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What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceScope?

chrono

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I like a balance between spread and sparkle. I do not want spread at the expense of sparkle and vice versa.
 

RADIANTMAN

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Speaking for myself, I have found the intolerance for alternative viewpoints that has been directed toward me and others to be extremely disconcerting. As a professional, I am interested in sharing my views and participating in a respectful discussion, not in simply becoming another voice in an echo chamber. I intend, when I have the time, to continue to post here if I think my input will be helpful, but I have to admit to more than a little frustration at times at the open hostility expressed by some posters toward anyone who doesn't agree with what seems to have become the quasi-official pricescope party line.

With regard to spread vs. brilliance: A 6.3 mm 1 ct round diamond will clearly look smaller than a 6.5 mm 1 ct round. If it is not more brilliant then it is clearly inferior since the consumer gets nothing for the trade-off in spread. If it is more brilliant, then the consumer needs to balance the loss of brilliance (which may be obvious but also may be subtle and visible only in certain kinds of light), against the gain in spread and decide where their preference lies. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. There is only "your" answer.

Making this more complicated is the fact that "brilliance" as we're defining it may not even be what the consumer thinks of when they use the word themselves so one person's "compromise" may not even represent a compromise to someone else. For example, scientifically, an emerald cut can have exceptional light return - it can be quite brilliant. Yet many consumers do not like emerald cuts because they are not "brilliant" to them because of the way the light is reflected. Whether one loves emerald cuts or doesn't is a matter of personal taste - whether you like the kind of brilliance it has, not by a measurement of its "performance" vs. other shapes.
 

Karl_K

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

David,
Stop discussing octavia
1: it is against the rules.
2: I would have to break the rules on self promotion to counter your bs.

Thanks
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Hi Karl,
It's been my experience that if one of our products is introduced into a discussion, I am allowed to comment in a general sense.
Unless I'm mistaken it's up to the moderators, and not you to advise us if a rule is broken.
I'm speaking in general terms abut Octavia, not any particular diamond.
I'd very much welcome your input- I'm sure others would as well.

Great post Stan
 

liaerfbv

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

To clarify for me -- as I'm unfamiliar with the rules regarding the specific things vendors can or cannot do, I thought a vendor could not comment on a specific competitor stone? So is it inappropriate for 2 vendors to discuss their own stones with each other (not as a sale pitch to a consumer)?

ETA: I mean not pit one stone against each other but discuss the differences between branded stones, etc.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Stan, a discussion of Octavia- or any cut, that involves spread is stating facts, as opposed to opinion, or speaking disparagingly.

I have already mentioned that I have seen Octavia in person, and my personal opinion is that I like them.
The spread issue is not a knock, it's a fact that the design calls for a very high crown, and corresponding pavilion. I have found that there are indeed Asscher cuts that are both spready, and well cut. Such stones will have a greater spread than Octavia.
That is the basis for my statements.

I truly wish that Karl would simply give his point of view as opposed to looking at this as a knock.

ETA- regarding the posts that use an aset of an alleged ORC with a question about a claim made on your site:
That is likely not against rules ( aside from being nasty, and possibly a false identification)
Claims made on any website, are fair game, if a vendor is participating- and IMO, that's a good thing.
There's a discussion today involving a site that posts cut grades- it is a valid, and permissible discussion about the validity of those cut grades.
 

Karl_K

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Rockdiamond|1416521920|3787558 said:
Stan, a discussion of Octavia- or any cut, that involves spread is stating facts, as opposed to opinion, or speaking disparagingly.

I have already mentioned that I have seen Octavia in person, and my personal opinion is that I like them.
The spread issue is not a knock, it's a fact that the design calls for a very high crown, and corresponding pavilion. I have found that there are indeed Asscher cuts that are both spready, and well cut. Such stones will have a greater spread than Octavia.
That is the basis for my statements.

I truly wish that Karl would simply give his point of view as opposed to looking at this as a knock.
David,
It is not that I see it as a knock as much as I see it as a rule violation and I would be in violation of the rules to respond.
Good or bad we are not supposed to discuss competitors diamonds, you don't see me pulling up your diamonds and commenting on them do you? The rules are slightly different in specific education threads like your radiant thread where you posted diamonds for discussion vs general threads.

Stan I have been reporting the posts you are taking about.
You are not the only one that thinks they are not right.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Karl- this is definitely an educational thread.
The decisions made in your designing the Octavia regarding spread, versus what you are getting in return will be informative and interesting.
I am NOT criticizing your choices- I like the way the design looks.
This is an opportunity for you to illustrate the advantages, and do so without self promotion.

I think that we all have a great opportunity here to work together in a way that makes PS a better place for consumers and tradespeople.
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

David
stop babbling about "pancake stones" please post some photos.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Chrono|1416511346|3787399 said:
I like a balance between spread and sparkle. I do not want spread at the expense of sparkle and vice versa.

This.
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

diamondseeker2006|1416538970|3787724 said:
Chrono|1416511346|3787399 said:
I like a balance between spread and sparkle. I do not want spread at the expense of sparkle and vice versa.

This.
That!.. :lol:
 

alpackie

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Tekate|1416501439|3787257 said:
PS uses google doesn't it? it always says 'powered by Google".. hmm.
I'm no programmer, but the Google method I described in my last post has always brought up more relevant topics than the one embedded in PS. I feel like if PS is to be an effective resource for diamond consumers, easy and categorical access to archives should be a top priority. There are some many useful threads hidden away!
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

RandG, I am planning to make earrings with rose cuts in the near future! I love them! I don't think one really buys rose cuts in the same way they buy a new diamond for an engagement ring, though. Most people coming here are looking for new stones for engagement rings or as an upgrade.

Antique stones are very popular with PS regulars, however. I do not classify old cuts in the same way as newly cut stones, because they were never cut to have light performance like modern stones are. Every stone has to be evaluated on its own merits. Sadly so many of the nice higher color antique stones have long ago been recut. To me, antique stones are an entirely different discussion. This forum primarily attracts people buying new modern cut diamonds. And in those cases, I cannot imagine not recommending well cut stones. Those who are looking for antique stones never consider cut grades, because they don't work with antique stones. You do have to rely solely on what your eyes see and personal preference knowing that outstanding light return is not usually something you're going to be getting. However, as I have said previously, there are some better cut antique stones than others, so I would recommend buying the finest examples possible.

Here are two examples. Is anyone here really going to argue that one of these is not better cut and preferable to the other??? (Well, I take that back. I suppose if the one with the poorer cut has better spread, there is one person on the thread who might prefer it.)

_24443.jpg

antiquecushion.jpg
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

David, please post some 1 ct asscher examples with stone images, ASETs, and their grading reports that have spread much better than the Octavia.
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

diamondseeker2006|1416540643|3787741 said:
RandG, I am planning to make earrings with rose cuts in the near future! I love them! I don't think one really buys rose cuts in the same way they buy a new diamond for an engagement ring, though. Most people coming here are looking for new stones for engagement rings or as an upgrade.

Antique stones are very popular with PS regulars, however. I do not classify old cuts in the same way as newly cut stones, because they were never cut to have light performance like modern stones are. Every stone has to be evaluated on its own merits. Sadly so many of the nice higher color antique stones have long ago been recut. To me, antique stones are an entirely different discussion. This forum primarily attracts people buying new modern cut diamonds. And in those cases, I cannot imagine not recommending well cut stones. Those who are looking for antique stones never consider cut grades, because they don't work with antique stones. You do have to rely solely on what your eyes see and personal preference knowing that outstanding light return is not usually something you're going to be getting. However, as I have said previously, there are some better cut antique stones than others, so I would recommend buying the finest examples possible.

Here are two examples. Is anyone here really going to argue that one of these is not better cut and preferable to the other??? (Well, I take that back. I suppose if the one with the poorer cut has better spread, there is one person on the thread who might prefer it.)


THIS.
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Karl_K|1416514573|3787438 said:
David,
Stop discussing octavia
1: it is against the rules.
2: I would have to break the rules on self promotion to counter your bs.

Thanks
Please do!.. :naughty:
 

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

re:What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceScope?

May be other question is more adequate :

what happen to all the independent professional researchers on PriceScope and diamond industry?

in beginning 21st century we saw( firstly on Gemkey, DiamondTalk then on PS_ many discussions between professional researches:
Bruce Harding, Marty Hasky, Michail Cowing , Al Gilberson , I many others ( even some persons from GIA as Illen Reintiz did some posts)
they ( not professional jewelers ) raised issues .

PS culture and business model do not motivate more ( and may be even penalty) such discussions .
10 years ago PS has progressive community , vision. Current PS is conservative community now: same questions, same answers.
in 2014 I and spending to reading PS in 100 times less time than in 2004. It become more and more boring more me, there is not more source for new knowledge , new ideas on PS. It is pity.
 

diagem

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Rockdiamond|1416523643|3787583 said:
Karl- this is definitely an educational thread.
The decisions made in your designing the Octavia regarding spread, versus what you are getting in return will be informative and interesting.
I am NOT criticizing your choices- I like the way the design looks.
This is an opportunity for you to illustrate the advantages, and do so without self promotion.

I think that we all have a great opportunity here to work together in a way that makes PS a better place for consumers and tradespeople.
David, I am willing to play and discuss....
Octavia was born on PS and all the info on it is openly posted on PS, especially what someone who purchases Octavia gets in return....
I believe you're claim regarding spread (& value) and square emerald cuts needs to be backed by your examples....

Let's see what you come up with and I will gladly get into an academic discussion with you.

Please show us what you wish to compare it with? :naughty:
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Yoram...A quick Q

besides yourself anyone else cutting Octavias?
 

RandG

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

diamondseeker2006|1416540643|3787741 said:
RandG, I am planning to make earrings with rose cuts in the near future! I love them! I don't think one really buys rose cuts in the same way they buy a new diamond for an engagement ring, though. Most people coming here are looking for new stones for engagement rings or as an upgrade.

Antique stones are very popular with PS regulars, however. I do not classify old cuts in the same way as newly cut stones, because they were never cut to have light performance like modern stones are. Every stone has to be evaluated on its own merits. Sadly so many of the nice higher color antique stones have long ago been recut. To me, antique stones are an entirely different discussion. This forum primarily attracts people buying new modern cut diamonds. And in those cases, I cannot imagine not recommending well cut stones. Those who are looking for antique stones never consider cut grades, because they don't work with antique stones. You do have to rely solely on what your eyes see and personal preference knowing that outstanding light return is not usually something you're going to be getting. However, as I have said previously, there are some better cut antique stones than others, so I would recommend buying the finest examples possible.

Here are two examples. Is anyone here really going to argue that one of these is not better cut and preferable to the other??? (Well, I take that back. I suppose if the one with the poorer cut has better spread, there is one person on the thread who might prefer it.)

Most people come here and lurk, educate themselves by reading prior threads, grab photos and never post anything. With the incredible surge in sales of Rose Cuts, I have to think some will in fact try to source them as an engagement ring, as many have done in the past too. How sad it will be for them to read about shallow stones being pancake like, generally, across the spectrum. Beauty comes in all shapes and sizes, no? If you were the proud owner of a rose cut diamond engagement ring, passed down through the generations or acquired as a result of spending your life savings, how would you feel? I suppose they can consign their rose cut to a PS loved vendor, and buy a new modern stone from one too. Convenient.

Diamondseeker, I appreciate your opinion, although I offer a different one. Old cuts were in fact cut for light performance, only it was light performance at that time-- candle light. The vast majority of true old stones were cut pre-GIA grading platform and modern cut parameters. Who are we today to judge the art of old, using modern guidelines? Old masters used "inferior" materials to paint some of the greatest works of art, the materials available at that time-- are they inferior because they didn't use the modern materials and technology available today? Yes, I can buy a perfect software driven paint by numbers laser version of the Mona Lisa. Or, I can just buy the Mona Lisa. People choose original fine art and antiques, appreciating the history, craftsmanship, diversity, beauty and imperfections because they appreciate the art of something entirely hand crafted. We don't celebrate this anymore, yet we celebrate those who are able to make a pretty nice modern copy of the original. Why do so many on these boards who start with a modern cut, ultimately fall in love and gravitate to old cuts? To say its budget or dreams of scale is too simplistic. Perhaps we should start a thread... all the reasons one transitions to a true old cut stone? No discussion or attempt to shape the dialogue. Just testimonials.

I love your passion for what you believe and you clearly care to help others and do a FANTASTIC JOB. If you haven't been compensated for your time, which has no doubt enriched many vendors on these boards, you should be. And because your voice, unlike a small group of others who only care to be right, is one of respectful diplomacy, I know I'll continue to learn from your experience. Lorelei... I haven't seen her post in a long time. She always had a way of saying it, without being divisive. Positive and encouraging, but thoughtful and honest too. You know?

I think I must be incredibly lucky. Maybe its my location. But I have seen many beautiful antique stones, almost all irregular. And while I get excited when Rockdiamond talks about new old mine cuts coming to the market, it makes me sad too. It's my cut of choice and I haven't yet found my holy grail. That you love your modern old cut is awesome! And while I appreciate the photo comparison, I'm not sure those are examples I see in the market. I'm chasing a stone for the past year, a true old miner, with the best proportions of any diamond I've ever seen. Is it an anomaly? No, its merely one of the few remaining big old cuts which hasn't been destroyed. Old cuts aren't destroyed because they're ugly. The diamond industry isn't altruistic. It's about profit. Selling newly processed stones is the goal. And if you can a shape consumers mind-set that old is bad, new is good, it sure makes it a lot easier to sell more newly processed material. Old stones in circulation are a nuisance.

Perhaps I'm jaded. If people earnestly memorialize here that true old cuts and warmer modern stones are generally inferior, obviously, it pushes new buyers to modern antique looking stones and higher color diamonds, mostly sold at a premium. Hmmm. That's interesting. If I was someone looking to get in on that game, and take advantage of the market dynamic, I'd fight pretty hard to get my point across too. Marketing at its optimal best.... push... pull.
 

RADIANTMAN

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Karl_K|1416522911|3787572 said:
Rockdiamond|1416521920|3787558 said:
Stan, a discussion of Octavia- or any cut, that involves spread is stating facts, as opposed to opinion, or speaking disparagingly.

I have already mentioned that I have seen Octavia in person, and my personal opinion is that I like them.
The spread issue is not a knock, it's a fact that the design calls for a very high crown, and corresponding pavilion. I have found that there are indeed Asscher cuts that are both spready, and well cut. Such stones will have a greater spread than Octavia.
That is the basis for my statements.

I truly wish that Karl would simply give his point of view as opposed to looking at this as a knock.
David,
It is not that I see it as a knock as much as I see it as a rule violation and I would be in violation of the rules to respond.
Good or bad we are not supposed to discuss competitors diamonds, you don't see me pulling up your diamonds and commenting on them do you? The rules are slightly different in specific education threads like your radiant thread where you posted diamonds for discussion vs general threads.

Stan I have been reporting the posts you are taking about.
You are not the only one that thinks they are not right.

Thank you Karl!
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I agree with everything you said, RandG. You are such a great resource as a collector of fine antique diamond jewelry, and I am thankful to be able to enjoy your posts and photos of gorgeous jewelry pieces! You do exactly what I recommend...hold out for outstanding examples of the type of diamond one is searching for..the holy grail diamond, as you described it. I was trying maybe unsuccessfully to make the exact same point that we do not evaluate old cuts the same way we judge modern cuts because modern light return measures are not relevant for old cuts (although I might like seeing how a diamond reflects light given the opportunity). If someone comes here looking for a rose cut engagement ring, I would absolutely would steer the buyer to people who could likely source them such as Erica, Grace, Old World Diamonds, SingleStone, etc. Caysie van Bebber will probably source my small ones for the earrings.

The two example stones I posted were identified by the vendors as Old Mine and antique cushion (and as I am sure you already know, vendors are not consistent with terminology!), one currently for sale and one recently sold.

In regard to modern cuts, I certainly believe that we can identify the best cut stones both visually and with tools that help us assess light return especially for buyers who are buying from a distance. And you are absolutely right that far more people lurk and read than those who actually post. We see suggested stones sold all the time before a buyer makes a decision! I enjoy helping people find diamonds for engagement rings and the best compensation is really the happiness of the couple when they end up with a far better quality ring than they would have been able to buy at their local mall! It really makes me sick to see young people spend hard earned money overpaying for poor quality diamond rings. I imagine there are statistics somewhere, but my guess is that rounds and princess cuts combined still comprise the majority of diamonds sold for engagement rings. I believe that is true here on PS and it is certainly true where I live. The only person I have seen locally with an OEC in real life is someone who inherited it from a mother-in-law. Every single young woman I know who has been married in the last five years, and I know a lot between my older daughter's friends and through teaching, every single one has round or princess. I certainly know my personal exposure is limited, but PS is a much broader sample.

My personal goal is to steer people to the best quality stones of whatever type they are looking for.
 

MelisendeDiamonds

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Radiantman|1416514496|3787436 said:
With regard to spread vs. brilliance: A 6.3 mm 1 ct round diamond will clearly look smaller than a 6.5 mm 1 ct round. If it is not more brilliant then it is clearly inferior since the consumer gets nothing for the trade-off in spread. If it is more brilliant, then the consumer needs to balance the loss of brilliance (which may be obvious but also may be subtle and visible only in certain kinds of light), against the gain in spread and decide where their preference lies.

I hope it would be your opinion that this principal applies equally to all cuts of diamonds not just the Round Brilliant. In both "education" threads about Radiant cuts this was never mentioned by either you or Rockdiamond despite the fact I brought it up several times. I don't beleive any cut is inherently "bad", but to ignore the tradeoffs and weaknesses that are inherent in any cut turns an education thread into a marketing one.
 

RADIANTMAN

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

MelisendeDiamonds|1416591742|3788039 said:
Radiantman|1416514496|3787436 said:
With regard to spread vs. brilliance: A 6.3 mm 1 ct round diamond will clearly look smaller than a 6.5 mm 1 ct round. If it is not more brilliant then it is clearly inferior since the consumer gets nothing for the trade-off in spread. If it is more brilliant, then the consumer needs to balance the loss of brilliance (which may be obvious but also may be subtle and visible only in certain kinds of light), against the gain in spread and decide where their preference lies.

I hope it would be your opinion that this principal applies equally to all cuts of diamonds not just the Round Brilliant. In both "education" threads about Radiant cuts this was never mentioned by either you or Rockdiamond despite the fact I brought it up several times. I don't beleive any cut is inherently "bad", but to ignore the tradeoffs and weaknesses that are inherent in any cut turns an education thread into a marketing one.

You have omitted an important portion of my post. Since the omitted portion is directly responsive to your comment I have provided it again:


"Making this more complicated is the fact that "brilliance" as we're defining it may not even be what the consumer thinks of when they use the word themselves so one person's "compromise" may not even represent a compromise to someone else. For example, scientifically, an emerald cut can have exceptional light return - it can be quite brilliant. Yet many consumers do not like emerald cuts because they are not "brilliant" to them because of the way the light is reflected. Whether one loves emerald cuts or doesn't is a matter of personal taste - whether you like the kind of brilliance it has, not by a measurement of its "performance" vs. other shapes."

On another front, I asked previously if you could provide the ORC identification # for the diamond that you have repeatedly represented as an ORC. It would be quite helpful for any further discussion if you would do so to clear up any issues as to its authenticity and so that if it indeed is an ORC I can look up any information about it that I might have in my records.
 

Modified Brilliant

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I'm arriving a bit late to this thread but I wanted to express my thoughts regarding the original question.

Many years ago, consumers were not necessarily getting enough information regarding "cut" and other technical information from the vendors. Appraisers at the time attempted to bridge this gap and many Pricescope consumers and other interested buyers sought our services. Fast forward...years later...most if not all furnish the buyer with every type of report imaginable so there is now little need to seek out an appraiser to explain it all. An appraiser, like a retail jeweler, must constantly change with the times and jump on the latest trends and needs of the consumer to stay alive. I've built my business on knowledge, honesty and integrity but I'm constantly trying to figure out how I can grow my business. I don't have all the answers, but my years of past experience in corporate America have made me a sensible business person. There will be a steady flow of Baby Boomers who need their "stuff" appraised for estate purposes and distribution among siblings. We appraise more "old" than "new" and this has been the trend. Years ago people were afraid of getting ripped off and needed an appraiser to verify their purchase. Not so much anymore. The internet has contributed to keeping vendors honest and transparent, i.e. yelp.

It's true... many of us have less time these days to spend on Pricescope, because we are trying to grow our business in so many ways, shapes, and forms. The PS contributors do a fantastic job of helping consumers at an educational and high level. Thank you. This business is a huge challenge. So, what will be the next great debate? And where do I sign up?
 

Texas Leaguer

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I’d like to offer my perspective on why there is not more participation of trade experts. First let me say that I am not a forum old timer, despite having been given that credit at the beginning of the thread. In fact I have only been active in the past couple of years. So my perspective is somewhat limited.

I think a number of valid reasons have already been stated including the fact that it can be a very time-consuming activity which may not have priority for a lot of folks in the trade. I also think that many trades people are reluctant to be seen as self-promoting and/or violating forum rules in some way. I know that my default position is to stay out of a thread if Whiteflash has even been mentioned, except in rare cases where there is some misinformation or a specific issue that requires addressing. And it can be a little intimidating to think you may get flamed for something you say. (Frankly, many prosumers know a lot more about certain aspects of diamonds that most “professionals” and that realization gives many would-be trade participants pause.)

I will admit that I am conflicted about my participation. On the one hand I really enjoy constructive dialogue. I feel that makes us all richer. I have learned quite a lot through this forum, and I hope that I have given some back as well. On the other hand I sometimes wonder what consumers think when they are having this frank conversation with their peers and all of a sudden it becomes obvious that the vendors are listening in!

But the main thing that discourages me from participating more (aside from time) is the frustration of seeing potentially worthwhile discussions devolve into personal attacks or attempts to misdirect the conversation. I don’t think many people have a tolerance for petty bickering, score settling, or posters with a penchant for dragging conversations into a black hole through an endless loop of regurgitated diatribes. Maybe there should be some sort of limit set on the number of posts you can make in a given thread or per day or week. That would make people think harder about how they want to use their forum bandwidth, and that may lead to better quality posts and discussions.

Not that I think everything has to be nicey, nicey. In fact, a little edge can make for a lively and interesting conversation and get more people involved. But too much acrimony will drive everyone off, trades people and consumers alike.

I think the moderators have a difficult challenge. They cannot inhibit free speech too much or the forum will become sanitized and sterile instead of vibrant and real, but some discipline has to be enforced around the specific rules and also around basic civil discourse. Which means that some people will push the envelop too much and others not enough, leading to some posters who you wish would give it a rest and others that you wish would chime in more.

In the final analysis the life blood of the forum is the consumer and so the focus should always stay on squarely on them. Although the experts are a vital part of a healthy community mix, trades people should be in the back of the room judiciously choosing when to enter a conversation and using their opportunities only when they have something of specific value to offer. I do wish there were more of them here, and that they would all heed my advice!
 

Karl_K

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Texas Leaguer|1416620456|3788295 said:
In the final analysis the life blood of the forum is the consumer and so the focus should always stay on squarely on them. Although the experts are a vital part of a healthy community mix, trades people should be in the back of the room judiciously choosing when to enter a conversation and using their opportunities only when they have something of specific value to offer. I do wish there were more of them here, and that they would all heed my advice!
Well said, but I will add:
And trade should always be polite to consumers and prosumers.
Trade members that want to fight and argue with consumers or that put them down have no place here in my opinion.
 

MelisendeDiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
234
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Radiantman|1416594000|3788063 said:
"Making this more complicated is the fact that "brilliance" as we're defining it may not even be what the consumer thinks of when they use the word themselves so one person's "compromise" may not even represent a compromise to someone else. For example, scientifically, an emerald cut can have exceptional light return - it can be quite brilliant. Yet many consumers do not like emerald cuts because they are not "brilliant" to them because of the way the light is reflected. Whether one loves emerald cuts or doesn't is a matter of personal taste - whether you like the kind of brilliance it has, not by a measurement of its "performance" vs. other shapes."

Brilliance is not a subjective term to me, and as I have repeatedly asked you and Rockdiamond to consider adopting a simple definition (which you have refused) for the purpose of education or understanding the correlation with ASET there isn't anywhere to reach agreement. The situation is further exacerbated by your insistence on providing photographs of "your" diamonds in "your" lighting for the purposes of defining performance and not disclosing what the lighting is.

Brilliance - is the ability of the diamond to return light to the viewer's eyes

In my opinion given a lack of agreement on a definition there will be a perpetual downward spiral and there can never be any education, consensus, or even agreement on a framework for critical comparison of diamonds.

I have scans of three square radiants with the same classical radiant facet structure used by your brand, with average pavilion main angles of 1)~35 degrees 2)~38 3)~41 which I intend on presenting in my own thread in future. I think the comparison will be very educational in understanding "crushed ice" and radiants especially if I can also embed videos in the forum.

On another front, I asked previously if you could provide the ORC identification # for the diamond that you have repeatedly represented as an ORC. It would be quite helpful for any further discussion if you would do so to clear up any issues as to its authenticity and so that if it indeed is an ORC I can look up any information about it that I might have in my records.

So that consumers can follow is this the image you would like to authenticate?
unparalelledbrilliancetake2.jpg

The moderator has not removed that image in past threads and has deemed it acceptable despite it being reported. I believe that the correct educational message has been received by some, however as I don't want future educational discussions to be derailed because Original Radiant Cut is mentioned I will avoid linking images to brands in future images, particularly yours given the sensitivity.

While I could post the ORC number for the diamond on the right it might be deleterious for future comparative discussions. Once it is positively identified as one of yours and who listed it, any tradeoffs that I highlight could be considered by some as a violation of forum rules and a "condemnation" of your business. Not my intention or a fact but I see your sensitivity and that of others.

I would be happy to send the GIA and ORC reports to Ella upon her request to authenticate as long as they don't get posted or used publicly effectively "burning" the example.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,620
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

MelisendeDiamonds|1416675195|3788541 said:
Radiantman|1416594000|3788063 said:
"Making this more complicated is the fact that "brilliance" as we're defining it may not even be what the consumer thinks of when they use the word themselves so one person's "compromise" may not even represent a compromise to someone else. For example, scientifically, an emerald cut can have exceptional light return - it can be quite brilliant. Yet many consumers do not like emerald cuts because they are not "brilliant" to them because of the way the light is reflected. Whether one loves emerald cuts or doesn't is a matter of personal taste - whether you like the kind of brilliance it has, not by a measurement of its "performance" vs. other shapes."

Brilliance is not a subjective term to me, and as repeatedly you will not consider adopting a simple definition even for the the purpose of education or understanding the correlation with ASET there isn't anywhere to reach agreement. The situation is further exacerbated by your insistence on providing photographs of "your" diamonds in "your" lighting for the purposes of defining performance and not disclosing what the lighting is.

Brilliance - is the ability of the diamond to return light to the viewer's eyes

In my opinion given a lack of agreement on a definition there will be a perpetual downward spiral and there can never be any education, consensus, or even agreement on a framework for critical comparison of diamonds.

The only way forward that I can see would be starting my own thread and presenting my own examples in a balanced manner with both pros and cons of each cutting style being considered. I have scans of three square radiants with the same classical radiant structure with average pavilion main angles of 1)~35 degrees 2)~38 3)~41 which I can present and post images of ASET faceup and also with 5 degree tilt, I think the comparison will be very educational in understanding "crushed ice" and radiants especially if I can also embed videos in the forum.

On another front, I asked previously if you could provide the ORC identification # for the diamond that you have repeatedly represented as an ORC. It would be quite helpful for any further discussion if you would do so to clear up any issues as to its authenticity and so that if it indeed is an ORC I can look up any information about it that I might have in my records.

While I could post the ORC number for you it will be deleterious for future comparative discussions. Once it is positively identified as one of yours (It will be it has ORC #3XXX) any tradeoffs that I highlight could be considered by some as a violation of forum rules and a "condemnation" of your business. Lets just say instead in future it has near identical proportions to the classical radiant style for an almost square radiant LW=1.05.

The moderator has not removed that image and has deemed it acceptable despite it being reported. I believe that the correct educational message has been received by that image and as I don't want future educational discussions to be derailed because Original Radiant Cut is mentioned I will avoid linking images to brands in future particularly yours given your sensitivity.

Melisende ,
How did You verify your definition of Brilliancy ?

Lets check you definition for simplest examples
1) 2mm and 6mm round diamonds, both have same AGS0 parameters
which diamond is more Brilliant?
Which Diamond is more Bright?
Which diamond has more ability to Return more light to the viewers eyes?

if you see any difference in Brilliancy for these 2 diamonds and you do not see any difference in ASET images for same diamonds then you need change your statements about Brilliancy and connections between Brilliancy and ASET images.
2) compare 1ct AGS0 round diamond in static position and same diamond during tilting.
please give answers for same questions.
3) if you saw 20-50 ct round diamond with AGS0 proportions, please compare Brilliancy for such big round diamond with 1ct AGS0 RBC.

Your personal attacks to some trade persons are not pleasant and avoid other professionals to publish them opinions .
 

MelisendeDiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
234
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Serg|1416676594|3788547 said:
Melisende ,
How did You verify your definition of Brilliancy ?
2007 in the journal Optical Engineering, entitled “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones." Foundational work on the project was published in Optics and Photonics News in April of 2003 entitled “The Optical Design of Gemstones." and references therein.

Serg,

I have found in the past getting into too many fine technical details all at once has not had the greatest impact on the general pricescope readership and I'm not sure it is the focus of this thread but I'll answer some of your questions briefly even though you claim my posts are "personal attacks" and are "attacking" me right now in much the same way.


Lets check you definition for simplest examples
1) 2mm and 6mm round diamonds, both have same AGS0 parameters
which diamond is more Brilliant?
Which Diamond is more Bright?
Which diamond has more ability to Return more light to the viewers eyes?

Size is an important factor especially for virtual facet size and it should be taken into consideration. The large majority of examples I have posted (with a couple notable exceptions) are within 1 - 2 ct range which is the sweet spot for "light performance branded diamonds" given cost of rough, saleability, and yield concerns.

if you see any difference in Brilliancy for these 2 diamonds and you do not see any difference in ASET images for same diamonds then you need change your statements about Brilliancy and connections between Brilliancy and ASET images.

2) compare 1ct AGS0 round diamond in static position and same diamond during tilting.
please give answers for same questions.
3) if you saw 20-50 ct round diamond with AGS0 proportions, please compare Brilliancy for such big round diamond with 1ct AGS0 RBC.

A static ASET image is not the whole story, if I am presenting I would present a simulated video with the diamonds rocking under ASET lighting. If thats not practical a few ASET images with each with tilt 5 degrees in each direction would still be instructive.
Octonus Diamcalc is extremely helpful in this regard especially for providing standardized lighting and for controlling tilt so thank-you for that.


Your personal attacks to some trade persons are not pleasant and avoid other professionals to publish them opinions.
 
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