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AGS0 stone with a not so great Ideal-scope

dazedandc0nfused

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Are AGS0 stones supposed to be great light performers? I'm not an expert but the below ideal-scope doesn't look great.
x_-_copy.jpg
 

diamondseeker2006

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This just goes to show that some AGS 0 stones are better than others. Very smart to get idealscope images on any round brilliant. If I am paying the premium for an AGS ideal cut stone, I want a better idealscope image than that one. However, I am sure it is still a very nice diamond in the overall scheme of things.
 

Karl_K

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can you post the numbers and or the report please?
 

Karl_K

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dazedandc0nfused|1406785608|3723595 said:
Sure Karl.

AGS 104070836007 1.026c
interesting.
Light Performance: 0
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Table: 58.7%
Crown Angle: 35.3
Crown Height: 14.6%
Girdle: Faceted, 1.7% to 3.8%
Pavilion Angle: 41.1
Pavilion Depth: 43.6%
Star Length: 51%
Lower Girdle Length: 78%
Total Depth: 61.6%
Culet: Pointed

attached is the report.
 

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  • 104070836007-pldqr.pdf
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Karl_K

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Its not a combo you would expect to get 0 but it looks like the heavens aligned.
I am not a fan of these odd ags0 there it too much chance of scanner error and problems with the grading system itself giving it a higher grade than it deserved.

Its not a train wreck and would actually likely be pretty in person but it is debatable if it belongs among the best.
 

WinkHPD

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There is a tendency to think that all AGS 0 cut grade diamonds are going to be incredible, and the truth is that they are all pretty darn nice in order to qualify for that highly sought after cut grade.

However, as with all grading systems, there will be those at the bottom of the grade, desperately pulling their chins over the bar and screaming, "Look Mom! I made it, I am an AGS 0" Then there will be those very select few at the pinnacle of the AGS 0 cut grade looking down on them and sniffing, "Wannabees!"

Guess what, the "look mom's" are generally cheaper than the ones at the pinnacle.

I once sent three diamonds to a jeweler in Texas to show a potential client who was comparing them to two diamonds from a well known vendor. He called after they were already boxed and ready to ship to say he really thought it was a waste of time to even see them since they were more expensive than the ones from (insert name of 300 pound gorilla in the diamond on line market here).

I explained that since he did not have to risk one penny to do so, that he was silly not to look at the diamonds. He agreed to look, but assured me that he was not going to spend the extra money.

When he went in to see the jeweler, the jeweler put all five diamonds on a slotted tray in random order and said nothing to the client about which diamond was which. When the client asked, he was told to let his eyes do the shopping. He quickly eliminated the two diamonds that he had brought to the party as being somehow not as bright as the others and then made his choice from the three remaining diamonds.

When I got to talk with him later that day he said he had not expected to see any difference in the cut quality since all five diamonds were AGS 0's and that he was both surprised and disappointed that the differences were so obvious. He even admitted to having a sick feeling in his gut when he so quickly identified the two weak sisters that they were the diamonds he had brought to the party, which was in fact only revealed to him after he had made his final selection. (The selection process went something like this. "Hmm, this one and that one just don't look as good as the rest of the diamonds." Then after those two were removed from the tray, "Man, I really like that one best of all."

"That one" happened to be a 1.35ct that was bigger than the 1.10 and the 1.11 and $500 cheaper than either one of them due to having an SI1 clarity. It was the one he did not even want to see, since a VS2 was his lowest acceptable grade.

The whole point, is that you REALLY MUST SEE the diamonds to know if you like them or not. Pretty sure if you put that "just made it" diamond at the top of this thread on a tray with others that are at the top of the grade, you would see a small difference.It would just not have that "IT" factor that makes a super diamond look super.

Now, put that same "just made it" diamond in a tray against normal jewelry store cuts and it would be the hands down winner. So often it is the company you keep that makes you look good, or bad. Since we PriceScopers tend to prefer to like the elite cut diamonds, this might easily NOT make the cut, while still having that "elite" cut grade compared to a normal well cut diamond.

Just my thoughts...

Wink
 

Gypsy

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Great post Wink!
 

WinkHPD

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Gypsy|1406832998|3723901 said:
Great post Wink!

Thanks Gypsy. I did not mean to scare away any further conversation on what I thought was a great topic...

Wink
 

Laila619

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Wow, not a fan of those numbers at all. A 41.1 pav angle with that steep of a crown and a large-ish table? Nope.

That is why I do not buy a diamond just because it's supposedly an AGS0 for light performance. I buy based on the angles/numbers, and it doesn't matter to me whether it's AGS or GIA.
 

dazedandc0nfused

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Wink,

I agree with you wholly that seeing the stones in person is a huge factor and numbers/images can't tell the stone's entire story but unfortunately it wasn't an option for me to purchase stones and return them if I did not like them. And ever since I discovered PS a couple years ago, I learned that shopping online is the best bet in terms of "options". I was not a fan of buying jewelry online in years past.

But I feel that even bottom of the barrel AGS0's should have a better IS than that one in the OP. My mission is to do my due diligence on PS in order to find the best stone that I can based on the tools and information that are available to me such as the IS image, ASET, advice from members, etc. Otherwise, I'd just walk into big chain jewelry store and pick the shiniest diamond in my price range. If I saw that IS image in the OP without knowing any other information such as it's 0 rating, I would most likely pass on it without a second thought. I'd like to throw in that I wasn't a cut elitist until I started lurking PS.

I would just recommend that everyone request a IS image even for AGS0 stones.

Here's another one I ran into with a IS that I wouldn't have expected.

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071516004-PLDQRH.PDF
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3178625.htm#
 

Laila619

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dazedandc0nfused|1406930963|3724652 said:
Wink,

I agree with you wholly that seeing the stones in person is a huge factor and numbers/images can't tell the stone's entire story but unfortunately it wasn't an option for me to purchase stones and return them if I did not like them. And ever since I discovered PS a couple years ago, I learned that shopping online is the best bet in terms of "options". I was not a fan of buying jewelry online in years past.

But I feel that even bottom of the barrel AGS0's should have a better IS than that one in the OP. My mission is to do my due diligence on PS in order to find the best stone that I can based on the tools and information that are available to me such as the IS image, ASET, advice from members, etc. Otherwise, I'd just walk into big chain jewelry store and pick the shiniest diamond in my price range. If I saw that IS image in the OP without knowing any other information such as it's 0 rating, I would most likely pass on it without a second thought. I'd like to throw in that I wasn't a cut elitist until I started lurking PS.

I would just recommend that everyone request a IS image even for AGS0 stones.

Here's another one I ran into with a IS that I wouldn't have expected.

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071516004-PLDQRH.PDF
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3178625.htm#

Wow, can you say leaky?! Yuck!
 

diamondseeker2006

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When shopping online without the ability to see multiple stones, I use the 34-35 crown angle and 40.6-41.0 pavilion angle as my parameters, and it does help eliminate stones like the two we have seen in this thread. That is why it amazes me people order diamonds every day from the 300 lb gorilla with no images at all!!!!!
 

Gypsy

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apacherose

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Gypsy|1406832998|3723901 said:
Great post Wink!

+1- thanks- it really puts all of this fine nuance into real life context.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Gypsy|1406945989|3724750 said:
dazedandc0nfused|1406930963|3724652 said:


In the last few months I've been seeing more and more stones at WF, especially in the ES line, that have this issue. AGS0 but under-performing idealscope. I feel that WF has relaxed their criteria too far and it makes me very wary when selecting stones from them for others.
Hi Gypsy,
Thank you for the opportunity to comment. I think the outliers that have been posted demonstrate, as Wink explained, that there is a range of light performance even in the top category (AGS 0). Within that space there are Ideals, hearts and arrows ideals, and super ideals. We are so accustomed to looking at LP images of super ideals here that stones at the lower end of ideal look pretty bad.

I think these examples are informative in a couple of ways. First, in the case of the WF stone, you can have hearts and arrows precision in an AGS Ideal and still have some light performance issues. That is, AGS 0 plus H&A does not equal super ideal. And second, the value of a meticulously vetted super ideal is not just a matter of "branding". It is real.

Regarding our standards, we have never relaxed them. Our expert selection category requires two things of rounds: The diamonds must have the highest cut grade from either AGS or GIA (Triple Zero or Triple EX respectively), and they must have a distinct (if not perfect) hearts and arrows patterning. More info on our ES category is found here: http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/what-are-expert-selection-diamonds.htm

The complete qualifications and specifications of our super ideal brand can be found here: http://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

It is true that a high percentage of diamonds in our ES category are closer to the top of the ideal range than the stone called out. But there have always been and will always be those that barely make the grade. By providing all the analytics and LP images it is possible for our customers (and those that assist them) to make fine judgements about where any diamond we offer falls along the continuum of our categorization system.
 
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