Krugman, the Courtesan Class, and [re]Commodification

[Circe]

Interesting opsicle from Paul Krugman, in which he says, "Thomas Piketty tells us that we’re living in a new Belle Epoque — and he’s right, in some ways contemporary society feels more like that era than the cruder, more hypocritical American Gilded Age — and one thing extreme inequality brings is, yes, a courtesan class." In it, he linked to an Atlantic piece on "Seeking Arrangements," the dating site where men pay women for their company (yes, I know there's a word for that), titled "How Sugar Daddies Are Financing Higher Education," http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...ddies-are-financing-college-education/379533/

I find this depressing on a number of levels. On the one hand, I have nothing against sex work. On the other hand, mainstreaming it and making it seem like a sensible way to deal with the fact that higher education is gouging the next generation ... yowza. And I'm sure there are at least a few young women out there thinking this is their chance to live out their Fifty Shades of Grey romantic fantasy, which, again, not that there's anything wrong with that on the surface - you want a BDSM relationship, you get down with your bad self! It's more the significant potential for abuse that you get outside the pages of erotica that makes me nervous about this being held up to young women as just another way to bring in the Benjamins. Or as a thing where it's totes sensible to trade sex for luxury goods ... few of the ladies profiled in the piece seem to need the money, after all.

I don't have a clear-cut end-point here: if anything, I'm just curious to hear what other people think of the phenomenon. At this point, my bottom line is that while I don't think that societal disapproval has ever stopped people about engaging in whatever kinky practices they desired (and, if anything, has occasionally made them more dangerous for the vulnerable parties, regardless whether we're talking about the fact that prostitutes are rarely taken seriously when they report assault, to gay folk being blackmailed or blacklisted back in the day, on and on and on), there's something about the relentless (re)commodification of women's bodies that makes me nervous.

I feel like on every conceivable level, women's collective boundaries are being pushed - what, you think the mainstreaming of violence against women in pornography is indicative of some weird backlash against feminism? you're against a consensually monetized sexual relationship? you want to police surrogacy in foreign nations where the income disparities make it impossible for women to say "no?" PRUDE. Then again, I could actually just be having An Old Fashioned Moment. Where do you-all stand?

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Well, I have one friend who engaged in internet video camera work. It was not in person, so there was no real risk to her, but it was most definitely sex work. She was able to make a lot more money from home than she was at any of the retail jobs she could get. She did this while pursuing her undergrad degree. She didn't do it for long though, I think she had conflicting feelings about it and decided to stop.

The idea of it though, she made the same money for 30 minutes on camera that she would make working for 5 hours in a retail job. For a lot of women, men too, this is just worth it. I don't really think it's that different than when women used to just marry and be taken care of. It's a similar exchange, at least this isn't so permanent and a woman isn't legally trapped and bound to the man she's with.

So really I think it's been around all along, it just looks different. Just my opinion based on who I know and what they've done. I'm about 29 if that means anything for my age perspective.

 

[Circe]

Well, I have one friend who engaged in internet video camera work. It was not in person, so there was no real risk to her, but it was most definitely sex work. She was able to make a lot more money from home than she was at any of the retail jobs she could get. She did this while pursuing her undergrad degree. She didn't do it for long though, I think she had conflicting feelings about it and decided to stop.

The idea of it though, she made the same money for 30 minutes on camera that she would make working for 5 hours in a retail job. For a lot of women, men too, this is just worth it. I don't really think it's that different than when women used to just marry and be taken care of. It's a similar exchange, at least this isn't so permanent and a woman isn't legally trapped and bound to the man she's with.

So really I think it's been around all along, it just looks different. Just my opinion based on who I know and what they've done. I'm about 29 if that means anything for my age perspective.

See, and that makes perfect sense to me. Both of the underlined statements helped to crystalize something for me - thank you for that! - because it read exactly like something i was just reading about prostitution in 19th c. Britain. I think you're right, and despite the trappings of 3rd wave empowerment rhetoric you'll frequently get on these issues, when it comes right down to it ... it's still men being willing to pay a hell of a lot more money for sex than they are for most other things, creating the weird dual effect of lots of women being way more willing TO do those other things, since the paycheck comes with its own hidden cost in the form of contempt. (And, as an aside ... it is mostly women. Even when it's men, other men are still the end-consumers in a ridiculously high percentage, at least when it comes to the paid stuff.)

I think at the end of the day, my problem is way less with any individual woman who does the math and thinks, "yeah, for me, this is way better than anything else I have the time for," and more with the media presentation which inevitably focuses on women, laying the way for the continued success of the world's oldest profession.

Well, what about the guys paying for its' success? I think I've read 100 pieces about "sugar babies," and maybe about one on "sugar daddies." Similarly, a 1000 pieces about the issues women who work in **** must have ... almost none about the issues dudes who work in **** must have (and given some of the really violent stuff being mainstreamed in **** today, I for one would love a piece interviewing the men involved to ask them what the hell they're thinking), even fewer about what the men who consume the ****, hire the hookers, contract the cam girls, and keep the sugar babies. It keeps the focus one-sided, presenting women as whores (for better or worse), and men as either invisible or ... you know, men. Normal. Doesn't every guy pay for it?

I do find it interesting that it's apparently a lot easier to find women in these relationships to interview. Makes one wonder if the dynamic is starting to shift, at least a little ....

 

[arkieb1]

It really irritates me that the commentator and everyone else makes a number of judgement calls about the women but the 40, 50 and 60 year old guys that are married with families they are just doing what comes naturally to men with money (yes that was sarcasm) ie treating young women like a commodity and pretending they are attractive on some level for something other than their money.

I am not sure which is sadder women that feel they have no alternative other than to sell themselves to pay for "their education and their lifestyles" or men too vain to see that without the cash they would not be cast a second look by these women.

 

[ksinger]

Well, I'm a simple soul, and ancient, so chalk me up as an old-fashioned prude.

I find the whole idea of making people into commodities pretty distasteful, whether it is the person consuming said commodity doing it, or the person acting as one, doing the commodifying. I think it reduces people to something less than people. I also don't understand the lack of bodily boundaries. Heck, I came of age before the onset of AIDS, in those supposedly glory days of free love and nickle beer, and while I was hardly a prude, I was damn picky about who I trusted to root around in me, you know? I always knew the person first, for quite a while, and any "transactions" (ew) were free of monetary consideration, simply for the joy of being with someone I liked/loved and trusted. Nowadays, with the disease factor, I can't fathom taking such risks as being a modern-day Aspasia.

I also see normalizing "sex work" as just one more intrusion of market values into spheres where they really have no business, although I understand quite well that sex has always been coin. In spite of the reams written by women but especially men, trying to convince us all that that allowing all comers (no pun, I swear) access to one's body is something that all women would be thrilled to do if only there was no stigma, my spidey-sense is telling me otherwise. Sex with an innie is quite a different experience than sex with an outie and one only has to read men's perceptions of women (moist/hole/penetrated versus themselves as self-containted/dry/penatrator) to understand that. Not to mention that women bear the consequences of screw-ups far more. So methinks the cheerleaders may be protesting a bit too much.

Interesting topic to be sure. I have no clear-cut answers, not even for myself.
But I'm pretty sure sex for money should not be made old-hat.

Here's an interesting book that I read some time back that addresses the infiltration of market values into all areas of life. It doesn't address sex work, but it asks some pretty pointed questions about how we apply market values and the morality thereof - whether it has good or bad effect on society. I think you could apply ideas in the book to this topic.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Money-Cant-Buy-Markets/dp/0374203032

 

[JulieN]

Is the Krugman opinion linkable?

 

[ksinger]

And my musing has taken me down the road of....anyone keying in on the fact that these women supposedly eager to trade sex for money are all the children of privilige? Again. There are some interesting class angles here to discuss too...

 

[JulieN]

Capitalism: a race to the bottom.

 

[ksinger]

Capitalism: a race to the bottom.

Hey man, the Great And Glorious Hand of The Market directs all to the good of everone!

Hookers, blow, children as sex objects, and healthy kidneys and livers all around! Let the Law of Supply And Demand sort it out!

 

[distracts]

I'm not against sex work in theory. IN PRACTICE, however, it seems to be mainly a way for men to control vulnerable women. I think if the consumer and provider bases were not so grossly split on gender - if more women were also paying, and more men also offering up their bodies - it would not bother me nearly so much. Then I would feel like these were really decisions made by free individuals under no form of duress (including economic). But until women have the purchasing power and... cultural okayness... to want sex and pay for it, and until (straight) men regard it as a viable career choice for themselves, it will feel icky to me.

 

[Circe]

Is the Krugman opinion linkable?

Sure! I wasn't kidding about it being an opsicle, though ... I think the only link he included I didn't was one explaining the original Grand Horizontales.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/life-in-belle-epoque-america/#commentsContainer

 

[Gypsy]

I agree about the Gilded Age comments. The excesses I see now and days remind me of France before the revolution. Income inequality is getting worse and worse. And inevitably that means a re-adjustment period.

 

[partgypsy]

I guess I have a visceral negative reaction to **** and prostitution. Because I'm a woman and I have two girls, who will grow up in a world surrounded by men who are more likely to use ****, see prostitution as normal, etc. I don't see how that cannot affect these men views of women, if the main experience they have with women is see them perform sex acts. Sure there are the rare cases of women who have made it work for them (see Kim K) but in general, it does not improve the conditions of women or the overall gender relationship between men and women. So sure let's show the shiny cool rare instances that are consensual and to each their own and don't seem so harmful, when in truth in many parts of the world the women/children caught up in sex trade have no choice in the matter...

 

[distracts]

I guess to me it's not the commodification of sex that is the problem but the systemic inequality between the genders as it relates to this commodification. If that makes sense.

 

[packrat]

All I could think about while reading this thread was that we have a local lady who does it for a jar of pickles. Or olives, depending.

I have nothing constructive to add.

 

[iLander]

ETA: I should clarify that I don't think anyone on this board is saying any of the below. The speaker is the part of American society that does not respect women as equals to men.

Hey, we're not willing to pay women equal pay for equal work, but we can still pay them for sex.

They can make a little something extra on the side while they're making 70¢ for every man's dollar.

Why change?

And why would we offer mothers free childcare (like many other Western countries), full maternity leave, and all those other goodies, when they could be flashin' it for cash?

Let's just keep raising the cost of education, way beyond the pace of inflation, because those coeds look soooooo good.

It's okay, our insurance will pay for all the boner pills, and those slutty tramps can pay for their own damn birth control. Cause that's what Jesus said.



Sorry, just a little sarcasm from an old-school feminist.

There are so many societal problems with how America sees and treats women (madonna? sex object? madonna? sex object? can't decide!), I can't even begin to wrap my mind around it anymore. When the Equal Rights Amendment failed to pass, after 59 years of trying, I just gave up hope. I feel much better now.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Its funny to me that a number of you want to blame the men for this degrading life of the courtesan, and not to the woman herself. Personally, I think its more women who find it degrading than it is men. Many men wouldn't think twice about marrying a strip dancer or a working girl, let alone a higher class college co-ed. Women are afraid they will lose their men.

Wealthy men who have and want a relationship that has very little strings attached, are not in for sex alone. They want the company and something pretty on their arm. I think its just an arrangement that works for both, however long it lasts. I don't disapprove. I do however think it shows a disdain for men more than a disdain for themselves.

I was wondering when someone would bring up education costs. Out modern courtesan will come out of college with no loans, and be on her way.

I have no illusion that the women are living a life like in a movie, and I support, in theory, what she may choose. We live in a world with transactions all over our behavior. This is just not money for sex. The street walker does that.

I knew one person in my life who was a mistress to someone. She honestly liked him, but took his money because, as she said, he had plenty. She was schemer, and did work him. But, he did want the companionship, I think like many men, he believed she cared about him.

So, I won't judge people on this. Its their choice.


Annette

 

[JulieN]

ETA: I should clarify that I don't think anyone on this board is saying any of the below. The speaker is the part of American society that does not respect women as equals to men.

iLander, I think you'll be happier in this case if I pointed out that you missed that as sarcasm.

 

[LaraOnline]

Hi,

Its funny to me that a number of you want to blame the men for this degrading life of the courtesan, and not to the woman herself. Personally, I think its more women who find it degrading than it is men. Many men wouldn't think twice about marrying a strip dancer or a working girl, let alone a higher class college co-ed. Women are afraid they will lose their men.

Wealthy men who have and want a relationship that has very little strings attached, are not in for sex alone. They want the company and something pretty on their arm. I think its just an arrangement that works for both, however long it lasts. I don't disapprove. I do however think it shows a disdain for men more than a disdain for themselves.

I was wondering when someone would bring up education costs. Out modern courtesan will come out of college with no loans, and be on her way.

I have no illusion that the women are living a life like in a movie, and I support, in theory, what she may choose. We live in a world with transactions all over our behavior. This is just not money for sex. The street walker does that.

I knew one person in my life who was a mistress to someone. She honestly liked him, but took his money because, as she said, he had plenty. She was schemer, and did work him. But, he did want the companionship, I think like many men, he believed she cared about him.

So, I won't judge people on this. Its their choice.


Annette

Doesn't that sum it up though?

I think one important reason women dislike other women who 'work' men for sex is that a) it gives the rest of us a bad name
b) it disregards that other (older) women - notably a wife - has likely made a lot of sacrifices to help the man achieve to the point in his career where he is earning those biccies.
To see a young woman creaming off profit to waste on titty jobs and expensive f-me shoes kind of irritates the sensible and responsible amongst us!

 

[arkieb1]

Hi,

Its funny to me that a number of you want to blame the men for this degrading life of the courtesan, and not to the woman herself. Personally, I think its more women who find it degrading than it is men. Many men wouldn't think twice about marrying a strip dancer or a working girl, let alone a higher class college co-ed. Women are afraid they will lose their men.

Wealthy men who have and want a relationship that has very little strings attached, are not in for sex alone. They want the company and something pretty on their arm. I think its just an arrangement that works for both, however long it lasts. I don't disapprove. I do however think it shows a disdain for men more than a disdain for themselves.

I was wondering when someone would bring up education costs. Out modern courtesan will come out of college with no loans, and be on her way.

I have no illusion that the women are living a life like in a movie, and I support, in theory, what she may choose. We live in a world with transactions all over our behavior. This is just not money for sex. The street walker does that.

I knew one person in my life who was a mistress to someone. She honestly liked him, but took his money because, as she said, he had plenty. She was schemer, and did work him. But, he did want the companionship, I think like many men, he believed she cared about him.

So, I won't judge people on this. Its their choice.


Annette

Doesn't that sum it up though?

I think one important reason women dislike other women who 'work' men for sex is that a) it gives the rest of us a bad name
b) it disregards that other (older) women - notably a wife - has likely made a lot of sacrifices to help the man achieve to the point in his career where he is earning those biccies.
To see a young woman creaming off profit to waste on titty jobs and expensive f-me shoes kind of irritates the sensible and responsible amongst us!

I'd wager with you more than half the men seeking out 18 and 20 year olds are married. I'd guess more like 75% of them would be or were in a relationship and as your example proves the young women was a mistress suggesting the guy probably had a wife.

I feel sorry that the education system costs so much that people have to sell themselves in 1st world countries. I also feel sorry for the wives at home that have no clue what their dear husbands get up to with the 20 year olds.

When I was at University many moons ago a girl doing a masters degree in my class was a high class escort, she had a young son, no help from her family and that was how she paid for her child and her education. She was a smart, attractive and a nice person. I sincerely hope that she paid for what she needed and got out of the escort business because the sad thing is that when some of these beautiful young women get a taste of that type of life and the money some of them can earn they find it difficult to go to a regular job that pays way way less.... She told us great/fabulously funny stories about her clients but there was always a sadness about her that I cannot pinpoint - but it was there nevertheless.

 

[iLander]

ETA: I should clarify that I don't think anyone on this board is saying any of the below. The speaker is the part of American society that does not respect women as equals to men.

iLander, I think you'll be happier in this case if I pointed out that you missed that as sarcasm.

Yeah, probably. I just get so mad about the way women are treated in this country, that I fly into a rant at the slightest provocation.

Don't get me started about the CEO's making 400x the salary of the average worker (in the 80's it was 40x) which is fueling this new era of robber barons. If the ratio was still what it was in the 80's, this economy would be in good shape, and workers wouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck . . .

Women would still be selling their bodies (they always have) but the average woman would have GOOD options beyond that. There's something wrong with a society that overpays strippers, athletes and Kardashians, but unpays school teachers.

See? I have repressed rage, it takes almost nothing to get me started . . .

 

[packrat]

iLander, those things make me fly into a rage too. I'm with you.

 

[Polished]

I sometimes wonder about the psychological effects on women doing this type of work even after they stop. Does it keep impacting on their lives in some way. Cases where women have gone public with their former life after they have paid for their education or reformed heroin addicts usually raise for me more issues than they settle. One woman, who was highly educated, was very particular that her interviewer called her and others in this line of work sex workers rather than prostitutes. If you really felt fine about what you'd done surely you could take "prostitute" in your stride. She also worked now in the area of improving the rights of sex workers. Nothing at all wrong with this. I might be imagining things but I felt her response to her former life was to constantly find ways to gain control over it and win back power. It seemed that no matter what you did you'd be up against it.