Don't send your daughters to The Rape School, UVA

[perry]

One of the reasons I so rarely post anymore is because it seems in recent years on PS that there has been a substantial increase of people assuming that some story in the press is absolutely true and that it presents all information on the case. To question that on this forum - and to point out that all facts are not known - and that people (and organizations) have rights can only typically now be done with the understanding that a number of people on this forum will seriously object citing a variety of reasons.

So, here we go again. The press story was not quite so true. Who knows how much of a fabrication. Yet the University and others have been dragged through the mud.

I ask everyone to review what their previous conclusions were (clearly stated in this thread) and ask why do we all jump to conclusions so soon. Why was this thread even started. There are people who want to believe the worst in everyone and everything. Yet that is often not true. That is not to say that there are not bad people and that bad things do not happen.

I have twice been falsely accused. Having lived through that I am really skeptical about any "he" or "she" said story without solid evidence and solid corroborating witnesses.

The fact is that many people lie. So why do we assume that stories are automatically true?

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[kenny]

The entire world is talking about this very shocking and very important allegation.
PS Hangout is a discussion forum.
So, it follows that ... oh never mind.

We don't know how much, if any, of Jackie's claims are true.
Perhaps time will tell.

Even if nothing happened to Jackie and RS was taken for a ride, the topic of rape on campus deserves attention.
The result of all this attention is positive change at schools, regardless of the accuracy of RS's story.

Of course, and unfortunately, RS's irresponsible 'journalism' has nourished the A-hole cavemen who think "You just can't believe anything them crazy bitches say."

Discussions are good, not bad ... sunlight, and all that.

But if you don't like a thread, you don't have to bump it up by posting in it.

 

[AGBF]

Calliecake-

I just read the account of your rape and brutalization. I think it is one of the most terrifying real life accounts I have ever heard and I am so sorry that you had to live it.

I had not planned on sharing this story, but I will. It is really not mine,but I played a part in it. Back in the 1970's before either of us was married one of my best friends and I both lived in "The East Village" in New York City. It was really The Lower East Side and a very "bad" neighborhood. We had both been-I still was a graduate student-at NYU. We lived only a block apart, but I lived in a brownstone with a roommate. There were steps leading up to the entrance and no courtyard. My roommate's boyfriend (soon to be husband) was just out of the marines and back from Vietnam. Two of his friend, also former marines, spent a lot of time in our apartment drinking huge quantities of beer and one of them marching when he got anxious (but I digress).

My Friend, E., who lived a block away, lived in a walk-up with a courtyard behind it. She lived alone.

After a dinner/ get together at my apartmnt one night she walked home one block and called me. She had been accosted on the street in front of her apartment by a man with a knife. He held it to her throat and forced her into the courtyard behind the building. On her coat-which I remember was camel hair-he raped and sodomized her. I remember she told the police he had been kissing her during the rape, which they said was"unusual". I ran over there with one of the marines, Tim, and found E. naked below the waist in her kitchen washing her camel hair coat. Since Tim was with me, my first impulse was to wrap the coat around her to cover her. But of course i didn't know the story. When I tried to put the coat around her she started to shriek, not wanting it to touch her.

We called the police. All three of us went in the ambulance to Bellevue Hospital. They did the entire rape thing. He was never caught.
She is a very happy woman now. Although she is on her second marriage, this one has lasted for over 30 years and she has a wonderful, loving husband; a great son and daughter-in-law; and a beautiful new granddaughter who is five months old. Her son was shocked, as an adult, to learn she had ever been raped. She lived through it. But it was truly awful.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Calliecake]

Deb,

Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad your friend also survived her ordeal and had you to help her thru the months the followed. Trust me when I say she appreciates you more than you could ever know. I will never forget how my friends and co workers rallied around and protected me during the months that followed. I worked with mostly men at the time and was pretty upset with a close friend for telling everyone in the office before I went back to work. She said I could be upset with her but the men I worked with had set up a meeting with a rape crisis center employee for later day. She said she walked in the meeting room and there were about 30 of them talking to a rape couselor on speaker phone. She said they were taking notes on the things they could do to help me. I will never forget the kindness I was shown during that awful time. My friend who had told everyone is still one of my closest friends and I would do anything for her.

Callie

 

[AGBF]

I will never forget how my friends and co workers rallied around and protected me during the months that followed. I worked with mostly men at the time and was pretty upset with a close friend for telling everyone in the office before I went back to work. She said I could be upset with her but the men I worked with had set up a meeting with a rape crisis center employee for later day. She said she walked in the meeting room and there were about 30 of them talking to a rape couselor on speaker phone. She said they were taking notes on the things they could do to help me. I will never forget the kindness I was shown during that awful time.

It is wonderful that your female friend organized this support for you at your place of work, Callie. It did take nerve on her part to invite men into your story without asking you and it was brave of her to intervene on your behalf for your welfare like that. I think that that is one of the most supportive stories I have ever heard. You faced the worst evil and were helped by the best good during your ordeal.

Major hugs,
Deb
(((Callie)))

 

[Calliecake]

The entire world is talking about this very shocking and very important allegation.
PS Hangout is a discussion forum.
So, it follows that ... oh never mind.

We don't know how much, if any, of Jackie's claims are true.
Perhaps time will tell.

Even if nothing happened to Jackie and RS was taken for a ride, the topic of rape on campus deserves attention.
The result of all this attention is positive change at schools, regardless of the accuracy of RS's story.

Of course, and unfortunately, RS's irresponsible 'journalism' has nourished the A-hole cavemen who think "You just can't believe anything them crazy bitches say."

Discussions are good, not bad ... sunlight, and all that.

But if you don't like a thread, you don't have to bump it up by posting in it.

+ 1,000,000. Thank you so much for the post above Kenny.

Perry, It's estimated that 60% of rapes go unreported. This is a topic that needs to be discussed. With so many sexual assaults happening on University campuses, this is a HUGE issue. i also feel if someone fabricates a story of rape they should be prosecuted and no one that has posted here has said anything to suggest otherwise Perry. I personally find the tone of your post upsetting. I am sure most woman and descent men will agree the number of rapes going unreported is a MUCH larger problem than women fabricating stories of rape. Rolling Stome was irresponsible in not fact checking checking their article. This story just made every rape victim going forward have yet another reason to be afraid she will not believed.

When I was raped the statue of limitations was 2'years in the state I lived in. The fact that someone can turn your entire world upside down and if they were not caught and prosecuted in 2 years they were completely free of facing criminal charges was extremely upsetting to me. Believe me when I say the after affects of being raped last a heck of a lot longer than 2 years.

 

[perry]

The entire world is talking about this very shocking and very important allegation.
PS Hangout is a discussion forum.
So, it follows that ... oh never mind.

We don't know how much, if any, of Jackie's claims are true.
Perhaps time will tell.

Even if nothing happened to Jackie and RS was taken for a ride, the topic of rape on campus deserves attention.
The result of all this attention is positive change at schools, regardless of the accuracy of RS's story.

Of course, and unfortunately, RS's irresponsible 'journalism' has nourished the A-hole cavemen who think "You just can't believe anything them crazy bitches say."

Discussions are good, not bad ... sunlight, and all that.

But if you don't like a thread, you don't have to bump it up by posting in it.

+ 1,000,000. Thank you so much for the post above Kenny.

Perry, It's estimated that 60% of rapes go unreported. This is a topic that needs to be discussed. With so many sexual assaults happening on University campuses, this is a HUGE issue. i also feel if someone fabricates a story of rape they should be prosecuted and no one that has posted here has said anything to suggest otherwise Perry. I personally find the tone of your post upsetting. I am sure most woman and descent men will agree the number of rapes going unreported is a MUCH larger problem than women fabricating stories of rape. Rolling Stome was irresponsible in not fact checking checking their article. This story just made every rape victim going forward have yet another reason to be afraid she will not believed.

When I was raped the statue of limitations was 2'years in the state I lived in. The fact that someone can turn your entire world upside down and if they were not caught and prosecuted in 2 years they were completely free of facing criminal charges was extremely upsetting to me. Believe me when I say the after affects of being raped last a heck of a lot longer than 2 years.

Kenny: Of course PS is a discussion forum - so don't get too upset when someone points out needless sensationalism.

The key issue that I see; is that currently many people jump on a bandwagon of blame based on what too many times turns out to be false acquisitions; then there never seems to be a reason to apologize in todays web society when it turns out the story was at least in part a fabrication (and the story gets worse the more that is known about it. I would never have ever consider Rolling Stone to be an reliable source for real news). If you had wanted to start a thread on Rape - you could have done just that - without slandering anyone. Those kinds of thread do in fact exist in the past of PS. Why is it necessary to claim something that turns out not necessarily to be true.

Calliecake: I am very sorry about you being raped. I know well the statistics and the effects (I have family affected). Yes the issue needs to be discussed. But it can be discussed without standing on false stories. The problems of false acquisitions also needs to be discussed as well.

Go back a most of a decade and there was a lot more immediate challenge and debate on such a title of this thread; and a lot less of people jumping on a bandwagon. As I stated in my post above. It is not popular on PS to challenge the bandwagon. Yet, it is the bandwagon effect that in my opinion has driven away a lot of good people on PS.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Maria D]

Perry I find your post bizarre. It sounds like you are chastising us for having a discussion (rather than joining or ignoring it - how patronizing!) and then claiming that this sort of thread drove away all the good people. Oh please.

The article may have featured one woman who may or may not have related a completely accurate or true event, but that's not all it was about, by far. One of the major issues is that UVA has allowed admitted rapists to remain on campus. You can hear Dean Eramo state as much in this interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqjrpWHIoyU

 

[kenny]

I am on many other fora.
In most of them the men and women almost without exception hold very different positions when it comes to reactions to women reporting being raped.
Though I'm a man I take the perspective that many women take on this topic.
This has upset some men (straight men only) on other fora too.

It's almost like many straight men love things that discredit a woman's claim of being raped.
It's almost a denial that their group really rapes.
They'd never admit that, but they post every snippet of every report that discredits Jackie with apparent glee.

It kind of reminds me of the OJ trial where opinion was very polarized and could be determined with near-certainty by which (unmentionable on PS) group people belonged to.

 

[momhappy]

I guess that I can appreciate Perry's point of view too and I see it as a valid part of this dialogue. We had a similar situation happen here a few years back - a group of young men were accused of rape and the accuser ended up recanting the whole story, but not before everyone had jumped on the bandwagon of blame and the damage was already done. I also know of an accused rape situation that involved a woman who used to be a friend of mine, but don't care to go into the details other than to say that again, she recanted, but not before the men involved were harshly judged/condemned/criticized.
I certainly don't take any glee in discrediting a woman's claim of rape and I take this topic very seriously, but unfortunately, these types of situations (sometimes) happen and they deserve to be a part of this discussion too IMO. As a woman, it's easy for me to "pick a side" and judge the accused, so I can appreciate the fact that this is a very sensitive subject and I'm glad to see the discussion as a whole.

 

[Jambalaya]

The story continues to develop. I saw the latest by googling "uva rape case" and hitting "news".

Jackie's father has been interviewed and says his daughter's account is true and that she got the fraternity name wrong because she had only been at the school for two weeks. Another friend has been interviewed, real name, and says that Jackie really did become increasingly withdrawn and depressed after the time period of the account. Apparently Jackie had mentioned the assault on a campus online forum, seemingly more than once, at some points between 2012 and now. Jackie herself is sticking strongly to her story.

Her friends say that she did indeed call them that night and was extremely distressed. All her friends say that are in no doubt that something bad happened to Jackie that night, but they weren't in the room so they don't know exactly what. The friends who helped her that night say that she told them multiple men had forced her to perform oral sex. I wonder if the Rolling Stone story is much closer to the truth and she was so ashamed and embarrassed that she couldn't bring herself to tell the truth at that point. It's quite possible that Jackie has not been able to speak of the full horror until now.

I know the frat house say they didn't host a function that night, but it wouldn't have to be a full formal function officially hosted by the fraternity. It could have been just a few frat boys throwing an informal get-together. And "Drew" wasn't a lifeguard but he was, apparently, a senior swimming coach.

If Jackie is still terrified of these men, and still living on campus, maybe she would want to fudge some details so the story isn't immediately recognizable to the perpetrators. Being so young and inexperienced, she probably never thought the story would become national headline news and maybe thought there was a slight chance of a perpetrator seeing the article, and wanted to just provide some extra safety for herself. (Extra safety in terms of fudging details such as the exact date, location of the attack and the details of the men, I mean, like maybe the guy she recognized wasn't in an anthropology class but a history class. I don't mean fudging details of the attack itself.) She might live in fear of reprisals, which probably seem all too possible when you've already been attacked once.

The real name of "Drew" is all over the internet. I don't agree with that at all - the guy is innocent until proven guilty and there are some real nutjobs out there. Imagine if he got beaten up or worse and he was innocent.

My opinion is that, for now, we cannot make any assumptions at all. We'll just have to wait and see what comes out.

 

[AGBF]

I read the letters in "The New York Times" this morning as I usually do. I particularly appreciated this one.

To the Editor:

The backpedaling on the Rolling Stone rape story should not raise doubts about the majority of rape complaints. It should cast extreme doubt upon our practice of publicly pronouncing people guilty the moment an accusation is made.

PETER LUSHING
New York, Dec. 6, 2014

The writer is a professor at Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law.

Deb/AGBF

 

[House Cat]

There is a very strong possibility that she got details wrong due to PTSD.

Extreme trauma will make details of the even fuzzy. It will superimpose the incorrect people into the event. If she dissociated at all, she will forget entire portions of time. Trauma and the brain's response to trauma is EXTREMELY complicated.

 

[House Cat]

False rape accusations or "unfounded" accusation make up between 2% to 8% of all accusations. While I agree that ANY false accusations are deplorable, they are not the norm. They are indeed the minority.

How about we not encourage people to jump on the bandwagon of victim blaming. I see that a LOT with rape cases. This is why 60% of rapes go unreported.

Rape is a huge issue in this nation. 1 in 4 women in college are sexually assaulted. This is not a statistic built on false accusations. This is our nation's truth.

 

[kenny]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/09/the-blogger-who-wants-to-take-down-rolling-stone-jackie-and-the-university-of-virginia-president/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z3

Wow.
Did you read about the scumbag who outed "Jackie"?
Jackie is a false name for the woman alleging gang rape at UVA.

Before blogging her real name he reportedly stated, "[She] has until midnight to tell the truth about making it up."
Reaction:
"The message immediately split followers into two groups: those who hated it and those who loved it. “You’re a modern Joan of Arc,” one admirer told Johnson on Sunday. “Doing God’s work even when the big names say you’re the devil.” Another called him “a real American hero.”"

This makes me so angry.
Watching the reaction to the UVA story really reveals ugly things about our society and how some men feel they have a right to use women's bodies.
It brings to mind this guy and his 'manifesto'?

I don't think revealing the real names of sexual assault victims is a crime, but it should be.

 

[Calliecake]

Publishing the real name of victims should be a decision made by the victim. At the time I chose for my name not to be in the paper. I have to admit I often wondered if that was the right chose. I think when a name is published it sends more of a message that this is a real person, who has a real life and has gone thru a terrible ordeal. I was not some nameless faceless thing.

I think many victims are terrified the rapist will retun if their name were is listed. Your entire sense of safety is gone for a long time afterward. It literally took years to feel safe again. You are traumatized.

House cat made so many excellent points in her post above.

Kenny, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm so glad up you wrote the sentence that this makes you so angry. I know I need to back away from this because the whole thing upsets me. I was sitting here feeling like a nut job because it bothers me so much. Reading your statement made feel it's okay to be angry about this whole situation.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jackie's real name has been exposed? Oh, that is just so awful. That poor woman. And as for the bullying coward that did it, I hope this proves to be the ruin of his so-called "career." He's so successful, apparently, that the only place he writes is his own website. I read that he went to an extremely expensive boarding school (like 40k per year) and then a private college with equally steep costs. All bills footed by doting parents, I imagine.

They must be so proud.

I wish fervently there was some statute under which he could be arrested.

 

[distracts]

We don't know how much, if any, of Jackie's claims are true.
Perhaps time will tell.

Even if nothing happened to Jackie and RS was taken for a ride, the topic of rape on campus deserves attention.
The result of all this attention is positive change at schools, regardless of the accuracy of RS's story.

Of course, and unfortunately, RS's irresponsible 'journalism' has nourished the A-hole cavemen who think "You just can't believe anything them crazy bitches say."

This is what frustrates me. It was the responsibility of the journalist and Rolling Stone to do their due diligence BEFORE publishing the story. But, sadly, that is what passes for journalism in many venues these days. (And Perry - RS usually has VERY GOOD investigative reporting, with more rigorous fact-checking than many publications. Many reporters who've written investigative reporting stories for RS have said they find the lack of fact-checking for this story very unusual for RS.)

Also, guys, false rape allegations are less than 2% of allegations made to police (which is similar to the overall rate of false accusations for other violent crimes - and I don't see anyone making a fuss about false claims of beating every time we hear about a beating on the news) - and many rapes if not most are never even reported to police. Men are more likely to be victims of rape than to be falsely accused of it. Is it a problem? Yes. Should we privilege THIS problem over the FAR MORE COMMON problem of ACTUAL RAPE? No. And part of the issue with the damage of false rape accusations compared to false accusations of other crimes is that it is clear that the justice system does not work properly for sexual violence, so the only place they are ever charged and found guilty in most cases is public opinion. If victims always went to the police afterwards, if rape kits were processed in a timely manner, if actual investigations were conducted, if we could trust that rapists would be prosecuted and convicted, then false accusations would actually be much less of a problem because people would believe the justice system over the accuser. But that doesn't happen currently, so, not knowing who to believe, many of us err on the side of the accuser because, hey, statistically that's a safe assumption. Also it makes you not look like a jerk.

 

[momhappy]

False rape accusations or "unfounded" accusation make up between 2% to 8% of all accusations. While I agree that ANY false accusations are deplorable, they are not the norm. They are indeed the minority.

How about we not encourage people to jump on the bandwagon of victim blaming. I see that a LOT with rape cases. This is why 60% of rapes go unreported.

Rape is a huge issue in this nation. 1 in 4 women in college are sexually assaulted. This is not a statistic built on false accusations. This is our nation's truth.

I agree with you - it's not okay to victim-blame, but likewise, it's not okay to automatically blame an accuser either. I don't agree with your 2-8% number because I don't believe that it's something that you can even put a number on - it's far too complicated (If I remember correctly, the 2% number came from a speech given by a judge and the statistical source was a specific area of NY and the 8% number is attributed to an FBI number). In short, I don't think that you can treat the percentage of reports that were found to be false as an actual percentage of reports that are actually false. Each case has to be looked at individually, fact by fact, and judged with the knowledge that men and women both lie sometimes (women sometimes lie for revenge, to cover up some problem in their own lives, to get attention, etc.) just as men might lie to cover up their crimes.