Wildfishgems crowd funding?

[Edward Bristol]

Sure I will get no answer....

No, you won't. But see how much work I have put into that originally 5ct stone, 2 reports, shipping back and forth, cutting by Peter. Months of work.

 

[Edward Bristol]

And Ed is the one that is determining the value of these gems, A HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

Yes, true. But who sets the prices? Always the seller. And I need to keep within the market (even if it is the upper 5%).

Imagine the buyers would determine prices. At times that has happened and I have seen the misery this is causing in the 3rd world.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Since you claim you buy a rainforest every month, how many rainforest and animal habitats do you and your wholesalers destroy to find the gems you source? No-one ever talks about the parts of the environment in many of these places that are being destroyed by mining....

Oh, I do talk about it, a lot. Since a decade and more, before anybody even bothered, I was doing stuff on the ground.

True, sadly, mining is a ecological hazard, so I try my best to make up for it.

The organization (profit or not) that spends on charity and DOES NOT talk about it has yet to be born.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?

Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?

If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.

After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

 

[T L]

And Ed is the one that is determining the value of these gems, A HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

Yes, true. But who sets the prices? Always the seller. And I need to keep within the market (even if it is the upper 5%).

Imagine the buyers would determine prices. At times that has happened and I have seen the misery this is causing in the 3rd world.

What you're saying is misleading. You are offering an investment scheme on a product with extremely variable prices in the marketplace, and on top of that, you have a very high retail markup compared to similar gems, as noted not just by me, but MANY of us here. On top of that, in this investment scheme, YOU are the one setting the prices for a subset of gems in the marketplace under YOUR control. That doesn't sound like good monetary return to me. However, like you said, your group of customers doesn't care about prices. Is that because they are naive, or they're educated consumers, like many of us here? For example, charging $50K on a 2 carat purple "ruby" is ridiculous just because its precision cut.

Using charities as justification for your extremely high markups is really getting blown out of proportion, and again, where's the proof you're actually donating? Unlike other people on this forum, I really don't believe everything you say. I am a person that requires proof, and that doesn't just go for you, but every vendor here.

 

[T L]

After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

That doesn't change a thing for me, I don't know about others here. What's done is done. I find this "investment" strategy quite distasteful, and it's a shame because as a small business owner, reputation is everything.

 

[Edward Bristol]

I am not allowed to tell you why I think that ruby is special, but there is a threat on that topic.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Oh, let me guess, TL, you will say I faked the certificate?

 

[T L]

I am not allowed to tell you why I think that ruby is special, but there is a threat on that topic.

Absolutely!!!

So? That can be forged. How does it tie back to the charity? Where's your receipt Ed?

 

[Edward Bristol]

LOL. Spot on. I hope you don't edit that away. Call the trust.

 

[T L]

LOL. Spot on. I hope you don't edit that away. Call the trust.

I will. But regardless, what does this charity funding have to do with the crux of the issue? It's only a marketing scheme IMO.

 

[Edward Bristol]

TL, call the WLT, and when you get the truth, be so fair to post that as well.

 

[T L]

I am not allowed to tell you why I think that ruby is special, but there is a threat on that topic.

What are you talking about????

What threat? No one is threatening you. Here's the thread, anyone can read it.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/100-ruby-challenge.201810/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/100-ruby-challenge.201810/[/URL]

If WLT tells me that you're a donator, then fine, I'll believe them, and post it here, but again, this charity is marketing on your behalf. Why not highlight the rainforest issues instead, and be a silent donator? I think that's a lot more tasteful, especially in lieu of your markups. Slapping charity logos all over a webpage for a investment scheme is just . . .

 

[chrono]

Too many red herrings in this thread that I'm constantly reminding myself to keep the crux of the question on the forefront. Let's throw out the charity issue for now so that we can tackle one issue at a time. Whether a customer requests this scheme or not, to me, isn't the real issue either. If a customer asked this of me, I would say "no thank you" because I cannot do this in good conscience. Just because a customer requests this (or many customers) doesn't make it ethically the right thing to do.

I feel that the wording of the website together with the word "investment" and the discussion of treatment misleading. Gems are NOT an investment. I do not want the customer to think that he/she is going to be able to sell their gem for the same price in the secondary market should they one day need to liquidate it.

"Today, everybody can afford some mutant gem."
"Six billion consumers now get the message: Treated gems are not really gemstones."

Hmmm, so what are the heated blue sapphires? Guess they must be affordable mutant gems. There is no talk of quality at all. Not all untreated gems are of equal fine-ness.

Wildfish buys the gem and sets the price for the gems on his website. The conflict of interest is much too strong for me. It isn't a true free market. Say a customer buys a $10K share. In 5 years, the customer "cashes" out at $30K in the form of a gem. Sounds great until the customer tries to sell it because he/she is need of cash. I do not want to imagine the shock the customer gets when he/she realizes that due to the overinflation of prices, the gem can actually be gotten elsewhere for $10K "brand new" and in trying to sell it in the secondary market brings its price down even lower, so that in the end, the investment of $10K has no return at all and is possibly a monetary loss.

 

[arkieb1]

Since you claim you buy a rainforest every month, how many rainforest and animal habitats do you and your wholesalers destroy to find the gems you source? No-one ever talks about the parts of the environment in many of these places that are being destroyed by mining....

Oh, I do talk about it, a lot. Since a decade and more, before anybody even bothered, I was doing stuff on the ground.

True, sadly, mining is a ecological hazard, so I try my best to make up for it.

The organization (profit or not) that spends on charity and DOES NOT talk about it has yet to be born.

My husband's family own a fossil, gemstone, crystal and mineral shop and museum. They donate to a number of different charities, they are also into conservation - never in the 35+ years that they have been in business have I EVER seen them use let alone mention this as leverage to market any part of their business. But if it works for you, knock yourself out. I'm personally glad you're buying the forest. I hope more people buy forest. It might make up for a fraction of all the scarred holes in the ground that are now unusable ruined animal habitat that mining has destroyed.

I'm happy to apologise. Your not running a Pyramid scheme, I'm not even sure you know what you are running..... It strikes me as a conflict of interest to label and market overpriced gemstones as future "investment funds" but if people have asked for that then I guess more fool them. And if people on here have called you out on it and you have responded in a fairly reactionary manner - this further demonstrates that you probably should not be doing so. But these are just my thoughts.

I link an above statement back to one made earlier, how is a heat only sapphire with a near perfect electric blue colour any less of a gemstone than a smucky cut overly dark untreated one? Your blurb seems to suggest that only untreated gemstones are viable investments. There are some wild porkies being told in your investment summary.....

 

[Marlow]

Sure I will get no answer....

No, you won't. But see how much work I have put into that originally 5ct stone, 2 reports, shipping back and forth, cutting by Peter. Months of work.

This is your job!!

 

[MollyMalone]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?
Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?
If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.
After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

Having been a prosecutor for much of my legal career, I view the lodging of accusations of criminality to be a grave matter, not something to be tossed off lightly & that should not have been done so here. It's probably unrealistic, however, to expect an apology from a man who's unabashedly penned, e.g., the following:

come on, I did my dissertation on pyramid scheme (ponzi scheme).

This sentence alone demonstrates any claim that he possesses in-depth knowledge is risible; a pyramid scheme is not a Ponzi scheme & the two are not properly interchangeable.

Still, I think it would be good to seriously consider discontinuing this venture altogether as ill-advised for all concerned... those who might consider joining, and you yourself as a businessman (especially if you have not thoroughly vetted it with a US attorney steeped in such matters; as smitcompton/Annette indicated, there are regulatory minefields that can trip up anyone).

p.s. TL's response here

Oh, let me guess, TL, you will say I faked the certificate?

Absolutely!!!
So? That can be forged. How does it tie back to the charity? Where's your receipt Ed?

was uncalled-for; especially dispiriting for me to read such nastiness on PS 1st thing on a gorgeous, sunny Monday morning here in NYC.

 

[OreoRosies86]

This whole thread is

 

[liao]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?

Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?

If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.

After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

Well, i am sorry if u did not have any intension of creating pyramid scheme. Nevertheless, you shouldnt usr this business model because it hint to pyramid scheme! In most country u need permission from gov todo something like this.

 

[T L]

Molly,
You're right, my comment about the receipt was probably uncalled for. I just get easily flustered when I see e-certificates thrown all over the place online, and charities used as marketing ploys for investments. I will leave the charity thing out of it from now on. My apologies.

 

[liao]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?
Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?
If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.
After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

Having been a prosecutor for much of my legal career, I view the lodging of accusations of criminality to be a grave matter, not something to be tossed off lightly & that should not have been done so here. It's probably unrealistic, however, to expect an apology from a man who's unabashedly penned, e.g., the following:

come on, I did my dissertation on pyramid scheme (ponzi scheme).

This sentence alone demonstrates any claim that he possesses in-depth knowledge is risible; a pyramid scheme is not a Ponzi scheme & the two are not properly interchangeable.

Still, I think it would be good to seriously consider discontinuing this venture altogether as ill-advised for all concerned... those who might consider joining, and you yourself as a businessman (especially if you have not thoroughly vetted it with a US attorney steeped in such matters; as smitcompton/Annette indicated, there are regulatory minefields that can trip up anyone).

p.s. TL's response here

Oh, let me guess, TL, you will say I faked the certificate?

Absolutely!!!
So? That can be forged. How does it tie back to the charity? Where's your receipt Ed?

was uncalled-for; especially dispiriting for me to read such nastiness on PS 1st thing on a gorgeous, sunny Monday morning here in NYC.

read my previous post clearly, I am sure you can understand why I put it in the bracket

 

[VapidLapid]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?
Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?
If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.
After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

Having been a prosecutor for much of my legal career, I view the lodging of accusations of criminality to be a grave matter, not something to be tossed off lightly & that should not have been done so here. It's probably unrealistic, however, to expect an apology from a man who's unabashedly penned, e.g., the following:

come on, I did my dissertation on pyramid scheme (ponzi scheme).

This sentence alone demonstrates any claim that he possesses in-depth knowledge is risible; a pyramid scheme is not a Ponzi scheme & the two are not properly interchangeable.

Still, I think it would be good to seriously consider discontinuing this venture altogether as ill-advised for all concerned... those who might consider joining, and you yourself as a businessman (especially if you have not thoroughly vetted it with a US attorney steeped in such matters; as smitcompton/Annette indicated, there are regulatory minefields that can trip up anyone).

p.s. TL's response here

Oh, let me guess, TL, you will say I faked the certificate?

Absolutely!!!
So? That can be forged. How does it tie back to the charity? Where's your receipt Ed?

was uncalled-for; especially dispiriting for me to read such nastiness on PS 1st thing on a gorgeous, sunny Monday morning here in NYC.

read my previous post clearly, I am sure you can understand why I put it in the bracket

bracket or no bracket makes no difference as there was no pyramid or ponzi scheme.
Your apology is really inadequate. As the OP you have the right to ask the moderators to delete this thread. I think that would be the right thing to do.

 

[liao]

Finally, does nobody here share my feeling that I am owned an apology for being called a thief (Ponzi) and a fraudster?
Is this a place where criminal allegations can be made from the anonymity of a keyboard without consequences?
If things are said too quickly, that happens to me as well, but stand up and say sorry, as I have done sometimes.
After more insight: Does the community still want me to take the gem-shares off-line? If yes, I will do so.

Having been a prosecutor for much of my legal career, I view the lodging of accusations of criminality to be a grave matter, not something to be tossed off lightly & that should not have been done so here. It's probably unrealistic, however, to expect an apology from a man who's unabashedly penned, e.g., the following:

come on, I did my dissertation on pyramid scheme (ponzi scheme).

This sentence alone demonstrates any claim that he possesses in-depth knowledge is risible; a pyramid scheme is not a Ponzi scheme & the two are not properly interchangeable.

Still, I think it would be good to seriously consider discontinuing this venture altogether as ill-advised for all concerned... those who might consider joining, and you yourself as a businessman (especially if you have not thoroughly vetted it with a US attorney steeped in such matters; as smitcompton/Annette indicated, there are regulatory minefields that can trip up anyone).

p.s. TL's response here

Oh, let me guess, TL, you will say I faked the certificate?

Absolutely!!!
So? That can be forged. How does it tie back to the charity? Where's your receipt Ed?

was uncalled-for; especially dispiriting for me to read such nastiness on PS 1st thing on a gorgeous, sunny Monday morning here in NYC.

read my previous post clearly, I am sure you can understand why I put it in the bracket

bracket or no bracket makes no difference as there was no pyramid or ponzi scheme.
Your apology is really inadequate. As the OP you have the right to ask the moderators to delete this thread. I think that would be the right thing to do.

although my conscience still tell me otherwise, I will ask the moderators to delete this thread. do you have any idea how to contact the moderators?

 

[VapidLapid]

Don't do it for me if it would be against your conscience. I know it would be against my conscience if I began a thread with allegations suggesting someone of criminal activity that were false, I could not let that stand and continue to do harm to the accused. I would hope that other issues that were valid and raised in the thread could be brought up in threads of their own merit, and I would hope there would be a more civil tone, without accusations, you know a rational intelligent discussion.

If you decide to, you can contact the moderators by clicking on the "report concern" tab at the top right of every post.

 

[arkieb1]

If we all stop labelling the scheme and arguing about it and referring to the forests there IS still something really unsavory going on here.

The gemstone fund makes promises like "Secure your future supply! (and add 25% per year)"

Statements like "Treated gems are not really gemstones," are grossly misleading.

Say I decided to hand over $10 000. The marketing blurb states after one year I have a credit of $12 500. The fund increases by 25% each year up until year 5 when for an outlay of $10 000 I can now claim any gem on the site worth $30 000.

Lets pretend I am an unsuspecting investor - I pay $10 000. After the first year I have my eye on a gemstone that costs $13 000.00. What the marketing blurb leaves out is that I can probably buy a similar gemstone elsewhere for say $4000.00. But lets say I leave my money in the "investment scheme" for 5 years. I now have a $30 000 credit towards a gemstone of my choice, sounds too good to be true.....

I think of it like this;
What the seller is neglecting to outline is the fact the only gemstones that are able to be purchased start out at a premium price - as he has already mentioned in the top 5% of gem prices to start with. Furthermore he also neglects to mention that over that five year period as the price of gemstones goes up his prices will also go up - I seriously doubt they will remain static or the same over 5 years.

So for a $10 000 outlay what does my $30 000 credit really buy in 5 years? That is the question we should all be asking. Given the fact that we can assume the overall price of stock will rise proportionally each year and not stay static and given there is a 300%, 400% and in some cases 500% or more markup on the price of each stone in the shop, I calculate at best I will be getting a stone worth around $10 000 for my money, possibly one worth around $7000.00 to $9000.00 or less if I choose badly and possibly one worth just over $10 000 if I buy when there is a sale or something (it doesn't state if you can cash these credits in when there is a sale).

If I want to firesale my gemstone or cash in my investment and I go to sell the gem on the open market my gem that I paid $10 000 for has a insurance or over inflated value of $30 000. It sells for $9500.00. So really I have not made 25% compounded over 5 years, I have lost $500.00 (a loss of 5%).

Herein lies the problem. When you start promoting Untreated Gemstones funds as quality investments and make wild promises of "secure your future" and suggest that you can make 25% per year then the whole thing becomes misleading at best and something someone could probably legally challenge at worst.

Is it a Ponzi scheme? Legally no. Is it a Pyramid scheme? Legally no it is not. Is it a sound and wise investment? Gemstones are rarely sound and wise investments.

The dubious part for me is leveraging a well known business with such a scheme, telling porkies in the investment blurb and seemly promising grossly inaccurate investment growth to promote such a scheme, leaving out the fact this business relies on selling their stock at the very top end of prices in the gemstone market.

 

[VapidLapid]

As I said, "I would hope that other issues that were valid and raised in the thread could be brought up in threads of their own merit, and I would hope there would be a more civil tone, without accusations, you know a rational intelligent discussion."

 

[Marlow]

The only problem in this crowd funding plan is that you get back an extremely overpriced gem - not money or a fair priced gem you can sell for good money.

You invest 10000 - get back a bit more then a 15000 Dollar gem after two years and you try to sell it you will get back less money - neither your investment amount nor the profit. And this is dangerous for Ed!!

The investor will offer the gem several times and what do you think will he do if he notice it is worth around 3, 4 or 5000 Dollar???

Believe me that I no the price - I will never "mob" a person I never met and never dealt with.

But on the other side the is a person who wants to invest money - wants to make a profit. You don't no whether it is a rich person and don't care about money - I could be a hard working person who needs the money...

Ponzi and pyramid is nonsense - again, he has enough gems so you get one back - no problem!!

The problem that Ed has to understand that an investors wants to have back the invested money + profit if he/she SELLS the gem!!!
This again will be impossible!!

Do you believe the investor will accept this?

 

[VapidLapid]

Ich würde mir wünschen, dass weitere Themen auf, die gültig und aufgewachsen in den Thread gestellt werden könnte bis in Threads von ihrer eigenen Leistung, und ich möchte hoffen, daß es nicht zu einem weiteren zivilen Ton, ohne Vorwürfe, sie wissen eine vernünftige kluge Diskussion.

 

[Marlow]

I think I understand what you mean but don't use a translator - the translation is absolutely wrong and doesn't make any sence.

But I agree that my post sometimes are very direct and maybe to agressive.

This is an educational consumer forum and we should help each other to be happy with the gems we buy - knowing the treatments and paying a fair price. And it is important and neither fantasie nor mobbing to show if a vendor offers overpriced - extremely overpriced gems. Esp. if there is unethical marketing.

We have many TV seller here telling always the same shit to the people to sell glass filling rubies, coated topaze .....

RARE, Buy them now as long as you can get them !!!

Many fair vendors have problems to sell here in gemshows...

It is not the seller who makes the price - it is the market!! And an educated buyer who knows what she/he buys!

There are enough untreated gems around and to say that any treated gem is not acceptable is very extreme!!! But not the only truth.

An amethyst is "treated" by nature, a green diamond too.

 

[T L]

I just wanted to note something about treated gems: One of the most valuable gems is almost always treated, which fine paraiba tourmaline. It's almost always heated, and it can cost several thousand per carat. The treatment actually enhances the value of this stone that would ordinarily be a more drab color. Treatment is impossible to detect on paraibas, unless you dug it up yourself, so it's a mute point. This brings up the fact that treatment is difficult to detect in other gems as well, like some rubellite for example.

Also, when offering up any "report," (they're NOT certificates, and I wish vendors would stop calling them that), one must remember that these reports are only opinions. They're not always 100% assurance that a gem is not treated. Often times a gem will go to two different labs and get "untreated" and "treated" status, for the same gem. Also not all labs are created equal, as some have a much better reputation than others. That reputation is based on having access to extensive and sophisticated testing equipment and the experience of the gemological staff.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with treated gems, as long as you know what you are getting, and some can be quite valuable. It's all about the type of treatment (minimal vs invasive), its stability, and the result of that treatment, as well as rarity and demand for that particular gem.