Indented Natural

[apapap3]

Hi All. I found a great deal on a F VS1 1.50ct, but it appears to have a large indented natural based on the plot. Everything else is perfect. Should I stay away? Would it be worth ordering to see in person?

Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

Hi apapap,

You wouldn't necessarily need to stay away from this stone, but I would personally want an independent expert/ gemologist to inspect this natural to make sure it isn't a potential durability issue but it's unlikely. I tend to err on the side of caution with these features, but that's me. Can you post all the proportions please so we can take a look for you to evaluate this diamond? Is it with an online vendor? Can you get any images such as Idealscope?

 

[RandG]

Interesting stone! Are you seeing a noticeable price difference for this stone, compared to other FVS stones of the same size?

 

[Winks_Elf]

Even though I am a trade member, I do not consider myself to be an "expert" when it comes to diamonds as I still have much to learn. With that caveat out of the way, I would ask the vendor or seller. Every stone that I personally have seen with an indented natural and a cert had the indented natural notated on the cert. I have a feeling that might not be an indented natural.

 

[WinkHPD]

Even though I am a trade member, I do not consider myself to be an "expert" when it comes to diamonds as I still have much to learn. With that caveat out of the way, I would ask the vendor or seller. Every stone that I personally have seen with an indented natural and a cert had the indented natural notated on the cert. I have a feeling that might not be an indented natural.

Melissa, my elf, is learning well and in this case I believe she is correct.

That drawing on the diagram shows where there is a natural. A natural is a small piece of the original skin of the diamond that was not removed during the polishing process. In this case, since the diamond finished at 1.50 cts to have done so would have taken the weight below the "magic" 1.50 ct weight, resulting in the diamond being worth much less than it is at 1.50 cts, even with the natural.

What you have is a picture of where the diamond still has a bit of the original skin, and although it might look like it is indented, it is not. Think of it more as showing you a picture of a slice of orange with a bit of the peel still on it. The peel does not indent into the slice, but if you only saw the outline, you might think that it did.

Wink

 

[apapap3]

Thanks! I'm working on getting some images now. They're going to send a top down view and also from the pavillion side where the natural is.

Here are the full specs. I know the depth is a little high but the price is awesome.

Price $14,874
Carat weight 1.53
Cut Ideal
Color F
Clarity VS1
Length/width ratio 1.01
Depth % 62.5%
Table % 57.0%
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick
Culet None
Fluorescence Medium Blue
Measurements 7.35 x 7.30 x 4.58 mm

HCA 1.5

 

[Lorelei]

Thanks for the above info, but the crown and pavilion angles are needed too please, those will be on the report.

 

[apapap3]

Here you go:

Crown 35.5
Pavillion 40.6

 

[Lorelei]

Here you go:

Crown 35.5
Pavillion 40.6

Thank you! From the info we have, I would say this diamond is definitely worth further investigation, as you are doing, for potential purchase.

I forgot to ask earlier and I should have checked, is this diamond intended for an engagement ring?

 

[apapap3]

Yes. Its for an engagement ring which will just be a regular solitaire. Once I have pictures of the stone I'll post them. Maybe I could get your opinion on the appearance?

 

[John P]

Every stone that I personally have seen with an indented natural and a cert had the indented natural notated on the cert.

Hi Melissa. I can only think it's noted. The posted snip doesn't include the "Key To Symbols." I'm seeing crystals/pinpoints and a needle or tiny feather in the crown plot. The pavilion inclusion is indeed plotted like an indented natural.

A natural is a small piece of the original skin of the diamond that was not removed during the polishing process. In this case, since the diamond finished at 1.50 cts to have done so would have taken the weight below the "magic" 1.50 ct weight, resulting in the diamond being worth much less than it is at 1.50 cts, even with the natural. What you have is a picture of where the diamond still has a bit of the original skin, and although it might look like it is indented, it is not.

Hi Wink. With all due respect I must disagree, due to the way it's plotted. "Indented" uses two colors (red and black) to denote a characteristic which is both external and internal. I am seeing two lines here, so my interpretation is that it's an indented natural, not an external natural. If so, it will be original rough skin as you describe, but its geometry dips slightly beneath the diamond's surface.

The main question for me: What is the order of inclusions-listed? I see at least four characteristics. Honestly, VS1 is safe regardless, but if the indented natural appears near the bottom of the list it's pretty negligible.

 

[WinkHPD]

Every stone that I personally have seen with an indented natural and a cert had the indented natural notated on the cert.

Hi Melissa. I can only think it's noted. The posted snip doesn't include the "Key To Symbols." I'm seeing crystals/pinpoints and a needle or tiny feather in the crown plot. The pavilion inclusion is indeed plotted like an indented natural.

A natural is a small piece of the original skin of the diamond that was not removed during the polishing process. In this case, since the diamond finished at 1.50 cts to have done so would have taken the weight below the "magic" 1.50 ct weight, resulting in the diamond being worth much less than it is at 1.50 cts, even with the natural. What you have is a picture of where the diamond still has a bit of the original skin, and although it might look like it is indented, it is not.

Hi Wink. With all due respect I must disagree, due to the way it's plotted. "Indented" uses two colors (red and black) to denote a characteristic which is both external and internal. I am seeing two lines here, so my interpretation is that it's an indented natural, not an external natural. If so, it will be original rough skin as you describe, but its geometry dips slightly beneath the diamond's surface.

The main question for me: What is the order of inclusions-listed? I see at least four characteristics. Honestly, VS1 is safe regardless, but if the indented natural appears near the bottom of the list it's pretty negligible.

Sigh, you may be right. Dang I hate working off a black and white image of a colored plot and without the full cert being shown for some reason. It will be interesting to see what the OP says about the list of actual inclusions. Melissa has been learning about diamonds these past few months and I think she is doing a great job of it. Now she will know that I am fallible and be heart broken.

Or she will just have a good laugh and learn even more.

Thank you for your insight. As always, I too continue to learn, no matter how much other people think I know.

Wink

 

[cflutist]

For those who are interested in plotting symbols:
This taken from GIA Diamond Grading course materials in late 1980s.

 

[Lorelei]

Yes. Its for an engagement ring which will just be a regular solitaire. Once I have pictures of the stone I'll post them. Maybe I could get your opinion on the appearance?

Of course, I will be pleased to help!

 

[Lorelei]

For those who are interested in plotting symbols:

Thanks for those Cflutist, adding them to my stash of useful info.

 

[apapap3]

Thank you all . Here's the link to the full report:

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=6157431842&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

I checked and it does list the indented natural last (Had no idea that they were in any kind of order). This is making me think now that it's not so bad.

 

[Lorelei]

Thank you all . Here's the link to the full report:

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=6157431842&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

I checked and it does list the indented natural last (Had no idea that they were in any kind of order). This is making me think now that it's not so bad.

It could well be fine, as I mentioned earlier, it's unlikely to be an issue in VS1, I just tend to err on the side of caution. The proportions look good, the stone is facing up a little small for its weight, a 1.5 ct round should measure around 7.5mm, this falls slightly short but it's not necessarily a deal breaker and depending on price. Yes, grade making inclusions are listed in order of significance. See if you can get an Idealscope image of this diamond, that will tell us more.

 

[RandG]

Thanks! I'm working on getting some images now. They're going to send a top down view and also from the pavillion side where the natural is.

Here are the full specs. I know the depth is a little high but the price is awesome.

Price $14,874
Carat weight 1.53
Cut Ideal
Color F
Clarity VS1
Length/width ratio 1.01
Depth % 62.5%
Table % 57.0%
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick
Culet None
Fluorescence Medium Blue
Measurements 7.35 x 7.30 x 4.58 mm

HCA 1.5

 

[apapap3]

Hi All,

Just got a picture of this stone with the indented natural. Based on the location it looks like it might be pretty well hidden under the girdle.

Thoughts?

 

[OoohShiny]

What's a 'Bearded Girdle'?

I'm having all sorts of bizarre images in my head!

 

[leyhuong]

Thank you John Pollard and Wink for sharing your knowledge which allows me to learn something new today!

Thank you apapap3 for sharing the photo to illustrate what it means as an indented natural. It doesn't look bad at all!

I'd just want to add that, based on my reading, cutting and leaving an 'indented natural' when necessary is a technique showing sign of master workmanship. It is science marrying excellent execution. In this case, however, the diamond is rather deep with thick gridle. I am sure that this is not cut for the best light performance but the maximum weight retention.

 

[WinkHPD]

What's a 'Bearded Girdle'?

I'm having all sorts of bizarre images in my head!

LOL! A bearded girdle is NOT something you see at the circus or the county fair every summer.

In the old days, (here I go again with the old days...) one diamond was set to spin on a spindle and another was held at the end of a long piece of wood held under the bruter's arm and "bruted against that spinning diamond to chip off tiny pieces of the diamond until the shape was round. If the bruter was too brutal the diamond ended up with hair like fractures inside the girdle that looked like a teenager's scraggly beard.


This image was found on a search for "diamond bruting" and came from renaissancejewelers.com. I do not know where they got the image.

Here is a picture of the bearded girdle. This picture was found in a search for "bearded girdle" and came from luckygrace.com.. Again, I have no idea where they got the image.



And now, my friend, you do not have to go to the circus to see the bearded girdle...

Wink

 

[OoohShiny]

haha

Thank you for taking the time to find and post all that info for me and everyone else, Wink, it's very kind!

 

[FancyIntense]

Thank you all . Here's the link to the full report:

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=6157431842&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

I checked and it does list the indented natural last (Had no idea that they were in any kind of order). This is making me think now that it's not so bad.

It could well be fine, as I mentioned earlier, it's unlikely to be an issue in VS1, I just tend to err on the side of caution. The proportions look good, the stone is facing up a little small for its weight, a 1.5 ct round should measure around 7.5mm, this falls slightly short but it's not necessarily a deal breaker and depending on price. Yes, grade making inclusions are listed in order of significance. See if you can get an Idealscope image of this diamond, that will tell us more.

I have to disagree with saying a 1.50 ct. should measure 7.5 mm on average.

Do a diamond search on here and see how many mm a 1.50 ct. is on average. You won't find many 7.5 mm. Unless they have a depth of 59 and a table of 60.

The size appears average for a 1.53. Regardless of the depth. Don't you think?

What did the HCA say about spread? I wanted to check, but you didn't include crown angle and pavilion angle so I could check.

 

[FancyIntense]

I see the report link now

HCA says very good spread, that sounds like an average spread to me?