Big Lies In Front of the Kids

[iLander]

This story bubbled up in my brain, thought I'd talk about it.

Several years ago, we had renters in a furnished apartment. They told us the leather couch was damaged (peeling and ripped in several places) when they moved in. We knew this to be a complete lie, since we were there a week before they moved in and the couch was perfect.

They reiterated this lie repeatedly in front of their kids, 2 boys age 10 and 12. They even swore that the realtor would verify their story (realtor agreed with us, it was perfect on move in).

Whopping lies, which their kids knew to be lies, repeated over and over.

I wonder what kind of long-term effect seeing mom and dad lie has on kids? I would think it would make them insecure at the very least.

What do you think?

 

[makemepretty]

I doubt it would have any lasting effect. Everyone lies, somehow, someway, sometime. EVERYONE.

While I try NOT to lie as a rule. I will admit that my kids were brought up to believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny and they turned out just fine. All those lies for all those years. Kids lie to not get into trouble. Ever have two kids fighting and have one admit they started it?

Watching their parents lie, while not cool at all, just taught them their parents are human and fallible and not very responsible. I can tell you I grew up in a home where my dad didn't think women were equal, that minorities were no better than animals and animals were disposable....I don't share those opinions at all. It's amazing how even children can know right from wrong, even if their parents don't set a good example.

 

[JewelFreak]

Seeing parents lie teaches children that honesty isn't necessary. If they watch parents lie specifically for their (the parents') gain, they also learn that honesty is for chumps. It wouldn't be long before they are trying it out themselves, on friends, teachers, neighbors, even their mother & father. I can't see insecurity in that, just two deadbeats raising two more.

It's not human & fallible. It's deceit.

Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny aren't what I'd call lies, Makemepretty. Giving a child a little magic to believe in is a gift -- at least it felt that way to me when I was little. Sure, you find out it's not true, but you already suspect that by the time you confirm it, so it's not a shock. For the rest of their lives, these kids know how to believe in magic if they wish -- that's ok.

--- Laurie

 

[msop04]

Seeing parents lie teaches children that honesty isn't necessary. If they watch parents lie specifically for their (the parents') gain, they also learn that honesty is for chumps. It wouldn't be long before they are trying it out themselves, on friends, teachers, neighbors, even their mother & father. I can't see insecurity in that, just two deadbeats raising two more.

It's not human & fallible. It's deceit.

--- Laurie

I agree with this 100%...

 

[MissGotRocks]

Children learn what they live. Simple as that. When they are dishonest with their parents as teenagers, who do you blame? The kids or the parents?

 

[yennyfire]

Seeing parents lie teaches children that honesty isn't necessary. If they watch parents lie specifically for their (the parents') gain, they also learn that honesty is for chumps. It wouldn't be long before they are trying it out themselves, on friends, teachers, neighbors, even their mother & father. I can't see insecurity in that, just two deadbeats raising two more.

It's not human & fallible. It's deceit.

Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny aren't what I'd call lies, Makemepretty. Giving a child a little magic to believe in is a gift -- at least it felt that way to me when I was little. Sure, you find out it's not true, but you already suspect that by the time you confirm it, so it's not a shock. For the rest of their lives, these kids know how to believe in magic if they wish -- that's ok.

--- Laurie

Spot on Laurie, as always. I feel sad for those boys. I'm sure they know that their parents lie to them (the kids) too when it suits them. I'd think it would erode their trust. I almost always tell my kids the truth (an example of when I fib to them would be when we overheard a very crude conversation two young women were having about the differences in the penises of their various partners. My son asked me what they were talking about and I just said I didn't know)....

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I remember the time my son, at age 6 caught me in a lie. It was summertime, I had been sick for a while and had to go get a blood test prescribed by my doctor. SO we went down to the drawing station and went into the lab, and I was just so overwhelmed I turned around and we left. When the husband got home he asked if I had gone to the lab for blood work. I said yes because technically I did, I just didn't stay to get it done. My kid then started to cry because he knew I was massaging the truth and I felt like shit So I ultimately apologized to the husband for lying and to the kid for putting him in a squicky situation and from then on resolved to never to do that t him again.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Seeing parents lie teaches children that honesty isn't necessary. If they watch parents lie specifically for their (the parents') gain, they also learn that honesty is for chumps. It wouldn't be long before they are trying it out themselves, on friends, teachers, neighbors, even their mother & father. I can't see insecurity in that, just two deadbeats raising two more.

It's not human & fallible. It's deceit.

--- Laurie

I agree with this 100%...

me, too

 

[iLander]

Yeah, I suspect this will bite the parents in the butt. The kids will start lying to them, and then trust will erode and the relationship will degrade.

I don't understand the casual approach to lying that people seem to have these days. I don't understand what started this or where it came from . . .

Used to be, people were proud of having integrity.

What happened to that?

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I cannot STAND lying! I am always far more angry at being lied to than whatever it is that was lied about. Hopefully my kids will learn this quickly. Of course there are specific situations, and I have and can be OK with withholding information at times. But flat out lying, no way.

It's a fine line we all have to walk at times but knowing how to do it right if a life skill like nothing else.

 

[missy]

Yeah, I agree with much of what was posted here. Lying is the worst thing someone can do to me because it erodes the trust we have built up in the relationship. Be it a friendship or a romantic relationship.

As Asscherhalo lover wrote the lie is (in 99% of the cases) worse than the actual thing someone is lying about. When we were little our parents told us we could come to them with any problem or concern or situation and as long as we don't lie about it we can work it out. That's all they asked of us-not to lie to them. And to this day I feel the same way.

No matter what problem you might have in your relationship once lying is a part of it how can you ever trust the person who is doing the lying again? It's a betrayal difficult to recover from IMO. This is one of the biggest "rules" if you can call it that for me. Don't lie to me. It tells me more about your character (talking about adults now not children) than anything else.

iLander, those parents who lied to you are doing their children a way bigger disservice than they could ever do to you by lying if you ask me. I feel sorry for those kids because most likely they will learn by example and grow up doing the same things their parents do/did. And teach their kids the same. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[JewelFreak]

I feel the same way about lying. It is the one thing that makes me very very angry. My parents drummed into us that if someone caught us lying once, they would never have a reason to believe anything we said after that. It's true -- I feel that way about people who are dishonest with me. Liars truly disgust me.

After I took some kind of personality test for an employer once, the woman who administered it said, "Ethics are very important to you, aren't they?" Not something you think specifically about, but she was right. It's a sad future the parents are teaching those two boys to make for themselves.

--- Laurie

 

[Circe]

For what it's worth, I think in some cases dishonest parents can have the opposite effect on their kids: call it the Alex P. Keaton Effect. My parents lied a lot when I was growing up - they were immigrants from Russia, so given the whole aura of secrecy thing that a lifetime in the shadow of the KGB will instill, there was a lot of obfuscation - and the result is that it makes me feel sick to lie. Someone above mentioned their belief that it instilled insecurity ... in a way, I guess that's true, because I like to be on the most solid ground possible in my dealings. So maybe there's hope for those kids after all!

 

[lambskin]

The parents missed out on a more important lesson to teach their kids-to take care of things you are responsible for or suffer the consequences.

 

[TC1987]

I wonder if they are like the weird insular families here: It's family against the world. Kids may have torn up the furniture, and that family is well aware of that fact. But parents don't want to pay for that sofa. So, parents take the us-against-you attitude, and the kids know the parents are telling a blatant lie. But it's "okay" to do that to the property owner because family is everything, and all outsiders are nothing except people to be used, so it's okay to lie and cheat the outsiders, just not your family. I won't name names, but there are people in my town who are notorious for that kind of thing. Lie, cheat, swindle, whatever they can get away with. All outsiders are marks, and only family counts.

eta: To clarify, the kids are in on the lie. They don't feel insecure, because they know exactly what is going on and the parents are teaching them. The parents may not lie to the kids at all. They may be a rock-solid insular family unit, just crooked as all-get-out. lol

 

[missy]

For what it's worth, I think in some cases dishonest parents can have the opposite effect on their kids: call it the Alex P. Keaton Effect. My parents lied a lot when I was growing up - they were immigrants from Russia, so given the whole aura of secrecy thing that a lifetime in the shadow of the KGB will instill, there was a lot of obfuscation - and the result is that it makes me feel sick to lie. Someone above mentioned their belief that it instilled insecurity ... in a way, I guess that's true, because I like to be on the most solid ground possible in my dealings. So maybe there's hope for those kids after all!

Good point Circe. There is hope for these kids and let's hope the Alex P. Keaton Effect happens here.

It's funny because you wrote it makes you sick to lie and that is exactly how I feel. When I even try a little white lie it makes me feel physically ill so I just don't attempt any lying. Weird how one can be conditioned that way. But I would rather be conditioned not to lie and feel sick if I attempt to than the other way.

 

[makemepretty]

I'd have to agree that irresponsible parents can make responsible kids. My parents still haven't grown up but I've always been very responsible even without having rules or a curfew ever. That's probably why I didn't see a big deal about parents lying in front of their children. I'd also agree that the kids know the parents are lying in order to benefit "the family" as a unit so they justify it that way.

A little off topic but I wish in school they'd have some relationship type of classes. Treat others how you'd want to be treated, honesty is a good thing, don't beat anyone or anything(animals, spouses, children). Sounds common sense but if you watch the news, it's not so common. I think a "love yourself even if others don't" lesson would be beneficial, suicide rates keep climbing in the neighboring town and it seems younger kids are killing themselves. It seems to me that people have lost coping mechanisms.

 

[iLander]

I've also been trying to figure out some other weird bits about these people:

---All the knives in the house were hidden in a towel very high up in a cabinet

---A dining room chair was broken to pieces and crudely reglued

--The doorknobs were all removed and the locking mechanisms removed, so none of the bedroom or bathroom doors could be locked.

--One of the bedrooms smelled strongly of urine. I thought it was their cat, but they claimed they had no cat. Even though they asked for permission to have a cat when they moved in. They said it they asked because they had considered getting a cat. Then I asked them why was there pee on the floor? They went mute. I hope it was a cat.

--Then I thought this was odd. To apply, they had to submit their tax returns. But the children were not listed as dependents. Wouldn't you think these people would take EVERY deduction?

And here's the kicker: the dad was a vice president for an international airline.

What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[Circe]

I'd have to agree that irresponsible parents can make responsible kids. My parents still haven't grown up but I've always been very responsible even without having rules or a curfew ever. That's probably why I didn't see a big deal about parents lying in front of their children. I'd also agree that the kids know the parents are lying in order to benefit "the family" as a unit so they justify it that way.

A little off topic but I wish in school they'd have some relationship type of classes. Treat others how you'd want to be treated, honesty is a good thing, don't beat anyone or anything(animals, spouses, children). Sounds common sense but if you watch the news, it's not so common. I think a "love yourself even if others don't" lesson would be beneficial, suicide rates keep climbing in the neighboring town and it seems younger kids are killing themselves. It seems to me that people have lost coping mechanisms.

I agree with this. It might sounds twee, but just sort of a "how to be emotionally healthy" intro might be useful for a surprising number of people. I was in my 30s before anybody explained the concept of emotional boundaries to me. I think for a lot of people who grow up in emotionally unhealthy/codependent/abusive family situations, it can come as a complete shock that other people aren't the same way, behind closed doors.

I genuinely didn't believe that happy, non-aggressive, unconflicted households existed until I met my husband's family. Mine may have been outliers in some things, but, hey, they didn't beat me, they weren't substance abusers, what was I complaining about? But their brand of emotional over-investment was still harmful: to this day, my parents still react like my making a decision they wouldn't make themselves is an actual betrayal. But my family was still on a continuum with most people I knew, where there was always some degree of instability ... don't know if we should chalk that up to my growing up in a largely immigrant population (lots and lots of clashing expectations there to aggravate the underlying fault lines), growing up poor (poverty ain't no great shakes for stability either), or my generation, or what. But it would definitely have been a boon to my peer group to have had somebody lay out the framework of mental health early on ....

 

[Munchkin]

Those extra tidbits of info have me suspecting mental illness in a (or multiple) family member(s). Given that the knives were high, I wonder if at least one of the boys was prone to violence or suicidal ideation. That also explains the inability for anyone to be in a locked room. One of the boys could have destroyed the couch and chair and the parent was lying to hide the issue. Inappropriate urination and/or defecation are behaviors seen in some psychiatric illnesses.

A scarier option is that a parent was preventing any privacy for other family members.

Either way, thank your lucky stars that they are gone and that is not your life!

 

[VRBeauty]

But their brand of emotional over-investment was still harmful: to this day, my parents still react like my making a decision they wouldn't make themselves is an actual betrayal.

Circe - my parents were that way when I was younger, and a bit of that persisted into (my) adulthood. I attribute it to the way both of them were raised - basically, both of them were raised with the model that it's the parent's responsibility to raise kids who are essentially like them. Individualism and questioning were not encouraged. My parents adopted a more "American" outlook after we moved to the States, but of course some of those attitudes remained even after my parents consciously adopted new ones... and left their imprint on me.

Sorry about the diversion - back to the topic at hand. Ilander, I found the scene you describe to be very chilling.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I've also been trying to figure out some other weird bits about these people:

---All the knives in the house were hidden in a towel very high up in a cabinet

---A dining room chair was broken to pieces and crudely reglued

--The doorknobs were all removed and the locking mechanisms removed, so none of the bedroom or bathroom doors could be locked.

--One of the bedrooms smelled strongly of urine. I thought it was their cat, but they claimed they had no cat. Even though they asked for permission to have a cat when they moved in. They said it they asked because they had considered getting a cat. Then I asked them why was there pee on the floor? They went mute. I hope it was a cat.

--Then I thought this was odd. To apply, they had to submit their tax returns. But the children were not listed as dependents. Wouldn't you think these people would take EVERY deduction?

And here's the kicker: the dad was a vice president for an international airline.

What the hell is wrong with people?

My first thought is that they were abusing those children. All of the things you mentioned sound suspicious. Maybe they weren't even their own children.

 

[ForteKitty]

Did the rooms smell like cat urine or human urine? Cat urine is pretty distinct. I'd be afraid they were abusing the children and they might have been the ones who peed on the floor.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I was with you until the story about the knives/urine. That sounds so similar to a family we know (loosely from back in my churchgoing days) whose eldest son suffers from a mental illness. I always thought schizophrenia but it is some kind of DNA abnormality I can't possibly beging to understand. Their life more resembles a sort of survival bubble they all live in to keep from something triggering the kid. He destroys things and then hides them constantly. To the point where you can't leave valuables out if they visit. He hurts animals as well, which terrifies me for many reasons, mostly because eventually he will do it to a person if he hasn't already. One day he was followed after someone saw him take something, in broad daylight, and he flat out denied it. Even when confronted with irrefutable evidence he simply shrugged and said "Wasn't me." He had a meltdown later that night, his mother screaming "I told you not to ask him about that!"

Also he is off the charts intelligent, which is all the more nervewracking.

 

[Gypsy]

But their brand of emotional over-investment was still harmful: to this day, my parents still react like my making a decision they wouldn't make themselves is an actual betrayal.

Circe - my parents were that way when I was younger, and a bit of that persisted into (my) adulthood. I attribute it to the way both of them were raised - basically, both of them were raised with the model that it's the parent's responsibility to raise kids who are essentially like them. Individualism and questioning were not encouraged. My parents adopted a more "American" outlook after we moved to the States, but of course some of those attitudes remained even after my parents consciously adopted new ones... and left their imprint on me.

Sorry about the diversion - back to the topic at hand.

Circe, my mom does the same thing. They are immigrants as well.

iLander... lying is a skill. Like any other... you have to be taught how.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

People do horrible things in front of their kids. Yes, social modeling is a powerful thing. I am guessing they put down a security deposit. I would put my energy in making sure I could legally keep that. Of course inform proper authorities if you suspect abuse. Otherwise, let it go.

 

[iLander]

Yeah, something pretty creepy was going on there. I really don't like to think about it.

ForteKitty: I'm pretty sure it was cat urine. It was so strong, we couldn't believe people could sleep in that room, and then to deny it? Bizarre.

 

[JewelFreak]

Something creepy indeed, iLander. The knives makes me shudder. I guess you didn't see bruises on anyone, or didn't see the family often enough to notice, or you would've said so. All of it put together definitely makes you fear there was some violence going on. Do you know where they moved to? Wondering if giving the authorities there a hint to keep an eye on them would be a good idea.

--- Laurie

 

[iLander]

Something creepy indeed, iLander. The knives makes me shudder. I guess you didn't see bruises on anyone, or didn't see the family often enough to notice, or you would've said so. All of it put together definitely makes you fear there was some violence going on. Do you know where they moved to? Wondering if giving the authorities there a hint to keep an eye on them would be a good idea.

--- Laurie

I just met the family that one time, in person. I don't know where they went, and frankly, good riddance. I'm tired, and getting older, and I just can't save them all anymore. People are just too weird, and it's everywhere.