He said that he was forced to do this because he could no longer keep up with the demand

 

[Desertrose]

I wanted to revive this thread, and see if the opinion has changed at all since 2014...

Has material availability improved, stayed the same, or decreased?

Are there new stones to add to the list of 'still a good buy' for the moment?

Has the pressure from Asian markets lessened?

Has mine production increased/slowed?

 

[chatoyancy]

Yikes! This thread is depressing! Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read that mahenge garnet was a new disovery as well as Rwandan amethyst. I hope my info is correct so I can add a silver lining.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I'll be in Tucson near the end of the month, and will get a better feel then. From what I have hear, the Chinese market does seem to be cooling off a bit.
Good rough has been in short supply the past few years, and the prices up, but it has still been available. I have passed on many items due to the price, as the US market doesn't seem yet ready for these higher prices. I have found that once a stone gets above $400 it has been much harder to sell in the US than say 5 or 10 years ago. This could be a state of the economy here? I know wages have been pretty stagnant for some time.
The bigger more expensive rough stones I have, I don't even bother cutting, I just have them put aside. I had some larger more expensive things for sale, and have had zero interest in them.

 

[mastercutgems]

Ditto to Gene's comments...

Many of us ole time cutters ( not saying gene is old ) But I do not cut my big stuff and have not for over 3 years... I have been buying rough for over 25 years and still get many offers but cannot seem to pull the trigger not knowing what is shakin down in the good ole USA and now with VAT taxes in Europe and the high cost of insuring gems to other countries it is making it hard for the consumer... and the cutter...

We still buy when there is a deal and quality is there; yes no brown, dark gloomy colors in gems as they do not sell.

Neon colors are not offered as they once were and Sri Lanka dealers are not backing down on prices but heading in the upward direction in price. I have been concentrating on buying old cutters and collectors collections to re-cut or cut their old stock rough. As I see it I still have about 8 more years of good cutting rough and re-cuts; but unless there is something in the mix for all our economies I will go back to farming as everyone has to eat..

But yes we see a big change in the amount of fine quality rough that is being offered these days; yes the fine pink purple Umbalite garnets are still a nice buy for the money if they are not too overly saturated, blue zircons, and one of my all time favorites is the Pakistan peridot; I think it is totally underrated as from that location it is a vivid grass green in a brilliant design; not the old yellow-green lifeless gem we all come to know in the 1980's and 1990's...
The Mahenge garnets are nice but much like their cousin the Lindi garnet from the same or close location is a unpredictable gem as it shifts and sometimes the shift can be on the tan or flesh colored side and many Ladies do not like that color on their skin. So I have quit buying them as they many times do not look as nice when cut as they did in the rough. But that is true with many gems...

Oh the fun of being the cutter LOL

Dig deep and always look to see what new finds are being discovered; it is all part of the fun.

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[elle_71125]

This was an enjoyable and informative read.

 

[Burmesedaze]

I've spoken locally to a number of various Burmese traders and mine owners. Good rough is indeed getting scarce and top quality ones bypass the local market. Want Burmese Alexandrite? Go to Hong Kong. Not seen by local traders in years. Want icy lavender jadeite? Not available locally, sorry.

The China market is slowing down. Which has caused some traders to switch to another line of work here (car trading) that generates regular income. Concession owners are also keeping their stuff in storage and not selling in the depressed market, both locally and overseas.