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B&M Experience - Engagement Ring

simplesimon

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
46
First time posting and I wanted to write it all down while its fresh in my memory. I’ve been doing some (a lot) of reading on this forum learning about diamonds as I plan to propose in a couple of months. What I still needed to do was see diamonds of various sizes, colors, and clarities to get an idea of what level of quality for each category I’d be comfortable with.

My girlfriend’s best friend got married this year and got her ring at this local family owned outfit in downtown. When I mentioned I was looking at vendors online, she was horrified. She suggested I check out the place where her ring came from, so I went tonight after work and I invited her to join me.

I explained to the sales associate what I wanted to look at a variety of diamonds - sizes, colors, clarities - with the best cuts they had. I sat down in the room and she showed me four diamonds (pictured below).

b_m_1.jpg

I did feel like this gave me a much better idea of what these categories look like next to each other. I noticed she wasn’t writing down the cuts for each diamond. She said the best cut they carry is Excellent, but when I asked for them individually, one was excellent and one was very good. I don’t even remember which was which now. I gave up asking after that. The leftmost diamond labeled “FM” and the rightmost diamond are De Beers Forevermark diamonds. She showed me on her magnifying machine that the Forevermark logo is indeed etched into the diamond. I asked her what certification these diamonds have and she said they’re De Beers certified and since De Beers is the main supplier of diamonds, they’re more credible than GIA and AGS. She brought out some settings for me, also pictured above. When I mentioned that I’ve been looking at stuff online, she scoffed and said that online sellers get the diamonds that fine jewelers like themselves don’t want anymore. The best friend nodded in agreement. At the end, I asked if I could get a copy of the GIA certs that DID come with the non-FM diamonds and she said she’ll write down the specs for me on the back of her business card. She wrote down the specs and prices of the FM diamonds on the card (pictured below, I apologize about the picture being sideways).

b_m_2.jpg

Afterwards the best friend and I chatted a bit. She gave me a little talk about how it’s so important to be able to see the diamonds for myself and that there’s too much uncertainty with online purchases.

The End.

I might’ve forgotten some minor details here and there which may come to me later on but that was the gist of it. I feel just a little bit of pressure about her friend thinking I’m cheaping out by going online, when in reality I’ll probably spend about the same amount for presumably better quality. I guess it doesn’t matter what she thinks.
 

heididdl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
2,928
I have a different example I am looking for jackets for my 2.40 studs . I am going to get them at IDJ when I get a chance. I wanted to try on different jackets so i went to the highly regarded local jeweler. First off IDJ sells the .90 tcw for approximatelhy 1,000 and uses g color vs1 melee stones. When I asked for jackets the sales girl had one pair .25 and said I could also look at the catalogue. When I showed her the photo from IDJ she said oh those must be hand made we dont have that in the cataloue. Then she said she could make them. I told her my 1,000 price range and she literarily laughed saying we only use fine white diamonds and that is very cheap. that the catalogue ones are .25 tcw were $1,000. I just IDJ I have seen there jackets I can buy them right now ready made on their web sight These brick and morter sales people are told one thing. They do not really understand the diamond buisiness or that ideal cut diamonds make the sparkle. SSory about your girls best friend. but do yourself a favor and listen to the women who have bought magnificent stones here ...take their advice.
 

texaskj

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
1,197
Unless the best friend is getting out her checkbook or credit card and paying for the ring, I'd quit listening to her.
Run, do not walk, away from this store.
 

AprilBaby

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 17, 2008
Messages
13,234
So online dealers get the leftovers that she doesn't want??? Her choices don't look so hot.
 

Cricketcat

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
133
If I'm looking for a super ideal diamond, which by the way, is the only kind I will purchase, buying online with a handful of vendors to select from is the only way I will go. I live in a somewhat sizeable city, but I can't even imagine the time it would take to find what I'm looking for in a diamond in a Brick and Mortar store. A few months ago I was looking for a new setting for my Brian Gavin signature diamond. I went into a B&M store and was looking at their settings, the gal asked me about my diamond, when she found out it was a J color, she gasped loudly at the thought of a J color diamond. I wish I had had the diamond with me. I had left it home. She then showed me some of the diamonds they had in the same size diamond I owned hoping I think that I would buy one of their diamonds. There was absolutely no comparison. The diamonds I was shown didn't hold a candle to my Brian Gavin J in more ways than one. Besides the obvious cut factor, my Brian Gavin looked to be much bigger than their same carat weight stones.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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May 11, 2012
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9,786
People who work in bricks and mortar stores are paid to achieve sales targets, none of us are paid to give you free advice. I live in Australia and have purchased items from the other side of the world from a number of the recommended vendors here and I have always gotten better deals and nicer items than I could have in bricks and mortar stores.

Most of the online vendors we recommend do have bricks and mortar stores as well. Forever Mark stones are usually fairly pricey and not always super Ideal cuts. You need to be able to run any diamond you are considering through the HCA which we use as a rejection tool you will find in the toolbar up the top under "tools" to help us reject stones that are not well cut. The better cut the diamond the better edge to edge brightness (so the bigger it will face up) and better overall fire it will have. The lower the HCA the better the cut - here is one with a great HCA of 1.0 that I believe fits into your search category and I have dealt with the vendor (from the other side of the world without hassle) 1.234 E SI1;

https://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/4r265h

And another HCA 1.4;

https://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/m0edye

Or if they are not suitable tell everyone your budget, size and colour preference and we will suggest stones for you.
 

simplesimon

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
46
The visit was more informational than anything. Based on what I've read here, I was set on an online purchase anyways but needed to see how different qualities compared next to each other. I'm looking for something in the 1.1-1.25ct SI1-SI2 category. I haven't decided on color but it appeared to me that H or I would be sufficient. I've been checking prices by the vendors recommended by PS daily to see what's available. It looks like I'll be paying around $7-9k.

I know my girlfriend wants a setting with shoulder stones in a channel setting. The sales lady said that that's a more contemporary setting with pave being more traditional. The best friend said yes that I'll probably want shoulder stones not set in a channel so that light can come in from the sides and make the stones look more brilliant. Is this true?

I'm looking at something like this:

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/diamond-settings/cathedral-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-138.htm
 

RetroTreeGal

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
393
That's not actually a channel setting. It's a pave set ring with large sides that mimic a channel setting. I think it's a nice choice for a size 7, since it won't look like a thread across her finger. (I wear 6.25 and I love a slightly wider shank.) The only thing to watch out with that setting is getting a stone large enough to not get "swallowed up."

ETA: Although I see you're shopping in the 1.1-1.2 range, so you should be fine.
 

simplesimon

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
46
B&M Experience Part 2

I went to a different store and this time the experience was much more pleasant. I felt like the sales lady was more open and honest about meeting my needs. I told her I wasn't interested in buying today, and she said it was no problem and that the staff does not work on commissions. I said I wanted to see their best cut diamonds and she acknowledged that this was very critical and asked me if I was an engineer!

I came in thinking to conduct a similar experiment to compare qualities of the C's. She showed me two GIA XXX diamonds, a ~1.25ct I SI1 and a ~1.25ct H VS2. They both looked fantastic. When I looked at them from the top I couldn't really tell a color difference but I could tell when it was upside down on a white background, as one might expect. I was able to catch the inclusion in the SI1 stone, but only when it was upside down. I couldn't really pinpoint where it was looking at it from the top.

She said she had some Lazare Kaplan diamonds as well, which would meet my Cut requirements, but that they would likely be outside of my budget. I was hoping to see some good or very good cut diamonds to compare to the two GIA XXX ones, but she said they did not have any at that time. The diamonds still come out to about $500 more than I would pay for on WF/BGD/GOG, not counting sales tax, but I feel a lot better now knowing that there's at least one store where it doesn't feel like I'm dealing with a used car salesman and I almost feel guilty that I probably won't be buying from them.

She did mention one thing about online vs B&M: There is a characteristic that isn't graded and that is the graininess of the diamond. That a certificate won't tell you if the diamond looks cloudy or something that can affect performance. I don't remember if graininess was the exact word but it was something to that effect.
 

SparklySoprano

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
661
Wonderful diary of your experiences. I often feel quite belittled at a B&M jewelry store. It's quite similar to how I feel about buying a car at the dealership. So, the last car I bought, I did all the negotiating online and then simply went in, test drove, and purchased. It was soooo smooth and I didn't have to hear about how the dealer has to keep his lights on somehow! :cheeky:

My suggestion is to check out the online vendor's return/exchange policy. It seems that most of them are quite fine with either as long as it's within a reasonable time frame. Then you can check it out. There is a really good outline of what to consider when buying a diamond (online?) somewhere on PS. I don't have the link handy, but if you do a search you should be able to find it readily.

Good luck and keep us posted!
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
27,202
simplesimon|1418509044|3800701 said:
B&M Experience Part 2

I went to a different store and this time the experience was much more pleasant. I felt like the sales lady was more open and honest about meeting my needs. I told her I wasn't interested in buying today, and she said it was no problem and that the staff does not work on commissions. I said I wanted to see their best cut diamonds and she acknowledged that this was very critical and asked me if I was an engineer!

I came in thinking to conduct a similar experiment to compare qualities of the C's. She showed me two GIA XXX diamonds, a ~1.25ct I SI1 and a ~1.25ct H VS2. They both looked fantastic. When I looked at them from the top I couldn't really tell a color difference but I could tell when it was upside down on a white background, as one might expect. I was able to catch the inclusion in the SI1 stone, but only when it was upside down. I couldn't really pinpoint where it was looking at it from the top.

She said she had some Lazare Kaplan diamonds as well, which would meet my Cut requirements, but that they would likely be outside of my budget. I was hoping to see some good or very good cut diamonds to compare to the two GIA XXX ones, but she said they did not have any at that time. The diamonds still come out to about $500 more than I would pay for on WF/BGD/GOG, not counting sales tax, but I feel a lot better now knowing that there's at least one store where it doesn't feel like I'm dealing with a used car salesman and I almost feel guilty that I probably won't be buying from them.

She did mention one thing about online vs B&M: There is a characteristic that isn't graded and that is the graininess of the diamond. That a certificate won't tell you if the diamond looks cloudy or something that can affect performance. I don't remember if graininess was the exact word but it was something to that effect.

The lab report will tell you if the grade is based on clouds not shown...else the clouds are shown on the clarity plot. I don't know
what she is talking about graininess. That would affect the clarity grade I would think.
 

EC4me

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
80
My GIA certificate lists surface graining and internal graining under comments. It is a VVS2 with excellent polish so it didn't worry me too much but, when I bought it, the diamond was checked for any ill effects from the graining before it was sent to me. HTH!
 

baby monster

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 2, 2007
Messages
3,631
I've seen internal graining and clouds listed in the comments section of certs so that's not entirely accurate. However, there is a benefit of seeing SI1-2 stones with your eyes to make sure you're comfortable with the inclusions. If you feel that the second place was much better and can bring in excellent cut stones for you to see, why not give them a chance? Some B&M places are very decent and understand they need to compete with online sellers. The few hundred dollar difference vs online can be negotiated if they want your business. And you'll also have a local place to check the prongs,
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
I remember there being a website up saying about Internet dealers only sold highly grained diamonds (no mention about clouds though). I also remember it said that Tiffany selected the first stones from debeers mines and they rejected the ones with graining and wanted better quality more clear stones. I asked this in an old post and Paul Slegers from Infinity said that it was true that Tiffany and bigger diamond houses got first choice from the mines but the reason they did not use the less than perfect stones was because they did not know what to do with them, and how to cut them. I remember another diamond expert writing that Tiffany diamond cutters were very talented and he could not see that they would not know what to do. I cannot remember where I found that article on the internet.

Maybe this just refers to diamonds at the VVS1 and VVS2 level though where graining would matter most because in lower clarities if the grain was so bad it would be listed I would think.
 

1stTimeRockHunter

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
36
simplesimon|1418353326|3799845 said:
Afterwards the best friend and I chatted a bit. She gave me a little talk about how it’s so important to be able to see the diamonds for myself and that there’s too much uncertainty with online purchases.

She is right in that there is uncertainty with purchasing a diamond online. That uncertainty can be put to rest with the tools we have (HCA, IS, ect)

Don't let anyone steer you away from purchasing online. They will be amazed by the quality stone you get. If for any reason you aren't happy, you have a return window (usually at least 30 days with many merchants) to return the ring. Keep doing your research and run any possible diamonds by the experts here, they are a ton of help.
 

Travelgal

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
332
I think with anything we don't buy regularly and are big ticket items, there is the opportunity to be misguided or misinformed (either intentionally or unintentionally). One of the challenges as a buyer is to be informed and to be able to ask the right questions. I shop both on the Internet and in B&M shops. Personally I love to touch and feel- I will literally try on an entire case when I go shopping- I just love jewelers so I can't help myself.

That said, I went into 2 local jewelers yesterday and had 2 very different experiences. They both have been in business for 40+ years, they both cater to a fairly established neighborhood, both sale new and estate pieces, and certify all of their diamonds (and some of their colored stones).

Store #1- The sales person that helped me was actually the founder of the store (his son now runs it), had cracked hands from working on the bench (he does repairs and settings). I asked about a vintage line bracelet with OEC and french cut sapphires. When I mentioned the cut of the stones his eyes perked up. Then I asked about a stunning vintage broach. As we were chatting, he said "you really know your jewelry." He went in the back and started pulling vintage pieces that he didn't have in inventory yet. He really enjoyed having someone in his store who loved jewelry and shared his passion (as you can imagine he was very knowledgeable). I would without a question buy from his store. I love supporting local businesses and he gives B&M stores a great name. Maybe 5-10% higher on price than online retailers, but nothing that would send me running away.

Store #2- The salesperson that greeted me was wearing a suit and a big fancy diamond encrusted Rolex. I asked to see a couple of rings and he asked me if I was getting engaged (I wasn't wearing any jewelry). I said no, I already was but that I love jewelry and that I am always on the hunt for cool pieces. He asked me why I wasn't wearing my ring (because it's soaking in jewelry cleaner at home). At that point he literally wanted nothing to do with me. I had to flag him down (literally a 600 sqft store with no other customers shopping) to ask him about a pink sapphire and an estate watch. He asked me why I didn't bring my husband in to shop with me. It was odd. I don't know if he was uniformed and intimidated by me asking questions or if he thought I needed my husband to buy jewelry, but it was a terrible experience that I will not repeat again.

So like the car dealership example above, I think all B&M shops should be considered on their own merit. They likely won't stock the type of inventory you can find online, but I have found that if you call them in advance and give them a week to bring in stones, they will gladly have 4-6 stones that meet your criteria. And like online stores (not all are created equal), you can filter out the "bad" ones that say "oh just come in we have a great selection." Yes, they might be 5-10% above what you pay online but that's the cost of having a store front and being able to test drive jewelry in person. Ultimately we interview people for jobs, before we commit to a spouse (dating), we test drive cars... Ultimately we have to determine what is "right" for us. Anyone that doesn't date/test drive/interview and makes a decision on the first person or thing they see is often not going to make a very good/informed decision.
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Oct 11, 2011
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6,131
Travelgal|1418590637|3801102 said:
He asked me why I didn't bring my husband in to shop with me. It was odd. I don't know if he was uniformed and intimidated by me asking questions or if he thought I needed my husband to buy jewelry, but it was a terrible experience that I will not repeat again.

This happens at SO MANY jewelry stores. If I'm alone - no attention. If I bring my husband, they pay attention to him and show him all the stuff and tell him all the things and he's like, "?????? I am not the one who knows about jewelry things, talk to her!" And then they do the thing where they write the price on a piece of paper or calculator and show it to him where I can't see it, which I always find to be suuuuuuuper condescending. And the salesperson is always shocked when he just turns right to me and tells me the price. I mean, my husband knows more about jewelry than the average person, thanks to being married to me, but I'm still the one who can judge whether the price is reasonable or not! I have a very long list of "stores not to shop at" thanks to that happening, lol.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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2,859
Pyramid|1418571358|3800928 said:
I remember there being a website up saying about Internet dealers only sold highly grained diamonds (no mention about clouds though). I also remember it said that Tiffany selected the first stones from debeers mines and they rejected the ones with graining and wanted better quality more clear stones. I asked this in an old post and Paul Slegers from Infinity said that it was true that Tiffany and bigger diamond houses got first choice from the mines but the reason they did not use the less than perfect stones was because they did not know what to do with them, and how to cut them. I remember another diamond expert writing that Tiffany diamond cutters were very talented and he could not see that they would not know what to do. I cannot remember where I found that article on the internet.

Maybe this just refers to diamonds at the VVS1 and VVS2 level though where graining would matter most because in lower clarities if the grain was so bad it would be listed I would think.

Seeing my name mentioned, I have to say that I am not correctly quoted here. At least out of context.

For sure, I disagree completely with the comment of that sales-associate.

Live long,
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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2,859
A bit more time to explain what I may have said and what was misunderstood.

- Tiffany's indeed has some priority-arrangements with a few smaller mines, more specifically for fancy colors.
- If you look at the bigger miner/producers, they indeed all have a series of prefered customers. You could say that they have first pick, but they are also mass-producers and in the volume that they sell, they do not take the time to isolate so-called 'better' options. Not that they exist with regards to graining.
- We have in the past indeed bought rejection-rough so-to-speak of Tiffany's. That was interesting, because the decision to yes or not cut a rough stone at Tiffany's lays with the cutters, where it usually is with the owners. The cutters of Tiffany's clearly avoid rough that requires a bit more attention, or which carries the risk of not coming out as predicted. Human nature, I guess. For that reason, such rough used to be very interesting for us, especially as other potential buyers were distracted by the non-complete assortment-nature of such parcels.

Hope this clarifies my posts.

Live long,
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks Paul-Antwerp. Yes, sorry I probably was quoting out of context as I was just writing from memory and it was years ago now and I maybe even interpreted wrongly what you wrote in any case.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,345
I wouldn't work with that particular jewler. Sounds uninformed.

My favorite local jewler acknowledges that my online purchases are great quality. He builds his business on customer service and offering a more hands on experience. There is value in that.

Bottom line is I've compared mele in my Brian Gavin earrings to pieces in several stores and nothing has come even close. Definitely not the junk that others reject.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
4,607
chemgirl

We were talking about rough diamonds before they are cut being rejected for things like grain. Meaning did they get perfect crystals which were better than all other diamonds bought in the world. Graining is usually graded as VVS1, VVS2 in those cases. Graining at VS1 or VS2 would be reported on the GIA report.
 
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