Sometimes some women just suck

[Jambalaya]

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/03/27/this-pretty-girl-was-seeking-a-rich-husband-the-reply-she-got-from-a-banker-was-priceless/
Kenny, you reminded me of this article I read the other day. I thought it was pretty good.

The article is very funny. Money = appreciation asset, looks = depreciation asset. Can't argue with him there!

Many, many moons ago when I was young, a girl in my office declared out loud that she wanted to marry someone rich, and it wasn't said as a joke. I remember being absolutely floored. Floored that someone would think like that. And even more so, that she would be stupid enough to say it out loud!

Another friend thought aloud once how lovely it would be to date someone rich and that she'd really enjoy it. Again, flawed thinking and value system. But she ended up happily married to someone without much money, so clearly she wasn't a serious gold-digger.

I have another friend who really has no money, and her boyfriend of many years has a lot - multiple properties in very expensive areas, etc etc. She doesn't like it - she says it creates a power imbalance and she'd prefer they were financial equals. He doesn't give her any money or help her out or give her expensive presents or holidays, and she wouldn't accept it if he tried. But I think she's felt the power imbalance sometimes. Before she met him, another guy with a lot of money took her out on a date, turned up in his Ferrari etc. She didn't have a second date with him - she said he wasn't the right person for her, and everyone was surprised that she didn't want to give Mr. Rich another chance. But she is one person whom money can't buy, and she says going out with someone wealthy isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, people sure do vary.

 

[Jambalaya]

I think it is naive to think that a person's attractiveness doesn't influence how others treat him/her. I have experienced it myself when I was young and pretty. I was never as bad as this woman but in hindsight I occasionally took advantage of my looks and sometimes somewhat immature behavior was tolerated and men were nice to me because of my appearance. I'm not proud of this btw, but that's how men reacted to me and I went with it. Don't worry, payback is a b!tch and I have since lost my looks and look older than my age, so I'm getting my comeuppance.

I feel life is sometimes a bit easier for attractive people, as unfair as that is.

Maybe it's sometimes easier, but it can also be harder I think. I have two very beautiful women friends. We're very close because I'm not at all threatened by their looks, so I can see that they are modest, kind, caring people. Independently, they have both told me that a not-insignificant number of both men and women can be absolutely horrible to them when they have been nothing but nice.

I googled it. Look at this - some psychologists think there's such a things as The Pretty Penalty:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-small-talk/201108/when-being-beautiful-backfires

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2622184


What is really unfair is that you don't see attractive men being treated this way for being attractive, I think. Not as much, anyway. Whereas it seems there can be a lot of hate in the hearts of both men and women toward attractive women.

Certain men and women, of course. Not all.

To put it another way, both sexes seem to hate attractive women, but attractive men don't seem to come in for the same kind of flak. You might say that men experience jealousy over traditionally male successes like wealth, status etc, but I haven't seen it or heard the men in my life talk about it. It seems that when a man does well, he's clapped on the back.

Most of the hatred in the world seems to be directed toward women. Too fat, too thin, too pretty, too ugly, too loud, too mousy, too married, too single, too many children, not enough children.

Women's appearance, lives, and bodies are scrutinized in a way that men's are not.

Feel free to correct me. This is just my opinion.

 

[kenny]

I think it is naive to think that a person's attractiveness doesn't influence how others treat him/her. I have experienced it myself when I was young and pretty. I was never as bad as this woman but in hindsight I occasionally took advantage of my looks and sometimes somewhat immature behavior was tolerated and men were nice to me because of my appearance. I'm not proud of this btw, but that's how men reacted to me and I went with it. Don't worry, payback is a b!tch and I have since lost my looks and look older than my age, so I'm getting my comeuppance.

I feel life is sometimes a bit easier for attractive people, as unfair as that is.

Maybe it's sometimes easier, but it can also be harder I think. I have two very beautiful women friends. We're very close because I'm not at all threatened by their looks, so I can see that they are modest, kind, caring people. Independently, they have both told me that a not-insignificant number of both men and women can be absolutely horrible to them when they have been nothing but nice.

I googled it. Look at this - some psychologists think there's such a things as The Pretty Penalty:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-small-talk/201108/when-being-beautiful-backfires

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2622184


What is really unfair is that you don't see attractive men being treated this way for being attractive, I think. Not as much, anyway. Whereas it seems there can be a lot of hate in the hearts of both men and women toward attractive women.

Certain men and women, of course. Not all.

To put it another way, both sexes seem to hate attractive women, but attractive men don't seem to come in for the same kind of flak. You might say that men experience jealousy over traditionally male successes like wealth, status etc, but I haven't seen it or heard the men in my life talk about it. It seems that when a man does well, he's clapped on the back.

Most of the hatred in the world seems to be directed toward women. Too fat, too thin, too pretty, too ugly, too loud, too mousy, too married, too single, too many children, not enough children.

Women's appearance, lives, and bodies are scrutinized in a way that men's are not.

Feel free to correct me. This is just my opinion.

I share that opinion.

 

[Jambalaya]

Two examples. I was out with a friend and her friend a few years ago. I'd never met the friend. We were talking about movies and Jennifer Aniston came up in conversation. That woman just exploded with venom. I can't remember what she said, but the gist of it was "That brainless, untalented, ridiculous waste-of-space BIMBO!"

Well, she'd never met Jennifer Aniston, of course, who has always seemed perfectly nice to me.

Another time, I was sitting with an extended family member on a holiday watching TV. There was a model on the screen who was saying that she wanted to use her money to provide a day retreat in the city for exhausted models to go and relax. (Apparently, agents overbook models and send them scurrying all over the world and book them for shoots just after long-haul flights back from assignments, or book them for multiple shoots per day. I guess it's so the agents can get maximum money out them.) I was sitting there thinking, Oh, that's a nice thing to do, when my companion curls her lip and literally snarls at the TV screen, "Well, good for you, SLUT!" I was really taken aback.

These glimpses into certain minds remind me that true hatred is directed at attractive women, by some.

Thank god I'm not one of them. Imagine having all that hate in your heart.

 

[Jambalaya]

I don't mean to go off-topic, it's just that a responder wondered aloud what a woman's looks have to do with the situation we were discussing, and I'm just saying/demonstrating that women's looks are often a target of negativity.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Jambalaya, I never wanted to marry for money. I knew I could never compete with the serious gold digger chicks. My plan was to find the promising financial graduate, stay by his side while he was building his fast track career, encourage his long hours for that big project, wait until he had a heart attack and died by 30, inherit all the money and life insurance Much less competition before they hit it big.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Jambalaya, I never wanted to marry for money. I knew I could never compete with the serious gold digger chicks. My plan was to find the promising financial graduate, stay by his side while he was building his fast track career, encourage his long hours for that big project, wait until he had a heart attack and died by 30, inherit all the money and life insurance Much less competition before they hit it big.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jambalaya, I never wanted to marry for money. I knew I could never compete with the serious gold digger chicks. My plan was to find the promising financial graduate, stay by his side while he was building his fast track career, encourage his long hours for that big project, wait until he had a heart attack and died by 30, inherit all the money and life insurance Much less competition before they hit it big.

Hahahaaaaa!

Strategy - I like it!

 

[CRYSTAL24K]

Sorry that happened to you! She sounds like a rude human being with regard only for herself. The regulars at the bar that you went to are rude also.

The best place to play pool IMO is a pool hall rather than a bar with pool tables. I used to go to some pretty nice and pretty decent pool halls in NYC when I lived there years ago. I enjoy playing (some days I am a great player and other days not so much), but found it hard to play without distraction unless I was at a place where everyone was there for the same purpose.

For the record some men suck too. I was tired of getting ogled and hit on when I was just trying to make a shot or watch a game thus began my search for a place that my friends and I could go to and play in peace.

Some women (like the one you ran into) get off on being an object but I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Polished]

I think people can be doing the same activity, in this case playing pool and each person has different motivations for playing and some are taking it more seriously than others. An old lady I know loved playing tennis when she was younger and she was good at it. She said the group she played with would drive her around the bend sometimes. They would fetch a ball and rather than resume play, they would meet at the net and start to discuss a movie (she wasn't into movies at all). They were there for the social contact more than for the tennis. How many of your fellow pool players cared that much about the game? Some of them might have preferred the loose contact the woman provided and at some level she knew that and it gave her the freedom to float around as she wanted. No wonder she was annoyed with you for not buying into the unspoken "rules".

 

[kenny]

I don't mean to go off-topic, it's just that a responder wondered aloud what a woman's looks have to do with the situation we were discussing, and I'm just saying/demonstrating that women's looks are often a target of negativity.

Hellooooo.
Let's not be naive.

Many, perhaps most, men tolerate more crap from women who are more attractive.
That's not how it should be, just how it is.
Sure, every person on the planet 'should' treat every other person on the planet equally.
Sexual attraction should be suppressed and invisible and have no effect whatsoever on human relations.
Men should not even notice the differences between the appearance of various women.
Heck, Congress should pass a law that men have to not even pay attention to gender.
Men should be required to date as many men as women.
Uhm ... good luck with all Dat!

Every man on who chalked his name onto the waiting list to play pool said nothing when Carmen (yes, her real name) showed up 20 minutes late nor when she took a break to chat with her friends at the bar instead of taking her turn playing IN THE MIDDLE OF HER GAME.
Earlier, when a man was AWOL, his name was circled and the next player played immediately.

The more attractive a woman is the more men melt like butter around her.
Looks matter.
They shouldn't, but they do.

 

[aljdewey]

Every man on who chalked his name onto the waiting list to play pool said nothing when she showed up 20 minutes late nor when she took a break to chat with her friends at the bar instead of taking her turn playing IN THE MIDDLE OF HER GAME.
Earlier, when a man was AWOL, his name was circled and the next player played immediately.

So it's somehow her fault that the men chose to say nothing to her? It's her fault that they didn't act in her absence? Strongly disagree with that......they are responsible for their own actions, and for that matter, so are you.

Trust me, I get the annoyance - I play pool at a very serious level, so I completely empathize with your frustration. However, the choices of the men on the waiting list were their own...just as your choice to 'go with the flow because you're in a bar' is your choice, not theirs and not hers.

It' s also kind of comical that you assume this happened because of gender. If all the other guys noted "Carmen will get pissed", that suggests to me that they know her and likely know of her relationship to the owner. That could have as easily been the reason for their reluctance to upset her, no?

I'd love to better understand why you're mocking that her real name is Carmen. Is there some judgment attached to that on your part?

 

[lambskin]

One word sums it up, she's a barfly.

 

[lyra]

Seems like this is also a case of some men just suck. It was a woman who held up the play because the men around her refused to follow the rules. If it weren't for them, her named could have been circled and you could have played. Just saying there's two ways of looking at this. You have people who are some rate of intoxicated not adhering to the "rules" for whatever reason. The woman was also intoxicated. Either way, they were all in the wrong, but it's a bar, not a pool hall. Maybe you can find a place where there are more tables and less obnoxious patrons.

 

[HollyS]

Obviously, this gal was using her "assets" to get away with really uncool behavior.
Just as obviously, the men were letting her.
Perhaps they all imagined they would be seeing much more of her assets . . . later. You know what I mean.
As a gay man, you just happen to be immune to her charms while other guys think with their youknowwhats.

It seems she's a fixture at that bar. I'd go elsewhere to play pool. 'Cause that's a battle you won't win, there.

 

[lknvrb4]

This type of behavior by woman does not work for me either. I honestly prefer to hang out with men because then I do not have to deal with girl drama.

That would annoy me too Kenny. That woman's behavior and that of her acquaintances are unacceptable and does suck. Sorry your evening and pool playing was affected by her ill behavior.

lknvrb4, I don't have that experience with my women friends. I don't have a preference men vs women when it comes to friends. It's the individual I either love and respect or don't and I also don't agree with the generalization that (most) women behave like this with "girl" drama. I guess it is the company you choose to keep regarding friends and my friends (men and women) keep the drama and rude and selfish behavior to a minimum thankfully.

Well said. Avoiding women because of "girl drama" is silly. If you can't get along with an entire gender, you might be the common denominator. I have so many awesome friendships with the women in my life. They are carefully selected for awesomeness.

I never said I "avoid women" and I never said "I can't get along" with women. I just said that I "prefer" to hang out with men. I have plenty of friends that are women that I love and respect. Please don't put words in my mouth, I was just stating my opinion like everyone else on here and I can be respectful of others opinions without making things up.

 

[OreoRosies86]

This type of behavior by woman does not work for me either. I honestly prefer to hang out with men because then I do not have to deal with girl drama.

That would annoy me too Kenny. That woman's behavior and that of her acquaintances are unacceptable and does suck. Sorry your evening and pool playing was affected by her ill behavior.

lknvrb4, I don't have that experience with my women friends. I don't have a preference men vs women when it comes to friends. It's the individual I either love and respect or don't and I also don't agree with the generalization that (most) women behave like this with "girl" drama. I guess it is the company you choose to keep regarding friends and my friends (men and women) keep the drama and rude and selfish behavior to a minimum thankfully.

Well said. Avoiding women because of "girl drama" is silly. If you can't get along with an entire gender, you might be the common denominator. I have so many awesome friendships with the women in my life. They are carefully selected for awesomeness.

I never said I "avoid women" and I never said "I can't get along" with women. I just said that I "prefer" to hang out with men. I have plenty of friends that are women that I love and respect. Please don't put words in my mouth, I was just stating my opinion like everyone else on here and I can be respectful of others opinions without making things up.

I actually wasn't directly addressing your comment, but more the general mentality I often see of women avoiding other women because of "catiness and drama", and I thought Missy's comment was well stated. If you had asked me to clarify my comments, or explained further instead of assuming I was just another woman starting drama, we could be having a pleasant dialogue right now in which we both learned something and walked away a bit wiser for next time. I see a lot if this with younger women in particular who feel they have to put up a confrontational "Don't start with me" front when in the company of other women, or say things like "I prefer my guy friends, girls are soooo much drama." I resent it a little as a fellow woman, because I feel we should always be working towards a goal of building each other up instead of inventing ways to tear each other down.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Kenny,

I think this probably is a combination of a few factors. I think the most important is territorial. She belongs there, you are the interloper. You know how some on this forum think they can rude to people because they will be gone soon. I think that is similar.

I do agree that looks matter with men. In fact, a study within the last yr or two shows that something physiological does happen in a mans brain when he sees a beautiful woman(pretty), and he becomes addled . The male is hard wired. No doubt that does have something to do with their behavior.

I do have a question? If the owner was there, why not direct your complaint to her. I know its uncomfortable, but shes the top guy.


Annette

 

[kenny]

If the owner was there, why not direct your complaint to her. I know its uncomfortable, but shes the top guy.

Good question, it makes me think.

A complaint to the owner might do some good if it was about many other things.
Since this complaint relates to the most powerful force in the known universe, sex, it would be futile.

Straight men giving attractive women a pass on bad behavior is not within my, or the owner's, power to change.
The vast majority of her customers are in that system.

The perspective and money of one guy (who isn't in this system [aka subject to Camen's charms]) wouldn't, and shouldn't, matter to her.
I wouldn't be surprised if she laugh me out of her bar.
I'm sure the men in the bar would have a field day with the story about the clueless guy with the unbelievable complaint.

 

[kenny]

Just wanna add that while the title of this thread (even with its two caveats, sometimes and some) could be seen as picking on one gender especially if you are overly sensitive and jonesing to be offended, my posts in this thread are more critical the behavior of men, as a group, than of women.

A tiny minority of women are guilty of above complaints, while zillions of men are guilty of above complaints.

 

[sonnyjane]

It seems she's a fixture at that bar. I'd go elsewhere to play pool. 'Cause that's a battle you won't win, there.

This is actually what I wanted to point out. It seems like you chose to go to a place where this woman was a regular (friends with the owner, everyone knows her name, etc.). I think the same thing would have happened regardless of sex. I have a bar where I am a regular. I know the owners/bartenders. We have our regular "crew" (like on Cheers, ha!) and anytime a stranger comes into the bar and starts making a racket, arguing with regulars, etc., the owners almost always have the back of the regulars (unless they are really in the wrong). They'll kick out newcomers if they are disrupting the balance. Fair or not, the regular customers are the ones that come in frequently and pay the bills compared to someone that's just passing through.

I'd suggest you just not go back to that spot. I think this has very little to do with the fact that she's a woman and more to do with the fact that she's a regular and everyone knows her.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,


I don't think that your job was to tell the boss about what you perceived as the cause of the bad behavior, both from the men and women. Now Kenny, aren't you a facts guy. That is all you should have discussed.

a. I waited on the list for 1 hour.
b. When Ms. X's name came up, your customers wouldn't allow me to circle my name and move forward when Ms.X was not present.
I had to wait 20 minutes because she was in the parking lot.
.c I waited until her game was over and we began playing and now she disappears from the table to come to the bar.

I would have said(maybe) Can I ask, what is going here?

If someone did this to you in a restaurant, you would have complained. You would not analyze why the maitre
d took other customers before you.

Maybe, you won't get satisfaction. But maybe a free beer, and the possibility of the owner saying to her friend gently, that she ought not do that again. We never really know what the long term effects of anything we do are. Sometimes it is best to say nothing.

Annette

 

[momhappy]

I agree with the post by Polished. Not everyone shares the same "passion" for pool. Lots of bars have pool tables, but not everyone who plays pool is aware of pool rules, etiquette, etc. and many bars may not even have rules when it comes to playing pool. I've played pool in a bar before and I know VERY little about (beyond the basics). If someone takes the game more seriously, that's fine, but I think that it's important to take into consideration that not everyone who plays pool, actually cares about the game. I suppose if someone is truly passionate about playing pool, you'd probably be better off going to some sort of pool hall where others share the same attitude about the game.

 

[monarch64]

Hmm. I think if I wanted to just play pool that bad, I would've gone to a different bar as soon as I figured out that the woman was going to take her sweet time and the other patrons were going to back her up. Doesn't sound like a very fun time.

And just so you know, women are acutely aware of the kinds of comments men make about them, whether they are within earshot or not.

 

[sonnyjane]

Hmm. I think if I wanted to just play pool that bad, I would've gone to a different bar as soon as I figured out that the woman was going to take her sweet time and the other patrons were going to back her up. Doesn't sound like a very fun time.

If the primary reason I was going out was to play pool, I would have left after I saw the board and realized the wait was going to be an hour or more!

 

[monarch64]

Hmm. I think if I wanted to just play pool that bad, I would've gone to a different bar as soon as I figured out that the woman was going to take her sweet time and the other patrons were going to back her up. Doesn't sound like a very fun time.

If the primary reason I was going out was to play pool, I would have left after I saw the board and realized the wait was going to be an hour or more!

Right! I missed that part!