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packrat

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Dangit, my brother called and I got sidetracked.

I've only heard the song a few times, never the full song, usually just when I'm clicking around the radio stations the 2 minutes it takes me to get anywhere in town. Once on FB, someone had posted it as a "positive message" to women but I only managed a little bit before giving it the narrow eye and clicking out.

I'm not bothered by skinny bitches. The N word is the only word I'd not sing along to, and I can't think of a song offhand that has it in it that I listen to. I grew up in the PMRC days and had my parents freaking the heck out over the music I listened to, convinced it was going to turn me into a devil worshipper (cuz yanno, ozzy) or kill myself (um..ozzy) or kill other people, and trying to not roll my eyes when they'd sit down w/the cassette inserts and obsess over the lyrics. (See your Mother-put to death-see your Mother die???!!!! Do you want your mom to DIE? You like a band that tells you to kill your mother??? OMG hello it's freaking MOTHER EARTH cut it the hell out, it's about how we're ruining the EARTH get a freaking grip)

Sooo I am pretty loosy goosy w/lyrics. Anthrax's Startin up a Posse springs to mind. It's naughty. Don't go lookin for it cuz you'll not like it.
 

kenny

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Huh?
Why is anyone bringing up the N-word in a thread about a pop song?

Clearly it follows that this woman is also responsible for 6 million Holocaust murders. :roll:

_445.png
 

packrat

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I'm guessing b/c of the term skinny bitches and that it is degrading to women? B/c the song is being touted as something that tells women to be proud of who they are and what they look like and then turns around and calls some women skinny bitches? Cuz it's not nice to call people names?
 

kenny

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packrat|1411874654|3758009 said:
I'm guessing b/c of the term skinny bitches and that it is degrading to women? B/c the song is being touted as something that tells women to be proud of who they are and what they look like and then turns around and calls some women skinny bitches? Cuz it's not nice to call people names?


... but the N-word?
 

packrat

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Well it's not nice to call people the N word. I think it just is a progression to talk about calling someone a skinny bitch to bringing up other words that degrade women, and other groups of people. and that it seems to be ok to use terms like bitch, skinny bitch, C word, slut, whore whatever, to degrade women. And it's kinda ironic to have someone sing about loving your body etc, and then turning around and calling thin women skinny bitches. Maybe it's supposed to be tongue in cheek? I dunno.
 

kenny

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packrat|1411875336|3758016 said:
Well it's not nice to call people the N word. I think it just is a progression to talk about calling someone a skinny bitch to bringing up other words that degrade women, and other groups of people. and that it seems to be ok to use terms like bitch, skinny bitch, C word, slut, whore whatever, to degrade women. And it's kinda ironic to have someone sing about loving your body etc, and then turning around and calling thin women skinny bitches. Maybe it's supposed to be tongue in cheek? I dunno.

Oh I dunno.
Maybe there could possibly be a tad of resentment from billions billions and billions of insults against anyone larger than size 2.
 

packrat

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I 'spose! The skinny bitch issue doesn't bother me, I didn't even hear it in the song. I raise my eyebrow at someone being made fun of (quite possibly over something they have no control over) and then finding it ok to make fun of someone else (quite possibly over something they have no control over). Like it's ok to make fun of someone for something if you're made fun of for something too, rather than taking the high road and acknowledging that it sucks to be made fun of and since I know how it feels and it sucks, I wouldn't want to extend that to someone else. Jerk-ish-ness begets jerk-ish-ness and all that. People should just be nice. But that's just me living in ain'tnevergonnahappenland.
 

momhappy

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^For me, it's not so much about the actual lyrics (the term "skinny bitch") - it's more about how it's used in this particular song. If your'e going to sing about how it's okay to be curvier (and get kudos for doing so), then it should be okay to be skinny too. It should be possible to promote positive images of curvier bodies without criticizing others. This is about size-shaming (no matter what your size) and that's sad.
 

Calliecake

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I couldn't agree more with Mom Happy and Packrat's last statements. I just don't like the meanness.

I understand what your saying too Kenny. I realize how awful all the fat shaming is as well. I just wish we were teaching girls to love their bodies regardless of what size they are.
 

movie zombie

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actually, that is the message I took from the song, Callie, as she does say it outright towards the end.

in this day and age the word "bitch" isn't used negatively in the same way it used to always be. a lot has to do with intonation and with how well one knows the other.
 

Calliecake

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You are probably right Movie Zombie. I just watched the video again and I'm either missing something or am just overly sensitive (which I'm sure the later is the problem). I know you're also right about bitch not being used negatively all the time.
 

kenny

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There are many cultures in America.
Not everyone wants to embrace the culture of "nice white polite educated upper-income folks".
This is astonishing to many who know only that culture.
In fact some are no more aware of their culture being nothing more than a culture and only one of many, than fish are aware of water.

My SO is latino, but was raised in a ghetto that is only around 5% latino and maybe 2% white or asian.
His family still lives there, and they've picked up the culture and language that has always surrounded them.
The culture is toooooootally different in a zillion ways.

I get it and don't get my panties in a wad when family talk to me in that way.
Actually, it is a compliment.
It means I'm accepted into the group.
In that culture it is usual to talk/behave in ways that would be unacceptable in 'Nice-land' America.
Nice wealthy white people think their rules rule.

But in some American cultures terms like bitch, and worse, are accepted to not be insults.
It's just how ya talk.

It's much like how a Christian might say to me, an atheist, "If God wills then ... XYZ."
Similarly, I try to focus on how they mean well and in their culture, ghetto or Christian, such language is seen as a good thing.

I may not adopt 'bitch' as a term of endearment but i DO see the Internet/Youtube exposing us to different cultures with their own social customs and language as a good thing.
 

purplesparklies

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I think we decide how we take things. I have chosen to adjust my perspective when I feel myself projecting a perspective of negativity on things To which I am exposed. I choose to take things in the spirit in which I believe they were intended even when something about the vernacular may tweak a sensitive spot for me. The sensitivity is my problem.

As for the lyrics, immediately following the skinny bitch comment she says "I'm just playing" and I think she is just playing. It's tongue in cheek. We have all heard someone referred to as a skinny bitch. We all also know someone who is quite thin but comments about being fat. The lyrics are telling everyone to accept themselves! Regard,less of size. If you are skinny then you can choose to feel insulted by the term skinny bitch or not. I know many skinny women. Some are bitches and some are not. Thankfully, those with whom I choose to spend time do have a sense of humor and can appreciate the song as it is intended. They recognize that there is infinitely more fat shaming in this world than there is negative sentiment about skinny. Women of all ages and sizes have embraced the song and sing it loudly and proudly as they -shake it, shake it like they're supposed to do- in my class. ;-)

If the media would quit with the photoshopping and the perpetuating of an unattainable body image, the world would be a better place.
 

lambskin

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If only someone would call me 'skinny' I don't care what they say after it! :lol:
 

junebug17

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lambskin|1411947879|3758325 said:
If only someone would call me 'skinny' I don't care what they say after it! :lol:

Good one lambskin! :lol:
 

missy

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junebug17 said:
lambskin|1411947879|3758325 said:
If only someone would call me 'skinny' I don't care what they say after it! :lol:


Good one lambskin! :lol:

Haha, that is a good one! :lol:
 

packrat

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London is currently listening to it on youtube on the tv. A lyrics only version rather than the video. And she thinks it's about band instruments.

The music reminds me of pin up girls. Those big curls and red lips and polka dots. Fun. I like that.
 

missy

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Hey packrat, I forgot to say-I love eighties music too. :wavey:
 

purplesparklies

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lambskin said:
If only someone would call me 'skinny' I don't care what they say after it! :lol:

HA! [emoji106] Me too!
 

AGBF

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missy|1411831786|3757800 said:
Tongue in cheek or not. It's not OK when men use the word bitch (or cunt to name a few) to refer to women (whether joking or not) and it's not OK from my perspective for women to use it either even if in jest because it perpetuates its use. Just as it's not OK to use the word n*****r. Whether black or white I find it offensive no matter the person using it though I understand there is a difference I still hate its use. I know both words can be used as a term of endearment but I find nothing endearing about either.

I know I don't have the stamina for another thread about linguistics, but I think this is an issue about linguistics (unfortunately). When I was teaching eighth grade English I taught To Kill A Mockingbird and my students didn't want to say outloud or hear me say the word "nigger". Yet it was part of the literature and part of the reason we were studying the book.

Now young black men have reclaimed the word as a means of empowerment and want to use it among themselves, and to use it exclusively, to show their power over it.

My daughter and her friends, much to my dismay sometimes call each other, "bitch" to try to seem cool. Since my daughter was raised in an upper middle class home I find it affected in her case, but she is trying to fit in with her friends, who speak this way because everyone in their social group does.

Taking a stand against these words as some members of the community grab onto them to use them as a means to gain empowerment is futile.

AGBF
 

monarch64

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Deb, I think you've touched on something really important--again, vernacular/evolution of language.

Does anyone here remember a book titled Skinny Bitch? It was published several years ago. Same sort of discussion came about.

I posted earlier in this thread that the idea was a marketing tactic. I really think that's all it is. Simply meant to incite drama and discussion and therefore publicity. We are all feeding into this by even giving it a second thought.

I happened to take a drive today and had the local pop radio station on, which I don't often do. The program playing was hosted by Ryan Seacrist (sp?). It used to be The Weekly Top 40 hosted by Kasey Kasem. Anyway, his synapsis for this song was that her message was definitely not intended to be an insult towards thin women. It was a very canned speech, and it brought me back to this discussion here. It's so intriguing how media spins everything to generate views/clicks/etc. Kenny mentioned earlier in response to a post of mine that any publicity, bad or good, is good publicity. It's so true.

ETA:

Meanwhile, Sam Smith isn't backed by a choir, as it sounds. He recorded himself standing in each would-be choir member's spot in a studio, his voice, as backing vocals. Very interesting, and actually pretty amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB-5XG-DbAA This song is also on the "top 40" currently.

And then there's Colbie Caillat with her song, Try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXoZLPSw8U8 Entirely different sound, but similar message to Meghan Trainor's. Both of these songs have been posted here in Hangout, I believe, over the last few weeks. They're all good. What I pay attention to these days is not the message, but the music. Sam Smith's wins by a freaking landslide.
 

missy

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The N word has deep ties throughout history and I realize it doesn't just symbolize oppression, racism and hatred but can also symbolize solidarity and brotherhood.

Also throughout time women were thought to be incapable of accomplishing what men could do and treated as second class citizens no matter the era. And along came the disparaging words wench, C word, bitch etc. Women have been enslaved for thousands of years and the oppression of women is blind to race and done by men (and women) of all races and religions.


IMO one of the biggest challenges we face is the lack of respect we give to each other regardless of race, nationality, gender, religion. We need to think about the histories of the words we use. I get that they are not offensive when used by certain groups in certain ways but based on their history it makes me cringe nonetheless based on their history. I hear young men on the subway calling each other the "N" word and I understand it can be a term of endearment just as women calling each other Bitch can be. But it makes me sad.

Deb, I agree when you are teaching a book like To Kill A Mockingbird that is when it is critical to use the word "nigger". The point is to teach history as it really happened so the evil doesn't repeat and continue. Not to sugar coat and "white" wash it. Teach it in all its truth for a better future.

But I also agree with you Deb in that it is impossible to take a successful stand against these words. Just sharing my feeling on the topic and not expecting to change anyone's mind.
 

OreoRosies86

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So I just watched it. Took two points away:

Have confidence in your body (unless you are a stick, ew).

Guys like tits and ass, no one wants to get in bed with a girl who has "nothing to hold onto."

I am overweight, but this song didn't empower me. It more than anything annoyed me that body shaming is a thing we do casually. No one should be told that they are too thin to be considered sexy. No one should be told to "wear clothes that fit" and cover up. Want a bikini body? Put a bikini on your body. Want to get attention from men? Hold value in your intelligence and humor, not your butt.
 

OreoRosies86

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Double post
 

OreoRosies86

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JulieN|1411749839|3757395 said:
I liked this song too. For about a day. It was catchy. Until I realized how terible in so many ways the song and video is.

1) White dancer grabs black dancer's butt.
2) Sings something about "skinny bitches." No need to to bash skinny women to make fat women feel better.
3) Large guy dancing? He needs a larger shirt. Putting someone in ill-fitting clothes out there for the world to see is not giving him dignity.
4) Song has clear influences of doo-wop and classic R&B, the style of the video (like the clothes they are wearing and other cues in the video) is mostly 60s influence, which is an uncomfortable reminder back to the day when white artists would cover a song that is doing well on the R&B chart, and then take it to the top of the pop chart. I think cultural appropriation is fine, but don't claim you're "bringing booty back" in the same breath.
5) Something "skinny bitches." I feel really uncomfortable with singing that line.

I wasn't a fan of the video, but as an overweight female, the "cover up" sentiments (to preserve our dignity of all things) really grinds my gears. Maybe he prefers a smaller shirt because it moves easier while he dances circles around everyone else. Maybe heavier people don't want to wear an XXL tee shirt on a 90 degree day because they don't have toned arms or abs. Maybe people should wear whatever they are comfortable in and everyone else can just get over it. I was also no huge fan of GIRLS on HBO but that beach episode where Lena Dunham is in a bikini the whole time was great. Cellulite, pudge, and all. She wanted to wear a bikini, it didn't matter if she fit the societal body requirements to do so. The more I think about it, the happier his short tee shirt makes me
 

Calliecake

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Elliot86|1411994765|3758574 said:
So I just watched it. Took two points away:

Have confidence in your body (unless you are a stick, ew).

Guys like tits and a$$, no one wants to get in bed with a girl who has "nothing to hold onto."

I am overweight, but this song didn't empower me. It more than anything annoyed me that body shaming is a thing we do casually. No one should be told that they are too thin to be considered sexy. No one should be told to "wear clothes that fit" and cover up. Want a bikini body? Put a bikini on your body. Want to get attention from men? Hold value in your intelligence and humor, not your butt.


Thank you Elliott so much for your post and thank up you for understanding body shaming happens if you are thin as well. I felt awful after reading Purple Sparkle's post. I was at a wake a few months ago and one of the woman I had not seen in three years spent 20 minutes tell me how terrible I look (in those exact words), how I used to be pretty, and on and on. It was extremely hard not to feel bad, especially since I had gained 3 pounds since the last time she had seen me. I could care less what anyone weighs.

Purple Sparkle, I really do have a sense of humor. I have no problem laughing at myself. I'm a klutz so believe me there are plenty of opportunities to do so. I also think I'm a kind person and that means more to me than what any scale says.
 

ericad

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For the record, in the song she says "skinny bitches" then follows it with "nah, I'm just playing, I know y'all think you're fat, but every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top."

So she's saying that skinny bitches are perfect too, and that all women are victim to body shaming. "Skinny bitches" is an expression that curvy ladies use in jest - I say it to my thin friends and we laugh. It's a thing - not meant to be a slam. Like when I joke about how more robust women will inherit the earth when the apocalypse comes because we have the bulk to pull a plow and get crap done, and "skinny bitches" will perish. Then they joke about how us curvy ladies will be the first to get eaten because we're fleshier and run slower.

When I hear the song, I think the message is that women need to love their bodies for what they are. And, since society as a whole generally promotes thinness in women at any cost (look at the diet industry, beauty industry, fashion industry, etc.), yes, it's geared more at women embracing their natural curves because women larger than a size 2 ARE being victimized by these industries far more than thin women.

No, it's not ok to put down naturally thin women either - body shaming is wrong no matter who it's aimed at. Is a pop song going to get me to change my self image? Nah. But it could influence young girls, and that's cool.

The one part of the song I totally despise, though, is that it's good to be curvy because that's what boys like. I want my daughter to love herself and be the healthiest self she can be FOR HER, and not because it appeals to men. After all, isn't that what the fashion and beauty industries are constantly stuffing down our throats? To look a certain way TO PLEASE OTHERS. Isn't that what the song is supposed to be against in the first place?
 

missy

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ericad|1412089330|3759197 said:
For the record, in the song she says "skinny bitches" then follows it with "nah, I'm just playing, I know y'all think you're fat, but every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top."

So she's saying that skinny bitches are perfect too, and that all women are victim to body shaming. "Skinny bitches" is an expression that curvy ladies use in jest - I say it to my thin friends and we laugh. It's a thing - not meant to be a slam. Like when I joke about how more robust women will inherit the earth when the apocalypse comes because we have the bulk to pull a plow and get crap done, and "skinny bitches" will perish. Then they joke about how us curvy ladies will be the first to get eaten because we're fleshier and run slower.

When I hear the song, I think the message is that women need to love their bodies for what they are. And, since society as a whole generally promotes thinness in women at any cost (look at the diet industry, beauty industry, fashion industry, etc.), yes, it's geared more at women embracing their natural curves because women larger than a size 2 ARE being victimized by these industries far more than thin women.

No, it's not ok to put down naturally thin women either - body shaming is wrong no matter who it's aimed at. But thin women have to see that non-thin women do bear the brunt of the abuse, so I'm totally ok with anything people can do to try and restore healthy body image in young women and girls. Is a pop song going to get me to change my self image? Nah. But it could influence young girls, and that's cool.

The one part of the song I totally despise, though, is that it's good to be curvy because that's what boys like. I want my daughter to love herself and be the healthiest self she can be FOR HER, and not because it appeals to men. After all, isn't that what the fashion and beauty industries are constantly stuffing down our throats? To look a certain way TO PLEASE OTHERS. Isn't that what the song is supposed to be against in the first place?

I completely agree erica. THAT should be the message. Love yourself, be all that you can be, for YOU and not to please anyone else. I missed that part of the song and you are right. That's the healthiest and most critical point and I wish more people would embrace that message.
 

momhappy

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ericad|1412089330|3759197 said:
For the record, in the song she says "skinny bitches" then follows it with "nah, I'm just playing, I know y'all think you're fat, but every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top."

So she's saying that skinny bitches are perfect too, and that all women are victim to body shaming. "Skinny bitches" is an expression that curvy ladies use in jest - I say it to my thin friends and we laugh. It's a thing - not meant to be a slam. Like when I joke about how more robust women will inherit the earth when the apocalypse comes because we have the bulk to pull a plow and get crap done, and "skinny bitches" will perish. Then they joke about how us curvy ladies will be the first to get eaten because we're fleshier and run slower.

When I hear the song, I think the message is that women need to love their bodies for what they are. And, since society as a whole generally promotes thinness in women at any cost (look at the diet industry, beauty industry, fashion industry, etc.), yes, it's geared more at women embracing their natural curves because women larger than a size 2 ARE being victimized by these industries far more than thin women.

No, it's not ok to put down naturally thin women either - body shaming is wrong no matter who it's aimed at. But thin women have to see that non-thin women do bear the brunt of the abuse, so I'm totally ok with anything people can do to try and restore healthy body image in young women and girls. Is a pop song going to get me to change my self image? Nah. But it could influence young girls, and that's cool.

The one part of the song I totally despise, though, is that it's good to be curvy because that's what boys like. I want my daughter to love herself and be the healthiest self she can be FOR HER, and not because it appeals to men. After all, isn't that what the fashion and beauty industries are constantly stuffing down our throats? To look a certain way TO PLEASE OTHERS. Isn't that what the song is supposed to be against in the first place?

Yeah, I have friends that call me skinny bitch too (in jest) and yes, we laugh it off, but you know what? I still think that it's tacky & a bit rude. I don't call my curvy friend "fat bitch" because clearly, that would be incredibly rude, so I don't think it's too much to ask to expect the same sort of respect. The skinny jokes may just be jokes, but it perpetuates the body-shaming culture and makes it more acceptable.
I think for me, it's the overall tone of the song that rubs me the wrong way. For example, the "stick figure silicone Barbie Doll" lyrics that imply that if your stick thin, then you must be fake…
I completely agree with you about the message it sends in regards to what boys like - some boys like curves, some don't. Women don't need to feel pressured to live up to the standard of what men like (or what we're told they like).
 

ericad

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When she says that, though, she's saying that she won't change herself to become a "stick figure silicone barbie doll" so "if that's what you're into then go ahead and move along."

She won't change herself into the "industry" (fashion, music, beauty, etc.) ideal, which unfortunately is still to be very thin with huge breasts - so unattainable, in fact, that even models who already meet that criteria are being Photoshopped to ridiculous proportions.

She's not saying that it's ugly or wrong to be thin, or have implants, or whatever. She's saying that she doesn't fit that mold that most women are being pushed into, and she's not going to play that game. Will thin women with breast implants who resemble Barbie be offended? I guess.

At the end of the day, whenever you promote one thing, and mention the alternate thing for contrast, those in the alternate group will be offended. So do we distill everything down in order to be PC? I see people railing against the "PC Police" all the time. I don't know what the right answer is, honestly, but we can't have it both ways.

As for "skinny bitches", when my friends and I use the term, it's poking fun at the way the term is used by those who actually use it seriously. It's tongue in cheek. "Fat bitches" isn't an expression in the same way as "skinny bitches". Why is "skinny bitches" a thing? Because being curvy is currently trending. That's all. And it's not even about skinny versus fat. Those are extremes. I'm not skinny or fat. Meghan Trainor isn't fat. I don't even think she's plus sized. So when I tease my thin friends for being skinny bitches, they give as good as they get - I've got junk in my trunk, and we routinely contemplate the efficacy of my milkshake. Heck, I've even described diamonds as being "chunky" and having "junk in their trunk" - maybe I've been offending people too. Are we all totally insensitive or have we, as a society, gotten hyper-sensitive?
 
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