HAS POLICE TRAINING CAUSED VIOENCE

[smitcompton]

hI,

It seems we have more cases of possible excessive police violence in the news again. I wonder, how, in a group of police tackling a suspect, we need to kill the suspect with, in this instance, a chokehold.? In Cleveland, a 13 yr old was shot and killed.

Are the individual police so afraid of getting hurt of killed, they have become irrational in their fear?. Or, is the police Dept training making them more fearful than they ought to be?

Of course it can be a dangerous job, but somehow, the police seem to be more violent. I had a new stove installed last week. The installers were a father and son team of hispanic background. I asked where they lived, and as I was familiar with the area we spoke about what was happening there. He said crime was bad, but the police were worse. He was afraid of the police.(son about 25 yrs old).

In Chicago there are plans to disrupt traffic on Sunday morning. I don't see much good in that.

Annette

 

[telephone89]

Yes.

Police officers don't even make the list of the top 10 dangerous jobs in the USA, and police deaths are way down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fv92JZgQIg&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ
I found this very informative, gives alot of great numbers throughout.

 

[amc80]

DH is a deputy and I know what he would say- attitudes towards police have changed. He says he sees it a lot with the younger generations. There's less respect for authority in general (cops, teachers, parents, etc.). So when someone is being arrested, he will see the "you can't do anything to me no matter what I do" sort of attitude.

ETA- I'm not afraid of the police at all. Do you know why? Because I'm not breaking laws, nor am I hanging out with people who are breaking laws. Chances of me being arrested are right about zero.

 

[chrono]

If you look white or Caucasian, that's probably sufficient but I think those who do not look white or Caucasian runs the risk of racial profiling by the police force in some areas of the USA.

 

[telephone89]

DH is a deputy and I know what he would say- attitudes towards police have changed. He says he sees it a lot with the younger generations. There's less respect for authority in general (cops, teachers, parents, etc.). So when someone is being arrested, he will see the "you can't do anything to me no matter what I do" sort of attitude.

ETA- I'm not afraid of the police at all. Do you know why? Because I'm not breaking laws, nor am I hanging out with people who are breaking laws. Chances of me being arrested are right about zero.

I have always felt this way, until recently. I've never had any negative run ins with the cops (being a white female), until my car was stolen and crashed, left at a gas station near my house. I went looking for it in the morning (it was stolen around midnight) and found it, but the cops were already there. They were so, so rude to me, I was in shock. I literally walked up, knocked on their window and was like 'shit, that's my car'. They yelled at me, accused me of drunk driving, told me to take off my shirt so they could see if there were seatbelt marks, and wanted to examine my body for cuts. Someone who stole the car probably was drunk, and drove through a light pole and drug it under the car for 50-100m, so that person was probably in rough shape after. I obviously was not. I was so completely taken aback because I had always trusted them and never thought anything of it. I didn't, and still haven't broken the law, nor do I associate with people who do. I will literally never look at a police officer the same way.

They also tried to give me a $700 ticket for leaving the scene of an accident, which I got a lawyer and fought, and easily won. It was ridiculous.

Now, had I been a black male, I probably would have been arrested on the spot, so at least that didn't happen.

EDIT: sorry that was a bit of a tangent. This wasn't about violence, but I think police attitudes have also changed. They are no longer 'serving' and 'protecting', they are 'fighting crime', no matter how they do it, or what is actually considered a crime.

 

[distracts]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/26/a-sort-of-defense-of-south-carolina-state-trooper-sean-groubert/

This article has a lot on that very topic. I think it's a really interesting - and terrifying - read. The gist of it is that older cops think that the current training focuses more on how to get away with escalating violence than it does on how to de-escalate potentially violent situations.

 

[distracts]

DH is a deputy and I know what he would say- attitudes towards police have changed. He says he sees it a lot with the younger generations. There's less respect for authority in general (cops, teachers, parents, etc.). So when someone is being arrested, he will see the "you can't do anything to me no matter what I do" sort of attitude.

ETA- I'm not afraid of the police at all. Do you know why? Because I'm not breaking laws, nor am I hanging out with people who are breaking laws. Chances of me being arrested are right about zero.

Yeah, but plenty of POC who have never broken any laws, never hung out with anyone who broke any laws, HAVE been murdered by the police due to profiling. Just because we're white (I think you're white?) and we seem safe now doesn't mean that everyone is, and doesn't mean that we always will be.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-kill-unarmed-man-doorstep-brought-dinner-family/#4uE63ldeqv4LzQ2H.01
Yet another example.

 

[Karl_K]

Yes in some ways and in some cases.
Other cases I see the media race baiting for views and not giving all the information.
There are white people being killed by cops in questionable situations and you never hear about it nationwide because it is not news to the major media outlets.

The 12 year old while a tragedy has happened every once in while for hundreds of years and there is really nothing that can be done about it.
He removed the orange part of the gun that identified it as a toy gun and pointed it at the officer.
The officer had to assume it was real.
Now I do think they were stupid for racing up like that because if it had been someone who was out to shot a cop they would have both been dead.

I was approached by police on routine patrol while carrying a pellet rifle around the same age.
I rested it on the ground holding the barrel when I saw him the whole time I talked to him.
He just asked me my name and where I was going to shoot and I said a friends house, he said be careful and left. I saw him several times after that both with and without the rifles and we exchanged waves.
While I suspect that today's officers would be much more excited about it and it would not be so casual I also don't think I would get shot either because I would keep the gun safe and not point it at anyone.
In today's environment I would recommend kids keep it cased while carrying it because of all the pansies who would panic at seeing a pellet gun and call the cops.

 

[packrat]

Yes.

Police officers don't even make the list of the top 10 dangerous jobs in the USA, and police deaths are way down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fv92JZgQIg&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ
I found this very informative, gives alot of great numbers throughout.

Police officers don't make the top 10 dangerous list for jobs for a reason. They do what they can to protect themselves, with their weapons, and with armor, training, etc. Police deaths are way down for those very same reasons. Precautions. Preventative measures. B/c they're going home to their wives and children at the end of their shift. Anyone looking for a NON-dangerous job...are they really going to say oh hey, a police man! Nope. If a job involves guns and tasers and bullet proof vests...that's not really like...the hallmark of an easy peasy lemon squeezy choice of career. Getting shot at isn't so much what I'd consider not dangerous, but yanno, those that feel it's so easy a caveman can do it...they're more than welcome to give it a whirl.

 

[packrat]

It's really hard for me to see threads like this considering just a few weeks ago my husband had bullets flying over his head.

But yanno...naaaah not dangerous at all. It's all kittens. And glitter, that job.

 

[packrat]

I posted this on FB. Got like two comments. I know why.

https://apbweb.com/hard-keep-caring/

 

[Dancing Fire]

If you look white or Caucasian, that's probably sufficient but I think those who do not look white or Caucasian runs the risk of racial profiling by the police force in some areas of the USA.

How about Asians?

 

[Calliecake]

Yes.

Police officers don't even make the list of the top 10 dangerous jobs in the USA, and police deaths are way down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fv92JZgQIg&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ
I found this very informative, gives alot of great numbers throughout.

Police officers don't make the top 10 dangerous list for jobs for a reason. They do what they can to protect themselves, with their weapons, and with armor, training, etc. Police deaths are way down for those very same reasons. Precautions. Preventative measures. B/c they're going home to their wives and children at the end of their shift. Anyone looking for a NON-dangerous job...are they really going to say oh hey, a police man! Nope. If a job involves guns and tasers and bullet proof vests...that's not really like...the hallmark of an easy peasy lemon squeezy choice of career. Getting shot at isn't so much what I'd consider not dangerous, but yanno, those that feel it's so easy a caveman can do it...they're more than welcome to give it a whirl.

Seriously. How can anyone feel a police officer doesn't have an extremely dangerous job. I understand your point of view Packrat. I also have a police officer as a family member and know the terrible things he has seen.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Last nite NYC Police chief announced complete retraining of all officers. (I posted this before the announcement) I suspect that some officers are jumping the gun before being endangered. The choke hold homicide got me. How can you be afraid when there are 5 or 6 other officers with you holding the man down. I think he was just an illegal peddlar selling his wares.

Last nite I thought about my views of the police over time, and I can say that i believe the police have changed. As a young woman, a friend and I worked a 4-11 shift at a Wall Street Bank. We came home around midnite and walked as the wait for a bus was long. Do you know there was usually a police car that followed us home. As a teenager my friend and I wanted to learn about our city, NY, and went to nite court and the bowery (which was considered dangerous) Same thing happened. A police car made sure we were ok on most of our nite trip. Everybody liked the police that I knew. Even when I bought my home here in the Chicago area and had two burglaries the officer came and inspected the house and made me a list of all I should do to make my home burglar proof. He helped me a lot.

Not now. I had to call them on a few minor issues with neighbors and they are downright nasty. I ended up going to court and explained to the judge that the police did nothing to help. The judge ripped into the police and when the problem recurred they were here really fast. No, sorry, I find them rude. nasty and, I may as well get this all out, the female officers are so much worse then the male officer.

Thanks telephone for the video. It was good.

Now, if we have any attorneys reading, could someone please explain why a prosecutor would not have asked for an indictment in the Fergeson police grand jury. Is that why an indictment was not +forthcoming?

For those whose husbands , brothers, sons or daughters are police officers, I am trying to see , not who is at fault, but what can be changed to improve the situation. Someone on this board once wrote to me when i made a less than praiseworthy comment on female behavior, that I was the problem, because, I held them back by my comment. Surely, we can comment in a discussion of a problem, as this surely is, without subjugating every officer as being the problem.

 

[packrat]

Things that would work toward making things better, are not things that are "easy". They *should* be. But they won't be. I can tell you right now, people will throw fits. Because--there should be training. Extensive, ongoing, training, in various things. Who pays for that? The officer? No, the city/state they work for should pay for it. Buuuuut...they won't. You will need extra officers to cover for those that are in training for a week. Who pays for that? The city/state should hire officers to replace them...buuuut they won't. You need Chiefs of Police and Sheriff's who are NOT POLITICIANS in a law enforcement officer uniform. Our city is in fact trying to cut the budget, so we won't have 24/7 coverage and will be short officers. And our city in fact throws the ultimate hissy fit of hissy fits if the Chief wants to send the officers for training. I can place a pretty good bet that a LOT of departments deal with this. People want to be protected, and they want officers to essentially say, I will die for you or your family, at the cost of leaving my own family---buuuut I don't want to PAY you to do it. I don't want to provide you with training or the tools you need to actually do the job. I just want you to protect me with your life...b/c that's your job.

Welcome to the grand life of a law enforcement officer.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

My attitude is that the officers should protect themselves. I am so happy to see helmets on them to protect their heads. If you are in a situation where the odds are very against your survival, get the h*ll out of there. You can fight another day. Let the criminal go. But, I expect officers to be able to assess whether there is a dangerous situation, and not shoot or kill someone unnecessarily. My family is white and now I tell the males, just put your hands over your head and get down on the ground if some unexpected situation occurs, No back-talking. You see, everyone is a potential criminal to them or means them harm. They can't tell the difference.

I have to tell you a story though from a good while ago.(a little off topic). I'm from Brooklyn N>Y. All the relatives owned delicatessens--this was before the big super-market invasion. The cops(we called them that) used to come in to my dads store and he would make them sandwiches and coffee without charge. My father never complained about the no charge , but thought of it as good-will. If I was in the store alone,during summer vacation, my instructions were to make the sandwiches, and never charge them.

My uncle , in another, better part of town refused to give them a free lunch. They did expect it. He began to get tickets for the smallest infractions until his anger was big. The police of course had no idea my cousin, his son, was a lawyer. He thought the police were corrupt and sent my cousin to court to stop them. He won and never received a ticket again, and of course gave them no free lunch.

I know the police aren't supposed to do this, but i agree with my dad. Thats how people rewarded the police. My dad thought, maybe someday you will really need them- do right by them now.

I haven't dealt with a friendly policeman in ages. I don't want them hurt, but i sure don't want innocent people being hurt because they seem to lose rational thinking. My best to your husband, Packrat, as I'm sure the criticism can hurt. But i think we need to be certain all citizens are protected as well.


Annette

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I live in a small village near NYC with our own police force and then I work in NYC and have had many experiences with the police there as well. Our village pays very high taxes and has very well paid and trained police officers. I have never had any issues with the police where I live and they have been very helpful and considerate when needed. My experiences in NYC have varied drastically. It's way too much politics in NYC. I also work in NYC public schools and it's the same for the teachers. The systems are too big and corruption is impossible to wipe out.

I was rear ended by a bus once in East NY, one of the roughest neighborhoods in Brooklyn, 911 was called right away but there were no serious injuries. After waiting FOUR hours for the police we were advised to go to the precinct ourselves to fill out reports. Once we got there they would not help us because we left the scene. Needless to say my car was never repaired even though I was not at fault.

At the same time in other neighborhoods in Brooklyn I've been able to get assistance right away. How is that remotely fair to the officers or the people living in the neighborhoods? It's the same with the schools, they're all supposed to receive the same funding but they are extremely different one neighborhood to another.

As with all things I would say it's not the officers, it's the people in charge and the lack of training, resources, and support.

 

[elle_chris]

Hi,

My attitude is that the officers should protect themselves. I am so happy to see helmets on them to protect their heads. If you are in a situation where the odds are very against your survival, get the h*ll out of there. You can fight another day. Let the criminal go. But, I expect officers to be able to assess whether there is a dangerous situation, and not shoot or kill someone unnecessarily. My family is white and now I tell the males, just put your hands over your head and get down on the ground if some unexpected situation occurs, No back-talking. You see, everyone is a potential criminal to them or means them harm. They can't tell the difference.

I have to tell you a story though from a good while ago.(a little off topic). I'm from Brooklyn N>Y. All the relatives owned delicatessens--this was before the big super-market invasion. The cops(we called them that) used to come in to my dads store and he would make them sandwiches and coffee without charge. My father never complained about the no charge , but thought of it as good-will. If I was in the store alone,during summer vacation, my instructions were to make the sandwiches, and never charge them.

My uncle , in another, better part of town refused to give them a free lunch. They did expect it. He began to get tickets for the smallest infractions until his anger was big. The police of course had no idea my cousin, his son, was a lawyer. He thought the police were corrupt and sent my cousin to court to stop them. He won and never received a ticket again, and of course gave them no free lunch.

I know the police aren't supposed to do this, but i agree with my dad. Thats how people rewarded the police. My dad thought, maybe someday you will really need them- do right by them now.

I haven't dealt with a friendly policeman in ages. I don't want them hurt, but i sure don't want innocent people being hurt because they seem to lose rational thinking. My best to your husband, Packrat, as I'm sure the criticism can hurt. But i think we need to be certain all citizens are protected as well.


Annette

I grew up in Brooklyn and never had a good experience. Have had plenty of bad ones though. My parents even filed a complaint when two officers followed me and my best friend attempting to pick us up. We were teenagers.

Now I'm an adult. Live in Battery Park city (manhattan). It's one of the better neighborhoods in the city, very low crime rate, but I still have terrible experiences with the police.
Latest being how they wouldn't allow me to get home (there was a race hours earlier in my neighborhood but my block wasn't affected at all). When I asked why, was told "Because I'm a Police Officer and am telling you no".
I didn't let it go, went to precinct 1, was about to file a complaint when I was told they'll let me through just show I.D.
WTF?? REALLY?? Why did I need to go through all that just to get home??

This one is just the latest example of how the cops here behave, no respect for anyone. So why the hell should I have respect for them? Sorry, I didn't force you to go in this profession, and in fact, half of them should never even carry a gun, freaking narcissists that were never properly screened.

Better training is long overdue.

 

[Karl_K]

talking about police budgets.
Many years ago the week before thanksgiving someone thought it would be a good idea to have all the city police trespass on private property and issue city sticker tickets in church and store parking lots.
120 bucks right before Christmas and some people got multiple tickets.
There was a effort to have a referendum put on the ballet to cut the police budget 50% that had huge support but a judge said it was not legal under state law.
A lot of city councilman/woman lost their jobs and the stickers were eliminated the next year.
The police budget didn't get any increases for 4 or 5 years and any councilman/woman voted for one faced stiff opposition in the next election.
Which is another huge problem with police they have become revenue generators instead of protectors in many areas.

Civil forfeit laws have also gotten many innocents murdered by corrupt cops then they get by with it because of corrupt prosecutors and judges.

While I feel for the family members of cops but ignoring it and thinking everything is fine and dandy with law enforcement in the US is not going to change anything.
The fact is that everything is not right and changes are needed.

 

[packrat]

As far as "running away" "getting the hell out of dodge" if shit goes down, um, no that's not their job. Their job is to take care of shit, not run away. And how easy is it to make split second decisions? Split second life and death decisions? I get that nobody wants people to die unnecessarily, but if the police start running away...what are they there for? There again, is a reason behind putting your hand up, or behind your head, or getting down on the ground. This is another way to ensure safety. Honestly, they're not sitting around in the break room going "ohh hahaha you shoulda seen it, I said Hey put your hands behind your head! Real authoritive-like and they DID! OMG it was the funniest thing ever, you guys should try it. See what you can get them to do next"

The majority of LEO's don't think there's nothing wrong w/LE and the way things are run...the problem is, THEY don't run it. They don't get to decide their own budgets and absorb all kinds of wonderful training. Much the same as Teachers really aren't running the show, they teach what they're told to teach, how their told to teach it. Do you know what we have to spend a lot of time doing in preschool? Making observations that yes, this child can turn the faucet on by his/herself. yes this child can turn the faucet off by his/herself. Yes this child can get soap by his/herself. For EACH child. three times a year. And we can't just click a box. We have to have a 12 step process for each thing. It's more important for those who make the rules to know these minute details, than for us to spend our time teaching.

JD doesn't run the department. And really, the Chief is limited too. City Council runs it. They decide who the Chief is. We don't. They decide budget etc.

Yes things need to change. But being *able* to change things is another story. If LEO's were the ones running the show, they *could* change things. But they aren't the ones in charge. But of course, they're the ones being blamed....for doing their jobs, as well as they can w/in the limits and parameters set up by those who make the rules. Faulting the officers isn't going to make it better.

They're not taking forever to take care of shit b/c they're messing around or don't care. JD's been hindered by looky-lou's, unable to get around nosy people. He's been hindered by unclear directions, being the only cop on duty and on the other side of town, seeing as how we don't have teleportation capabilities as of yet.

Officers are human-and I'm pretty sure I'm not living in a world full of perfect Jesus-es.

 

[GliderPoss]

This is an interesting topic - quite a lot about in the media here (Oz).

Obviously I've never experienced anything similar myself, we were taught to have a healthy respect for the law and essentially if you do as they say (and don't break the law) then you will be fine. If they say STOP, you stop - don't run, don't talk back, don't behave in a threatening manner. In the US the tension and policing style seems to be a reaction to guns on the streets. Realistic toy guns also seem to be a new threat and understandably any policeman should assume it is real unless proven otherwise - perhaps they should be withdrawn from sale?

 

[packrat]

I saw a post today on a law enforcement page, giving officers a heads up about play guns altered to fit real guns inside. And real guns that looked like they would be fake--pink and glittery Hello Kitty was one.

And b/c of stupidity like that, we know what will happen. When an officer is shot by a real gun that had rainbows and unicorns on it, he will be faulted for being stupid and unaware. And when someone is shot for waving an actual fake fun w/rainbows and unicorns on it, the officer will be faulted for being stupid and unaware.

 

[elle_chris]

It's a much bigger issue than fake guns, at least in NYC.

There's a real sense of dislike for the police here. It's not just from the minority communities, it's from affluent white ones as well.
Most of it stems from being treated like a an idiot, or criminal. Abuse of their authority is too common here and there's not a damn
thing most of us can do about it. All of this just creates a distrustful atmosphere.

What happened in Staten Island just solidifies the contempt so many of us have for them. And while the jury may have chosen not to indict, the majority of New Yorkers are extremely glad the Justice Department decided to conduct their own investigation.

 

[telephone89]

I posted this on FB. Got like two comments. I know why.

https://apbweb.com/hard-keep-caring/

I'm sorry, WTF does 'sexually promiscuous behavior' have to do with being a cop? There are a multitude of things wrong with that article, but that particularly stuck out.

 

[packrat]

This is how I know you don't have a spouse who is in law enforcement. Sexually promiscuous behavior is something else officers have to deal with-the aftermath of it.

And if that's the only thing that really bothered you about the article, well then, that's part of the problem officers face.

As I've said a million times, those who are not in it, don't get it.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

JD doesn't run the department. And really, the Chief is limited too. City Council runs it. They decide who the Chief is. We don't. They decide budget etc.

Without wading too much into this debate, I have to say that from the Federal level, this is completely true. My job is to manage Federal grants to law enforcement agencies. Each jurisdiction's city council or board of supervisors has control or some sort of say into how that grant money is spent and in fact, must approve any costs. And often, even though the particular grant I manage is a formula grant that is sort of like an entitlement, many law enforcement agencies must be given approval by city council before they can spend the money.

Packrat, if you're in CA, I bet I managed the grant to your husband's agency at some point.

 

[packrat]

Nope, I'm out in the boonies, or as some like to call it, Iowa.

 

[telephone89]

This is how I know you don't have a spouse who is in law enforcement. Sexually promiscuous behavior is something else officers have to deal with-the aftermath of it.

And if that's the only thing that really bothered you about the article, well then, that's part of the problem officers face.

As I've said a million times, those who are not in it, don't get it.

It's not, as I said there were multiple things wrong with the article.

But he sounds like a gem. Probably blames rape victims for what they were wearing too right?

 

[packrat]

Yep. He probably does. And he probably thinks women deserve it when they're beaten. And kids too. And he's probably one of the cops who kills all the dogs. And I bet he's in on the conspiracy to kill all the blacks and take over the country.

Telephone, don't be an ass.

 

[telephone89]

I don't see how sexual promiscuity has anything else to do with it besides slut shaming and victim blaming, but feel free to enlighten me.

"This is how I know you don't have a spouse who is in law enforcement. Sexually promiscuous behavior is something else officers have to deal with-the aftermath of it. "

Have at er please.