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They should have just forced the women to marry these men

kenny

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... then the plane could have taken off on time.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/30/orthodox-jewish-flight-delay_n_5902078.html?cps=gravity

"One person's requirement for religious accommodation can seem all-too-much like discrimination to another.

An El Al flight from New York to Tel Aviv last week encountered delays when several ultra-orthodox Jewish men refused to take their seats next to women over religious objections.

Ultra-orthodox Judaism forbids physical contact between men and women unless they are first-degree relatives or married to one another.
In an airplane with close quarters, maintaining such separation is not easy.

As orthodox and secular Jewish passengers boarded the flight scheduled to arrive at Ben Gurion airport on the morning of Rosh Hashanah, the men began asking women seated next to them to move, sometimes even offering compensation for seat changes, Ynet News reports.

One passenger, identified as Galit, was sitting next to her husband when an ultra-orthodox, or haredi, man asked her to move.
But she refused to change seats, Galit told Ynet:

Some of the haredi men spent much of the eleven-hour flight standing and praying in the aisle, which caused general commotion and made it difficult to reach the restroom, Galit said.

The experience of Galit is not unique.
Author Elana Maryles Sztokman wrote about a similar experience in a piece published on The Huffington Post:

The plane took off 20 minutes late because an ultra-Orthodox man was negotiating with passengers so as not to have to sit next to a woman -- me -- on the 11-hour flight.
While the airline told Ynet its crews try to do "the best they can to address the needs and requests of all our travelers," it is unclear in this case whose needs would be best accommodated -- the haredi men who felt religiously mandated to uphold sex segregation or the women who felt they were unfairly "bullied and harassed."

A Change.org petition started on Monday by several women in the Jewish community calls on El Al to prevent future harassment of female passengers on its flights.

The petition states:
Why does El Al Airlines permit female passengers to be bullied, harassed, and intimidated into switching seats which they rightfully paid for and were assigned to by El Al Airlines? One person's religious rights does not trump another person's civil rights.

As a possible solution the petition suggests the airline reserve several rows of sex segregated seating where passengers may pay an extra fee to reserve seats and thus avoid future delays."
 

kenny

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I say if you can't sit next to women then charter a plane, boat or a train.

Public transportation is public.
Women are members of the public.
Get over it. :roll:

It makes me so angry when people think their beliefs should shove the rest of us around.
 

missy

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

kenny|1412285216|3760849 said:
I say if you can't sit next to women then charter a plane, boat or a train.

Public transportation is public.
Women are members of the public.
Get over it. :roll:

I completely agree. That is very rude of these men. They should get their own plane if those are their rules or book and pay for the whole section of seats so they can be isolated.


One person's religious rights does not trump another person's civil rights.
This says it all.
 

movie zombie

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

you said it, Kenny!
 

VRBeauty

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

This is El Al airlines, Israel's flag airlines, and it already makes some concessions to Jewish restrictions. Per Wiki: "El Al in principle offers only kosher in-flight meals and does not fly passengers on the Jewish Sabbath or religious holidays." Ben Gurion airport, which is El Al's home base, makes similar accommodations. I was once landed there late on a Friday night due to a glitch and decided to stay at the airport there overnight, only to find that there was no bus and train service going into or out of the airport on Saturday. (We were able to rent a car, though.) Oh, and the coffee bar was on limited service, offering coffee only periodically when the pre-programmed coffee brewer did its thing.

That said, I agree that the best solution is to offer segregated seating for those who adhere to those restrictions.
 

kenny

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

So we need Christian airlines, atheist airlines, Islamic airlines etc.

Wouldn't wanna get near anyone different from me. :roll: :knockout: :knockout: :knockout:
 

movie zombie

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

should have refunded their ticket $ and left w/o them. :devil:
 

kenny

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

movie zombie|1412289010|3760905 said:
should have refunded their ticket $ and left w/o them. :devil:


Better yet, throw the arrogant, misogynist, clueless, jerks off the jet at cruising altitude.

I really have NO patience for people who think their religion applies to non-members.

Puuuuuhleeze! :roll:
 

OreoRosies86

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

You can't be on a plane and cause a commotion for any reason. Why not just kick them off and make them fend for themselves?
 

kenny

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Elliot86|1412289463|3760914 said:
You can't be on a plane and cause a commotion for any reason. Why not just kick them off and make them fend for themselves?

Because according to the link VRBeauty posted El Al is kinda like a Jewish airline, sort of, but not really. :???:

IMO the minute they take money from a gentile passenger the preferential treatment must stop, discrimination must stop, and equality must replace that shit.
 

arkieb1

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Perhaps they already do that and once they fill then the passengers have to sit anywhere in which case this should be clearly disclosed at the time of the ticket sale - so therefore when they buy their tickets the men are made fully aware if they do not pay for a seat in the blocked male only section then they will possibly be sitting next to women. And if they then get on a plane and throw a hissy fit about it and refuse to sit down the whole way - (which is dangerous not only at take off and landing but also if the hostess doesn't have free access to the whole plane if there is an emergency) then they should be asked to get off the plane.
 

Calliecake

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Kenny, I've loved every one of your comments on this thread!

I have changed seats so a husband and wife can sit together or for a child to sit next to a parent. I think if I were being told the reason I was being asked to change my seat was because I am a woman. I'd probably refuse to leave my seat.
 

OreoRosies86

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

kenny|1412291116|3760933 said:
Elliot86|1412289463|3760914 said:
You can't be on a plane and cause a commotion for any reason. Why not just kick them off and make them fend for themselves?

Because according to the link VRBeauty posted El Al is kinda like a Jewish airline, sort of, but not really. :???:

IMO the minute they take money from a gentile passenger the preferential treatment must stop, discrimination must stop, and equality must replace that shit.

Agreed, 100%
 

Tacori E-ring

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

arkieb1|1412293952|3760953 said:
I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Y

Agreed. I don't think it is fair to judge or make fun of someone's religious beliefs but if this an issue creating segregated rows seems like a logical solution. For the record I have been asked to move to accommodate families. Not much different if you consider they did not pay for their lap child's seat and lucked out that it wasn't a full flight. I did not mind and I would not mind switching seats if the passenger had religious beliefs which forbid him to sit next to a female. I don't take that stuff personally.
 

Maria D

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I'm about as anti-religion as it gets- but I put the blame on the airline, not these men. It seems like the airline wants it both ways - appealing to the hard-core fundamentalists with their concessions to religion, but they still want to fill all the seats.
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Tacori E-ring|1412297443|3760981 said:
arkieb1|1412293952|3760953 said:
I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Y

Agreed. I don't think it is fair to judge or make fun of someone's religious beliefs but if this an issue creating segregated rows seems like a logical solution. For the record I have been asked to move to accommodate families. Not much different if you consider they did not pay for their lap child's seat and lucked out that it wasn't a full flight. I did not mind and I would not mind switching seats if the passenger had religious beliefs which forbid him to sit next to a female. I don't take that stuff personally.

How about segregated seats for blacks and whites? Still think that's kosher?

I think it is entirely fair to judge someone's religious beliefs. I respect a person's rights to believe what they want, they do not have the right to unfettered respect for their beliefs.
 

Tacori E-ring

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

JaneSmith|1412303058|3761028 said:
Tacori E-ring|1412297443|3760981 said:
arkieb1|1412293952|3760953 said:
I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Y

Agreed. I don't think it is fair to judge or make fun of someone's religious beliefs but if this an issue creating segregated rows seems like a logical solution. For the record I have been asked to move to accommodate families. Not much different if you consider they did not pay for their lap child's seat and lucked out that it wasn't a full flight. I did not mind and I would not mind switching seats if the passenger had religious beliefs which forbid him to sit next to a female. I don't take that stuff personally.

How about segregated seats for blacks and whites? Still think that's kosher?

I think it is entirely fair to judge someone's religious beliefs. I respect a person's rights to believe what they want, they do not have the right to unfettered respect for their beliefs.

Really? Wow. so not the same thing.
 

movie zombie

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Tacori E-ring|1412304685|3761043 said:
JaneSmith|1412303058|3761028 said:
Tacori E-ring|1412297443|3760981 said:
arkieb1|1412293952|3760953 said:
I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Y

Agreed. I don't think it is fair to judge or make fun of someone's religious beliefs but if this an issue creating segregated rows seems like a logical solution. For the record I have been asked to move to accommodate families. Not much different if you consider they did not pay for their lap child's seat and lucked out that it wasn't a full flight. I did not mind and I would not mind switching seats if the passenger had religious beliefs which forbid him to sit next to a female. I don't take that stuff personally.

How about segregated seats for blacks and whites? Still think that's kosher?

I think it is entirely fair to judge someone's religious beliefs. I respect a person's rights to believe what they want, they do not have the right to unfettered respect for their beliefs.

Really? Wow. so not the same thing.

it is in my mind's eye.........
people didn't want to use the same toilet seats a black person set on.
people didn't want to sit next to a black person at the lunch counter.
and, OMG, heaven forbid they sit next to each other on a bus.
 

Tacori E-ring

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I guess I see a religious tradition different than hating someone based on skin color. I am not an orthodox Jew but I don't believe it comes from hate as traditional racism has. Many cultures have very conservative ideas on dress and "co-mingling." My understanding is these men don't hate women, but have very strict views. This was not an American airline and reading the articles, it doesn't seem like their requests were new to the airline. This article just has one side to the story.None of us were there and know how the requests were made. Again, I would have switched seats, but that's just me.
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Groups of Ultra-Orthodox Jewish protesters have been picketing a new girls' school.

They say their religious sense of modesty is offended by the sight of the girls and their families passing their homes on their way to school, even though the families themselves are also from an orthodox community.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018




There's also that lovely prayer, where they thank their god for not making them a woman. And the part about how unclean menstuating women are. Ew! Girl cooties!
 

movie zombie

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

additionally, there was a case where one of them threw acid on a young girl for not being "modest".

while I respect their right to worship in the way they see fit, I do not think they have the right to force their religious beliefs and way of life onto everyone they come into contact with.
 

AprilBaby

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

When my first son was born I lived in an orthodox community in NJ. Mind you I am Christian. After I delivered, I was sent to a double room where my roommate was orthodox. She had the window. I was stuck behind a curtain 24 hrs a day because I was repulsive to my roomies husband. My head wasn't covered and I was goyum. Dammit, she should have been stuck behind the curtain and I should have gotten the window!!! 1983
As soon as my husband was offered a transfer we booked out of NJ!

I am in no way anti semetic, in fAct my best friend there was indeed orthodox but not strict. From her I learned many traditions I respect today. In this case, my only sin was being a goyum woman.
 

ruby59

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Is this bash the Jews day? Who are we going to go after tomorrow?
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I'll 'go after' anyone and any group who uses their religion as a tool to oppress and disenfranchise women (and LGBT, people of colour, atheists, apostates, other religions, children, etc, etc).
 

ruby59

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Then I guess you will be going after EVERYONE as every group as its zealots.
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I put 'go after' in scare quotes because that's what those words deserve. I'm talking with a few people about an example of religiously motivated misogyny, an issue that effects billions of people globally, and you think this is wrong?
The entire Haredim sect of Judaism is not a bunch of fringe zealots.
 

ruby59

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

What is wrong is you making judgments about how other people should live and commenting about religious traditions you obviously know nothing about other than what you are picking up in an article or two? Gross perceptions about menstruation? If you knew anything about it you would understand the tradition behind it.

You mentioned above you are not anti-semetic. Sorry, but your posts just reek of it.
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

What is wrong is treating women as second class citizens, spitting on girls walking to school, treating normal bodily functions as unclean, etc.

Edited to add: nice of you to edit your own post after I replied, and not put it as an addendum.
I have actually made no claims about not being an anti-semite. You haven't been reading for comprehension. Please do not try to just call me names, let us instead discuss the topic at hand.
It is so easy to just label a person as an anti-semite or islamophobe to dodge the valid arguments made against the misogyny inherent in these, and other, religions.
 

ruby59

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

First of all in Judasim, women are considered the "heart of the home." Hardly second class citizens. Secondly, I can assure you that those who spit on those girls are no more typical of Judaism than Isis is of Muslims.

As far as the period of time around menstruation, many couples refrain from intercourse during that time of the month. And the Mikveh, or religious baths, is a nice ceremony for those who want to follow it. Hardly, gross, as you describe it.
 

JaneSmith

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Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

The heart of the home. Nice. Keeping women in the home is a great way of keeping them out of everywhere else.

If people do not want to have intercourse while they are menstruating, that is cool. Having it forbidden because of some imagined unclean factor is not. I'm sure the bath is very nice, and I never characterized the bath as being gross, and you are being disingenuous to imply it.
 
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