We should raise the minimum wages, but by how much?

[Dancing Fire]

IMO... I think $15 an hour for a fast food worker is ridiculous but $10 an hour sounds fair to me.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/09/04/fast-food-workers-to-strike-in-campaign-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour/

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx

 

[blackprophet]

The questions isn't so much "is $15/h too much for a fast food worker"
But "what wage allows someone to be able to live above the poverty line"

The answer to that question is very regional specific.
I know in most places living on $10/h full time employment would still mean scraping by (and lets not even talk about part time, which most fast food jobs are).

Debate is about making the minimum wage a "living wage", which is a movement gaining ground in the past few years. I think its because of the fact that people who lost a job during the recession have been forced to make a living in these types of jobs, even temporarily. Which has shed a light on the issue.

To a certain extent I support raising the minimum wage. Within reason. Whether that is $10 or $15, leave that up to the experts. And the particular conditions of each region.

 

[Dancing Fire]

But if we raise the minimum wage too high it can put a lot of businesses out of business.

 

[cflutist]

Imo, leave the minimum wage where it is and put out a tip jar. That should solve the problem
That's exactly what they do on cruise ships, pay the foreign workers a low wage and expect the passengers
to make up the difference in tips.

Hey I know what it's like to live near or at the poverty line.
My first job paid $2.11 an hour. I made so little that my employer
did not withhold any taxes from my paycheck, nor did I have to file a tax return.

My parents threw all 3 of us kids out at age 18 and we had to work while going to school
and put ourselves through college. I had many nights of peanut butter toast and canned corn for dinner.
I survived and had to work hard to improve myself and my living conditions.

There is so much more a sense of "entitlement" today. I have 4 different neighbors who have
adult children living at home. Some have lost their jobs but others have never grown up and learned
how to manage money. Of course everyone of them has the latest smartphone and multiple electronic toys
while my hubby still uses an old flip-phone.

 

[amc80]

That's exactly what they do on cruise ships, pay the foreign workers a low wage and expect the passengers
to make up the difference in tips.

Yep! The worst service I've ever had on a cruise was on the NCL Pride of Aloha, which was US flagged. This meant that it had to follow US labor laws and most of the staff were American. Awful, awful service.

 

[cflutist]

That's exactly what they do on cruise ships, pay the foreign workers a low wage and expect the passengers
to make up the difference in tips.

Yep! The worst service I've ever had on a cruise was on the NCL Pride of Aloha, which was US flagged. This meant that it had to follow US labor laws and most of the staff were American. Awful, awful service.

Yes, I read about that on cruisecritic.com (the PS of cruising). I can say that the foreign workers who cleaned our cabin on the 20+ Princess cruises I have sailed on have been extremely hardworking and were trying very hard to please us. So yes they got
the "suggested" gratuity and then some. I have talked with many of them, they are extremely happy to have those jobs (some even away from their spouses and kids), and many send money home to their families. Compare that to the "entitlement" mentality of fast food workers demanding more pay right now. I know that when I was making minimum wage myself in CA, I was extremely happy to have that job while attending and paying for college.

 

[zoebartlett]

I can't put a dollar amount to it, but I think the minimum wage should be increased enough to lessen the number of working poor we have in America.

 

[Gypsy]

Costco and several other companies have already made a change to tie their wages to the MIT cost of living index.

I think this makes more sense than just a flat increase across the board. A "living wage" in Wisconsin is very different than one in San Francisco. And I think it just makes sense to recognize that. I do think in someplaces it should be as high as $15 an hour (San Fran). But I don't think that's fair across the board. And yes, some states do impose their own minimums above the federal. But some do not. So I think having the Federal wage tied to a Cost of Living Index makes the most sense.

But, this is a political issue. What makes the most sense is often the first casualty of politics.

 

[amc80]

That's exactly what they do on cruise ships, pay the foreign workers a low wage and expect the passengers
to make up the difference in tips.

Yep! The worst service I've ever had on a cruise was on the NCL Pride of Aloha, which was US flagged. This meant that it had to follow US labor laws and most of the staff were American. Awful, awful service.

Yes, I read about that on cruisecritic.com (the PS of cruising). I can say that the foreign workers who cleaned our cabin on the 20+ Princess cruises I have sailed on have been extremely hardworking and were trying very hard to please us. So yes they got
the "suggested" gratuity and then some. I have talked with many of them, they are extremely happy to have those jobs (some even away from their spouses and kids), and many send money home to their families. Compare that to the "entitlement" mentality of fast food workers demanding more pay right now. I know that when I was making minimum wage myself in CA, I was extremely happy to have that job while attending and paying for college.

I'm on CC as well 99% of the workers I've come across on non-US flagged ships have been very happy and eager to do their jobs well. They know you by name and remember little details about you to make you feel special.

 

[HopeDream]

I'm not sure that foreign workers on cruise ships is an adequate argument for a low minimum wage.

If a foreign worker is from let's say the Philippines (for the sake of argument).
#1 No one is going to take a low-paying (by US standards) high overtime job far away form their families, unless it is worth it. For the job to be worth it, the job must pay more that equivalent employment opportunities job opportunities at home (or have sufficiently attractive fringe benefits such as seeing the world), so cruise ship jobs must pay higher than minimum wage in the Philippines. Relatively speaking, cruise ship employees must be doing well.
(keep in mind that "home" is likely much cheaper than the US, so wages low by US standards could be high by "home" standards)

#2 Cruise ships provide employees with free or highly subsidized room and board, so most of the take-home pay check is essentially disposable income. Minimum wage US equivalent - If McDonalds could guarantee you $10/hr of disposable income (plus tips) and pay your food and shelter costs (that is, cover or highly subsidize the cost of living) It would probably be considered a pretty good job.

#3 Hospitality jobs suck. They are awful. Everyone should spend at least a year working in the hospitality industry to learn how to be a civil and gracious guest. If you have employees sticking with a cruddy job for years (many foreign cruise ship workers are multi-year veterans), the pay+food and shelter bonuses+tips to BS ratio has to be worth it (or they would find a job elsewhere).

Given this context, I think the foreign cruise ship worker example is a great illustration for setting wages to cover the cost of living and then some.

If you give people spending money they will keep the economy humming along nicely.

 

[packrat]

Seeeee now, I kinda think you could raise the minimum wage all you want, and the big muckety mucks that run the companies who are making millions of dollars hand over fist will cry. And stomp their feet. Aaaaand then raise their prices. It will hurt the small companies, the mom and pop shops.

A CEO making 10,000 times one of his workers=the problem. A CEO w/corporate paid benefits that are commensurate with the cost of running a small country=the problem. A CEO whose yearly bonus would take a big chunk out of the national deficit=the problem.

GREED=the problem.

 

[azstonie]

Excellent article in the September 15 issue of The New Yorker on wages for fast food workers.

The vanishing working middle class subsidizes through food stamps and hospital emergency rooms these franchise owners and corporations who pay minimum wage/no health insurance to their workers. It's a cycle of poverty and it destroys families.

It's a disgrace.

The reason I got well paying jobs with excellent benefits/pensions was because of unions---the musicians union, the teachers' union, and the Alaska State Employees Union. I just left Mayo Clinic/Hospital after 9 years with a vested pension (which rumor has it will not be offered in future), no union there but the company's former history of taking care of all its employees demanded that.

Because Americans have forgotten their history, we are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I believe pay has to do with skills of individuals. The more skills you have, the more pay. Some jobs were always considered part-time for either teens, college students, women wanting part-time work, and perhaps as a source of income when you lost a job. It is beneficial for the society to have those jobs available for people to get their feet wet in a learning experience. These jobs were never meant
to earn a living. Flipping burgers?. stocking items, doing automatic check-outs? Again, people demanding something, not understanding that these aren't meant to be something you and a family can live on.

In the 50's my mother made 5.00 an hr as a salesperson for a dept store, part-time. Her friends did as well. Children were usually in high school and now a woman could work--a little. None of them were the bread winners. They helped the customer more, they treated you better and you even sought out that same salesperson who had helped you before. You don't make much more now, but do you do the same work? I don't think so. The consumer gets lower prices now, so we can buy more stuff and we benefit. The emphasis has changed. --low prices. Can't have things both ways.

As gypsy pointed out states pay differently. In fact, scarcity of workers in some McDonalds caused them to up wages pretty substantially in some states.

More importantly, we probably should encourage those employers to offer to pay for schools to improve positions in life., I have worked for many places like that. An education benefit may be worth it.

Annette

 

[packrat]

$5/hour in the 50's? Holy cow. My first job was 4.85 and that was in the early 90's.

ETA I don't think the prices are lower now than they were in the 50's for the consumer. Or am I mis reading?

 

[blackprophet]

$5/hr in 1959 adjusted for inflation would be over $40/hr.
$4.98/hr in 1990 adjusted would be almost $8/hr.

Not saying that we should be paying McJobs $40/hr, but the difference in cost of living should be acknowledged. And tha'ts regionally as well. Someone living on 10/hr in NYC and someone living on that in Kansas City are going to have very different circumstances. One size def doesn't fit all.

 

[ksinger]

Hi,

I believe pay has to do with skills of individuals. The more skills you have, the more pay. Some jobs were always considered part-time for either teens, college students, women wanting part-time work, and perhaps as a source of income when you lost a job. It is beneficial for the society to have those jobs available for people to get their feet wet in a learning experience. These jobs were never meant
to earn a living. Flipping burgers?. stocking items, doing automatic check-outs? Again, people demanding something, not understanding that these aren't meant to be something you and a family can live on.

In the 50's my mother made 5.00 an hr as a salesperson for a dept store, part-time. Her friends did as well. Children were usually in high school and now a woman could work--a little. None of them were the bread winners. They helped the customer more, they treated you better and you even sought out that same salesperson who had helped you before. You don't make much more now, but do you do the same work? I don't think so. The consumer gets lower prices now, so we can buy more stuff and we benefit. The emphasis has changed. --low prices. Can't have things both ways.

As gypsy pointed out states pay differently. In fact, scarcity of workers in some McDonalds caused them to up wages pretty substantially in some states.

More importantly, we probably should encourage those employers to offer to pay for schools to improve positions in life., I have worked for many places like that. An education benefit may be worth it.

Annette

Yes, and in the 50's you (a male anyway) could make a decent living without additional higher ed or a degree, on basically a highschool education, by working in industries that we have ALLOWED to be offshored and which we are never getting back. People keep ignoring that in their comparisons.

Everyone says educationeducation, but have you seen how many of the highly educated are currently working slinging lattes at Starbucks and living in mom and dad's basement trying to pay off just the usual amount of student loans? Having a larger pool of skilled/educated/trained workers clearly does NOT automagically mean that the jobs to utilize them will appear. Besides, those kids think they should be paid a living wage. So cheeky. Heck, if business could automate every last dang thing, they would, and have been moving that way for years. It used to be the accepted wisdom that loss of jobs in one area would be offset by creation of jobs in others, but that doesn't seem to be panning out anymore. Well, OK, yeah it does, it's just that the other area is...India, or China.

I will trot out the stat like I always do: we are now at the highest percentage of the population having a bachelor's or higher, than we have ever been in our history, and that is 33.6% in 2013. That means that in those halcyon 50's that everyone seems to hold up as some golden age (they were NOT) there were even less trained/college grads - between a paltry 7.7% and 11%, and yet somehow, the preponderance of highschool grads who were likely never going to college, managed to find decently paying jobs and go to the doctor and have children. That's not because they were so much better than the highschool grads of today as much as the jobs were actually there. Union jobs. With benefits.

Clearly the 50's are very VERY dead.

You say that people don't understand that service jobs were never meant to be permanent. I would counter that yes they do, but that the conditions of employment have changed drastically in this country and now the businesses that have been living large off a business model that assumes a endless stream of non-unionized low-paid short-term workers and a perpetually low minimum wage, are going to have to do a bit of adjusting of their own. And it will have to be rammed down their throats in the form of a minimum wage increase, because corporate greed will ensure that it is not done voluntarily - just as greed has ensured that real wages have been decreasing since the 70's.

Basically, we are moving from a growth economy to a mature, maintenence economy, and it is going to be very painful. Right now, mainly for the working poor, but eventually for everyone, as social unrest increases. People know this in their bones, and after decades of anomalous high growth, they think that that level of growth is normal, is our RIGHT, when it really never was, and was not sustainable for the long haul. The thought that maybe it isn't, scares the willies out of them and IMO it's what is driving this almost compulsive looking back to a previous era, and a pervasive feeling that this country is on its way down, that doors are shutting. It's why a very vocal contingent keeps trying to repeal civil rights and gender equality. Gotta get back to those 50's dontcha know.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_104.20.asp

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I never meant to glorify the 50's. I only meant to say what I did. My mother who never did graduate grade school, was an immigrant, still made 5.0 an hr. Your points are well taken that the jobs have disappeared, but increasing the minimum wage , to be a living wage for a family , at those jobs that can't support it, doesn't solve the problem of creating new jobs.

There are jobs out there. Technology, for one example, fights to increase immigration for some workers . Now thats a good lobby,.
Better we train our own here for those same jobs.

Yes, I'm one of those that sees the US in decline. If we cannot create the jobs, our standard of living will go down. But it isn't rational to pay people a living wage doing things that don't require any skills. Your way is always giving people, much of it unearned.


Annette

Tell Apple to get back those jobs or you won't buy their iphone. The 50s were good.

 

[woofmama]

As a mom & pop small business owner, I'll weigh in on this. My reality is that if I'm forced to pay $15 per hour to my employee's I'll have less staff and work a lot more hours myself. I simply can't afford it. I employ 5 hourly workers right now. They're paid $8.50 - $12.00 per hour. My husband kept his full time union blue collar job so we would have health insurance. For the first three years in business I worked seven days a week and had occasional help from family. We struggled but we made it to the six year mark. I can finally enjoy a few of the finer things in life. My payroll has to stay in the 10% of gross sales range. That's retail 101. to go higher will kill my profit. So mandatory wage increase isn't fair to me, now is it?

I left a six figure sales job to open my business and risked everything in my mid 40s to realize my dream and become an entrepreneur.
We could have lost everything. I did all of my funding myself and did not feel entitled to anything. Win or lose it was on my dime.

There are trades that people can learn which pay in the $15 + range, yes many have disappeared & the unions aren't what they used to be. Work ethics are almost non existent. I grew up in a solid middle class family, in a very blue collar neighborhood. Very few of my friends went to college, most went into the trades. Some did very well for themselves. Others didn't. But they understood that hard work was the answer because they saw their grandparents and parents working hard.

My very intelligent nephew is 25 and a paramedic. He makes $15 per hour and saves peoples lives. He paid for the EMT program followed by the paramedic course. He worked extremely hard. Now folks want that for flipping burgers. Bullshit!

 

[Dancing Fire]

woofmama

I'd agree with you 101%.. and if Mickey D's is willing to pay me $15 an hr I will be flipping burgers for them tomorrow.