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am i mean?

livannie

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I need advice and don't know who to ask. I am married with kids in my late twenties and my parents are divorced. They divorced when I was 20. All my married years, I have felt like I haven't had any family besides my husband and kids. I have 2 younger siblings and their lives have been hard since my parents divorce. They basically had no Dad growing up, just a dad that paid child support. I love them both very much and would do anything for either of them.
My brother came to stay with me from out of state and he brought his girlfriend with him. They live together and are in their early 20s and don't want to get married anytime soon. Before they came they were living with my mom. Well one day my brother called and asked if he could come visit for a month or two. They have stayed with me before for a few months and there was a lot of drama and they broke up and got back together and fought alot and I didn't really want that back again so I told him he could stay at my house sometimes and other family members close to where I live sometimes. But I was excited about seeing him.
So he got here a couple months ago and decided he doesn't want to leave. He has been working with my husband and has stayed at my house the whole 2 months. I have loved having him and half of me doesn't want him to ever leave and the other half of me is being mean and doesn't want him living at my house. My husband loves him and said he could put a kitchen in the basement so they could start living here.
My brother told my mom he doesn't want to find his own place because he doesn't want to pay rent. He drives one of our trucks and my husband pays for the gas. And I wouldn't be complaining about any of this if he was by himself. But the fact he has his girlfriend makes me look at things a whole different way. I like his girlfriend, she is about 7 years younger than me and is gorgeous. And I think a part of me doesn't like this pretty girl walking around my house in revealing clothes around my husband. Like she has worn lingerie before. I know I am an insecure person and need to work on that. But I wouldn't mind any of this if they were just visiting but he has made it sound like he is going to be here years from now.
And I would totally let him stay forever if it was just him. I just feel like once you are living with another person, it's your's and the other person's responsibility to take care of yourselves and eachother. But at the same time, I know if I push him away, I will be sad and hate myself because I have wished ever since I got married I could have some part of my family around. I feel like if I tell him to leave I wont be happy but if he stays things wont be great either.
 

Asscherhalo_lover

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I'm sorry that you're in such a tricky situation. Based on the info you've given it does sound like they're taking advantage of you. Even when I was in my early 20's once I had graduated college I paid rent to my mother and bought my own groceries. Most of my friends (28-29) who still live with their families all pay rent, they are not living for free. If I were in your situation I would try to research if you can do a legally binding lease agreement, rent, expected utilities, whatever you can think of. I know where I live in NY, people living in your house have a lot of rights if they're paying rent or not. If things come to a blow you can't just kick them out, you have to go through the process of evicting them.

I would also go over house conduct rules. What is or is not appropriate to wear in common spaces, cleaning or chores, use of vehicles. I have brothers who are much younger than me, only 11 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if at one point they end up living with me. These are all things I would do if they were to ever live with me. Even though they're family you have to treat it like a roommate situation to keep it fair for all.
 

Loves Vintage

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Ok, first things first. You are not mean. YOU ARE BEING TOO NICE AND YOUR BROTHER IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU because you are letting him.

Of course he doesn't want to pay rent. No one wants to pay rent or a mortgage, but as responsible adults, we do! You and your husband are enabling him. He is 27 years old!! Time to grow up! No house, no car, and no job unless it's through a family member? Why do you think that is? Is your husband seriously willing to put a kitchen in the basement so they can continue to live there rent-free????

Does the girlfriend have a job?

I understand you want a relationship with your younger brother, and you should be able to have that, with him living in his own apartment with his own car. He shouldn't be in your life only if you provide for him. He is not a child!

Have you ever discussed long term life goals with him? I would start by showing him apartment listings so he has a sense of fair market rent in the area. If he wants to live with you, then that will give him an idea of how much he can expect to pay you in rent. Hopefully, your husband will be on the same page as you in this regard. Good luck!
 

zoebartlett

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VL said what I was thinking. You and your husband are letting your brother and his girlfriend take advantage of you. I don't think what your brother is doing is right, but I also think you're sending him and his girlfriend mixed messages. You had originally said he/they could stay for a month or two but it's been much longer and you don't see him making plans to move out anytime soon. Why would he if he lives rent free and if he isn't responsible for contributing to household finances?

I'd recommend giving him a month to find a place of his own or make other arrangements. You could support him by helping him look for an apartment, but I wouldn't continue letting him mooch off you and your husband. You mentioned that your brother could stay with other family members. What do they say about all this?
 

livannie

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Thanks for your replies asscherhalo_lover, Loves Vintage and Zoe. He is 22. I have always felt kind of like a mom to my siblings, because I am a lot older. I think he just doesn't have his life planned out yet. His girlfriend and him are always moving place to place and dreaming about everywhere they want to go and see, they both haven't really started college yet and aren't in a big rush to. They have only been here 2 months and his girlfriend doesn't have a job but I have paid her to help me watch my kids a few times. I feel like they are both kind of lost in life and I think that's why my husband doesn't mind helping them. I sometimes wonder if they truly love eachother, I saw his girlfriend give her phone number to another guy but haven't told my brother about it. And that's why I say I wouldn't mind helping my brother, he could live here as long as he wanted if he was single. But I just feel like it's too much with the 2 of them. When they broke up about a year ago, my brother stayed at my house for a couple months and I loved having him, it was fun and I cried when he left. They got back together and I hope it works out for them but I feel like if they are old enough to act like a married couple, they should find their own little place. A couple times she has made dinner or lunch for my husband and I almost flipped out. I stay at home with our kids and I feel like doing things like that are my job. My husband says I act territorial and I probably do but my house is the one place I want to feel is mine. I have grandparents nearby and they would love to have them stay there but my brother says his girlfriend doesn't like staying there. I know he is a big boy and old enough to take care of himself but I am just afraid of pushing him away.
 

arkieb1

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I hope you don't mind me answering your post. I don't think you are being mean. We have certain number of weeks limit as to how long family stay with us and the times when that has been broken I have gotten fairly annoyed about it..... We had a couple of International backpackers stay with us almost 2 months (one of whom is distantly related to my husband) that were taking advantage of a free place to crash, and that was way too long.

I think couples and families need their own private space. And young people that age need to grow up and stand on their own two feet and realise that the world doesn't owe them anything - sometimes tough love is actually necessary to teach them this. There is probably a reason they don't want to stay at the other family members places - they have it way too good with you. And if you keep handing them everything they will expect more and more from you.

Don't feel guilty tell your husband that you think your own family needs its space and that your brother and his girlfriend are welcome to come visit any time but they really are old enough to accept some responsibilities for themselves, that includes their own living arrangements not sponging off the rest of the family.
 

GliderPoss

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Loves Vintage|1411909688|3758105 said:
Ok, first things first. You are not mean. YOU ARE BEING TOO NICE AND YOUR BROTHER IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU because you are letting him.

Of course he doesn't want to pay rent. No one wants to pay rent or a mortgage, but as responsible adults, we do! You and your husband are enabling him. He is 27 years old!! Time to grow up! No house, no car, and no job unless it's through a family member? Why do you think that is? Is your husband seriously willing to put a kitchen in the basement so they can continue to live there rent-free????

Does the girlfriend have a job?

I understand you want a relationship with your younger brother, and you should be able to have that, with him living in his own apartment with his own car. He shouldn't be in your life only if you provide for him. He is not a child!Have you ever discussed long term life goals with him? I would start by showing him apartment listings so he has a sense of fair market rent in the area. If he wants to live with you, then that will give him an idea of how much he can expect to pay you in rent. Hopefully, your husband will be on the same page as you in this regard. Good luck!



Bolded above - this exactly. He is taking you for a ride... :angryfire:
 

Trekkie

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HotPozzum|1411963505|3758459 said:
Loves Vintage|1411909688|3758105 said:
Ok, first things first. You are not mean. YOU ARE BEING TOO NICE AND YOUR BROTHER IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU because you are letting him.

Of course he doesn't want to pay rent. No one wants to pay rent or a mortgage, but as responsible adults, we do! You and your husband are enabling him. He is 27 years old!! Time to grow up! No house, no car, and no job unless it's through a family member? Why do you think that is? Is your husband seriously willing to put a kitchen in the basement so they can continue to live there rent-free????

Does the girlfriend have a job?

I understand you want a relationship with your younger brother, and you should be able to have that, with him living in his own apartment with his own car. He shouldn't be in your life only if you provide for him. He is not a child!Have you ever discussed long term life goals with him? I would start by showing him apartment listings so he has a sense of fair market rent in the area. If he wants to live with you, then that will give him an idea of how much he can expect to pay you in rent. Hopefully, your husband will be on the same page as you in this regard. Good luck!



Bolded above - this exactly. He is taking you for a ride... :angryfire:

This. Exactly.

I understand what you mean about wanting to help and be there for young siblings and what a pleasure it is to spend time with them. I have a 20 year old brother (our mother is deceased) who lives with me and the hubs. It is sometimes difficult having someone in our space, but the difference is that my brother moved in for a year and will be leaving soon. His goal was to improve his marks so he could get into a good university. He has done that and will soon be moving on.

Under no circumstances would I have allowed him an open ended invitation to stay here with a girlfriend.

You need to stand up to your brother and his girlfriend and tell them it's been nice having them stay but it's time for them to move on. Don't even bring up the lingerie - as disrespectful as that was, bringing it up will make you seem jealous and insecure, and if they pounce on it, it will put you on the back foot.

Get them some applications for university and financial aid and set a date for when you expect them to move out. Where they go is not your problem - 22 is adult.

If they're old enough to enjoy the privileges of acting like a married couple they should be old enough to foot the bill themselves.
 

TooPatient

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Trekkie|1411977114|3758517 said:
HotPozzum|1411963505|3758459 said:
Loves Vintage|1411909688|3758105 said:
Ok, first things first. You are not mean. YOU ARE BEING TOO NICE AND YOUR BROTHER IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU because you are letting him.

Of course he doesn't want to pay rent. No one wants to pay rent or a mortgage, but as responsible adults, we do! You and your husband are enabling him. He is 27 years old!! Time to grow up! No house, no car, and no job unless it's through a family member? Why do you think that is? Is your husband seriously willing to put a kitchen in the basement so they can continue to live there rent-free????

Does the girlfriend have a job?

I understand you want a relationship with your younger brother, and you should be able to have that, with him living in his own apartment with his own car. He shouldn't be in your life only if you provide for him. He is not a child!Have you ever discussed long term life goals with him? I would start by showing him apartment listings so he has a sense of fair market rent in the area. If he wants to live with you, then that will give him an idea of how much he can expect to pay you in rent. Hopefully, your husband will be on the same page as you in this regard. Good luck!



Bolded above - this exactly. He is taking you for a ride... :angryfire:

This. Exactly.

I understand what you mean about wanting to help and be there for young siblings and what a pleasure it is to spend time with them. I have a 20 year old brother (our mother is deceased) who lives with me and the hubs. It is sometimes difficult having someone in our space, but the difference is that my brother moved in for a year and will be leaving soon. His goal was to improve his marks so he could get into a good university. He has done that and will soon be moving on.

Under no circumstances would I have allowed him an open ended invitation to stay here with a girlfriend.

You need to stand up to your brother and his girlfriend and tell them it's been nice having them stay but it's time for them to move on. Don't even bring up the lingerie - as disrespectful as that was, bringing it up will make you seem jealous and insecure, and if they pounce on it, it will put you on the back foot.

Get them some applications for university and financial aid and set a date for when you expect them to move out. Where they go is not your problem - 22 is adult.

If they're old enough to enjoy the privileges of acting like a married couple they should be old enough to foot the bill themselves.

I agree with all posts here!

It would be different if it was just him (or even both of them) and they had a very specific thing they were accomplishing while staying with you (saving for down payment, finishing a semester before transferring to a new school out of area, etc) so there was a fairly firm end date.

I love my brother. We've never really been all that close, but I have had the thought a couple of times over the last few years that maybe he could move in with us for a bit and get his own life going. --He is currently living in my grandparents' basement while my mother is living in a camper in their driveway. He's never lived on his own, has not made any attempt to save (he has a job) to get a life of his own, and has no ambitions to ever do anything more in his life.
DH and I talked and decided that IF he came to us with a specific plan and IF there was a fairly firm end and IF he were to help around the house and IF he were to make progress achieving his plan we MIGHT let him stay here for a fixed time. The last thing we need is to have another person move in who doesn't want anything that isn't just handed to them in life. If we let him, he'd move in here and never grow up. (he's 26)


Your brother is taking advantage of you. You and your DH need to sit down and have a talk. It may be fun for your DH to have your brother around, but it is NOT good for your brother to allow this to continue and it is NOT good for you (you & DH) to allow this to continue. You and your DH need to be on the same page. Period. It is NOT okay for him to go offering to put in a kitchen and let them live with you guys forever unless you and he talked BEFORE making that offer and were both in agreement. (this isn't ordering the wrong kind of pizza -- this is your life and your home!)

Once you are BOTH in agreement, sit down with your brother and his girlfriend. Lay out your expectations. TELL them when they have to move out by or how long they are allowed to stay and what the conditions of their staying are. Give them some time to talk about it alone (a day or two) and TELL them when you will all be sitting down together again to hear if they will be staying (meeting all of your conditions) or not (and have a firm move out date that you TELL them).
Conditions should cover topics including school (attendance, minimum grades, classes (so they don't just take fun art classes and not anything useful), etc), work (get a job that isn't handed out by you and your DH), rent (or at least substantial contribution to groceries), savings (so they can move out on their own by given date -- including something like a monthly or quarterly review where they show you all of their account records to see progress), and expected conduct (this is OUR home, no friends over, no loud music, expected help around the house, where they are/aren't allowed to go (like if they are downstairs maybe they have no reason to be in the upstairs with your room), all should be comfortable).

RE the clothing (or lack of) issue, I would not mention it to them at first. I doubt they'll be willing to meet the conditions of staying with you guys so it won't be an issue since they'll be gone. If you say anything they'll just grab hold of it as the reason why you're "throwing them out" (heard that before from an uncle who lived with his parents until his 40s). I don't see how mentioning it could end well.
That said, if they do end up staying I would make sure to mention minimum dress requirements informally. NOT while she's dressed that way, but maybe she (or he) is wearing something way to short or loose or whatever. Just approach it from the idea that this is your home and for everyone's comfort certain standards need to be met. (I had to have that talk with "A" as she insisted on sitting around with just a towel draped around her and had to have it again when she decided to wear a very loose sweater with no bra (so it hung down when she'd bend to pet a cat or if she gestured with her hand, things would flop out). We aren't super formal here, but a basic level of dress is required!). Call them both out on more minor things.

Do they have a bathroom downstairs? If so, they should have NO reason to come upstairs as anything other than fully clothed. If not, that might be a far better thing to add than a kitchen! (and I would NOT add a kitchen because that makes it a little to permanent)

What was she doing upstairs dressed that way? Did she need water? Or were they wanting some sort of snack? You could always put a mini-refrigerator in so they can keep a few snacks and drinks downstairs.
Eliminate ANY possible excuse.
 

livannie

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Thank you all for your great advice. My brother moved out all his things today and is now staying with my grandparents. He told my mom I was getting too grumpy to be around and he couldn't handle my kids. I didn't have to tell him anything to get him to go, he did it on his own! I was kind of sad because I feel I must have offended him in some way and I don't really know how I did but it is a good thing. He is always telling me I have such an easy life because I get to stay home with my kids and have a husband that pays all the bills and I get tired of hearing it, so I probably have acted rude. There is a bathroom downstairs and a living room and my husband likes to use the downstairs bathroom so goes down there often. My brother wanted me to go down and watch a movie with him once and my other little brother was visiting for a day and my brother's girlfriend came out and sat on the couch in her lingerie, so they were downstairs but I thought it was not appropriate. She has worn dresses where you can tell she is not wearing underwear and I have seen nipples hanging out. I am not trying to complain about her but I just don't like that kind of thing around my kids or husband.
I know he probably wont end up staying with my grandparents very long, he has stayed with them before and my grandma complained they didn't help with anything. I want things to be good for them and want them to be happy in the future but I guess they will eventually learn things for themselves. It's hard because you just wish you could tell them what to do and help them plan out their lives but when I try to tell him things he says why should I take advice from you, you got married young and haven't done anything else in your life. But he will learn someday :rolleyes: I am just glad he chose to leave himself and it wasn't because I told him to.
 

zoebartlett

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I know you meant well by helping your brother, and I didn't mean to sound harsh in my last post. It sounded like you and your husband were very generous to him while he was living with you. It seems like it worked out well though, now that he's moved on. Hopefully he'll help out your grandparents and appreciate their kindness.
 

missy

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livannie, you are the furthest thing from mean! What a generous and warm person you (and your dh) are to have opened up your home to your brother and his girlfriend. I remember when I was younger my parents told me as long as I was in school they would help pay the bills but once I stopped going I was on my own. I agree with that in theory and think your brother needs to either pay rent or at least go back to school and finish his education and find a career so he can support himself (and his family to be).

I am glad the situation has sort of resolved itself on its own but I think your brother needs to get his act together because what he is doing right now sounds like floundering. His life is now and he needs to make something of himself and stop wasting time IMO. I hope it's OK to be offering this advice it's just that I feel being proactive is key and if someone can convince him to get moving on this he would be so much better off in the long run. He cannot live off others for the rest of his life and he is old enough to take responsibility for his life and IMO no one is doing him any favors allowing him to continue living rent free now with him having no future career or life goals in mind.

And as for the girlfriend-totally unacceptable for her to be running around the house half naked. No way is that OK. Sounds like both your brother and his girlfriend don't have the best judgment.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice if it is unwelcome-I mean well.
 

livannie

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Missy, I am thankful for your advice and Zoe you weren't harsh at all. I have tried to talk to him and his girlfriend about their plans for the future and they both say they want to gain 'worldly experience' before getting serious about college or marriage. They want to have as much fun as they can before having a career and settling down. But what they don't realize is they are basically married already, except they don't take care of themselves. His girlfriend hasn't had a job for months and it bothers me that my brother tells me all the time I need to get a job and I have kids that don't even go to school yet that I take care of. I do feel scared for them because time flies by, pretty soon he will be my age and will wonder what happened and why he didn't go to school sooner or find some kind of career for his life. But we all have to learn things our own way. My grandparents could use help though, so I hope he can help them while he is there.
 

momhappy

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Good grief! I never would have put up with that. Your brother was clearly taking advantage of you and I'm glad that it worked out that he left on his own.
By the way, the fact that his GF walked around in lingerie does not make you insecure. It is entirely inappropriate to walk around in lingerie as a guest in someone's home. It made me sad to hear you put the blame on you (saying that you are insecure & needing to work on that, etc.) because that was not about you - it was about the GF and how wildly inappropriate she was in YOUR home. Thanks goodness that situation is over and you can go back to a normal life. Please don't for a minute have regrets - you supported him much more than you should have and you have nothing to feel guilty about.
 

livannie

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Thank you momhappy. I am glad he can help my grandparents right now. I do feel like I act insecure. For instance, when my husband would come home, he would often not even say hi to me and say hi to my brother's girlfriend first. Like walk right past me and into the room she is in and say hi. And it happened more than once. I know he was just being polite and it's something that shouldn't upset me at all, but it did. When I would tell him how I felt, he would say I am crazy. I think I can be too needy. I think it might stem from my parents divorce. But I know I can be jealous over little things. Her walking around in lingerie is not a little thing, but other little things would upset me too. That's why I think every married couple needs their own space, if not, unnecessary problems could occur. And being married can be hard enough when it's just the two of you.
 

momhappy

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^And why shouldn't it upset you if he walked right past you to say hi to her? Those are your feelings and your entitled to them. I don't want to start trouble, but I don't care for the actions of your husband. First, he insults you by walking right past you and then he insults you by telling you you're crazy when you share your feelings with him. It sounds to me like your husband was lacking some sensitivity in those instances. For what it's worth, your examples don't make you sound needy, or jealous, or insecure - they make you sound like a normal human being. I think that your reactions/feelings were completely justified and I don't think that you need to work on those feelings/reactions as much as your husband needs to work on being more respectful and sensitive. Just my .02 cents =)
 

livannie

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Thanks for agreeing with me momhappy. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks he should be more sensitive. If things were the other way around and some guy was living at our house, I don't think he would be happy if I did the same to him. But I guess he can't see that.
 

momhappy

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I hope that things improve now that your brother has moved on - I wish you the best =)
 
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